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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 for Dummies
Source: N/A
URL Source: http://N/A
Published: Aug 1, 2010
Author: N/A
Post Date: 2010-08-01 09:57:39 by Eric Stratton
Ping List: *9-11*     Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: None
Views: 4599
Comments: 251

What I would suggest is to start a thread on the subject of 911 coincidences and explain in the header essay what you are looking for i.e., "coincidences" that are not arcane and that can be communicated simply to raw public.


Poster Comment:

Per OI's suggestion, that is what I've undertaken.

I have come to the conclusion that the final nails into the coffin of our Republic are being conducted with neocons holding the hammer, willfully and gleefully as our Republik more than slowly becomes a totalitarian state on steroids. I have also come to the unfortunate conclusion that it is primarily for lack of serious personal investigation, willful negligence and ignorance in essence, as the reasons why they believe the official Fairy Tale. They've never seriously looked into the matter, only superficially, and they've been driven by how their political "heroes" in the GOP have responded to the "twoofers;" Lameblow, Hammity, Palin, Junior, Cheney, etc., etc.

Granted, now Hussein is in office and they are blaming his cadre of people for merely continuing on in the BuchCo. legacy, but nevertheless, it is driven primarily by support for "national security," which we all here realize is really "federal government and NWO elite security," and which is all spun off of this notion that there are terrorists lurking around every street corner waiting to blow us all up when if that were even remotely true it'd have been done a thousand times already since 9/11. Instead, it's only happened a statistically insignificant number of times.

It's clear that they're never going to spend as much time researching this as we all do here. After all, they have socials and far more important things to attend to and investments to take care of so that they can all retire when they're 50-years old and play golf five days a week until they die and therefore cannot be inconvenienced to actually consider why they may be lucky to have a set of clubs in five years and access to a course.

So what I thought I would do is attempt to piece together a list of between 20 and 50 items that can be read within say a half-hour and that when considered individually really give cause for people to wonder about it all. 9/11 that is. But that when taken collectively, make them only ask "how can that all be if the Fairy Tale is actually true?" Obviously no one can force another to look, but what can be done is to make the top 20-50 points very easy to access and point out and ingest within a short period of time.

This should be a "Reader's Digest" Short-list version if you will.

Do I think that this is going to be the difference? No. I think that our Republic is toast in a major way regardless with much pain and suffering on the immediate horizon. But I also think that there's a very small window, and ever diminishing one, wherein which if all goes perfectly, perhaps there is at least a degree of hope, and God willing.

If anyone has seen exactly this, please post the link. I have not. I have seen numerous lists that have many items, often "arcane" ones as OI states above. I know that there are also thousands of data points as well, hence the effort.

If these points have blatant video evidence or irrefutable eye witness testimony from indisputable sources it would be good. Otherwise, simple logical "impossibilities" are also good. They should include the points that are the "biggest bang for the buck." I also know that many "financial coincidences" also fit the bill.

I thought we could brainstorm this together. I will keep a "top-50" list, and anyone else can feel free to do the same obviously.

But I thought a concentrated thread wherein only such data points are included and discussion related to them. It would be good to limit the thread to only that to avoid unnecessary clutter in a thread that will probably end up being quite large.

Thoughts?

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#109. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#107)

Paranoid much, shillster?

Stating facts I can cite references to, projector.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   21:41:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: AGAviator (#103)

Man, you have patience with these folks... now the "gay" stuff again? Soon, they will remarck about the creams and jellies that have witnessed, just as the "conspiracy by the government."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   21:43:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#106)

Ok, where on this thread have I posted any "gaybanter"?

The same place buck & I

"both start crying little girl tears when people respond in kind, posting pages and pages of inane ad hominem junk, muddying up the thread, then say it was "incredible" and you "refuted" everything that was presented in terms of facts"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   21:43:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: buckeroo (#101)

And that same certification PROVES, that Hanjour was trained to some extent to slam a jet into a building.

No, it simply proves he was able to "buy" a license he wasn't qualified for. Additionally, it did not in any way "qualify" him to fly a jet, he NEVER flew a jet in his life, and he couldn't even fly a single engine propeller driven plane well enough to rent one.

Besides him basically being unable to fly at all, the fact that the aircraft is alleged to have flown 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph indicates that the pilot was sitting in a control room remotely piloting the aircraft, or that jet wasn't a 757. In fact, the damage to the Pentagon indicates it wasn't.

So, what evidence do you have that Hani Hanjour actually flew that plane? Why him, what evidence is there that he was even onboard that plane at all?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   21:45:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: AGAviator (#111)

The same place buck & I

"both start crying little girl tears when people respond in kind, posting pages and pages of inane ad hominem junk, muddying up the thread, then say it was "incredible" and you "refuted" everything that was presented in terms of facts"

Posting facts isn't "gaybanter".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   21:46:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: AGAviator (#108)

Unfortunately because you were so vicious and unrelenting in your attacks on someone for stating true facts, you came down pretty hard when proven wrong. That's no one's problem but yours.

Ah, the ole blame your victims of the crimes you have perpetrated against them trick, eh?

You didn't prove me wrong in ANYTHING, you simply repeat the same discredited claims over, and over, and over, declaring victory each time.

By the way, what evidence do you have that Hani Hanjour was the pilot of Flight 77 from Ohio to Washigton?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   21:49:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#105)

There certainly has to be SOME reason why buck ignores all physical and cimcumstantial evidence, and makes up his own laws of physics.

I remember O_I pulling a fast one on a thread.... something to the point, that he used his "differential equations" to PROVE that the WTC didn't pancake. He said something to the effect, "but that was years ago but I will look it up and reproduce it."

He never did. It was all HOT_AIRE as always. Yet, DEs aren't required to understand, F = MA and in conjunction with the FORCE of jet aircraft slamming into building we also have collaborative photographic information of "pancaking."

I have already posted a link @45.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   21:50:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: FormerLurker (#112)

No, it simply proves he was able to "buy" a license he wasn't qualified for.

Not true as always. It was an FAA licensed instructor signing his credentials. You have lied again.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   21:52:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: buckeroo (#115)

Yet, DEs aren't required to understand, F = MA and in conjunction with the FORCE of jet aircraft slamming into building we also have collaborative photographic information of "pancaking."

You have NO "photographic evidence" of pancaking. There is ABUNDENT EVIDENCE of the towers turning to dust however.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   21:52:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#113)

Posting facts isn't "gaybanter".

Then you got nothing to complain about when I call your so-called ***lady*** a Circle Jerk Fag Hag.

I can take the high road or the low road, it doesn't matter to me. You'll get back what you give.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   21:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: FormerLurker (#117)

No evidence of any pancakes but plenty of eyewitnesses who saw molten steel. And from office fires! Guess that was the syrup for the "pancakes."

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-01   21:55:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: buckeroo (#116)

Not true as always. It was an FAA licensed instructor signing his credentials. You have lied again.

No idiot, EVERY flight instructor who delt with him reports that he was incompetent, could not perform basic manuevers, and even some of THEM questioned whether his "license" was a fake, since he basically couldn't fly at all.

So he had some FAA contractor sign off on his license, that in itself should be investigated as to how such an incompetent person can get both a private and a commercial FAA pilot's license.

It indicates our skies are filled with totally inept pilots, as basically anyone off the street can get one.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   21:56:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: FormerLurker (#117)

You have NO "photographic evidence" of pancaking.

Yes, I do. It was on TV as shown in video @45. The pancaking occurred because of the upper floors losing strength to support the mass. It all occurred at or near the impact of the planes.

There was no demolition.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   21:56:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: James Deffenbach (#119)

No evidence of any pancakes but plenty of eyewitnesses who saw molten steel. And from office fires! Guess that was the syrup for the "pancakes."

Yep, and the pulverized concrete was the "confectioners sugar".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   21:57:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: FormerLurker (#122)

Yep, and the pulverized concrete was the "confectioners sugar".

That's be some nasty-@$$ed pancakes, wouldn't it? Molten steel for syrup and pulverized concrete to top it off. Or maybe they used the pulverized concrete to make the batter.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-01   22:00:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: FormerLurker (#120)

No idiot

Here we go again.... FL, cut the crap ... you can't refute the evidence (DOCUMENTED FROM THE FAA) and his own trainers.... you go on and on and on... attempting to disprove something that exists. You remind me of someone that pushes on a rope hoping it will become a straight and equilateral length in a unidirectional consistent with the same vector applied.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   22:00:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: buckeroo (#86)

What is important to point out is that Palestinians AND MUSLIMA around the world were doing their LA_LA_LA_LA all over Palestine IMMEDIATELY after the attacks. Complicity? Of course.

I think that was a staged deception by Israel's damage-control propaganda- meisters to turn attention away from the Dancing Israelis arrested here and onto Israel's designated enemies.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-01   22:01:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: buckeroo (#86)

What is important to point out is that Palestinians AND MUSLIMA around the world were doing their LA_LA_LA_LA all over Palestine IMMEDIATELY after the attacks. Complicity? Of course.

It's never occurred to them that 2 opposing sides can both want the same conflict for different reasons:

That is, each of thinks thinks their side will win in the end!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   22:05:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: buckeroo (#45)

edit: view about 16:50 into this video.... the building pancaked beneath the downward force of structurally weakened upper floors based on the jet aircraft... there was no other explosions.

That certainly DOES NOT indicate "pancaking", it indicates that the bottom structure was being PULVERIZED ahead of the actual falling structure.

A real "pancaking" would have simply caused the floors to drop, leaving the center core and exterior columns intact. However, EVERYTHING was pulverized, except for the very bottom section of the center core, which then fell apart shortly after the initial collapse.

Additionally, due to the loss of mass (the top structure is seen being PULVERIZED), there would be less mass falling on lower floors, where the floors should have been able to handle the increased load, at least for a period of time. There is no pancaking involved, and your video doesn't prove what you claim.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:06:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: GreyLmist (#125)

I think that was a staged deception

Here you go!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   22:14:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: FormerLurker (#127)

buck still arguing that the planes caused the buildings to fall? According to the people who designed and engineered them that would not happen, they were designed with that in mind (at least the possibility). And of course it stands to reason they would have had to consider that since it had happened before (Empire State Building). And I am sure they took into account that any plane that hit it would probably have some fuel onboard since it is still not possible to get them to fly without it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-01   22:15:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: AGAviator (#13) (Edited)

what we really want to know is what is on all those videos from around the pentagon that were confiscated, what is the liar movement trying to hide?


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-08-01   22:17:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: FormerLurker (#127)

it indicates that the bottom structure was being PULVERIZED ahead of the actual falling structure.

Pulled by what? Your continuous yarn and balley-hoo? EVIDENCE, FACT, WITNESSES that prove your conspiracy.

And, you can't because the pancaking occurred from the TOP FLOORS downward just below the impacts of the respective jet aircraft. Not UPWARD as in a controlled or even an uncontrolled demolition.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   22:17:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: IRTorqued (#130)

what we really want to know is what is on the video from around the pentagon that was confiscated, what is the liar movement trying to hide?

@45 ... there is LIVE footage showing thousands of Pentagon workers looking at the disaster.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   22:19:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: buckeroo, ALL (#124)

you can't refute the evidence (DOCUMENTED FROM THE FAA) and his own trainers

You clearly are ignoring what his INSTRUCTORS have said. Let me remind you that the info is highly referenced and not subject to your interpretations...

From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun - Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

The Legend Unraveled

According to an FBI chronology for Hani Hanjour cited by the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour first travelled to the U.S. in 1991 on a visa issued in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor", in order to attend the University of Arizona’s Center for English as a Second Language. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he was again issued a visa at Jeddah in March, 1996. Back in the U.S., he attended classes at the ELS Language Center in Oakland, California from May until August. For a week in September, he took ground training lessons at the Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center (SAAATC). From the end of September until mid- October, he purchased flight instruction from Cockpit Resources Management (CRM) in Scottsdale, Arizona. He then returned to Saudi Arabia once more.20 The Washington Post reported that according to Hanjour’s brother, Yasser, "Hanjour applied for a job at the state- owned Saudi Arabian Airlines but was told that he lacked sufficient grades.... He said the company told him it would reconsider his application only if he acquired a commercial pilot’s license in the United States."21 Yasser characterized Hanjour "as a frustrated young Saudi who wanted desperately – but never succeeded – to become a pilot for the Saudi national airline."22

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32

In April 1998, Hanjour applied for his private pilot certificate with a single-engine rating, but he failed his test. One of the tasks documents show he would need to be reexamined for was "coordinated turns to headings"34 He tried again later that same month and this time received his private pilot certificate under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor," with an "Airplane Single Engine Land" rating.

In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin- engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single- engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39

Additionally, commercial pilot certification is different from the Airline Transport Pilot certification held by airline captains. To obtain a commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating, Hanjour only needed to log in 250 hours of flight time, whereas to obtain an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, pilots are required to log 1,500 hours.40 Needless to say, having the ability to control a Cessna 172 or Piper Apache propeller plane does not translate into the ability to handle a Boeing 757 jetliner – and Hanjour could barely do the former.

Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth six paragraphs later by saying that Hanjour subsequently "wanted to train on multi- engine planes". But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth by asserting that this was merely "refresher" training (a matter to which we will return).

Hanjour again left the country on April 28, 1999.24 As the 9/11 Commission report observed, when he returned to Saudi Arabia to apply in the civil aviation school in Jeddah, he was rejected.24 He subsequently began making preparations to return to the U.S. once again.24 In September 2000, Hanjour was denied a student visa after indicating that he wanted to remain in the U.S. for three years, and yet listed no address for where he intended to stay in Arizona.23 But he tried again for a student visa under the name "Hani Hanjour" later that same month. This time, he wrote that he wanted to stay for one year instead of three, and listed a specific address in California, not Arizona, where he said he was going on his first application. Despite these obvious red flags, he was issued the visa.23

He entered the U.S. in December and took more flight lessons that month at Arizona Aviation. From February until mid-March, he attended Pan Am International Flight Academy, also known as Jet Tech International, in Mesa, Arizona.24

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi- engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

As already discussed, it remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified to hold his commercial pilot certificate. It was at this time, as the Associated Press reported, that "Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he already held, flight school and government officials say."44 The manager of JetTech said, "I couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had."45

Whereas the 9/11 Commission suggested that, because he "persevered", Hanjour "completed the initial training", thus leading the public to the conclusion that his skills had advanced accordingly, the Times offered a very different account: "Ultimately administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ‘He didn’t care about the fact that he couldn’t get through the course,’ the ex- employee said. Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. ‘I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,’ the former employee said. ‘He could not fly at all.’"43

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:19:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: buckeroo, IRTorqued (#132)

@45 ... there is LIVE footage showing thousands of Pentagon workers looking at the disaster.

Where are the videos of the approach and the impact?

Oh, and what evidence is there that Hani Hanjour flew that aircraft?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:20:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: FormerLurker (#134)

Oh, and what evidence is there that Hani Hanjour flew that aircraft?

?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-01   22:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, IRTorqued, RickyJ (#86) (Edited)

What is important to point out is that Palestinians AND MUSLIMA around the world were doing their LA_LA_LA_LA all over Palestine IMMEDIATELY after the attacks. Complicity? Of course.

There weren't any Palestinians video taping the buildings as they were attacked, having cameras setup BEFORE the attacks even occured.

There WERE some Israelis that DID however...

From The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11;

The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:24:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: buckeroo, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#132)

bucky you and the rest of the liar movement are so full of crap you should in fact be referred to as the lying bowel movement. you know full well the video in question is that which shows what really happened at 0932 9-11-01 and you also know it is being held under wraps because it does not depict what you and the rest of the liar movement claim. is there a cure for your factaphobia?


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-08-01   22:25:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: buckeroo (#135)

Oh, and what evidence is there that Hani Hanjour flew that aircraft?

?

DO you know of any evidence indicating Hani Hanjour was onboard that aircraft, and that he took control of the plane and flew it from Ohio to Washington DC?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:26:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: FormerLurker (#134)

that factaphobic bucky knows those are the videos that needs to be seen by the public but can't because it will destroy the liar movement. when the liar movement is destroyed bucky and AGovshill are out of a job, poor saps.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-08-01   22:30:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: buckeroo (#131)

And, you can't because the pancaking occurred from the TOP FLOORS downward just below the impacts of the respective jet aircraft. Not UPWARD as in a controlled or even an uncontrolled demolition.

So you're saying that a covert operation who wanted to blame "19 angry ragheads" for the attacks would have performed a text book controlled demolition, making it obvious that's what it was, eh?

It's NOT impossible to set off explosive charges to go off under the immediate floors below the impacted area, then set them off sequentially on each lower floor using remotely controlled charges, detonating at the precise times needed for the top to fall down through the lower floors.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:35:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#118)

at best AGovshill is the bottom of the gutter of the low road.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-08-01   22:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: buckeroo (#128) (Edited)

Footage of 9/11 Celebrations An Israeli Fake
http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=yuvscDkrs3U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=0xnaFLxd1aI&feature=related

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-01   22:35:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: AGAviator, ALL (#118)

Then you got nothing to complain about when I call your so-called ***lady*** a Circle Jerk Fag Hag.

It's obvious you have no class, and it's obvious that you respond to facts with ad hominems. It's all you have.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:37:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: IRTorqued (#141)

at best AGovshill is the bottom of the gutter of the low road.

Yep, a truly distasteful character who has no qualms about launching into a woman with vulgarities.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-01   22:38:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: FormerLurker, James Deffenbach (#122)

the humanity....we missed Saint Alfonzo's pancake breakfast.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-08-01   22:43:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#133) (Edited)

Let me remind you that the info is highly referenced and not subject to your interpretations...

Interpretation, not fact:

*Al Qaeda’s Top Gun
*Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission
*The Legend Unraveled

*In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest",...
*Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate...
*It seems highly dubious...
FALSE STATEMENT: *Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." ...
*The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth...
*But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth...
*The implications are that Hanjour was
*By misleadingly suggesting that this occurred...
*Apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school,...
*The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough....
TRUE STATMENT!!!! *"There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern...
*As already discussed, It remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified...
*Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   22:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: FormerLurker (#140)

the ease of initiating the charges using strain gauges or attenuated seismic initiation is child's play as is merely using 32 feet per second per second as the base timing sequence.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-08-01   22:58:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: FormerLurker (#143)

Obvious that you respond to facts with ad hominems.

(1) Why is a 1/2 G turn called a "fighter pilot maneuver" when student pilots must pull 2 G's and fighter pilots pull over 8 G's.

(2) Why is descending at 46.4667 feet per second or 31.818 MPH vertically called a "fighter manueuver" when roller coasters go faster than that.

(3) Why a controller can express an opinion of a turn that does not even show up on the radar screen for its last half as being a "precision" turn she could not even see.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   23:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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