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Immigration
See other Immigration Articles

Title: Arizona: A “Revolutionary” Line in the Sand?
Source: CanadaFreePress.com
URL Source: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/26124
Published: Aug 4, 2010
Author: Doug Hagmann
Post Date: 2010-08-04 10:10:35 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 1752
Comments: 144

Arizona: A “Revolutionary” Line in the Sand?
By Doug Hagmann
August 3, 2010

I believe that history will show that the passage of SB 1070 by Arizona, and the federal government’s lawsuit to stop its implementation will be regarded the first battle of the 21st century American Revolution. Although not a single shot was fired- yet, the battle lines have clearly been drawn. Never before in the modern history of our country have all of the elements been in place for a war between our government and the citizenry of the United States. We stand at a proverbial and historic flashpoint as Obama plans to use the foot soldiers created by “comprehensive immigration reform,” whether achieved by law or mandate, to implement his socialist agenda for America.

Transforming the United States into a socialist nation

While the process of transforming the America known by our parents and grandparents to a socialist colony has been in progress for a half-century at the hands of Marxists, Socialists and Progressives, the Obama administration has put the Balkanization of America and the polarization of its citizens along racial, political and ideological lines on the fast track. And at least for now, he’s got the backing of Congress to advance his agenda of radical change. That was never so evident than on May 20th when the dictator of a corrupt, third world country was given a sickening, treasonous standing ovation in the halls of Congress for attacking the proposed legislation of an American sovereign state to uphold the laws of our country.

Regardless of whatever legislative support he might currently enjoy, evidence has shown that he is actively considering a back door strategy that would circumvent the need for congressional approval. More importantly, it would also circumvent the need for approval from the citizens of the U.S. Once in place, the amnesty of millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. would create a formidable electoral force to keep the Progressives in power under the pretext of free elections. The talk of altruistic motives of immigration and the joys and benefits of multiculturalism is nothing more than a smokescreen for power and control on the path to transforming the United States into a socialist nation.

Hart-Celler Act, Chain Migration

To understand how we got to this point in our national history, the groundwork for the transformation of our country was laid in 1965 with the passage of the Hart-Celler Act, which was signed into law by then President Lyndon Johnson. As Mark Levin details in his best-selling book Liberty and Tyranny, that single piece of legislation, as part of the Great Society, laid “the foundation for radically altering the character of American society and the relationship of the governed to their government.” During the debate of the bill on the floor of the Senate, Levin noted that Senator Kennedy insisted that the ethnic mix of the U.S. would not be changed, nor would America be inundated with immigrants from any one country or area.” In his assessment of the debate, Mark Levin wrote “it is hard to believe that they were not intentionally deceiving the public.” Indeed.

That bill caused a significant change in immigration that essentially created the current situation in the U.S. It introduced “chain migration,” which radically altered the “historical basis for making immigration decisions.” As written by Mr. Levin, “The emphasis would no longer be on the preservation of American society and the consent of the governed; now aliens themselves would decide who comes to the United States through family reunification (emphasis mine). The act also eliminated national quotas for immigration, opening the floodgates for immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America.

Consider that as a result of the 1965 immigration reform and deliberate lack of immigration enforcement, nearly 1 in 3 immigrants living in the U.S. today is here illegally. Additionally, legal immigration increased from 2.5 million in the 1950’s to over 10 million in the 1990’s. In 2007, the immigrant population in the U.S. reached a record 37.9 million and today accounts for 1 in 8 of all U.S. residents. In contrast, immigrants accounted for 1 in 21 of all U.S. residents in 1970.

9 percent of the population of Mexico resides in the United States

According to a 2004 report by the Pew Hispanic Center and detailed in Liberty and Tyranny, roughly 9 percent of the population of Mexico resides in the United States. Fifty seven percent of all illegal immigrants are Mexican, and another 24 percent are from other Latin American countries. In less than 40 years, it is estimated that Hispanic school-aged children will comprise the majority of public school students in the U.S.

While many proponents of immigration argue that the immigrants are here to assimilate and contribute to the United States, a 2008 study by the Manhattan Institute determined that the current level of assimilation is at a record low. Perhaps this is most evident by the fact that more than 55 million individuals living in the U.S. speak a language other than English, including over 34 million who speak Spanish. It is evident that assimilation is not a priority. The establishment of ethnic conclaves within the U.S. is an example of the lack of desire to assimilate into the fabric of American society.

In addition to the social and cultural effects of immigration as a whole, illegal immigrants are being aided by our own government in transferring money out of the United States. In 2006, illegal aliens sent an estimated $45 billion from the U.S. to their countries of origin. Last year, thanks to the assistance of the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury, Mexicans alone living and working in the U.S. transferred between $21.9 and $25 billion to the Mexican economy. Under the program called Directo a Mexico, U.S. commercial banks enable illegal aliens to transfer money through the Federal Reserve’s own automated clearinghouse, which is linked to the Mexican central bank Banco de Mexico. The illegal alien is also given an ATM card that can be used in Mexican banks in the event of their deportation.

The outflow of U.S. dollars to Mexico

The outflow of U.S. dollars to Mexico is second only to Mexico’s oil industry in the amount of revenue produced. It should be no wonder, then, that the Mexican government has no interest in working with U.S. authorities to secure our border or to enforce our immigration laws. In fact, it is the ultimate goal of the global elite to erase our borders and implement a “North American Union” as a step to achieving global governance.

Illegal immigration is a big business, and not just for Mexico. It is estimated that $18-25 billion is spent by state governments on welfare programs to illegal aliens each year, and about $2.2 billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs for illegal aliens. And additional $2.5 billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. The drain on the American economy by individuals living illegally in the United States is a significant threat that will lead to our demise.

There should be no doubt that illegal aliens also pose a security risk to our country. First and foremost, they are living and working in this country illegally—contrary to the laws of the United States. And contrary to the Progressive party line, the proponents of multiculturalism, and civil rights and advocacy organizations that subjugate the rights of Americans to their own agendas, crimes committed by illegal aliens are statistically higher than legal immigrants or U.S. citizens. In 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a study it conducted of 55,322 incarcerated illegal aliens. The study population averaged 8 arrests each. Ninety seven percent were arrested more than once, and 26% had over 11 arrests each. Each illegal alien averaged 13 separate offenses and 24% of those offenses were for drug crimes. About 12% were for murder, robbery, assault and sexually related crimes, and 21% of offenses were immigration offenses. Other offenses included property related offenses, traffic violations, fraud and obstruction of justice.

Illegal aliens arrested for less serious crimes and released pending a hearing at a future date often fail to appear. According to US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, there were 557,762 fugitive alien cases were listed as “unsolved” at the end of 2008. Furthermore, illegal immigrants with extensive criminal records and multiple deportations are often permitted to remain in the U.S. by activist judges who are sympathetic to their plight.

The rampant problem of illegal immigration can easily be solved not by creating new legislation or enacting a complex system of immigration reform. As we observed in the weeks leading up to the implementation of SB 1070 in Arizona as law, the mere threat of realistic enforcement was sufficient to cause an exodus of illegal aliens from that state. As illustrated by the incoherent ruling of a political hack legislating from the bench, Arizona’s attempt to secure their state was undermined in a crafty and carefully executed political ploy. It is no coincidence that the appeal process will extend beyond the November midterm elections. It is the political hubris of a socialist dictator imposing his agenda against the will of the majority of this country’s citizenry.

National Council of La Raza, John McCain, Hillary Clinton

The failure to effectively address the issue of illegal immigration is not limited to any one political party; many Republicans as well as a vast majority of Democrats are complicit in failing to secure America’s safety and sovereignty. Consider that the National Council of La Raza, the largest Hispanic advocacy group in the United States, honored Senator John McCain in 1999. During her presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton appointed a senior member of La Raza to her staff, and Obama appointed a La Raza leader as the director of the Office of Internal Affairs. Undoubtedly, this virulent pro-amnesty group enjoys a significant influence over public policy in American government. Funding of this group finds numerous foundations and individuals who espouse and promote a global ideology and “one world governance” over national sovereignty as key contributors.

Despite the above statistics, those who demand immigration enforcement and the rule of law are often labeled as racists and xenophobes. American cities and states like Arizona are reeling from the adverse financial and social effects of illegal immigration and unfettered legal immigration. They lack help from the federal government, which is more intent on creating an electoral majority to ensure the continuation of their power to facilitate the socialist makeover and takeover of the United States. Obama and his justice department are siding with criminals against the citizens of America. Arizona is attempting to restore order to a system of chaos created by the federal government. Instead of welcoming the help and choosing to uphold the U.S. Constitution, the Obama administration is imposing a socialist dictatorship and has drawn a line in the Arizona sand. The question is now whether that line becomes “Ground Zero” for this century’s American Revolution—a fight against the Balkanization of our country, and the eradication of our borders, our sovereignty and ultimately, our nation.

As noted by one Arizona Sheriff, “our own government has become our enemy.” The question is how, if and when law-abiding, patriotic American citizens will choose to engage that enemy. For the sake of our country, acceptance and acquiescence is not an option.

Copyright © Douglas Hagmann Douglas Hagmann, founder & director of the Northeast Intelligence Network, and a multi-state licensed private investigative agency. Doug began using his investigative skills and training to fight terrorism and increase public awareness through his website.

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#105. To: Eric Stratton (#13)

You'll get no argument from me, although I will suggest that at some point there may be limited safe havens and greater demand for those that do exist than supply.

Right, at which point they will be divided into two groups; the ultra rich and the ordinary rich, aka the poor.

Bill Gates and David Rockefeller will be accommodated and the schmucky owner of White Way Linen Service of Cleveland (who clears a paltry 2 mil a yr) won't.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-05   14:45:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: GreyLmist (#101)

You're emotional pitches

it should be 'your emotional pitches'.

the illegals are human beings. Many have been here for a long time, some over 20 years doing jobs. many have children here. they should be respected.

the illegals were invited here by the government that created a legal procedure for employers to hire them. Employers today are not penalized for hiring illegals. there is no serious talk among politicians to make laws causing employers to be penalized for hiring illegals. Instead many politicians want an endless stream of guest workers. Don't blame me for that situation.

Ever since 1986 when the government passed a law that allows employers to hire illegals and not be penalized for it I've advocated changing the laws to stop employers from hiring new illegals. I don't see how you could read what I wrote above without picking up on that.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   12:30:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Red Jones (#106)

the illegals are human beings. Many have been here for a long time, some over 20 years doing jobs. many have children here. they should be respected.

...and deported in a polite respectful but highly efficient manner....

scrapper2  posted on  2010-08-07   12:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: scrapper2 (#107)

deported

that is just a fantasy that you have. Many politicians say they are going to turn the illegals into guest workers and they're going to create a pipeline of new guest workers for employers. People who talk like you frequently vote for such politicians.

only a small minority of the illegals are being sent back.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   12:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Red Jones, 4 (#106)

Employers today are not penalized for hiring illegals. there is no serious talk among politicians to make laws causing employers to be penalized for hiring illegals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR2010052804319.html

1070 was "serious talk" regarding the hiring of Illegals. Obama & company stood in opposition. Red, states like yours can't afford the social cost of illegals not to mention the cost of the crime they commit. If you can't get yourself to recognize that predicate illegal felons shouldn't be supported by American taxpayers, I'm on Mars and you Venus on this issue

Administration opposes Arizona law that penalizes hiring of illegal immigrants

By Robert Barnes Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, May 29, 2010

The Obama administration on Friday urged the Supreme Court to review and set aside an Arizona law that sanctions employers who hire illegal immigrants, saying it would disrupt the "careful balance" that Congress struck in federal immigration law.

-Snip

OBAMA'S CHERNOBYL

Spew, Baby, Spew

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-08-07   12:45:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Red Jones (#108)

only a small minority of the illegals are being sent back.

And you're happy that is the case and you voted for politicians who will ensure that unskilled free loading law breakers will stay in our nation taking free welfare, medical, educational benefits while our nation's econmy is nose diving under the weight of high unemployment rolls of US citizens and legal residents.

Nice.

scrapper2  posted on  2010-08-07   12:47:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Jethro Tull (#109)

JT, I did not advocate giving taxpayer money to illegal immigrant felons.

The reality in my state is that we have lots of illegals that have driven down wages and destroyed opportunity, we have politicians who paved the way for that to happen, John McCain voted to let the illegals in in 1986, McCain is still a prominent politician, we have new politicians who want an unlimited stream of guest workers. We don't have any politicial leaders who want employers to have to use citizen labor from within our country. and you all are blaming me for this. But I'm not a politician.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   13:09:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: scrapper2 (#110)

you're psychotic.

it is a simple fact that few illegals are being sent back. I wasn't cheering over that fact. Someone else said that SB1070 would send people back and that I was unhappy over this. I was telling them that very very few are going to be sent back over SB1070 and very few are being sent back.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   13:12:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Red Jones (#112)

you're psychotic.

My my, red, what bad manners you picked up while sojourning at the nest...

scrapper2  posted on  2010-08-07   13:16:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Jethro Tull (#109)

Administration opposes Arizona law that penalizes hiring of illegal immigrants

Jethro, that is a headline from a newspaper. The SB1070 law in Arizona provides no penalty at all to employers. Arizona has passed legislation prior to SB1070 that included some penalties to employers for hiring illegals. But those penalties are very difficult to trigger. they start out being so light that on a first offense it is meaningless. then the 2'nd and 3'rd offenses escalate, but they escalate to nowhere. One business on the 3'rd time they were caught hiring illegals was made to shut down their operation for 1 day. and that was after they hired individual illegals back that the government had previously deported. Arizona law is like federal law, it arranges for the illegal immigrant to be punished, not really the employers.

We Americans have been the victims of dis-information on this issue for a very long period of time. Back in 1986 it was decided that employers could hire illegals with no penalty. Back then Senator McCain was a congressman and he voted for it. he's still a prominent politician and yet he voted for the illegals to be welcomed here. and he leads the people who are against the illegals. Dysfunctional or what?

and none of the politicians are even talking about penalizing employers for hiring illegals. Instead, the talk is to have guest workers and beef up the border.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   13:18:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: scrapper2 (#113)

I can't help it if you're psychotic. you accuse me of things that are from your mind.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   13:19:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Red Jones (#111)

I did not advocate giving taxpayer money to illegal immigrant felons.

The cost of their incarceration can be googled by state. As I mentioned a few days back, illegals comprise app 30% of the prison population.

Did you read the article from the WP I linked above? Obama doesn't want sanctions against businesses who hire illegals. Obama is far from alone; the elite of both parties have us in this quandary. My point is 1070 is the voice of the people. If our vote (see Prop 8 in CA) can be changed by a political connected lawyer in a black robe, we are headed for insurrection. A trust in the voting system is all that keeps us from Banana Republic status.

OBAMA'S CHERNOBYL

Spew, Baby, Spew

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-08-07   13:26:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: All (#115)

this article at the top says that SB1070 in Arizona is somehow revolutionary. It is not, it is business as usual. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deceived. SB1070 is emotional terrorism and drama. It will hardly result in anybody deported who otherwise wouldn't have been deported. The vast majority of existing illegals will survive it. The politicians who say they're against illegals are against illegals. They want the illegals to be slaves. That is why they let the illegals come here in the first place. that is why the illegals are allowed to stay. the politicians are planning to turn these people into guest workers. Guest workers are the same as indentured servants. They're here to drive wages down and give the employers a comfortable position where they don't have to deal with labor. This new guest worker institution is going to be permanent. The condition that you despise is becoming permanent. and anybody who speaks against this you will oppose. because you are so deceived. and when anyone tries to straighten you out, you will complain. you'd rather have people lie to you.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   13:30:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Jethro Tull (#116)

My point is 1070 is the voice of the people.

President Obama is not for employer sanctions you said! surprise surprise. He's republican on all the other issues too.

I wish that SB1070 were the voice of the people. JT, about 2 weeks ago I listened to a conversation where a sub-contractor was talking about how he had to increase his workforce by 5 men. I listened to the top managers of that small company talk about how to acquire people. This company had decided to hire some Americans in March because of the law. They have since decided to have no fear of the law. SB1070 means nothing in practical reality. the employers still hire illegal.

Also, people assume that americans want to kick illegal immigrants out of the country. When Americans are confronted with the choice of reporting illegals or not reporting them, the overwhelming majority of Americans decide not to report them. this is one of the things we've found out in Arizona. Many employers hire illegals. very very few are reported for it.

It is easy for government to identify who is illegal by reviewing payroll data. The illegals are not 'off the books', they're right in the main payroll system. I maintain that they should be identified, that those who have been here for any period of time should be given a choice to stay and become citizens or to leave. And that the employers should be heavily penalized for hiring new illegals.

this solution that I've given you is the only way we will keep new arrivals out. The 'anti-illegal' politicians are not going to achieve that. They are going to achieve a pipeline of indentured servants which is exactly what we have under the current system where employers can hire illegal immigrants.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-07   13:41:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Red Jones (#115)

I can't help it if you're psychotic. you accuse me of things that are from your mind.

And why am I not surprised that you try to explain away your rudeness with more rudeness?

Calling me a psychotic was the only choice you had? Rightttt....

Here are but a few other possibilities you could have contemplated:

a. that you did not articulate your point of view very clearly

b. that I misunderstood your post

etc, etc, etc

Carry on, red...btw, nice color choice to include with your net name......

scrapper2  posted on  2010-08-07   14:13:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Red Jones (#117) (Edited)

I like a lot of your posts as you seem to understand the root cause of failure for the US (concerning illegal immigration) and so far I have not commented. But your ideas for addressing solutions is SPOT-ON as you have claimed that border security to eliminate the problems should be at the border and not upstream long after the issues manifest. In large part, I agree because it is better to back the illegals at the front door as opposed to long after they have been assimilated within society.

But, I have a few comments regarding your recent post:

this article at the top says that SB1070 in Arizona is somehow revolutionary. It is not

This is true. Missouri has had these forms of state laws in effect for years.

SB1070 is emotional terrorism and drama. It will hardly result in anybody deported who otherwise wouldn't have been deported. The vast majority of existing illegals will survive it.

Probably true. However, out of the 400,000 pre-existing illegals about 40,000+ have moved out of state, meaning the law SHOWS they are no longer wanted in AZ. I say BRAVO! and if CA would enact similar legislation ( which they have based on Proposition 87)..... however, in CA we have laws already on the books as MO does regarding illegals:

Below is a copy of section 834b of the California Penal Code that deals with EXISTING immigration law enforcement at the local level.

(a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws.

(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the following: (1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding documentation to indicate his or her legal status. (2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or leave the United States. (3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal status and provide any additional information that may be requested by any other public entity.

(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city, county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly prohibited.

The politicians who say they're against illegals are against illegals. They want the illegals to be slaves.

Not many want illegals removed from the US. Most want to work some kind of amnesty program which only ensures MORE illegals here.

That is why they let the illegals come here in the first place.

Cheap labor is the crime of capatalism out of control.

the politicians are planning to turn these people into guest workers. Guest workers are the same as indentured servants. They're here to drive wages down and give the employers a comfortable position where they don't have to deal with labor. This new guest worker institution is going to be permanent. The condition that you despise is becoming permanent.

It certainly appears that way. No one seems to have the courage to deal with the issue unlike Tom Tancredo.

I just want the nation to enforce already existing laws. And not look the other way. We are in some troubling times and illegals are not wanted in America .... of course, I have been involved with the MM for years and was on the AZ border to see the issues first hand. It is appalling by first hand rancher's discussions of what illegals do their personal property rights; which is a reflection of how a nation regards property rights as there is little enforcement.

edit: added hot link to EXISTING CA code.......

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-07   14:27:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Red Jones, scrapper2 (#115)

psy•cho•sis si-"ko-ses noun pl psy•cho•ses -'sez [NL] (1847) : fundamental mental derangement (as schizophrenia) characterized by defective or lost contact with reality

i don't think the definition of psychosis/psychotic applies to scrapper at all, Red.

christine  posted on  2010-08-07   16:38:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Red Jones (#118)

I maintain that they should be identified, that those who have been here for any period of time should be given a choice to stay and become citizens or to leave.

So, according to your logic, if an illegal alien has been in America in violation of the immigration laws for a long time he should be rewarded, while those who have been here a lesser time should be punished? And I suppose if it can be shown that someone has robbed, oh, ten banks and gotten away with it he shouldn't be punished, but if someone else gets caught the first time he should go to prison for life? Ok, I think I see where you're coming from.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-07   16:54:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: psusa, hondo68, Eric Stratton (#0)

do you see what i mean. framing sb1070 vs a 'socialist marxist nation' when the signer of 1070 , brewer, is an avowed socialist. openly! cops have always been able to check immigration status. it has never been 'illegal'. the u.s. supreme court ruled affirming this decades ago. you are the only ones who comprehend & acknowledge this simple fact. then he quotes MARK LEVIN of all people. levin, rabid bush apologist & jew neocon! hero & leader? ha! this reactionary hysteria outlined in this article is an example of why uh-murika is f-ed.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-08-07   17:56:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: scrapper2 (#110)

And you're happy that is the case and you voted for politicians who will ensure that unskilled free loading law breakers will stay in our nation taking free welfare, medical, educational benefits while our nation's econmy is nose diving under the weight of high unemployment rolls of US citizens and legal residents.

your accusations against me are 100% false and it seems malicious too. that is why I will say again that you are a psychotic individual (at best). we wonder why things are screwed up, but we have psychotic citizens trying to play politics. what do you expect?

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   8:24:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: buckeroo (#120)

Tom Tancredo

Tom tancredo sponsored legislation whereby the US government would set targets for average wages in different work categories. he thinks that to make the US economy work we must be more competitive, to do this government must push wages down. Tancredo's legislation would have government giving employers work visas specifically for the targeted work categories, bringing people in our country to work in those fields until the wage targets are met.

In other words Tancredo favors unlimited new indentured servants brought to our country specifically to undermine us.

I suggest that people who think Tancredo is a good leader on this issue are horribly deceived. but such is the nature of our discussion on this issue and others. It is not an accident that we are so deceived.

consider the idiots who support this SB1070 in Arizona thinking it to be a law that will kick illegal immigrants out. That law only makes people upset. and the employers in Arizona are perfectly free to hire illegals. Take this JT guy, he reads a headline in the Washington Post and it says that SB1070 puts sanctions on employers for hiring illegals. let me explain again - SB1070 does not sanction employers in a serious manner. Employers in Arizona hire illegals every single day. they have no fear from the federal gov or the state gov to do that. and here's all these idiots who say they oppose illegal immigrants climbing on the bandwagon of politicians like tancredo and others who support SB1070. I don't go along with the dysfunctional approaches to illegal immigrants, so this idiot scrapper says I love to have a steady stream of illegals coming into this country. I tell him he's psychotic because he is, and christine lectures me that it is not psychotic to imagine things like that. Is this a dysfunctional group of people or what?

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   8:37:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: scrapper2 (#119)

I can't help it if you can't read scrapper. I've articulated plenty fine. You're simply too lazy and your mind doesn't function well. You make accusations against me that can only be explained as psychotic. Don't blame me.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   8:39:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: All (#126)

In my state, Arizona, the republicans about 2 years ago were on a big kick for guest workers. That legislation did not pass, but it showed how the Republicans are in this state. They wanted a state program for guest workers. The federal government said at that time that it was OK that the state could do that.

The mexican consulate assured them they had a very long list of illegal immigrants. these people were going into the guest worker program that was being made and never did become law.

the people who support SB1070 support an endless stream of guest workers who are like indentured servants. This is exactly the same as illegal immigration in that it is done to divide us up and to suppress wages. I've said maybe 10 times on this thread that there are no real sanctions against employers for hiring illegals. I've said over and over and over again that I've actually witnessed that employers in arizona still to this very day hire illegals without any fear of penalty.

no matter how much communication I do I cannot overcome the psychotic desires of people on this web site. they accuse me of supporting this stream of people coming in that we don't want coming in. You cannot stop them unless you penalize the employers for bringing them in. The politicians who tell us that they will protect us from the illegals also tell us they will bring us a steady stream of employees from foreign sources for employers here. Can anyone point to one single politician of either party who wants to impose real sanctions on employers for hiring illegals? Why don't we have such laws? All these politicians who say they're going to protect us from illegal immigrants, why have they not proposed legislation to punish employers for hiring illegals?

We as a people have been lied to massively on this issue. We have almost nobody in the public eye that is on our side. and it is a complication that so many of our people are psychotic and just can't function. look at the idiots jump on this SB1070 band-wagon.

how can you have a political movement with no leaders? Who are our leaders that would rather put americans back to work than give opportunity to foreigners to work here? We don't have such leaders, if you will check, the politicians who say they are against illegals are in favor of guest workers. guest workers are poison, yet this is what the anti-illegal immigrant people are buying into.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   9:03:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Red Jones (#71)

I had to stop reading your bullshit around post 70. You and your mentality are the reason shots will be fired to resolve this situation. You will need to be included in the illegal group. Your mentality surrendered this nation. Period. Removing illegals will be a great start, but the root cause will need to be dealt with also.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-08-08   9:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Red Jones (#127)

Rojo

You long winded nut-jpb

To call you an idiot is disrespectful to all the honest idiots in the world.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-08-08   10:10:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Red Jones (#125) (Edited)

Tom tancredo sponsored legislation whereby the US government would set targets for average wages in different work categories.

Please link that statement with some verifiable fact. I have NEVER heard of the US government setting wage standards for a given class of citizenship.

edit: here is HR4192 by Tancredo (it is the diametric opposite of what you said):

SUMMARY 11/15/2007--Introduced. Optimizing Visa Entry Rules and Demanding Uniform Enforcement Immigration Reform Act of 2007 or the OVERDUE Immigration Reform Act of 2007 - Revises worldwide immigration level and visa allotment provisions, including establishment of specified new nonimmigrant classifications. Provides citizenship or nationality at birth for a person born in the United States only if such child was born to parents, one of whom is: (1) a U.S. citizen or national; or (2) a lawful permanent resident alien. Authorizes the use of the military to help secure the borders. Provides for increases of immigration and border enforcement personnel. Suspends the visa waiver program. Provides criminal penalties and forfeiture for unlawful presence in the United States. Provides for listing of immigration violators in the National Crime Information Center Database. Increases civil and criminal penalties for document fraud, benefit fraud, and false citizenship claims. Sets forth an identification standard for federal benefits. Requires electronic fingerprinting for U.S. passports. Authorizes visa term compliance bonds. Establishes minimum birth certificate standards for federal recognition purposes. Provides for the establishment of electronic birth and death registration systems. Renames the basic employment verification pilot program as the Employment Authorization Status Instant Check or EASI Check system and makes such system permanent and mandatory on a phased-in basis. Increases civil and criminal penalties for employer hiring violations. Provides for temporary social security cards for non-immigrant aliens authorized to work in the United States. Directs the Commissioner of Social Security to notify: (1) a U.S. employer with one or more employees whose social security account number does not match the employee's name or date of birth in Social Security Administration (SSA) records; and (2) an individual whose earnings from two or more employers are being reported under the individual's social security account number. Prohibits social security credit for work performed while unlawfully present in the United States. Makes an individual who submits a federal income tax return that relies on an individual taxpayer identification number in lieu of a social security number ineligible for any tax credit or refund (including the earned income tax credit). Revises provisions respecting: (1) adjustment of status; and (2) temporary protected status. Prohibits federal assistance to a post-secondary educational institution determined to be providing benefits in violation of the provision restricting in-state tuition to aliens unlawfully in the United States. Declares that states and state and local law enforcement personnel have the inherent authority to apprehend, arrest, detain, or transfer to federal custody aliens in the United States in the enforcement of U.S. immigration laws. Directs the Secretary of Homeland Security, upon state request, to provide for the transfer of an illegal alien to federal custody and the reimbursement of related state costs. Authorizes assistance to Cameron University, Lawton, Oklahoma, for a demonstration project to assess the feasibility of establishing a nationwide e-learning training course to be used by state, local, and tribal law enforcement officers to enhance such officers' ability to assist federal immigration officers. Directs the Secretary, within two years, to complete the exit component of the entry and exit data system, (US-VISIT). Prohibits employer deduction from gross income of wages paid to unauthorized aliens. Eliminates: (1) federal reimbursement of emergency health services provided to undocumented aliens after FY2007; and (2) coverage of Mexicans with border crossing cards. Provides funding for eligible providers through FY2013.
Most of us on this website, enjoy FACTUAL and verifiable support of posts when that same support is used in a continuous opinion. Tancredo attempted legislation that limits illegals from many social/welfare programs. And even imposed military force on the border with Mexico to enforce immigration laws. SO, you will have to produce some FACT, now.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-08   10:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: buckeroo (#130)

sorry, I don't have a link for that on Tancredo. but I believe it to be true and I got that from an analysis of the law he proposed. Very often the people who act like our leaders are our enemies.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   11:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Red Jones (#131)

but I believe it to be true

Just tell me what year he proposed the legislation, I will find it, just HR4192 which I hotlinked for you.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-08   11:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: buckeroo (#132)

I wish I knew exactly what year. It was 4-5 years ago. I read an analysis of his legislation and obviously that is where I got this impression.

You will also recall that there was immigration reform legislation under consideration I believe in 2006 where the Heritage Foundation analyzed the legislation and concluded that it would mean 100 million new legal immigrants prior to 2020. That legislation they analyzed was sponsored by republicans and supported by President Bush. My congressman, Jeff Flake, has always supported guest workers strongly. all the republicans in arizona support guest workers. and like I said the republicans in the state legislator even put forth legislation for a state guest worker program. JD Hayworth supports guest workers.

guest workers are the same as allowing illegal immigrants except that it will be legal and permanent. I don't understand my country-men who do not see a parallel between the guest workers that are coming and the indentured servants of the 1600s & 1700's. When I was in school they taught us that indentured servants were similar to slaves.

I cannot abide by my countrymen who say we need guest workers. and when I read on this web site people supporting the arizona republicans' SB1070 I have to feel that these people, my country-men, are horribly deceived.

The solution I've proposed is exactly 100% what Ronald Reagan wanted.

Jethro Tull says if I don't favor kicking out ALL illegals, then I support the situation where 30% of the people in our state prison are illegals. We have lots of mexican mafia related criminal activity in my state. I did not cause that. and if we respect the illegals who should be respected, then this does not mean that I favor criminals being in my state.

Ronald Reagan wanted to forgive all the illegals who have held a job, and let them all have a pathway to citizenship. Reagan also wanted to penalize employers who hired new illegal immigrants. Reagan never achieved this penalty to employers. I've explained over and over and over again - republican leaders in the US Senate would not allow such penalties into the legislation. that is why 25million or more illegals came since 1986. people in america are so stupid, they shout at each other over illegal immigration, but they don't even know (or care) about the traitors among our leaders who let them in.

But what I read was the law was sponsored by Tancredo himself. Why should you be surprised. all republicans are for guest workers. the anti-illegal immigrant movement in america is a joke because its leaders are pro-guest workers. either way - take jobs from americans and give it to foreigners.

what you all don't like about me is that I say a person who has been here for 10 years and held a job during that time is long overdue for being given permanent legal status here. where else we disagree is that I would like to stop new people from coming here. and the people here on this web site prefer ignorance and dysfunctionalism, to complain permanently without ever doing anything to stop the situation. that is my impression at least.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   15:11:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Ragin1 (#128)

you're an idiot. when are the people in our country going to defend themselves? they will never defend themselves from the assault that comes from washington. my state is becoming majority mexican. we're being made to speak spanish. and guys like you just talk and worse yet, you support politicians who want guest workers.

You have to actually have some mental discipline to solve problems. this is a huge obstacle for people on this site. and you wonder why the propaganda is so effective. people can't even use their brains.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   15:17:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Artisan (#123)

you're the only one on this thread who understands what I said.

SB1070 was written by politicians who are anti-American. they say that americans won't work and they need to import guest workers permanently as a result. That is what the arizona republicans who were behind SB1070 think. that is what they proposed doing actually about 2 years ago. all our republican federal congressmen & senators are for guest workers too. I'm opposed to guest workers.

The people on this web site are like bulls, somebody holds a red flag up to a bull and the bull charges. Somebody says that SB1070 is a movement to stop illegals in support of the American cause. and people believe it, then no matter how many times you tell them their response is that it is just too difficult to read and they don't care, etc.

The employers in Arizona today hire illegals all the time with no fear of reprisal from government. you people are complete idiots.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-08   15:21:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Red Jones (#135)

for what it's worth, i agree it is frustrating when people have knee jerk reactions believing that the govt who created this problem will 'save them'. i have posted so much on brewer, pearce, and mainly the fact that no 'special law' is needed to be drafted by each state in the union in order to 'allow' local cops to id illegals. that is the most inane brain dead bullshit i think i have ever heard. 'but.. but.. they NEEDED TO DO *SOMETHING*!', they will reply. ugh. 1070 is a distraction which invited unneeded federal meddling. perhaps by design. you may know the story of Abdon the AZ truck driver who was detained a few months ago, concretely proving my case that 1070 is nonsense & not legally needed.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-08-09   12:43:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Red Jones (#106) (Edited)

Me @ #101: Let me tell you about my community that's real cold in the winter. There are people who've lived with no heat from a utility company because they couldn't afford the bill. I personally know of 3 separate households and that's just the ones I know of. Because of illegals, it's hard to find work except through a temp agency. You're emotional pitches on behalf of those who have been pulling our country down to such straits are really not going over well with me.

You quoting me: You're emotional pitches

You: it should be 'your emotional pitches'.

Really? You think that's "emotional pitches"? Gosh, that's my one and only post in this thread among your reams of sympathy for the illegals who've been raiding and hoarding our dwindling inventory of jobs for themselves, while legal Americans are being impoverished to the point of freezing to death due to the drain on our economy -- which you apparently want to blame on everyone but illegals -- and you dare call others here psychotic and idiot?

If I wanted to get emotional, I could have gone into monstrous details like the checkpoint here to prevent people from even hauling firewood to keep warm and alive because there might be bugs in it that could harm trees; like the "law" that people can't even sleep in their vehicles with the motor and heater running to keep warm and alive in the winter if they've had a couple of beers and that's the only shelter they can afford due to unemployment, or they don't want to risk their lives and others by driving (especially in bad weather) to a homeless shelter in a broken down piece of junk they can't afford to repair, or risk a DUI ordeal they can't afford -- which can shrink their chances of employability thereafter to practically nil. Judicial genocide is what that is. Then there's the hunting and fishing license laws, for bureaucratic genocide examples, which means you should just starve if you're too poor due to unemployment or under-employment to afford the fees, can't get food stamps, etc., and can't find an open soup kitchen or a food pantry charity; and so on and so on.

If you seriously feel a few abbreviated and understated sentences describing extremely critical conditions for legal Americans in my community amounts to "emotional pitches" after all of your melodramatic orations ad nauseum about endangerments to your community of illegals, I'll just smirk at your bleeding- heart booklets on this issue and look for the posts by more rational commentators.

You: the illegals are human beings. Many have been here for a long time, some over 20 years doing jobs. many have children here. they should be respected.

There you go again with the violin strings. Americans are human beings too, so are their children whose quality of life largely depends on them as providers, and this is our country. Illegals who have been here a long time blocking jobs from Americans, as well as breaking our immigration laws, do not deserve respect for that from anyone cognizant of the criminal situation who isn't aiding and abetting it like you are.

You: the illegals were invited here by the government that created a legal procedure for employers to hire them. Employers today are not penalized for hiring illegals. there is no serious talk among politicians to make laws causing employers to be penalized for hiring illegals. Instead many politicians want an endless stream of guest workers. Don't blame me for that situation.

Ever since 1986 when the government passed a law that allows employers to hire illegals and not be penalized for it I've advocated changing the laws to stop employers from hiring new illegals. I don't see how you could read what I wrote above without picking up on that.

The Federal government has no Constitutional authority to do anything but prohibit migration and to protect the states from invasion, such as by illegals. Guest workers harm the economy in addition to illegals. Changing the status of illegals to guest workers is like reshuffling to call the same socio- economic drain dilemna a different name. Guest workers should cost employers more than Americans, with the difference going to reparations for Americans thrown out of the workforce by them.

I read what you wrote. You are an Enabler speaking out of both sides of your mouth to distract attention from the illegals that employers wouldn't even be able to hire if they wanted to, if they were all arrested and deported like they should be. Your argument amounts to: Americans should endure the abuse of our system by illegals without viewing them as more troublesome than misunderstood whipping posts because they mostly mean well and are just being used by eclectic abusers on-the-loose as the means to bullwhip us into poverty and whatnot through no fault of their own. So, we should do nothing but grin and bear it and reward them -- make more laws for the bad bourgeoise because they'll be sure to respect those monetary threat nuisances much more than our immigration laws and all of the other laws they subvert. Then scofflaws would stop shielding abuser companies profiteering by illegal alien imports, like they cover for other white collar crimes and accomplices. Yeah, sure /s and it seems to be your scofflaw wish to shield every illegally imported "whip" working for them.

You want us to embrace those "poor undocumented whips and whipping posts", as you have, like they're our people and respecters of our nation but they aren't and no "Amnesty" moves by rogues or more laws on employers will "make it ok."

Done with editing this post.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-10   18:50:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Red Jones (#137) (Edited)

Red Jones: Ever since 1986 when the government passed a law that allows employers to hire illegals and not be penalized for it I've advocated changing the laws to stop employers from hiring new illegals. I don't see how you could read what I wrote above without picking up on that.

Just linking some related commentary from another 4um topic here as FYI.

The New Teamwork: American Judges and Prosecutors
.
the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement raid on the Agriprocessors kosher meatpacking plant
.
The Bush administration wanted to make a statement to its conservative base regarding illegal immigrants being employed in the United States and it chose to make an example of Rubashkin and Agriprocessors.

Keep in mind that the feds can do the same to any business, even those businesses that absolutely operate above board in every way. [sic] and don’t think they don’t do this.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-11   21:55:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Red Jones (#138) (Edited)

You quoting me: You're emotional pitches

You: it should be 'your emotional pitches'

Belated thanks for that typo correction. Now here's some excerpted Reuters news from Florida:

Florida AG proposes tougher illegal immigrant curbs

By Barbara Liston

ORLANDO | Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:38pm EDT

ORLANDO (Reuters) - Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum on Wednesday proposed tougher curbs against illegal migrants in his melting-pot state which he said would go "one step further" than a similar contested Arizona law.
.
"Florida will not be a sanctuary state for illegal aliens," added McCollum, accompanied by Representative Will Snyder.

The legislation will require Florida law enforcement officials to check a suspected illegal immigrant's status in the course of a stop, or a violation of another law. This goes beyond the existing situation in the state where officers are allowed to check immigration status, but not required to.
.
"I think Arizona is going to want this law," McCollum said.
.
According to his office, McCollum's proposed Florida legislation offers more teeth than the Arizona law by giving judges and law enforcement officers more tools in dealing with illegal immigrants, from bond rulings through to sentencing.
.
In addition, the bill requires Florida businesses to check on immigration status of workers. [end excerpts]

-------------

It goes on to say that there are 11 million working illegals in the US. Probably a low estimate that doesn't even include all the others who aren't working and are on our doles.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-11   22:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: GreyLmist (#139)

In addition, the bill requires Florida businesses to check on immigration status of workers.

that is the magic ingredient that I would like to see in the Arizona bill and in the federal policy too. Without forcing employers to check immigration status you are just inviting employers to hire illegals. If the employers are invited to hire illegals, then it seems like to me that the illegal immigrants themselves are almost invited here.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-11   23:56:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Red Jones (#140)

Arizona could pass a new law modeled after the Florida blueprint. Maybe it will. Would be good if you could promote that model there some.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-12   0:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: GreyLmist (#141)

If Arizona passed a law requiring that all employers e-verify for new employees and then gave large penalties to anyone hiring an illegal, then I'd be happy about that. I think it would help a lot of people in Arizona.

Most Republicans favor guest workers over free labor. That is their track record. Guest workers are like slaves in that their legal status in this country depends on their employer. In America the employers decide who to give the work visa to, not the government. In the minds of managers working at such companies the guest workers become property. In the minds of the managers the illegals are like property too. You can pay illegals less money than legals. They are also frequently very desperate and will work very hard to hang onto a position even for low pay.

It used to be normal that history textbooks taught young americans that slavery and indentured servitude were bad for our country. Free labor is more effective than slave labor. Free labor costs more, but that is good for the economy and you'll have much more progress with free labor. If you don't believe me, then just look at the old south of 1850 and ask why all the successful factories were being built in the north at that time. The south had slave labor, you'd think the south could excel at factories. But it could not. They tried. The factories in the south always were staffed with slave labor because the investors could not imagine that free labor was more economical. Free labor is better in every way than slave labor. We learned that as a nation. and now, it is a lesson forgotten. The Republicans want unlimited guest workers. That is very dangerous to us as a people. A huge group of guest workers in our country would suppress wages for many people, create unemployment and divide our country up.

I've tried to communicate to people here that I have personally witnessed trades contractors in the construction industry preferring to hire illegals over Americans. and this is today. They do not fear the law. The law penalizes the illegals themselves for being here, it does not penalize the employers for hiring them. The law should do the opposite.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-12   0:39:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Red Jones (#142) (Edited)

I could debate with you a long time on the "Civil War" era but check out the link I posted for you to the 4um topic The New Teamwork: American Judges and Prosecutors to see how businesses that hire illegals certainly can be shut down and more for doing so.

[Correcting my "dilemna" typo.] Like I said at #137: Changing the status of illegals to guest workers is like reshuffling to call the same socio-economic drain dilemma a different name. Guest workers should cost employers more than Americans, with the difference going to reparations for Americans thrown out of the workforce by them.

Then there wouldn't be so much incentive to hire them.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-12   2:02:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: GreyLmist (#143)

Guest workers should cost employers more than Americans, with the difference going to reparations for Americans thrown out of the workforce by them.

you and I, we do not dictate to government. Government dictates to us. The purpose of guest workers is to provide a less expensive source of labor that employers feel comfortable with. Employers do not feel comfortable with free people who can quit the employment and go work elsewhere.

Many of our elected leaders are engaged in an effort to bring us a permanent stream of guest workers. Guest workers are like a poison to our country because they will poison the job market. Just as illegal immigrants do. They will also be very divisive to our country as we'll have a large group of foreign people in our country who do not have legal rights. People over time will recognize this as being wrong and will want to legalize the guest workers. While others will want to permanently bash them.

The debate among republicans is whether we should send all the illegals home and replace them with guest workers or should we turn the existing illegals into guest workers and also get more guest workers. Nobody on the republican side even wants to use free labor instead of semi-slave labor.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-08-12   8:08:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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