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Immigration
See other Immigration Articles

Title: Arizona: A “Revolutionary” Line in the Sand?
Source: CanadaFreePress.com
URL Source: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/26124
Published: Aug 4, 2010
Author: Doug Hagmann
Post Date: 2010-08-04 10:10:35 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 1341
Comments: 144

Arizona: A “Revolutionary” Line in the Sand?
By Doug Hagmann
August 3, 2010

I believe that history will show that the passage of SB 1070 by Arizona, and the federal government’s lawsuit to stop its implementation will be regarded the first battle of the 21st century American Revolution. Although not a single shot was fired- yet, the battle lines have clearly been drawn. Never before in the modern history of our country have all of the elements been in place for a war between our government and the citizenry of the United States. We stand at a proverbial and historic flashpoint as Obama plans to use the foot soldiers created by “comprehensive immigration reform,” whether achieved by law or mandate, to implement his socialist agenda for America.

Transforming the United States into a socialist nation

While the process of transforming the America known by our parents and grandparents to a socialist colony has been in progress for a half-century at the hands of Marxists, Socialists and Progressives, the Obama administration has put the Balkanization of America and the polarization of its citizens along racial, political and ideological lines on the fast track. And at least for now, he’s got the backing of Congress to advance his agenda of radical change. That was never so evident than on May 20th when the dictator of a corrupt, third world country was given a sickening, treasonous standing ovation in the halls of Congress for attacking the proposed legislation of an American sovereign state to uphold the laws of our country.

Regardless of whatever legislative support he might currently enjoy, evidence has shown that he is actively considering a back door strategy that would circumvent the need for congressional approval. More importantly, it would also circumvent the need for approval from the citizens of the U.S. Once in place, the amnesty of millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. would create a formidable electoral force to keep the Progressives in power under the pretext of free elections. The talk of altruistic motives of immigration and the joys and benefits of multiculturalism is nothing more than a smokescreen for power and control on the path to transforming the United States into a socialist nation.

Hart-Celler Act, Chain Migration

To understand how we got to this point in our national history, the groundwork for the transformation of our country was laid in 1965 with the passage of the Hart-Celler Act, which was signed into law by then President Lyndon Johnson. As Mark Levin details in his best-selling book Liberty and Tyranny, that single piece of legislation, as part of the Great Society, laid “the foundation for radically altering the character of American society and the relationship of the governed to their government.” During the debate of the bill on the floor of the Senate, Levin noted that Senator Kennedy insisted that the ethnic mix of the U.S. would not be changed, nor would America be inundated with immigrants from any one country or area.” In his assessment of the debate, Mark Levin wrote “it is hard to believe that they were not intentionally deceiving the public.” Indeed.

That bill caused a significant change in immigration that essentially created the current situation in the U.S. It introduced “chain migration,” which radically altered the “historical basis for making immigration decisions.” As written by Mr. Levin, “The emphasis would no longer be on the preservation of American society and the consent of the governed; now aliens themselves would decide who comes to the United States through family reunification (emphasis mine). The act also eliminated national quotas for immigration, opening the floodgates for immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America.

Consider that as a result of the 1965 immigration reform and deliberate lack of immigration enforcement, nearly 1 in 3 immigrants living in the U.S. today is here illegally. Additionally, legal immigration increased from 2.5 million in the 1950’s to over 10 million in the 1990’s. In 2007, the immigrant population in the U.S. reached a record 37.9 million and today accounts for 1 in 8 of all U.S. residents. In contrast, immigrants accounted for 1 in 21 of all U.S. residents in 1970.

9 percent of the population of Mexico resides in the United States

According to a 2004 report by the Pew Hispanic Center and detailed in Liberty and Tyranny, roughly 9 percent of the population of Mexico resides in the United States. Fifty seven percent of all illegal immigrants are Mexican, and another 24 percent are from other Latin American countries. In less than 40 years, it is estimated that Hispanic school-aged children will comprise the majority of public school students in the U.S.

While many proponents of immigration argue that the immigrants are here to assimilate and contribute to the United States, a 2008 study by the Manhattan Institute determined that the current level of assimilation is at a record low. Perhaps this is most evident by the fact that more than 55 million individuals living in the U.S. speak a language other than English, including over 34 million who speak Spanish. It is evident that assimilation is not a priority. The establishment of ethnic conclaves within the U.S. is an example of the lack of desire to assimilate into the fabric of American society.

In addition to the social and cultural effects of immigration as a whole, illegal immigrants are being aided by our own government in transferring money out of the United States. In 2006, illegal aliens sent an estimated $45 billion from the U.S. to their countries of origin. Last year, thanks to the assistance of the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury, Mexicans alone living and working in the U.S. transferred between $21.9 and $25 billion to the Mexican economy. Under the program called Directo a Mexico, U.S. commercial banks enable illegal aliens to transfer money through the Federal Reserve’s own automated clearinghouse, which is linked to the Mexican central bank Banco de Mexico. The illegal alien is also given an ATM card that can be used in Mexican banks in the event of their deportation.

The outflow of U.S. dollars to Mexico

The outflow of U.S. dollars to Mexico is second only to Mexico’s oil industry in the amount of revenue produced. It should be no wonder, then, that the Mexican government has no interest in working with U.S. authorities to secure our border or to enforce our immigration laws. In fact, it is the ultimate goal of the global elite to erase our borders and implement a “North American Union” as a step to achieving global governance.

Illegal immigration is a big business, and not just for Mexico. It is estimated that $18-25 billion is spent by state governments on welfare programs to illegal aliens each year, and about $2.2 billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs for illegal aliens. And additional $2.5 billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. The drain on the American economy by individuals living illegally in the United States is a significant threat that will lead to our demise.

There should be no doubt that illegal aliens also pose a security risk to our country. First and foremost, they are living and working in this country illegally—contrary to the laws of the United States. And contrary to the Progressive party line, the proponents of multiculturalism, and civil rights and advocacy organizations that subjugate the rights of Americans to their own agendas, crimes committed by illegal aliens are statistically higher than legal immigrants or U.S. citizens. In 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a study it conducted of 55,322 incarcerated illegal aliens. The study population averaged 8 arrests each. Ninety seven percent were arrested more than once, and 26% had over 11 arrests each. Each illegal alien averaged 13 separate offenses and 24% of those offenses were for drug crimes. About 12% were for murder, robbery, assault and sexually related crimes, and 21% of offenses were immigration offenses. Other offenses included property related offenses, traffic violations, fraud and obstruction of justice.

Illegal aliens arrested for less serious crimes and released pending a hearing at a future date often fail to appear. According to US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, there were 557,762 fugitive alien cases were listed as “unsolved” at the end of 2008. Furthermore, illegal immigrants with extensive criminal records and multiple deportations are often permitted to remain in the U.S. by activist judges who are sympathetic to their plight.

The rampant problem of illegal immigration can easily be solved not by creating new legislation or enacting a complex system of immigration reform. As we observed in the weeks leading up to the implementation of SB 1070 in Arizona as law, the mere threat of realistic enforcement was sufficient to cause an exodus of illegal aliens from that state. As illustrated by the incoherent ruling of a political hack legislating from the bench, Arizona’s attempt to secure their state was undermined in a crafty and carefully executed political ploy. It is no coincidence that the appeal process will extend beyond the November midterm elections. It is the political hubris of a socialist dictator imposing his agenda against the will of the majority of this country’s citizenry.

National Council of La Raza, John McCain, Hillary Clinton

The failure to effectively address the issue of illegal immigration is not limited to any one political party; many Republicans as well as a vast majority of Democrats are complicit in failing to secure America’s safety and sovereignty. Consider that the National Council of La Raza, the largest Hispanic advocacy group in the United States, honored Senator John McCain in 1999. During her presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton appointed a senior member of La Raza to her staff, and Obama appointed a La Raza leader as the director of the Office of Internal Affairs. Undoubtedly, this virulent pro-amnesty group enjoys a significant influence over public policy in American government. Funding of this group finds numerous foundations and individuals who espouse and promote a global ideology and “one world governance” over national sovereignty as key contributors.

Despite the above statistics, those who demand immigration enforcement and the rule of law are often labeled as racists and xenophobes. American cities and states like Arizona are reeling from the adverse financial and social effects of illegal immigration and unfettered legal immigration. They lack help from the federal government, which is more intent on creating an electoral majority to ensure the continuation of their power to facilitate the socialist makeover and takeover of the United States. Obama and his justice department are siding with criminals against the citizens of America. Arizona is attempting to restore order to a system of chaos created by the federal government. Instead of welcoming the help and choosing to uphold the U.S. Constitution, the Obama administration is imposing a socialist dictatorship and has drawn a line in the Arizona sand. The question is now whether that line becomes “Ground Zero” for this century’s American Revolution—a fight against the Balkanization of our country, and the eradication of our borders, our sovereignty and ultimately, our nation.

As noted by one Arizona Sheriff, “our own government has become our enemy.” The question is how, if and when law-abiding, patriotic American citizens will choose to engage that enemy. For the sake of our country, acceptance and acquiescence is not an option.

Copyright © Douglas Hagmann Douglas Hagmann, founder & director of the Northeast Intelligence Network, and a multi-state licensed private investigative agency. Doug began using his investigative skills and training to fight terrorism and increase public awareness through his website.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 143.

#10. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

the passage of SB 1070 by Arizona, and the federal government’s lawsuit to stop its implementation will be regarded the first battle of the 21st century American Revolution.

SB1070 is business as usual. That law does not require employers to check to see if the people they are hiring are legal or illegal. It does not provide for penalties to employers who hire illegals. Therefore, it has no real significance in keeping illegal immigrants out. If implemented it will result in selective petty harassment of a small minority of existing illegal immigrants in my state. The bill is emotional terrorism designed to support a federal immigration reform package that will bring in many millions of guest workers over a long period of time.

This is a Republican bill, sponsored by republicans, passed by repubican legislators and signed by a republican governor. It does not penalize employers for hiring illegals.

and it makes no distinction between people who have been here for a long time and those who come tomorrow.

Consider a fellow named Luis whom I met in March. He's 17 years old. He came where when he was 3. He speaks perfect American english. He graduated from an American high school. In his mind he is American. He has a wife and a child. and he is illegal. His wife is illegal, she's just like him, grew up here, but is illegal. Luis has had 3 encounters with police who asked him his legal status. The first 2 times he lied and said he was legal. The police believed him because of his perfect american english. The third time he was on a greyhound bus and it was federal ICE police who were interrogating every passenger. He chose not to lie this time. But he told the police that he had been here since age 3 and that he had a wife and child. The police did not arrest him out of sympathy. Should Luis be sent back to Mexico. Somewhere that he doesn't even know or remember?

There are huge numbers of people in Arizona who are like Luis. We can't send them home unless we let them stay here. This is their home. The funny thing is that our laws allow them to become legal if only they can afford to pay the legal fees. They can't.

SB1070 does not make any effort to stop new illegals from coming here to be hired. I know people who hire illegals even today.

I'm with Ronald Reagan. Let all the illegals who have held down a job or who have any roots here at all, such as time in an American school, let them stay here and become citizens. If they choose not to become citizens,then send them home. But let them have the chance to stay. They came here because the law allowed employers to hire them. Blame us for that, not them. and at the same time stop all new illegals from coming. How do you do that? You penalize the employers for hiring illegals. SB1070 does no such thing.

Here in Arizona there are many communities filled with illegals. There are many businesses who have valuable employees that are illegals. We're supposed to tear apart our society's fabric and do unjust things by kicking these people out? We're supposed to tell little children that they didn't want their daddies anyway and simply take that man away from his family. But we are supposed to simultaneously bring in guest workers who are like slaves and will be alienated from our society because they are like slaves. Such people who want such things are undesirables themselves.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-04   12:41:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Red Jones (#10)

Consider a fellow named Luis whom I met in March. He's 17 years old. He came where when he was 3. He speaks perfect American english. He graduated from an American high school. In his mind he is American. He has a wife and a child. and he is illegal.

Both Luis and his wife were given an education paid for by US taxpayers.

I would venture to bet we also paid for other entitlements through his and her duration in this nation.

Now AT 17 he has an anchor baby......no accident there I'm sure. And WE PAID for the birth of HIS child. WE paid for the formula and the diapers and the ongoing healthcare. This "poor" illegal surely isn't footing the bill to raise this kid. And you EXPECT us to foot that bill. If we refuse we will get fewer and fewer cases like Luis to consider.

Nobody forced Luis to have a child at 17. In fact, you want to reward irresponsibility. I didn't have children that the US taxpayers foot the bill for, so I don't believe I should pay for Luis and his offspring.

You want the lot of us to feel sorry for Luis and his illegal parents and his illegal status. Well, I feel that we've paid and provided enough. If he isn't on a path to citizenship by now, he NEVER will be. It's just not THAT important, as it wasn't for his parents. Why bother when all the goodies are available without citizenship?

abraxas  posted on  2010-08-04   14:11:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: abraxas (#14)

Both Luis and his wife were given an education paid for by US taxpayers.

where I live the local public schools are 90% mexican. Many of those children are themselves illegal or children of illegals. You take away those children and you are literally taking away a significant part of our community. I don't think responsible governments just export their people en masse like that.

And WE PAID for the birth of HIS child.

I'm under the impression that his parents worked and therefore would have paid taxes. Many people like to assert that illegals work for cash only. In my experience this is completely false. Few employers pay them cash. Most employers have them on the regular payroll which means they pay taxes. why do you want to take away our tax base? We are a struggling state in terms of money?

That fellow Luis himself worked, paid taxes.

Nobody forced Luis to have a child at 17.

The mexicans like to produce children and they start early in life. If you antagonize them, then you are dividing our country up and causing horrible grudges that will haunt us for many decades. They are becoming the majority in many locations whether you or I like it or not.

If he isn't on a path to citizenship by now, he NEVER will be

Luis told me that a lawyer told him that he could get papers to make him actually legal. But that the fee was way beyond his means. He'd like to be a citizen. This is his country.

Government's laws & policies should serve the people who are here. These illegal immigrants were allowed to come. They came. They sincerely contributed and became a part of our community. If government wants to serve the people, then it should serve these people. Government should not be used as a club to bash the people over the head. These people do not belong in Mexico, they belong here. They should be aggressively recruited to be citizens with full rights. In this way they will become loyal and good citizens. Republicans literally want to kick them out and replace them with guest workers. Guest workers are like slaves with no rights. It does not benefit us to have such people here. Let all the people who live here be free.

Remember the German Hessians who were mercenaries in service to the king of england during our revolution? They came here to fight against us. And yet well over half of them stayed and became Americans. that is what we need to do with the mexicans and other illegal immigrants. Another main priority should be to stop new illegals from coming. SB1070 makes no effort to stop new arrivals. Lots of illegals have decided to live here even though they can be sent to Mexico merely by a police encounter. They go years without speaking to a police officer. And a lot of the police officers won't even enforce that law. But when they live here under a murky legal status they will hold a deep grudge that will last for decades. I'm becoming the minority here, this does not help me. I wonder why my fellow Americans have abandoned me - it seems.

one of my mexican associates (Ivan) did have a police encounter about 3 weeks ago. He was sent back to Mexico. who knows what Ivan did to achieve the police encounter. But most of them have a steely determination to avoid police encounters and to simply deal with the police by being otherwise law-abiding and polite. and you know what the large majority of them will survive under SB1070 with that strategy. SB1070 is only emotional terrorism, it is not a serious effort to have a real effect.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-04   14:59:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Red Jones (#17) (Edited)

Government's laws & policies should serve the people who are here. These illegal immigrants were allowed to come. They came. They sincerely contributed and became a part of our community. If government wants to serve the people, then it should serve these people. Government should not be used as a club to bash the people over the head. These people do not belong in Mexico, they belong here. They should be aggressively recruited to be citizens with full rights. In this way they will become loyal and good citizens. Republicans literally want to kick them out and replace them with guest workers. Guest workers are like slaves with no rights. It does not benefit us to have such people here. Let all the people who live here be free.

Ideas like those are what is turning America into a $#it hole, Balkanized nation with 200-300 languages. Of course they belong in Mexico, they are effin TRESSPASSING! What part of that don't you get? If the government laws and policies should serve the people who are here and you include all the illegal aliens in that, what is your cutoff point? How many tens of millions of Chinese or Russians would be acceptable under your plan? How about people from Zimbabwe and Zaire or the Congo? Or is it only illegal alien Mexicans who get your sympathy?

If the illegal aliens actually want to be Americans--which I doubt very much--let them get in line behind people who have been trying to come in with visas and passports and some of whom have been in that line for years. You want to reward trespassers. What would you do if one of them broke into your house, invite him for dinner and to spend the night or whatever amount of time he wanted? If you wouldn't then why should any other American?

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-04   15:04:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: James Deffenbach (#18)

If the illegal aliens actually want to be Americans--which I doubt very much--let them get in line behind people who have been trying to come in with visas and passports

James, I had a neighbor named Jesus who was 31 when he moved away and I lost track of him & his family. His wife named Josie was American Indian. Is that american enough for you? Her dad fought in the Vietnam war. They had 5 kids. I watched those kids grow up. This is their home. None of them were born in Mexico. That guy Jesus came here when he was 5 years old. And at age 30 he's still an illegal. He didn't want to go back to Mexico. English was the only language he spoke. I thought if you marry an American, then you automatically get to stay. I believe only if you have the money to pay can you do that. It is not automatic. He was illegal and he was married to an American Indian.

His children spoke all english, no spanish. But the local school indoctrinated the children that they were Mexican and tried to shame them into thinking they were mexican and speaking spanish. This balkanization is brought on by our own government policies and by our own fears of them. Imagine, children of an American Indian who say that they are Mexican and not American. the child told me that she was taught that at school.

Let's keep the people we have and make them americans. and lets close the door of high levels of immigration.

If you vote for these republicans, then you're voting for high levels of immigration. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is good. In 2006 there was legislation considered in congress and not passed. The Heritage Foundation analyzed that legislation and said it would mean 100 million new immigrants by 2020. all legal. That was republican legislation. Many of those new immigrants would be crimped in their legal status and not really free. What good does that do anyone except employers who want slaves? Why are slave-owners respected?

I disagree with you that we should be bringing large numbers ofpeople in. Only small numbers and only for family reunification. None for employers. The same people so keen on bashing the illegals want guest workers for employers. I say lets use free labor only.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-04   16:33:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Red Jones (#42)

James, I had a neighbor named Jesus who was 31 when he moved away and I lost track of him & his family. His wife named Josie was American Indian. Is that american enough for you?

The American Indian? Sure, she is American enough. Your illegal alien? No. He is not an American at all. Just another criminal who jumped the line ahead of other people.

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-04   19:47:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: James Deffenbach (#76)

Your illegal alien? No. He is not an American at all. Just another criminal who jumped the line ahead of other people.

he was 5 years old walking across the desert with his mom & dad. and you say he should've ran away from them and stayed in Mexico because of a law made in washington. 5-year olds moving to a new place el norte are not criminals. and when he came of school age he went to school. and as time went on he learned to speak english as his primary language because that is what his friends spoke. by the time he graduated from high school english was his main language. he spoke so little spanish he practically forgot how to speak it. when was he supposed to go home to mexico during this whole process to avoid being a criminal?

I guess I just don't blame the illegal immigrants for their crimes enough to think of them as being 'criminal' in a conventional sense. Technically he's a criminal. but no jury will convict a 5-year old for staying with his mom and dad. I tell you in all honesty that none of the illegal immigrants would be considered criminals to be jailed if a jury voted on their fate. a jury might vote to deport them, but not to jail them.

Like I told JT, people break the law every day. There's too many laws.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-04   20:33:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Red Jones (#91)

Like I told JT, people break the law every day. There's too many laws.

Sure there are too many laws. I doubt you would get any argument about that from any sane person. But I think most Americans will argue with you that we don't need a bunch of people who think it is ok for them to just waltz across the border without going through the proper channels. If you think that is ok what makes the border jumpers you are defending better than the people who are trying to get in and doing it the way they're supposed to? I had to get a visa and passport when I traveled outside the US, so are the illegals you are taking up for better than me? And if so why?

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-04   20:46:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: James Deffenbach (#93)

If you think that is ok what makes the border jumpers you are defending better than the people who are trying to get in and doing it the way they're supposed to?

I don't think they're better. But they're here. they cut in line. but they got here. once here, it is hard to send them back. in part because they become a part of the community and you don't want to harm the community. In part because you have to catch them to send them back and after so much time goes by they become more a part of the community. They benefited by cutting in line. it doesn't make them better, but they still got that benefit of being here.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-04   21:32:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Red Jones (#97)

Let me tell you about my community that's real cold in the winter. There are people who've lived with no heat from a utility company because they couldn't afford the bill. I personally know of 3 separate households and that's just the ones I know of. Because of illegals, it's hard to find work except through a temp agency. You're emotional pitches on behalf of those who have been pulling our country down to such straits are really not going over well with me.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-05   2:57:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: GreyLmist (#101)

You're emotional pitches

it should be 'your emotional pitches'.

the illegals are human beings. Many have been here for a long time, some over 20 years doing jobs. many have children here. they should be respected.

the illegals were invited here by the government that created a legal procedure for employers to hire them. Employers today are not penalized for hiring illegals. there is no serious talk among politicians to make laws causing employers to be penalized for hiring illegals. Instead many politicians want an endless stream of guest workers. Don't blame me for that situation.

Ever since 1986 when the government passed a law that allows employers to hire illegals and not be penalized for it I've advocated changing the laws to stop employers from hiring new illegals. I don't see how you could read what I wrote above without picking up on that.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   12:30:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Red Jones (#106) (Edited)

Me @ #101: Let me tell you about my community that's real cold in the winter. There are people who've lived with no heat from a utility company because they couldn't afford the bill. I personally know of 3 separate households and that's just the ones I know of. Because of illegals, it's hard to find work except through a temp agency. You're emotional pitches on behalf of those who have been pulling our country down to such straits are really not going over well with me.

You quoting me: You're emotional pitches

You: it should be 'your emotional pitches'.

Really? You think that's "emotional pitches"? Gosh, that's my one and only post in this thread among your reams of sympathy for the illegals who've been raiding and hoarding our dwindling inventory of jobs for themselves, while legal Americans are being impoverished to the point of freezing to death due to the drain on our economy -- which you apparently want to blame on everyone but illegals -- and you dare call others here psychotic and idiot?

If I wanted to get emotional, I could have gone into monstrous details like the checkpoint here to prevent people from even hauling firewood to keep warm and alive because there might be bugs in it that could harm trees; like the "law" that people can't even sleep in their vehicles with the motor and heater running to keep warm and alive in the winter if they've had a couple of beers and that's the only shelter they can afford due to unemployment, or they don't want to risk their lives and others by driving (especially in bad weather) to a homeless shelter in a broken down piece of junk they can't afford to repair, or risk a DUI ordeal they can't afford -- which can shrink their chances of employability thereafter to practically nil. Judicial genocide is what that is. Then there's the hunting and fishing license laws, for bureaucratic genocide examples, which means you should just starve if you're too poor due to unemployment or under-employment to afford the fees, can't get food stamps, etc., and can't find an open soup kitchen or a food pantry charity; and so on and so on.

If you seriously feel a few abbreviated and understated sentences describing extremely critical conditions for legal Americans in my community amounts to "emotional pitches" after all of your melodramatic orations ad nauseum about endangerments to your community of illegals, I'll just smirk at your bleeding- heart booklets on this issue and look for the posts by more rational commentators.

You: the illegals are human beings. Many have been here for a long time, some over 20 years doing jobs. many have children here. they should be respected.

There you go again with the violin strings. Americans are human beings too, so are their children whose quality of life largely depends on them as providers, and this is our country. Illegals who have been here a long time blocking jobs from Americans, as well as breaking our immigration laws, do not deserve respect for that from anyone cognizant of the criminal situation who isn't aiding and abetting it like you are.

You: the illegals were invited here by the government that created a legal procedure for employers to hire them. Employers today are not penalized for hiring illegals. there is no serious talk among politicians to make laws causing employers to be penalized for hiring illegals. Instead many politicians want an endless stream of guest workers. Don't blame me for that situation.

Ever since 1986 when the government passed a law that allows employers to hire illegals and not be penalized for it I've advocated changing the laws to stop employers from hiring new illegals. I don't see how you could read what I wrote above without picking up on that.

The Federal government has no Constitutional authority to do anything but prohibit migration and to protect the states from invasion, such as by illegals. Guest workers harm the economy in addition to illegals. Changing the status of illegals to guest workers is like reshuffling to call the same socio- economic drain dilemna a different name. Guest workers should cost employers more than Americans, with the difference going to reparations for Americans thrown out of the workforce by them.

I read what you wrote. You are an Enabler speaking out of both sides of your mouth to distract attention from the illegals that employers wouldn't even be able to hire if they wanted to, if they were all arrested and deported like they should be. Your argument amounts to: Americans should endure the abuse of our system by illegals without viewing them as more troublesome than misunderstood whipping posts because they mostly mean well and are just being used by eclectic abusers on-the-loose as the means to bullwhip us into poverty and whatnot through no fault of their own. So, we should do nothing but grin and bear it and reward them -- make more laws for the bad bourgeoise because they'll be sure to respect those monetary threat nuisances much more than our immigration laws and all of the other laws they subvert. Then scofflaws would stop shielding abuser companies profiteering by illegal alien imports, like they cover for other white collar crimes and accomplices. Yeah, sure /s and it seems to be your scofflaw wish to shield every illegally imported "whip" working for them.

You want us to embrace those "poor undocumented whips and whipping posts", as you have, like they're our people and respecters of our nation but they aren't and no "Amnesty" moves by rogues or more laws on employers will "make it ok."

Done with editing this post.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-10   18:50:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Red Jones (#137) (Edited)

Red Jones: Ever since 1986 when the government passed a law that allows employers to hire illegals and not be penalized for it I've advocated changing the laws to stop employers from hiring new illegals. I don't see how you could read what I wrote above without picking up on that.

Just linking some related commentary from another 4um topic here as FYI.

The New Teamwork: American Judges and Prosecutors
.
the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement raid on the Agriprocessors kosher meatpacking plant
.
The Bush administration wanted to make a statement to its conservative base regarding illegal immigrants being employed in the United States and it chose to make an example of Rubashkin and Agriprocessors.

Keep in mind that the feds can do the same to any business, even those businesses that absolutely operate above board in every way. [sic] and don’t think they don’t do this.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-11   21:55:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Red Jones (#138) (Edited)

You quoting me: You're emotional pitches

You: it should be 'your emotional pitches'

Belated thanks for that typo correction. Now here's some excerpted Reuters news from Florida:

Florida AG proposes tougher illegal immigrant curbs

By Barbara Liston

ORLANDO | Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:38pm EDT

ORLANDO (Reuters) - Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum on Wednesday proposed tougher curbs against illegal migrants in his melting-pot state which he said would go "one step further" than a similar contested Arizona law.
.
"Florida will not be a sanctuary state for illegal aliens," added McCollum, accompanied by Representative Will Snyder.

The legislation will require Florida law enforcement officials to check a suspected illegal immigrant's status in the course of a stop, or a violation of another law. This goes beyond the existing situation in the state where officers are allowed to check immigration status, but not required to.
.
"I think Arizona is going to want this law," McCollum said.
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According to his office, McCollum's proposed Florida legislation offers more teeth than the Arizona law by giving judges and law enforcement officers more tools in dealing with illegal immigrants, from bond rulings through to sentencing.
.
In addition, the bill requires Florida businesses to check on immigration status of workers. [end excerpts]

-------------

It goes on to say that there are 11 million working illegals in the US. Probably a low estimate that doesn't even include all the others who aren't working and are on our doles.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-11   22:35:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: GreyLmist (#139)

In addition, the bill requires Florida businesses to check on immigration status of workers.

that is the magic ingredient that I would like to see in the Arizona bill and in the federal policy too. Without forcing employers to check immigration status you are just inviting employers to hire illegals. If the employers are invited to hire illegals, then it seems like to me that the illegal immigrants themselves are almost invited here.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-11   23:56:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Red Jones (#140)

Arizona could pass a new law modeled after the Florida blueprint. Maybe it will. Would be good if you could promote that model there some.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-12   0:22:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: GreyLmist (#141)

If Arizona passed a law requiring that all employers e-verify for new employees and then gave large penalties to anyone hiring an illegal, then I'd be happy about that. I think it would help a lot of people in Arizona.

Most Republicans favor guest workers over free labor. That is their track record. Guest workers are like slaves in that their legal status in this country depends on their employer. In America the employers decide who to give the work visa to, not the government. In the minds of managers working at such companies the guest workers become property. In the minds of the managers the illegals are like property too. You can pay illegals less money than legals. They are also frequently very desperate and will work very hard to hang onto a position even for low pay.

It used to be normal that history textbooks taught young americans that slavery and indentured servitude were bad for our country. Free labor is more effective than slave labor. Free labor costs more, but that is good for the economy and you'll have much more progress with free labor. If you don't believe me, then just look at the old south of 1850 and ask why all the successful factories were being built in the north at that time. The south had slave labor, you'd think the south could excel at factories. But it could not. They tried. The factories in the south always were staffed with slave labor because the investors could not imagine that free labor was more economical. Free labor is better in every way than slave labor. We learned that as a nation. and now, it is a lesson forgotten. The Republicans want unlimited guest workers. That is very dangerous to us as a people. A huge group of guest workers in our country would suppress wages for many people, create unemployment and divide our country up.

I've tried to communicate to people here that I have personally witnessed trades contractors in the construction industry preferring to hire illegals over Americans. and this is today. They do not fear the law. The law penalizes the illegals themselves for being here, it does not penalize the employers for hiring them. The law should do the opposite.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-12   0:39:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Red Jones (#142) (Edited)

I could debate with you a long time on the "Civil War" era but check out the link I posted for you to the 4um topic The New Teamwork: American Judges and Prosecutors to see how businesses that hire illegals certainly can be shut down and more for doing so.

[Correcting my "dilemna" typo.] Like I said at #137: Changing the status of illegals to guest workers is like reshuffling to call the same socio-economic drain dilemma a different name. Guest workers should cost employers more than Americans, with the difference going to reparations for Americans thrown out of the workforce by them.

Then there wouldn't be so much incentive to hire them.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-12   2:02:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 143.

#144. To: GreyLmist (#143)

Guest workers should cost employers more than Americans, with the difference going to reparations for Americans thrown out of the workforce by them.

you and I, we do not dictate to government. Government dictates to us. The purpose of guest workers is to provide a less expensive source of labor that employers feel comfortable with. Employers do not feel comfortable with free people who can quit the employment and go work elsewhere.

Many of our elected leaders are engaged in an effort to bring us a permanent stream of guest workers. Guest workers are like a poison to our country because they will poison the job market. Just as illegal immigrants do. They will also be very divisive to our country as we'll have a large group of foreign people in our country who do not have legal rights. People over time will recognize this as being wrong and will want to legalize the guest workers. While others will want to permanently bash them.

The debate among republicans is whether we should send all the illegals home and replace them with guest workers or should we turn the existing illegals into guest workers and also get more guest workers. Nobody on the republican side even wants to use free labor instead of semi-slave labor.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-12 08:08:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 143.

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