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Title: 9/11 for Dummies
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Published: Aug 1, 2010
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Post Date: 2010-08-01 09:57:39 by Eric Stratton
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What I would suggest is to start a thread on the subject of 911 coincidences and explain in the header essay what you are looking for i.e., "coincidences" that are not arcane and that can be communicated simply to raw public.
Poster Comment: Per OI's suggestion, that is what I've undertaken. I have come to the conclusion that the final nails into the coffin of our Republic are being conducted with neocons holding the hammer, willfully and gleefully as our Republik more than slowly becomes a totalitarian state on steroids. I have also come to the unfortunate conclusion that it is primarily for lack of serious personal investigation, willful negligence and ignorance in essence, as the reasons why they believe the official Fairy Tale. They've never seriously looked into the matter, only superficially, and they've been driven by how their political "heroes" in the GOP have responded to the "twoofers;" Lameblow, Hammity, Palin, Junior, Cheney, etc., etc. Granted, now Hussein is in office and they are blaming his cadre of people for merely continuing on in the BuchCo. legacy, but nevertheless, it is driven primarily by support for "national security," which we all here realize is really "federal government and NWO elite security," and which is all spun off of this notion that there are terrorists lurking around every street corner waiting to blow us all up when if that were even remotely true it'd have been done a thousand times already since 9/11. Instead, it's only happened a statistically insignificant number of times. It's clear that they're never going to spend as much time researching this as we all do here. After all, they have socials and far more important things to attend to and investments to take care of so that they can all retire when they're 50-years old and play golf five days a week until they die and therefore cannot be inconvenienced to actually consider why they may be lucky to have a set of clubs in five years and access to a course. So what I thought I would do is attempt to piece together a list of between 20 and 50 items that can be read within say a half-hour and that when considered individually really give cause for people to wonder about it all. 9/11 that is. But that when taken collectively, make them only ask "how can that all be if the Fairy Tale is actually true?" Obviously no one can force another to look, but what can be done is to make the top 20-50 points very easy to access and point out and ingest within a short period of time. This should be a "Reader's Digest" Short-list version if you will. Do I think that this is going to be the difference? No. I think that our Republic is toast in a major way regardless with much pain and suffering on the immediate horizon. But I also think that there's a very small window, and ever diminishing one, wherein which if all goes perfectly, perhaps there is at least a degree of hope, and God willing. If anyone has seen exactly this, please post the link. I have not. I have seen numerous lists that have many items, often "arcane" ones as OI states above. I know that there are also thousands of data points as well, hence the effort. If these points have blatant video evidence or irrefutable eye witness testimony from indisputable sources it would be good. Otherwise, simple logical "impossibilities" are also good. They should include the points that are the "biggest bang for the buck." I also know that many "financial coincidences" also fit the bill. I thought we could brainstorm this together. I will keep a "top-50" list, and anyone else can feel free to do the same obviously. But I thought a concentrated thread wherein only such data points are included and discussion related to them. It would be good to limit the thread to only that to avoid unnecessary clutter in a thread that will probably end up being quite large. Thoughts? Already been done? (Where?)
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#211. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, Original_Intent, All (#205)
Well lookie here, the original news reports stated that Hanjour didn't show up on the flight manifest since he might not have had a ticket.... From The Washington Post But, I already told you in an earlier post: I don't care about the Washington Post article, often newspapers reports are based on misinterpretation.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Which is a good thing because, as far as I know, you can't prove a negative. One of the morons who used to post on LP made the claim years ago that Osama bin Forgotten had been killed in a cave with a daisy cutter bomb. I told him to prove he was dead since he made the claim. He told me to prove he wasn't and that idiot never could be convinced that neither I nor anyone else could prove a negative and that as the one who posited the claim it was incumbent upon him to prove it.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I don't care about the Washington Post article, often newspapers reports are based on misinterpretation. And I don't care what some character called buckeroo has to say, I find the Washington Post more credible than you and your government handlers.
Jimmy Carter, big a liar as he is, is more credible than buck.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. ? Here is another pdf of Hanjour (based on the FBI)... eat your heart. By the way, Hanjour's helpers were one way or another indicted; many of whom admitted GUILTY.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Talk about a perfect yet obvious setup. If a real person had done what Hanjour is said to have done, he at least would have done one or both of two things; 1) Left a note or a video informing the world of what he did and why he did it. The "box cutters" and the "four color diagrams of a 757 instrument panel" are just a bit much. In reality, he would have either made it difficult for law enforcment to find out who he was, OR announced that he was in fact the hijacker, and would have explained why he and his pals did it. Is this document authentic, or was it provided by a writer?
You have a serious problem, FL. You deny hardcore evidence EVEN when there were indictments of and about Hanjour's accomplices. Many of those indictments went to federal court. And many of those same indictments, the defendants pleaded GUILTY. EDIT: HERE IS A LIST OF ACCOMPLICES: Faisal Michael Al Salmi Phoenix, Az. Accused of giving false statements to the FBI, claiming he did not know hijacker Hani Hanjour, however the FBI claims to have several pieces of evidence to the contrary; Also lied to FBI saying he had not spoken to Rayed Mohammed Abdullah, an associate of Hanjour. Both cases of lieing, claimed the FBI, impeded the investigation into the 9/11 hijackers. Al Salmi was convicted, served 34 days plus time served, and the Justice Department has requested he be deported. Semi Osman Seattle, WA. Alleged to have attended a Seattle mosque where a plan to build a terrorist training camp was hatched (the mosque no longer exists), the camp to be built in Oregon. Osman pleaded guilty to having a firearm with an obliterated serial number. He is reported to be a material witness and being held while he cooperates with authorities, reportedly targeting London, England cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, an alleged Al Qaeda recruiter. James Ujaama Denver, CO. Attended the same mosque in Seattle where a plot was allegedly hateched to create a terrorist training camp in Oregon, is being held as a material witness targeting ondon, England cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, an alleged Al Qaeda recruiter. Ghassan Dahduli Rchardson, TX. Palestinian leader of the Islamic Association for Palestine, which Israel says is a front for the terrorist group Hamas. He is alleged to have identified as an associate of Osama Bin Laden and another man, Wadih el Hage convicted of connections to the bombings of U.S. Embassies in Africa. Dahduli was arrested and deported to Jordon where he was released a few weeks later. Atallah Fuad Khoury Houston, TX Allegedly bragged to a rental car clerk that he had a new pilots license and to "watch the news". In November 2001, He plead guilty and was convicted of possessing a gun illegally and lieing on the gun dealer from about his citizenship status. Mohammed Jaweed Azmath Ft. Worth, TX Police arrested Azmath during a random drug search on 9/12/01, indicted in Jan, 2002 on charges of selling credit cards and identification cards to an unamed third conspirator. Has pleaded not guilty Ayub Ali Khan Ft. Worth, TX Police arrested Khan during a random drug search on 9/12/01, indicted in Jan, 2002 on charges of selling credit cards and identification cards to an unamed third conspirator. Plead not guilty Hussein al-Attas Norman, OK. One of three students arrested at U of Oklahoma, alleged associate of Zacarias Moussaoui who was arrested in August in Minnesota while seeking training to pilot commercial airliners, following the pattern of the 9/11 terrorists. The justice deparment claims al-Attas was a roomate of Moussaoui. Mohammad Yaseen Haider Norman, OK. President of the U of Oklahoma Pakistan Student Association was a neighbor of Moussaoui, charged with immigration violations. Mukkaram Ali Norman, OK. One of three students arrested at U of Oklahoma, alleged associate of Zacarias Moussaoui who was arrested in August in Minnesota while seeking training to pilot commercial airliners, following the pattern of the 9/11 terrorists. The justice deparment claims al-Attas was a roomate of Moussaoui. Adel F. Badri Warrensburg, MO. Arrested on bank fraud charges, allegedly cashing forged checks totaling $10,000, and was a student pilot, plea bargained to bank fraud and convicted, thought to be cooperating with federal authorities. Youssef Hmimssa Cedar Rapids, Iowa Arrested in September of 2001 on fraud and misuse of visa and other documents charges. Lived under an assumed name, Michael Saisa, indicted in Detroit when his immigration documents were found on terrorists suspects arested there. While investigations continue, Hmimssa is being held on the document charges. Zacarias Moussaoui Eagan, Minnesota Accused of conspiring with Osama Bin Laden and the 19 9/11 hijackers for the 9/11 attacks. Moussaoui is a Moroccan with French Citizenship. Moussaoui is alleged to have received funds from a financier central to the 9/11 plot and also trained at an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. Moussaoui had attended but not completed flight training in May of 2001. Moussaoui was originally arrested on immigration charges a month before the 9/11 attacks when his flight instructor (at a different school) became suspicious of the odd training requests. Moussaoui's trail is due to begin at the end of September, 2002. Ollie Salem Kahlan Al-Marri West Peoria, Illinois AlMarri arrested in connection with telephone credit cards that belonged to Mustafa Ahmed al-Hisawi, a suspected cash distributor to 9/11 hijackers. Charged with a number of counts of credit card fraud. Nabil Al-Marabh Justice, Illinois Arrested September 18, 2001 on charges he was part of a financial cash flow and support ring for 9/11 terrorists Ahmed Alghamdi and Satam Al Sugami. Involved in the investigation of Marabh is the U.S. Customs Service and the FBI. Omar Shishani Detroit, Michigan Arrested in July of 2002, at the Detroit Metro Aiport, carrying $12 million of conterfeit cashier's checks. Shishani is a Chechnyan with Jordanian documents. He has plead not guilty to possession of counterfeit securities and smuggling charges. He remains in jail while investigations continue. Karim Koubriti Detroit, Michigan Arrested a few days after 9/11 for fraud and misuse of various immigration documents (See Youssef Hmimssa). Arresting officials were alarmed by airport drawings in his possession. Terrorism charges have since been dropped and he faces trial only on the immigration charges. Ahmed Hannan Detroit, Michigan Arrested a few days after 9/11 for fraud and misuse of various immigration documents (See Youssef Hmimssa). Arresting officials were alarmed by airport drawings in his possession. Terrorism charges have since been dropped and he faces trial only on the immigration charges. Vincente Pierre Roanoke, Virginia Convicted in December of 2001, on weapons charges and making false statements, after indictment a few days after 9/11/01. Alleged member of terrorist group al-Fuqra seeking to "purify Islam through violence". Traci Upshur Roanoke, Virgina Convicted in December of 2001, on weapons charges and making false statements, after indictment a few days after 9/11/01. Alleged member of terrorist group al-Fuqra seeking to "purify Islam through violence". Bilal Adullah Ben Benu Roanoke, Virginia Charged with illegally transporting ammunctionfor AK-47 automatic rifles. Alleged member of terrorist group al-Fuqra seeking to "purify Islam through violence". Mohammed Osman Idris Arlington, Virginia Idris and Mohammed El-Yacoubi were stopped by authorities while trying to fly to Jerusalm in December 2001, and found to be carrying a letter which indicated they were about to conduct suicide attacks in Israel. Idris is charged with lying to a Grand Jury and is being held pending investigation of ties to terrorist groups. Mohammed El-Yacoubi Fairfax, Virginia Mohammed El-Yacoubi and Mohammad Osman Idris were stopped by authorities while trying to fly to Jerusalm in December 2001, and found to be carrying a letter which indicated they were about to conduct suicide attacks in Israel. El-Yaciybu is being held pending investigation of ties to terrorist groups. Nabil Sarama Orlando, Florida Palestinian arrested a few days after 9/11, found near a pay phone used to make bomb threats. Charged with misuse or fraud involving immigration and identification documents. Sarama is well known in the immigration database, moving in and out of the country numerous times using Palestinian Authority, Israeli, or Jordanian passports. Abdel Rahman Omar Tawfiq Alfauru Arlington, Virginia Charged by FBI allegedly participating in a fake identification ring, documents associated with 9/11 hijacker Hani Hanjour. Agus Budima Arlington, Virginia Indoneisan National charged in November 2001 of helping Mohamad Bin Nasser Belfas -- a contact of Osam Bin Laden -- to falsely obtain a Virginia driver's license. Plead guilty to document fraud charges. Budiman is alleged to be a contact of 9/11 ring leader and hijacker Mohamed Atta. Budiman's visa shows he arrived from Germany in 2000. An associate, Belfas, is still at large. Budima has not been charged as a terrorist. Mohamed Abdi Alexandria, Virginia Arrested nearly two weeks after 9/11/01, Abdi pleaded guilty to forging a signature on a housing subsidy check, and sentenced to four months in prison. Authorities were led to Abdi by a map with his misspelled name and phone number on a Washington, D.C. map found in 9/11 hijacker Nawaf Alhazmi's car parked at Dulles Airport. Abdi has not been charged with terrorist offenses. Kenys Galicia Arlington, Virginia Sentened to a year in jail for assisting two hijackers in obtaining false Virginia documents. Authorities however, say he had no prior knowlege of the acts the hijackers were going to commit. Luis Martinez-Flores Arlington, Virginia Sentened to almost a year in jail for assisting two hijackers in obtaining false Virginia documents. Authorities however, say he had no prior knowlege of the acts the hijackers were going to commit. Herbet Villalobos Arlington, Virginia Sentened to almost a year in jail for assisting two hijackers in obtaining false Virginia documents. Authorities however, say he had no prior knowlege of the acts the hijackers were going to commit. Victor Lopez-Flores Arlington, Virginia Sentened to almost a year in jail for assisting two hijackers in obtaining false Virginia documents. Authorities however, say he had no prior knowlege of the acts the hijackers were going to commit. Hhalid al-Draibi Washington, D.C. Detained near Dulles International Airport on 9/11. Search revealed licensees from eight states, flight manuals for small aircraft. However, authorities did not press for terrorist charges. Draibi was sentenced to four months in jail and ordered to be deporated at release. Rasmi Subhi Salah al Shannaq Baltimore, Maryland Jordanian arrested for overstaying his visa, then indicted for obtaininga counterfeit and illegaly obtained visa from the embassy in Doha, Qatar. The nvestigation includes some 70 other people who used false identification from Qatar to enter the U.S. and possible U.S. Embassy at Qatar employees participation. Mohammad Pervez Jersey City, New Jersey Arrested a few days after 9/11/01, harged with lying to an FBI agent about checks he wrote and deposited. Pervez lived with two Ft. Worth, TX. suspects (see Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan), as Pervez was found living at their Jersey CIty address Mustafa Kilfat Elizabeth, New Jersey Among a group of alleged co-conspirators in the 9/11 attacks (1 of 3) taken into custody on September 13, 2001 -- This suspect was carrying one way ticket to Syria and large amounts of cash -- charged with credit card fraud, and carrying a false Greek passport. No terrorist charges have been filed. Ahmad Kilfat Elizabeth, New Jersey Among a group of alleged co-conspirators in the 9/11 attacks (2 of 3) taken into custody on September 13, 2001 -- This suspect was carrying one way ticket to Syria and large amounts of cash -- charged with credit card fraud, but has not been charged with terrorist activities. Mohammed Mahmous Al Raqqad Elizabeth, New Jersey Among a group of alleged co-conspirators in the 9/11 attacks 3 of 3) taken into custody on September 13, 2001 -- This suspect was carrying one way ticket to Syria and large amounts of cash. He has not been charged with any offense. Abdallah Higazy New York, NY Egyptian charged in January 2002 of making false statements to investigators -- denying knowlege of radio found in his hotel room, but later cleared when another hotel guest claimed the radio, Higazy was released. Khalid Sharaf- Alsubiani New York, NY Arrested in October in New York, paid cash for flight lessons which he did not complete (1999) and failed to appear in court on minor charges in North Carolina and Georgia. Also attended flight school in Texas. Shafal A. Mosed Lackawanna, NY Charged with providing material support to terrorists, could spend 15 years in federal prison. Arrested on 9/14/02. Suspected of training at the al-Farouq training camp in Afghanistan. Faysal H. Galab Lackawanna, NY Charged with providing material support to terrorists, could spend 15 years in federal prison. Arrested on 9/14/02. Suspected of training at the al-Farouq training camp in Afghanistan. Yahya Goba Lackawanna, NY Charged with providing material support to terrorists, could spend 15 years in federal prison. Arrested on 9/14/02. Suspected of training at the al-Farouq training camp in Afghanistan. Yasein A. Taher Lackawanna, NY Charged with providing material support to terrorists, could spend 15 years in federal prison. Arrested on 9/14/02. Suspected of training at the al-Farouq training camp in Afghanistan. Sahim A. Alwan Lackawanna, NY Charged with providing material support to terrorists, could spend 15 years in federal prison. Arrested on 9/14/02. Suspected of training at the al-Farouq training camp in Afghanistan. Richard Reid Boston, Massachusetts a.k.a. Abdel Rahim, arrested in December 2001 when he tried to set his shoes on fire on an aircraft between Paris to Miami, plane diverted to Logan Airport and Reid turned over to authorities. Passengers responded to stewardess who requested help in subduing Reid. Subsequently Reid was indicted on nine counts of various charges from explosives to specific terrorist activites including attempted destruction of a mass transportation vehicle, although a later judge ruled, amazingly, that an airliner is not a vehicle of mass transportation. There is also an alleged contact between Reid and Zacarias Moussaoui (also listed in this table). Mohamed Hussein Dorchester, Massachusetts The Hussein` brothers operated the Barakaat North America Inc. offices, Dorchester Massachusetts, charged with operating an unlicensed Dubai based money transfer service with other offices in Seattle, WA; Minneapolis,, MN. and Columbus, Ohio. Federal authorities claim part of the fee charged for wire transfers was diverted to use by Osama Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda network. Liban Hussein Dorchester, Massachusetts The Hussein brothers operated the Barakaat North America Inc. offices, Dorchester Massachusetts, charged with operating an unlicensed Dubai based money transfer service with other offices in Seattle, WA; Minneapolis,, MN. and Columbus, Ohio. Federal authorities claim part of the fee charged for wire transfers was diverted to use by Osama Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda network. "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
As far as the flight manifest, where is it? The Washington Post apparently was given a different manifest which didn't list Hanjour. Which one was the real one? I've seen the pictures of Hanjour, and I've seen the airport images of someone who is alleged to be him. To me, they definitely look like two different people. You'll notice the hairlines are different, and the person in the bottom has a wider girth. In fact, Hanjour's license photo doesn't look much like his passport photo; Are these actually THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE maybe?
What hardcore evidence? Do you have an official record of his fingerprints? Do his official fingerprints match what he's allegedly handled? Is there any video of him boarding the aircraft? Has his DNA been located at the crash site, and if so, what lab has determined that? Hell, it looks like there are THREE different Hani Hanjours, judging from the images on the net presented as true images of him.
I provided the AA77 manifest. You do the research, pal. You are just squeaking out of your own corner.... because you can't research your own BS.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
You provided an ALLEGED manifest, which is different than the one reviewed by the Washington Post. Has the Post ever issued a retraction of their story?
Nope... FACTUAL and from American Airlines. As I said, I don't care what WP says. Your reference material is based on irresponsible reporting.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Does it really matter what buck has produced or not produced? Didn't ALL of Hanjours/Hanjoors flight instructors say he was a piss-poor pilot and that he could barely fly a Cessna? That being the case who but a government shill or a brain-dead moron would claim that he could do stunts with a commercial airliner that actual stunt pilots would be hard pressed to do in stunt planes?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. What makes you think it came from American Airlines? Some guy's word on the Internet?
Of course Hanjour couldn't have flown a 757 from Ohio to Washington, then flown it 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph after pulling a few precision turns to descend to the right flight path. Thing is, there are different stories as to what angle the plane descended from, so it's still unclear if there were more than one aircraft involved in the attack, one perhaps a real airliner, and the other a high speed drone carrying some sort of missile. But yes, you're right, Hanjour didn't have the ability to fly any sort of jet, never mind a Boeing 757.
I suspect his owners told him that.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Per Rule #19 of "25 Rules of Disinformation." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT: HERE IS A LIST OF ACCOMPLICES: HAHAHAHAHA. Looks like our Tw00fers will be wanting new trials for the dozen Arabs pleading guilty and going to prison to aiding and abetting the hijackers. TOO MUCH
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you're trying to say we need to believe everything the TV says, or what YOU say, otherwise we're "spreading disinfo", right?
Looks like our Tw00fers will be wanting new trials for the dozen Arabs pleading guilty and going to prison to aiding and abetting the hijackers. TOO MUCH So what of the "hijackers" who are still alive and well? Will you be urging them to be brought to justice, since they somehow survived the air crashes?
That's all you do here is wave your arms and repeat the same crap over and over again. I WAS considering whatever "evidence" there is out there, and so far it doesn't look like the Hani Hanjour in the color photo is the same person as the "Hani Hanjour" at Dulles International Airport. There IS no record of him actually boarding the plane is there. And the Washington Post obviously DID see a different manifest than what is out there on the Internet, since Hanjour's name wasn't on it.
Unfortunately this is just another side show obfuscation argument. It is well known that if US INS was operating strictly by the rules in 2001, none of the Arab hijackers would have ever made it into the country. Ditto for the 2001 Israeli "moving company employees," "zoomcopter sales people," and "art students" who were operating undercover for the Mossad trying to figure out ways to manipulate and penetrate the US system. Because of routinely subpar work by the INS, there were many ways for many different agencies and ad hoc conspiracies to trick the system including: Having a "John Smith" name which many other people also have, being able to mis appropriate someone else's identity, being able to manufacture a false identity, having confusion about translation from Arabic to English for example "Nur" or "Noor" equaling the same Arabic name but beng 2 separate names or people in the US computers, etc. In other words you have no proof that anybody actually did survive who was the same person positively identified as the hijacker. The Saudi government, after first denying it had some of the hijackers as its citizens, eventually made a public admission that the identities of the 911 hijcakers were correct, and the Saudi families had been notified. The House of Saud can admit facts however unflattering better than you can.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My postings - and buck's even more so - have specific facts backed by hundreds of pages of specific documentation. Yours have allegations and attempts to pick apart minutiae of the postings either of us cites, which eventually can be summarized as "I don't want to believe that, this is how it should have or did happen because that's what appeals to me."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are either woefully misinformed, or quite MISINFORMING... Revealed: the men with stolen identities [UK Telegraph] Your "facts" many times are NOT facts, simply allegations, along with a highly flawed account of why and how the attacks the took place, oftentimes based upon improbabilities and impossible events.. Hanjour could not fly a simple propeller powered airplane. He never flew a jet aircraft. Yet you want people to believe he defeated the laws of aerodynamics by flying a Boeing 757 jumbo feet 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph. You must think people are pretty stupid.
It's quite a telling indicator of desparation to keep selectively quoting the same people who explicitly say he was more than qualified to be a hijacker not interested in surviving. I understand that's all you have left. And he didn't have to. He flew simulators which according to the FAA are valid substitutes and allow you to become fully prepared for a type certification check ride. You don't know jack $hit about the laws of aerodynamics and you never have demonstrated knowledge of even one detail. It has been me who introduced the concept of ground effect on these threads, and you have misinterpreted that concept into oblivion without understanding it in the least. I have repeately told you it is possible to figure out what a passenger aircraft can and can't do by using a simulator to test maneuvers. The response from you has been (((((crickets)))). Nothing. You're full of it and fighting a rear guard retreat as you get debunked on one item "Hanjour was never licensed ever" to another "Hanjour's 1/2 G turn 46 fps descent was a fighter pilot maneuver." Pathetic and attempting to save face after demonstrating you know nothing, and can not support any explanation that's coherent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're doing a good job, FL. Fighting lies with truth. A noble cause.
Wrong. He never flew a jet aircraft of any type, and did NOT do well on the 737 simulator he was paying to play with. He often skipped class, didn't do his homework, and totally sucked in terms of basic flight skills. He could no more fly a Boeing 757 than the average person off the street could with no experience at all.
Hanjour could not fly a simple propeller powered airplane. The rest is YOUR statement, not mine, so don't try to quote what YOUR saying and imply it's me saying it. Hanjour got a license for a single engine airplane and a multi engine airplane. Yet he could barely understand or speak English, where in order to obtain a FAA pilot's license, a person is required to speak and understand English. Right there is a huge red flag indicating there was some fraud involved in the issuance of his license. Secondly, several of his instructors contacted the FAA to report he had NO skills required of a person with that type of license, and thought the license was fraudulent. It's been proven to you 20 times these past several weeks, with sourced quotes from the various instructors. Yet you act as if none of that is true, and that you're the virtuous one here fighting "lies", where it is YOUR "facts" which are either outright lies or flagrant misrepresentations, such as cherry picking a quote from a person who didn't even know what happened at the Pentagon. You choose to cherry pick statements by the same people who explicitly said Hanjour was completely capable of flying an aircraft from Point A to Point B then crashing the plane into Point B. There were not "people" who said anything of the sort. The one person whose quote you cherry picked didn't even know that Hanjour didn't "crash" the plane, he flew it from Ohio to Washington allegedly, performed several high speed precision turns while descending, leveled off at treetop level at 400 mph, then preceeded to the Pentagon wall, a mile away, while accelerating to 530 mph, apparently gifted with superhuman abilitiy in order to counteract the ever increasing lift caused by ground effect. Then instead of the plane climbing due to the increased lift caused by increased speed and increased ground effect, it descended to 20 feet off the ground and flew into the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall at its ground floor, miraculously without scraping the Pentagon lawn up one bit. Yeah right, ANYONE can do that, even one who couldn't fly a single plane in a circle around an airport. It's quite a telling indicator of desparation to keep selectively quoting the same people who explicitly say he was more than qualified to be a hijacker not interested in surviving. I understand that's all you have left. All you have left is to ignore the facts, act as if they don't exist, and make up some of your own as you go.
You, the widely known shill and forum bloviator, knows more than an aeronautical engineer and airline pilot according to you, yet you think ground effect is what makes airplanes fly, or at least that's the impression you give. Here's that article again, since you obviously ignored it the last 10 times I posted it to you... From The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training Nila Sagadevan is an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft. [Mindfully.org note: Specifications for Boeing 757 and Cessna 172 are from Wikipedia. See other drawing below] There are some who maintain that the mythical 9/11 hijackers, although proven to be too incompetent to fly a little Cessna 172, had acquired the impressive skills that enabled them to fly airliners by training in flight simulators. What follows is an attempt to bury this myth once and for all, because I've heard this ludicrous explanation bandied about, at nauseam, on the Internet and the TV networks" "invariably by people who know nothing substantive about flight simulators, flying, or even airplanes. A common misconception non-pilots have about simulators is how "easy" it is to operate them. They are indeed relatively easy to operate if the objective is to make a few lazy turns and frolic about in the "open sky". But if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 MPH, 30,000 feet above the ground the challenges become virtually impossible for an untrained pilot. And this, precisely, is what the four hijacker pilots who could not fly a Cessna around an airport are alleged to have accomplished in multi-ton, high-speed commercial jets on 9/11. For a person not conversant with the practical complexities of pilotage, a modern flight simulator could present a terribly confusing and disorienting experience. These complex training devices are not even remotely similar to the video games one sees in amusement arcades, or even the software versions available for home computers. In order to operate a modern flight simulator with any level of skill, one has to not only be a decent pilot to begin with, but also a skilled instrument-rated one to boot and be thoroughly familiar with the actual aircraft type the simulator represents, since the cockpit layouts vary between aircraft. The only flight domains where an arcade / PC-type game would even begin to approach the degree of visual realism of a modern professional flight simulator would be during the take-off and landing phases. During these phases, of course, one clearly sees the bright runway lights stretched out ahead, and even peripherally sees images of buildings, etc. moving past. Take-offs "even landings, to a certain degree" are relatively "easy" because the pilot has visual reference cues that exist "outside" the cockpit. But once you've rotated, climbed out, and reached cruising altitude in a simulator (or real airplane), and find yourself en route to some distant destination (using sophisticated electronic navigation techniques), the situation changes drastically: the pilot loses virtually all external visual reference cues. She / he is left entirely at the mercy of an array of complex flight and navigation instruments to provide situational cues (altitude, heading, speed, attitude, etc.) In the case of a Boeing 757 or 767, the pilot would be faced with an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of assorted "hard" instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well. When flying "blind", i.e., with no ground reference cues, it takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret, and then apply, this data intelligently. If one cannot translate this information quickly, precisely and accurately (and it takes an instrument-rated pilot to do so), one would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I.e., the pilot wouldn't have a clue where she / he was in relation to the earth. Flight under such conditions is referred to as "IFR", or Instrument Flight Rules. And IFR Rule #1: Never take your eyes off your instruments, because that's all you have! The corollary to Rule #1: If you can't read the instruments in a quick, smooth, disciplined, scan, you are as good as dead. Accident records from around the world are replete with reports of any number of good pilots "i.e., professional instrument-rated pilots " who ‘bought the farm' because they screwed up while flying in IFR conditions. Let me place this in the context of the 9/11 hijacker-pilots. These men were repeatedly deemed incompetent to solo a simple “Cessna-172”, an elementary exercise that involves flying this little trainer once around the patch on a sunny day. A student's first solo flight involves a simple circuit: take-off, followed by four gentle left turns ending with a landing back on the runway. This is as basic as flying can possibly get. Not one of the hijackers was deemed fit to perform this most elementary exercise by himself, in fact, here is what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators: Now let's take a look at American Airlines Flight 77. Passenger / hijacker Hani Hanjour rises from his seat midway through the flight, viciously fights his way into the cockpit with his cohorts, overpowers Captain Charles F. Burlingame and First Officer David Charlebois, and somehow manages to toss them out of the cockpit (for starters, very difficult to achieve in a cramped environment without inadvertently impacting the yoke and thereby disengaging the autopilot). One would correctly presume that this would present considerable difficulties to a little guy with a “box cutter". Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock, who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let's ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade. Nonetheless, imagine that Hanjour overpowers the flight deck crew, removes them from the cockpit and takes his position in the captain's seat. Although weather reports state this was not the case, let's say Hanjour was lucky enough to experience a perfect CAVU day (Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited). If Hanjour looked straight ahead through the windshield, or off to his left at the ground, at best he would see, 35,000 feet - - 7 miles - - below him, a murky brownish-gray-green landscape, virtually devoid of surface detail, while the aircraft he was now piloting was moving along, almost imperceptibly and in eerie silence, at around 500 MPH (about 750 feet every second). In a real-world scenario (and given the reported weather conditions that day), he would likely have seen clouds below him completely obscuring the ground he was traversing. With this kind of "situational non-awareness", Hanjour might as well have been flying over Argentina, Russia, or Japan he wouldn't have had a clue as to where, precisely, he was. After a few seconds (at 750 feet per second), Hanjour would figure out there's little point in looking outside - there is nothing there to give him any real visual cues. For a man who had previously wrestled with little Cessnas, following freeways and railroad tracks (and always in the comforting presence of an instructor), this would have been a strange, eerily unsettling environment indeed. Seeing nothing outside, Mr. Hanjour would be forced to divert his attention to his instrument panel, where he would be faced with a bewildering array of instruments. He would then have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position! After all, before he can crash into a target, he has to first find the target. It is very difficult to explain this scenario, of an utter lack of ground reference, to non-pilots; but let it suffice to say that for these incompetent hijacker non-pilots to even consider grappling with such a daunting task would have been utterly overwhelming. They wouldn't have known where to begin. But, for the sake of discussion let's stretch things beyond all plausibility and say that Hanjour - whose flight instructor claimed "couldn't fly at all" - somehow managed to figure out their exact position on the American landscape in relation to their intended target as they traversed the earth at a speed five times faster than they had ever flown by themselves before. Once he had determined exactly where he was, he would need to figure out where the Pentagon was located in relation to his rapidly changing position. He would then need to plot a course to his target (one he cannot see with his eyes - remember, our ace is flying solely on instruments). In order to perform this bit of electronic navigation, he would have to be very familiar with IFR procedures. None of these chaps even knew what a navigational chart looked like, much less how to plug information into flight management computers (FMC) and engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode). If one is to believe the official story, all of this was supposedly accomplished by raw student pilots, while flying blind at 500 MPH, (about 750 feet every second) over 30,000 feet high and above the unfamiliar ground, (and practically invisible) terrain, using complex methodologies and employing sophisticated instruments. To get around this little problem, the official storyline suggests these men manually flew their aircraft to their respective targets (NB: This still wouldn't relieve them of the burden of navigation). But let's assume Hanjour disengaged the autopilot and auto-throttle and hand-flew the aircraft to its intended - and invisible - target on instruments alone until such time as he could get a visual fix. This would have necessitated him to fly back across West Virginia and Virginia to Washington DC. - - This portion of the Flight 77's flight path cannot be corroborated by any radar evidence that exists, because the aircraft is said to have suddenly disappeared from radar screens over Ohio, but let's not mull over that little point. - - According to FAA radar controllers, "Flight 77" then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver, - - one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn't have spelt the word if his life depended on it. - - The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane." And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him. But even that wasn't good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his "missile" was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon - and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men's lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - - I shan't get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.) Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000 pounds airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH. The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile. Why the stipulation of 20 feet and a mile? There were several street light poles located up to a mile away from the Pentagon that were snapped-off by the incoming aircraft; this suggests a low, flat trajectory during the final pre-impact approach phase. Further, it is known that the craft impacted the Pentagon's ground floor. For purposes of reference: If a 757 were placed on the ground on its engine nacelles (I.e., gear retracted as in flight profile), its nose would be almost 20 above the ground! Ergo, for the aircraft to impact the ground floor of the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to have flown in with the engines buried 10-feet deep in the Pentagon lawn. Some pilot. At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan - until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings. In other words, if this were a Boeing 757 as reported, the plane could not have been flown below about 60 feet above ground at 400 MPH. (Such a maneuver is entirely within the performance envelope of aircraft with high wing-loadings, such as ground-attack fighters, the B1-B bomber, and Cruise missiles - and the Global Hawk.) The very same navigational challenges mentioned above would have faced the pilots who flew the two 767s into the Twin Towers, in that they, too, would have had to have first found their targets. Again, these chaps, too, miraculously found themselves spot on course. And again, their "final approach" maneuvers at over 500 MPH are simply far too incredible to have been executed by pilots who could not solo basic training aircraft. Conclusion In reality, a clueless non-pilot would encounter almost insurmountable difficulties in attempting to navigate and fly a 200,000 pounds airliner into a building located on the ground, 7 miles below and hundreds of miles away and out of sight, and in an unknown direction, while flying at over 500 MPH - and all this under extremely stressful circumstances. About the Author: Nila Sagadevan was born in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and educated in Britain. A former commercial pilot, he holds a degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Edinburgh and works as a communications consultant. He lives with his wife and son in Laguna Hills, CA. and may be reached at nila@omnicomltd.com source: http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/911_Impossible_Flying_757.html 13jun2006 scaled drawing from Boeing website simplified by Mindfully.org 14jun2006 STRONGLY SUGGESTED ! I've posted about ground effect in regards to Flight 77 for YEARS, and understood it for at least as long as that. You show up on this forum and think you can come here and make up your own history of what's been said here, and what hasn't. My posting history speaks for itself, as does yours. You have been proven wrong, over and over and over, yet DO NOT EVER concede you have been wrong, you simply act as if none of it ever happened and start the entire cycle, yet again. I have repeately told you You have repeatedly LIED to me and everyone here on this forum, as well as lying ABOUT me and what I have or have not said. For example: The response from you has been (((((crickets)))). I think anyone here reading these threads instantly knows that to be a lie. I have responded to your BS MANY MANY TIMES, yet you continue to pretend there was no response. A QUALIFIED Airline Transport Pilot might be able to pick up some time on a simulator for an aircraft similar to what he is already qualified to fly, but some inept dufus who can't fly a Cessna isn't going to become an ace pilot on a 757 by attending a flight school which had a 737 simulator, which is NOT similar to a 757 simulator, all the while skipping class, not doing his homework, and not being able to understand his instructors while there. Oh, and the fact he was totally incompetent as a pilot didn't help either. "Hanjour was never licensed ever" Another lie, and you know it. I questioned the AUTHENTICITY of any said license, and had never seen any proof that he even did have one, so I asked you to post a link. After several days of hemming and hawing, you finally did. I might have said once, "ok so it must not exist then" after you weren't able to find any evidence that he DID have those certifications. Big deal, I admitted I was wrong, and that he DID have one, although he STILL wasn't qualified to have it according to his instructors. "Hanjour's 1/2 G turn 46 fps descent was a fighter pilot maneuver." Another lie. I NEVER stated that the g force of the turn had anything to do with a "fighter jet manuever", those are YOUR words, not mine, and you know that as well. The fact the aircraft was travelling somewhere around 400 mph while performing a precision turn and descending at the same time is what caught the eye of the air traffic controllers, and THEY are the ones that likened the manuever to a military aircraft. Stop twisting and misrepresenting everything, don't you get tired of spinning like a top, day in, day out? Pathetic and attempting to save face after demonstrating you know nothing, and can not support any explanation that's coherent. It's obvious that you will regurgitate your "talking points" no matter how pathetic you look, no matter how far off base they are, no matter what facts are presented. You aren't here to learn anything, nor are you here to educate. You are here to disrupt.
A noble cause. Thanks, I just hope it's done some good and opened a few minds.
BRAVO! This notion cuts right to the end game for understanding root cause of failure for 9/11. And still, the US government does not have the determination to operate according to law (already written, on-the-books USC) ... instead, it basks in the sunlight of policy/politics placing the American People in harms way. All nineteen of the terrorists were in the USA illegally for one violation or another prior to 911 and no pursuit by any agency other than some occasional monitoring by the FBI. And to think these useless TWOOFER_FAERIE™ threads review any revealing data concerning government involvement? No. They create a useless side-track of the actual issues confronting the nation.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
From The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training NILA SAGADEVAN / Earth's Common Sense Think Tank 13jun2006 As ususal you lie without batting an eye. I have repeatedly told you that the foreigner's email does not work because I got a bounce back. Get me a real expert who is American and has current valid aviation status. Not a fly by night hack who can't stick around to answer legitimate questions and challenges. You keep flogging these k00ksite POS's whose blatherings get passed around long after their perps disappear in their hit and runs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #19 at topic: "First Signs of Civil War in the US? Sheriff Tony DeMeo Threatens Force Against Federal Agents from Bureau of Land Mgmt" Name cross-reference, in case the Wadih character is a fake.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
This is an outstanding video and cuts to the chase for understanding the root cause of failure of and about 911. FINALLY, we are getting back to reality instead of useless, meaningless speculation. Grey -- you found the video, why not create a new thread? Invite the entire forum for response. Lets get off these old tired TWOOFER_FAERIE™ BSer sessions....
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
not quite
Grey -- you found the video, why not create a new thread? Invite the entire forum for response. Lets get off these old tired TWOOFER_FAERIE™ BSer sessions.... I posted that video in another thread and linked the post here because I suspect the name "Wadih el Hage" is a concocted play on words, possibly to associate subconsiously with villainy the name of someone who was a thorn in the side of corrupt power here. I wouldn't call the video reality but the official storyline in a nutshell, which I of course study in order to dig deeper. Hence, the Wadih/Wadi Hage/"Haji"/Hajj - Muslim pilgrimage suspected artifice. I am a No Planes researcher/investigator. Ergo, I don't believe there were any Arab hijackers, just an invented backdrop of fictional characters and duped players who were deceptively used by the PNAC types for selling their premise of "a new Pearl Harbor" to throw us into perpetual wars for perpetual profit and to usher in the despotic PATRIOT Act abomination. You posted the public domain video here and can start a new thread with it if you want to but I will most probably crosslink this post in rebuttal and another that I posted quite some time ago debunking the alleged Military "stand down" order, (CJCSI) 3610.01A, which expressly states words to the effect of "except in an emergency" -- which of course 9/11 was. Note: done with editing.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
I was going back through the forum to find something and went much farther back than I had to, so I read some interesting old threads and found this video, "A Tribute To Patriots- Fight The New World Order", in the topic I Can't Get It Out Of My Head- A Tribute To Patriots. @ 6:25, there's a truther.org poster-graphic titled "9/11 Truth for Dummies". Thought you might like to see the pic and also might want to research that site for your project.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Hani Hanjour
Obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 from the Federal Aviation Administration. The license expired six months later because he failed to complete a required medical exam. In 1996, he received flight training for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., but did not finish the course because his instructors thought he was not proficient enough. He listed his address as a post office box in Taife, Saudi Arabia, but he also has been linked to addresses in San Diego and Hollywood, Fla. His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#212. To: FormerLurker (#211)
Hanjour presented his Virginia driver's license when he purchased his plane ticket on August 31 from a New Jersey travel agent.
#213. To: FormerLurker (#204)
I don't need to prove a negative.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#214. To: buckeroo (#212)
Hanjour presented his Virginia driver's license when he purchased his plane ticket on August 31 from a New Jersey travel agent.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#215. To: FormerLurker (#214)
I find the Washington Post more credible than you
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#216. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#214)
I find the Washington Post more credible than you and your government handlers.
#217. To: buckeroo, ALL (#216)
XV. SEARCH EVIDENCE
At approximately 3:45 PM, on 09/12/01, WFO was notified by the Dulles Airport police
that a suspicious vehicle was found at Dulles International Airport (IAD), Hourly Lot, Row G,
Dulles, Virginia. A vehicle record check determined that the vehicle was registered to NAWAF
AL-HAZMI, of 8451 Mount Vernon Avenue, Lemon Grove, California, 91945. A search
warrant was approved for the 1988 4-door blue Toyota Corolla, CA 3JFZ283, VIN
#JT2AE92E9J313137546. Items seized include the following:
1) An hourly parking ticket dated and stamped 09/11/01 7:25 AM
2) Four (4) color diagrams of an instrument panel for a B757 aircraft
3) One yellow and black utility knife (box cutter)
4) One Pan Am International Flight Academy, Jet Tech International, Phoenix, AZ,
identification card in the name of HANI HANJOUR
5) A cashier's check to the Flight Academy in the amount of $5745 from HANJOUR.
6) A travel itinerary for seats 13 A and 13B for KHALID AL-MIHDHAR and MAJED
MOQED on AA Flight 77
Law Enforcement Sensitive
JICI 04/19/02 FBI03116
Law Enforcement Sensitive.
7) A piece of paper with the name "Osama 5895316"
8) Packing slip of package sent by Rawf Al Dog, 1565 Washington Boulevard, #8, Laurel,
Maryland through Mail Boxes, Etc. via U.S. Mail Express, to the United Arab Emirates
'_. on 09/10/01 at 6:57 AM
9) . • A checkbook with partially written checks with an account name of NAWAF AL
HAZMI, 96 Linwood Plaza, #417, Fort Lee, NJ, from Hudson United Bank, Levittown,
PA, account#3980999775
10) One Maryland Motor Vehicle receipt for new identification card #H526298757675, dated
09/5/01 at 12:17 PM, with a handwritten address on the back of "505, 14800 4th Street,
Laurel, Maryland, 20707"
11) ATM receipt from First Union Bank of a deposit to account #1010042788049 for
$120.00 on 09/10/01.
2) Not have left every single piece of evidence in the car he left, sitting in the parking garage at the airport he would never return to. He may as well just have painted his car with big red letters "I AM THE HIJACKER.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#218. To: FormerLurker (#217)
(Edited)
Talk about a perfect yet obvious setup.
Osama Awadallah San Diego, California Jordanian originally suspected of giving support to 9/11 hijacker Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi. However to date, the only charges filed have been lying to a Federal Grand Jury saying he did not know hijacker Almihdar.
#219. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, ALL (#216)
9/11/2001
HANJOUR boarded American Airlines Flight 77 at Dulles International
Airport, Washington, DC, seat IB.
[American Airlines manifest; Dulles security video tapes]
The actual Hani Hanjour
The alleged "Hanjour" at Dulles International Airport on 9/11/2001,
Note: The actual date is uncertain, as there is no timestamp on the video the image was captured from.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#220. To: buckeroo (#218)
You deny hardcore evidence
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#221. To: FormerLurker (#220)
#222. To: buckeroo (#221)
I provided the AA77 manifest.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#223. To: FormerLurker (#222)
You provided an ALLEGED manifest, which is different than the one reviewed by the Washington Post.
#224. To: FormerLurker (#222)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#225. To: buckeroo (#223)
Nope... FACTUAL and from American Airlines.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#226. To: James Deffenbach (#224)
Does it really matter what buck has produced or not produced? Didn't ALL of Hanjours/Hanjoors flight instructors say he was a piss-poor pilot and that he could barely fly a Cessna?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#227. To: FormerLurker (#225)
What makes you think it came from American Airlines? Some guy's word on the Internet?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#228. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#217)
Talk about a perfect yet obvious setup.
If a real person had done what Hanjour is said to have done,
More arm-waving by someone who doesn't wish to consider factual evidence that overthrows preconceived conclusions. What would the problem of deferring all PR announcements to Osama Bin Laden, who would be far better prepared to give them, instead of trying to commander the media communication by himself?
1) Left a note or a video
2) Not have left every single piece of evidence in the car he left
The "box cutters" and the "four color diagrams of a 757 instrument panel" are just a bit much.
In reality, he would have either made it difficult for law enforcment to find out who he was, OR announced that he was in fact the hijacker
Is this document authentic, or was it provided by a writer? 19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the "play dumb" rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#229. To: buckeroo (#218)
Many of those indictments went to federal court. And many of those same indictments, the defendants pleaded GUILTY.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#230. To: AGAviator (#228)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#231. To: AGAviator (#229)
HAHAHAHAHA.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#232. To: AGAviator (#228)
More arm-waving by someone who doesn't wish to consider factual evidence that overthrows preconceived conclusions.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#233. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#231)
(Edited)
So what of the "hijackers" who are still alive and well?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#234. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#232)
That's all you do here is wave your arms and repeat the same crap over and over again.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#235. To: AGAviator, ALL (#233)
In other words you have no proof that anybody actually did survive who was the same person positively identified as the hijacker.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#236. To: AGAviator (#234)
My postings - and buck's even more so - have specific facts backed by hundreds of pages of specific documentation.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#237. To: FormerLurker (#236)
Hanjour could not fly a simple propeller powered airplane. Hanjour got a license for a single engine airplane and a multi engine airplane. You choose to cherry pick statements by the same people who explicitly said Hanjour was completely capable of flying an aircraft from Point A to Point B then crashing the plane into Point B.
He never flew a jet aircraft.
Yet you want people to believe he defeated the laws of aerodynamics by flying a Boeing 757 jumbo feet 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#238. To: FormerLurker (#236)
I ran out of smart sounding quotes
#239. To: AGAviator (#237)
And he didn't have to. He flew simulators which according to the FAA are valid substitutes and allow you to become fully prepared for a type certification check ride.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#240. To: AGAviator (#237)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#241. To: AGAviator (#237)
You don't know jack $hit about the laws of aerodynamics and you never have demonstrated knowledge of even one detail.
The Impossibility of
Flying Heavy Aircraft
Without Training NILA SAGADEVAN / Earth's Common Sense Think Tank 13jun2006
The writers of the official storyline expect us to believe, that once the flight deck crews had been overpowered, using “box cutters" and the hijackers "took control" of the various aircraft, their intended targets suddenly popped up in their windshields as they would have in some arcade game, and all that these fellows would have had to do was simply aim their airplanes at the buildings and fly into them. Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they would realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning. 
Text and link to MP3 audio of David Ray Griffin speaking on the collapse of the World Trade
Center at the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland, California on Thursday, 30 March 2006.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#242. To: AGAviator (#237)
It has been me who introduced the concept of ground effect on these threads, and you have misinterpreted that concept into oblivion without understanding it in the least.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#243. To: wudidiz (#238)
You're doing a good job, FL. Fighting lies with truth.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#244. To: AGAviator, Formerlurker (#233)
Because of routinely subpar work by the INS, there were many ways for many different agencies and ad hoc conspiracies to trick the system including: Having a "John Smith" name which many other people also have, being able to mis appropriate someone else's identity, being able to manufacture a false identity, having confusion about translation from Arabic to English for example "Nur" or "Noor" equaling the same Arabic name but beng 2 separate names or people in the US computers, etc.
#245. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#241)
Here's that article again, since you obviously ignored it the last 10 times I posted it to you...
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#246. To: buckeroo (#218)
Wadih el Hage
#247. To: GreyLmist, AGAviator, tom007, turtle, FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#246)
#248. To: buckeroo (#247)
getting back to reality
I ran out of smart sounding quotes
#249. To: buckeroo (#247)
(Edited)
This is an outstanding video and cuts to the chase for understanding the root cause of failure of and about 911. FINALLY, we are getting back to reality instead of useless, meaningless speculation.
#250. To: Eric Stratton (#184)
(Edited)
Anyway, ... back to the topic. If anyone has a data point that fits with the original theme of this thread, please shoot it to me. Feel free to post it here as well.
#251. To: GreyLmist (#250)
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