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Title: Why Medicine Is Slowly Dying in America
Source: The Freeman Online
URL Source: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/fea ... ne-is-slowly-dying-in-america/
Published: Feb 6, 2000
Author: Michael J. Hurd
Post Date: 2010-08-06 15:47:28 by F.A. Hayek Fan
Keywords: None
Views: 471
Comments: 28

The American Medical Association recently voted to form a national union for physicians. It’s official. Doctors are now unionized—just like public school teachers, postal workers, and truck drivers.

In one sense, unionizing is a good step for doctors. Everybody asserts their health-care “rights” today except for physicians. We hear about patient rights and HMO rights and government rights. We never hear about the doctors’ rights. It’s time doctors stood up for themselves too—for their patients’ sake as well as their own. If they don’t, the quality of medical care will deteriorate (as we already see happening), and we’ll all suffer the consequences.

Why didn’t doctors need unions in the past while they do today? Turn back the clock to the 1960s when Medicare became law. Medicare, for all practical purposes, socialized medicine for the elderly. At first, it seemed like a good deal for everybody. The best health care imaginable—all for free! Who could argue with the goodies? Excellent reimbursement rates for physicians. High-quality care for elderly patients—with little or no cost. Low payroll tax rates—at least initially.

Then reality set in, slowly, as it usually does. By the 1980s, it was clear that medical costs were skyrocketing. It’s not hard to figure out why. Elderly patients no longer had to worry about costs. Doctors felt no competitive pressure to keep rates reasonable to stay in business. Guess what happened? Demand for health care skyrocketed. So too did cost.

The Law of Mandates

The extent to which the government mandates a product or service as free is the extent to which demand for it will rise. If the government suddenly legislated that all cars were free, then everybody would clamor to have three or four cars, rather than one or two. People who normally would be content not owning a car at all—perhaps because they lived in a city or relied on a close friend—would want a car because, what the heck, the government’s paying for most or all of it anyway. And people who used to be content with Chevrolets would want BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes.

With demand for Medicare shooting ever upward, the government had to do something. If not, we would all soon be paying 85 percent of our income in payroll taxes just to cover Medicare. In a strange sort of way, government and HMO bureaucrats have saved us from this fate. They started to make the cost-cutting decisions that we, as individual patients in the medical marketplace, righteously refused to face. When costs began to skyrocket, voters in effect told their politicians, “For heaven’s sake, do something. I don’t care what. Just something.”

And “do something” they did: in the form of ever-increasing controls. Somebody has to do it. If patients and doctors are not going to control costs—and it is most certainly not in their interest to do so under a free-lunch, socialized program like Medicare—then clearly the government will have to do it for them.

Ironically, as legislation has sought to remove capitalism from the medical sector, medicine has become more concerned with money than ever before. Prior to Medicare and government regulations, you did not hear horror stories of patients who were turned away from life-preserving surgery or medication because bean-counting bureaucrats were trying to save money. Now such tales are commonplace.

Yes, the sanctimonious Great Society “liberals” of the 1960s were successful at removing the “stench” of business from medicine. And look what they gave us in its place. The kindly family doctor has been replaced by the cool, terse HMO physician—whose primary incentive is to see as many patients as possible, as rarely as possible.

Medicine is slowly evolving into a war of all against all. Doctors find patients increasingly demanding and greedy in their use of medical services they do not have to pay for. Patients find doctors increasingly arrogant and uncaring because, after all, the doctors don’t really answer to them. Thanks to government regulations, doctors now answer to the third party who pays their bills and tells them how to do treatment. No wonder there’s a call for a “patient bill of rights” as well as a union for doctors.

Has the elimination of freedom and capitalism really been good for patient and doctor? Has our four-decade experiment with socialized medicine been a success? No, most would reply. Yet these same people cling to Medicare and government regulation with the tenacity of a child clinging to his teddy bear.

Spreading Control

In the 1990s government controls slowly spread from Medicare to what remained of the “private” sector. Non-elderly patients were, for the most part, shoved into HMOs and other managed-care programs. In 1993 the government tried to force everybody into managed care by decree. The infamous Clinton plan sought to equalize the mediocrity. The plan failed to pass, but for the most part medical care today is managed care. Government- inspired managed-care companies are running the show, much more than doctors and patients are. Instead of socialized medicine, we have fascist (superficially private) medicine.

In formerly communist countries, and in socialist democracies such as Canada, France, and Great Britain, citizens are used to things being this way. They don’t even have HMOs. Instead, monolithic government agencies, similar to our Department of Health and Human Services, control medicine. It’s called “single-payer” insurance, which will become the next big push in the United States if people like Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton have their way.

Most Europeans and Canadians have no concept of genuine medical excellence because they’ve never experienced private medicine. Americans are different. We prefer to have more control over our lives than people do in other nations. We used to have private medicine here, and to a limited degree we still do. We liked—and still like—the results of private medicine, which include dignity and respect for both doctor and patient.

Yet most of us have accepted a lethal contradiction. We have endorsed the idea that trading value for value—in the form of dollars—is somehow tasteless or wrong in the medical arena. So we call on government to handle the dirty economic business for us. Observe the results.

In a sense, medical care is less valued by today’s patient, because it’s cheap and looked on as a “right.” Such a mentality is a breeding ground for mediocrity. Look at how the public school system has evolved into mediocrity (and even violence). Kids have a right to “free” education, run by the government and unionized teachers—but how much of a value is it?

The same is starting to happen in health care. We’re in the earlier stages of the same kind of breakdown currently becoming more obvious in the public school system. How long before some crazy patient shows up in a doctor’s office with a gun, frustrated by the lack of service his $5 copayment is buying him? (Indeed, indignant that he has to pay the $5 at all.) It happened to public education. Why will it be any different with public medicine? Consider Medicare.

People cling to Medicare just as they do to the public schools. They seem to think it’s some kind of mystical oracle that can make something out of nothing—when in fact (as even its government overseers admit) it’s a fiscally bankrupt actuarial disaster that destroys the rights and responsibilities of doctors and patients.

Watching pressure-group representatives shriek on the evening news that “Our Medicare must be preserved!” is like watching grown, educated adults cry, “The tree that grows money must not be cut down! How dare anybody think of cutting it down!” It’s absolute madness.

Today, most doctors and patients clamor for increased rights without increased responsibility. Yet if they are going to support government programs like Medicare and the many state and federal regulations that increasingly grant a “right” to this or that form of medical care on demand (or, at most, for a small copayment), they have to live with the consequences of such legislation.

The consequences include losing control over who your doctor will be and over medical decisions that affect you. Neither doctors nor patients like those consequences, but they continue to push for more government regulations and mandates anyway.

If you want less government control (including indirect government control, such as HMOs and managed care), you need to support privatization of the medical care system. This will require all patients to shop more carefully and rationally for services, the same way they now shop carefully for cars, computers, and groceries.

Privatization will also require doctors and insurance companies, competing in the marketplace, to keep costs reasonable in order to meet the demands of the patient-consumers. If Dr. Jones charges too much for foot surgery, Dr. Smith can open a clinic across the street and charge less. In a free market, where rates are not uniformly imposed by the Health Care Financing Administration or some HMO board of directors, Dr. Smith will have every incentive to do so.

The new government policy must be: “Take responsibility for your own health care—and we’ll lift the legal and tax burdens off your shoulders immediately.” Young and middle-aged people must be put on notice that Medicare’s days are numbered, and they must start saving and investing on their own.

If you don’t want all this added responsibility, then just leave things the way they are now. Don’t pressure your representatives to privatize health care. The government will just keep taking more and more control, which means: taking more and more control over your bodies and your lives.

Then in another few years everything will probably be run by the state or federal Department of Health and Human Services. (They will call this “streamlining.”)You’ll have lengthy waits for surgery, just like they have in Britain and Canada. Doctors will already be unionized, making them more defensive, arrogant, and adversarial than ever. Lawsuits will increase, driving medical costs still higher. Medicine, for everyone except the highest government officials, will work like the post office—only the stakes are much higher than the delivery of your mail! The waits will probably be longer too.

Today, most Americans righteously expect the best health care in the world. Government and intellectual elites have convinced them that they have a right to it on demand, whether they want to pay for it or not. But sooner or later reality always asserts itself. He who picks up the tab eventually runs the show—indeed, has to run the show. Patients and doctors are getting what they voted for and demanded. In the end, the politicians are simply following the voters’ orders.

At the dawn of the 21st century we enjoy a window of opportunity. A strong economy makes ending government programs such as Medicare more feasible than ever. It may be our last chance to privatize medicine without even more painful results. We had better move quickly.

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#1. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)

Doctors find patients increasingly demanding and greedy in their use of medical services they do not have to pay for.

And the doctors????

Why, they are pleading to work for nothing.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-08-06   16:27:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)

Why Medicine Is Slowly Dying in America

Yeah, because people have caught on that the doctors are killing them.

Reality is that doctors annually kill more patients than are murdered annually.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-06   18:17:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Cynicom (#1)

Doctors find patients increasingly demanding and greedy in their use of medical services they do not have to pay for.

And the doctors????

Why, they are pleading to work for nothing.

Did you miss the point of the paragraph that sentence came out of or are you just trying to get a sarcastic dig into doctors in general?

I'm afraid I am missing your point.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-06   18:22:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Original_Intent (#2)

Yeah, because people have caught on that the doctors are killing them.

Reality is that doctors annually kill more patients than are murdered annually.

No one is making you go to one.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-06   18:23:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#4)

No one is making you go to one.

Not yet anyway. And other than a physical, and a podiatrist, I have not used a doctor in more than 20 years. They have their uses but their expertise and effectiveness are vastly overrated and is mostly a lot of PR.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-06   18:29:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Original_Intent (#5)

Not yet anyway. And other than a physical, and a podiatrist, I have not used a doctor in more than 20 years. They have their uses but their expertise and effectiveness are vastly overrated and is mostly a lot of PR.

That's an opinion I guess. Something tells me though that if you ever have a heart attack, need surgery or get into a bad car accident that you will have no problem with having a doctor treat you.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-06   18:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#3)

Did you miss the point of the paragraph that sentence came out of or are you just trying to get a sarcastic dig into doctors in general?

Dig?? No.

After spending last week in a large teaching hospital, I noticed one group of students, only one was American.

My three cardiologists, were Arab, a Chinese and a Filipino. Cardiologists now demand the most pay, average a half million a year.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-08-06   19:18:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Cynicom (#7)

After spending last week in a large teaching hospital, I noticed one group of students, only one was American.

My three cardiologists, were Arab, a Chinese and a Filipino. Cardiologists now demand the most pay, average a half million a year.

Yes, the pay of some specialties is beyond the pale. Meanwhile, primary care is under served throughout the country because they only average about $120,000 a year.

Cardiology is a fellowship, meaning that a doctor must first complete a three year residency in internal medicine before he is eligible. I believe they have to be board certified as well, but am unsure of that. So, just because there were so many foreign doctors doesn't mean that is how it is in medical school. Regardless though, as competitive as fellowships are, it's sad to hear that American doctors have to not only compete against each other but against the rest of the world as well.

My wife is a nurse practitioner who works in an ER. There are a lot of foreign doctors there as well. For that matter, my wife is from Korea, so I guess she is one of those evil foreigners as well, even though she's been an American citizen for close to 20 years now. There are so many foreign doctors in the country for one reason and one reason only. There aren't enough American doctors. There aren't enough residencies. There aren't enough fellowships. Plain and simple. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. If there were as many medical schools in this country as engineering or computer science schools, we wouldn't need foreign doctors in the country. Unlike other industries, foreign doctors get paid the same amount of money as American doctors do. Every year thousands of fully qualified students get turned down from medical schools because there aren't enough slots available for them all. It's the same way with nursing schools.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-06   19:43:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)

If you want less government control (including indirect government control, such as HMOs and managed care), you need to support privatization of the medical care system. This will require all patients to shop more carefully and rationally for services, the same way they now shop carefully for cars, computers, and groceries.

Privatization will also require doctors and insurance companies, competing in the marketplace, to keep costs reasonable in order to meet the demands of the patient-consumers. If Dr. Jones charges too much for foot surgery, Dr. Smith can open a clinic across the street and charge less. In a free market, where rates are not uniformly imposed by the Health Care Financing Administration or some HMO board of directors, Dr. Smith will have every incentive to do so.

bingo. free market and competition. that's what works best in any industry.

christine  posted on  2010-08-06   19:52:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#8) (Edited)

Two items.

Family and friends that are doctors.

The prestige wore off early on, when it came down to a 24/7 business grind for life, out came the lamenting. The 9 to 5 mon thru fri became highly desirable, money became secondary.

Thru necessity, more work responsibility will be shared with NPs and PAs.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-08-06   19:56:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#6) (Edited)

As I said they have their uses. However, the AMA and hence most M.D.'s are in thrall to Big Pharma and while there are no doubt many well intended doctors the practice of medicine has come to be governed first and primarily by the bottom line. While I don't have a link handy, although the data is not hard to find, doctors kill about 120,000 "patients" annually. The modality of allopathic medicine is to treat symptoms not causes. As well because of the dominance of the large pharmaceutical concerns, whose sole concern is profit even to the point of marketing drugs that are worse than the disease (and they OWN the FDA), the practice of AMA Brand "medicine" has a very limited world view. Natural treatments are eschewed, regardless of effectiveness, because there is no 100,000% margin for Big Pharma - you can't patent a natural plant based substance therefore you cannot have a monopoly and a monopolists profit margin. You get a normal rate of return of about 8%. How are you going to buy an enclave in the Bahams on that? One of the better factual anecdotes is that when ER Doctors in L.A. went on strike the numbers of deaths in ER's went down.

Here is an interesting article that links to an article in JAMA which puts the number of patients killed by doctors annually at about 225,000.

Excerpt:

DEATHS PER YEAR:
12,000 - unnecessary surgery (8)
7,000 - medication errors in hospitals (9)
20,000 - other errors in hospitals (10)
80,000 - infections in hospitals (10)
106,000 - non-error, negative effects of drugs

No, for some types of emergency care Allopathic M.D.'s have their uses, but I fall short of worshipping them or having unreserved trust in their modality and expertise.

I have spent a lot of time reading on the subject, and have posted quite a bit on it, and the more I learn the more I avoid them.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-06   20:44:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Original_Intent (#11)

while there are no doubt many well intended doctors the practice of medicine has come to be governed first and primarily by the bottom line.

The Horror! Doctors running their practices as a business and making a profit! Bastards!

While I don't have a link handy, although the data is not hard to find, doctors kill about 120,000 "patients" annually.

If you can find an industry that does not suffer from human error let me know.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-07   11:03:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)

I know doctors who are not accepting any new Medicare or Medicaid patients.

Said the hassle is just not worth it.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-08-07   11:06:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Cynicom (#10)

The prestige wore off early on, when it came down to a 24/7 business grind for life, out came the lamenting. The 9 to 5 mon thru fri became highly desirable, money became secondary.

I would think any prestige would have worn off during residency. While primary care and some specialties have the luxury of doing the 9-5 thing, many others do not. There seems to always be a shortage of ER doctors and trauma surgeons. Plus if you are a "hospitalist," i.e. a doctor that is an employee of a hospital, you have to take on-call duty, which can be quite a heavy load for cardiologists, radiologists, pulmonologists, etc. On the upside for non-hospitalist doctors, a PRN (i.e. temp. doc who does not work for the hospital) ER doctor makes in excess of $100 an hour in this area. God only knows how much a PRN surgeon working trauma makes.

Thru necessity, more work responsibility will be shared with NPs and PAs.

Due to nationwide shortages there is more and more talk about doing away with primary care physicians altogether and having NPs and PAs take over everything. I'm not sure how this will help anything though as we need more people in primary care not less. There's also a push to turn NP and PA programs into doctorate programs instead of masters programs and do away with the requirement that they work under a physicians license. Not surprisingly, the AMA and AOA are fighting this idea tooth and nail. Who knows who will come out ahead on that. NP's and PA's both take the same pharmacology classes as MD/DO's do. MU just started an NP doctorate program and my wife has been contemplating doing it. They have an online option so she wouldn't have to quit work. She's not too hip on going back to school, but she wants to stay ahead of the game at the same time.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-07   11:29:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Turtle (#13)

I know doctors who are not accepting any new Medicare or Medicaid patients.

Said the hassle is just not worth it.

Yeah that's becoming a nationwide trend. Not only is it not worth the hassle doing all of the paperwork, in some cases medicare reimbursement is less than the actual cost of the procedure and it can take more than a year to get your money from them.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-07   11:31:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, farmfriend, Kamala, all (#12) (Edited)

while there are no doubt many well intended doctors the practice of medicine has come to be governed first and primarily by the bottom line.

The Horror! Doctors running their practices as a business and making a profit! Bastards!

Your knee jerk reaction does you ill. Look again at what I wrote - "...the practice of medicine has come to be governed first and primarily by the bottom line"

Think about that.

Is the highest motivation of existence to turn a buck by whatever means?

I am not being critical of the desire to receive a fair exchange and a good living. Neither am I being critical of the desire to have a well stocked Bank Account.

Think about it. Is that really the sum total of human existence? To make a buck?

"He who dies with the most toys is still dead."

When profit, the acquisition of material wealth by any means becomes the sole ruling passion, when the amoral exchange of a defective product becomes the norm, and is justified only on the grounds it was "profitable" to what heights has one risen, or what depths fallen?

So, is there any aspiration, or goal, which reaches higher than the acquisition of money? Are there goods and human qualities which reach up and well beyond the grasp of materialism? And that is what profit at any cost by any means is: Materialism. Can all human goals and aspirations be measured in dollars?

How much is a child's smile worth?

What is the price of the satisfaction of knowing that you helped another simply because it was the right thing to do?

How does one measure love in dollars?

True and genuine happiness? Not the forced gaiety of the person who surrounds themselves with "things", but that true state of being, where one is living, alive with all those joys which are not within the province of mere money and profit. There is no one less happy than the idle rich who spend their time numbing their existence with drugs and alcohol. And so is the Surgeon who conducts an unnecessary surgery happier because he got paid? Because he turned a profit? Or does the misdeed rebound and torture his or her existence because they KNOW what they did was neither right nor just merely profitable? So you see the fundamental fallacy of Capitalism is that greed is good. That profit overrules all other considerations of existence and that merely because one has received a "profit" that the action was justified.

Profit, the pursuit of material wealth, is not a spiritual reward, it is merely a necessity. When one substitutes money for those things which have no price and cannot be measured in dollars then one has entered a zone of spiritual death. You might as well just put a gun to your head and pull the trigger.

And here you simply commit a logical fallacy. The following two statements are non-sequiter (Latin for does not follow). They are disrelated and neither justifies the other.

While I don't have a link handy, although the data is not hard to find, doctors kill about 120,000 "patients" annually.

If you can find an industry that does not suffer from human error let me know.

You are basically making an unfounded assertion i.e., that perforce all of those deaths proceeded from excusable errors and were unavoidable. How so? And in what way?

You can't have missed the numbers I posted as well. So, the 8,000 deaths from unnecessary surgeries can be attributed solely to human error? And what of the deaths from drugs which were rammed through the corrupt approval process at the FDA? Are those then justified because they were "profitable"? There is an even deeper fallacy implicit in your own train of reasoning and it is that we each live in a bubble where our actions have no effect upon others, for good or ill, and that the only good is that which is good for the individual themselves to the exclusion of all others. Such is perforce the rationale of a Pirate, a Stalin, or a Mao. What is good for me is the only good. Thankfully not all of mankind truly lives in that egocentric bubble or it would have long since ceased to exist. So, when a Pharmaceutical Company knowingly markets a product which kills the user or makes their life more miserable, is it justified because it was profitable?

So, your argument that all can be attributed to human error is specious, and unsupported.

I have no desire to humble or humiliate you, but I would encourage you to reason, and to expand your horizons a bit, as the path you have marked out is a very unhappy one.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-07   17:50:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Original_Intent (#16)

not to sound goofy, but reading that was like listening to a symphony! lol! interesting thread & eloquent as usual.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-08-07   19:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Original_Intent, *Post Of The Day* (#16)

Think about it. Is that really the sum total of human existence? To make a buck?

"He who dies with the most toys is still dead."

When profit, the acquisition of material wealth by any means becomes the sole ruling passion, when the amoral exchange of a defective product becomes the norm, and is justified only on the grounds it was "profitable" to what heights has one risen, or what depths fallen?

So, is there any aspiration, or goal, which reaches higher than the acquisition of money? Are there goods and human qualities which reach up and well beyond the grasp of materialism? And that is what profit at any cost by any means is: Materialism. Can all human goals and aspirations be measured in dollars?

How much is a child's smile worth?

What is the price of the satisfaction of knowing that you helped another simply because it was the right thing to do?

How does one measure love in dollars?

Reminds me of the story of the Natives and the Potlatch for instance. Their status was measured not by how much wealth they accumulated, but by how much they gave away.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-07   19:18:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: wudidiz (#18)

I am minded by your comment on the Potlach of a great philosopher: "A man is only as valuable as he can help others."

An interesting viewpoint. One which taken to its fullest measure would be to promote the good of all mankind, each and every one.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-07   19:32:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Artisan (#17)

not to sound goofy, but reading that was like listening to a symphony! lol! interesting thread & eloquent as usual.

I am humbled by your kind words. Thank you.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-07   19:33:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Original_Intent, Artisan, all (#19)

I just now finished reading that wikipedia link. It's interesting and worth reading if you haven't already.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-07   19:40:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: wudidiz (#21)

I read it before I responded. Reminded me of being a Boy Scout again. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-07   19:45:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Original_Intent (#22) (Edited)

I figured you probably did. Most of the links I post I don't read the whole thing. I didn't know (or forgot) about the 1885 ban. They call them potlucks here. Not only Natives have them of course. They're informal. Most of the ones I've been to. I've been to Native ones too. Lots of salmon.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-07   19:49:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Original_Intent (#16)

I have no desire to humble or humiliate you, but I would encourage you to reason, and to expand your horizons a bit, as the path you have marked out is a very unhappy one.

Humiliate me? LOL! Your arrogance is amusing and you think way to much of yourself. With all due respect, you are incapable of humiliating me as you are nothing to me. Expand my horizons because I do not agree with your simplistic view of doctors? Please. I've lived all over the world as both a military brat and a soldier. I busted my ass to obtain undergraduate and graduate degrees while serving on active duty. I got out and created two separate businesses which I sold and made millions on. I am now a senior in a well respected cell and molecular biology degree program and with any luck I will be in medical school next year, all paid for out of my own pocket. My horizons are quite expanded thank you very much. As for your lecture, what exactly have you done in your life that would make you think you could lecture me about anything?

Is the highest motivation of existence to turn a buck by whatever means?

I am not being critical of the desire to receive a fair exchange and a good living. Neither am I being critical of the desire to have a well stocked Bank Account.

Think about it. Is that really the sum total of human existence? To make a buck?

"He who dies with the most toys is still dead."

When profit, the acquisition of material wealth by any means becomes the sole ruling passion, when the amoral exchange of a defective product becomes the norm, and is justified only on the grounds it was "profitable" to what heights has one risen, or what depths fallen?

So, is there any aspiration, or goal, which reaches higher than the acquisition of money? Are there goods and human qualities which reach up and well beyond the grasp of materialism? And that is what profit at any cost by any means is: Materialism. Can all human goals and aspirations be measured in dollars?

How much is a child's smile worth?

What is the price of the satisfaction of knowing that you helped another simply because it was the right thing to do?

How does one measure love in dollars?

True and genuine happiness? Not the forced gaiety of the person who surrounds themselves with "things", but that true state of being, where one is living, alive with all those joys which are not within the province of mere money and profit. There is no one less happy than the idle rich who spend their time numbing their existence with drugs and alcohol. And so is the Surgeon who conducts an unnecessary surgery happier because he got paid? Because he turned a profit? Or does the misdeed rebound and torture his or her existence because they KNOW what they did was neither right nor just merely profitable? So you see the fundamental fallacy of Capitalism is that greed is good. That profit overrules all other considerations of existence and that merely because one has received a "profit" that the action was justified.

Profit, the pursuit of material wealth, is not a spiritual reward, it is merely a necessity. When one substitutes money for those things which have no price and cannot be measured in dollars then one has entered a zone of spiritual death. You might as well just put a gun to your head and pull the trigger.

So this is your view of doctors? While I'm sure there are doctors who fit into your narrow view, it's a stereotype that is as ignorant as saying all blacks are lazy and all Mexicans are thieves. If your view is that all doctors are money grubbers who would do anything to make a buck then it is more than obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. To use your words, it's an opinion that is specious and unsupported.

If your meaningless little rant about the evils of money was supposed to be somehow pointed at me because of my business success or because my goal is to get into medical school and become a physician, then you are barking up the wrong tree. I'm not getting into medicine because I want to get rich. I am rich. I'm going into medicine because I want to be a trauma surgeon and make a difference in people's lives. I don't give a shit about the money. And fuck you if you don't approve.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-07   22:44:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, Original__Intent (#24)

Humiliate me? LOL! Your arrogance is amusing and you think way to much of yourself. With all due respect, you are incapable of humiliating me as you are nothing to me. Expand my horizons because I do not agree with your simplistic view of doctors? Please. I've lived all over the world as both a military brat and a soldier. I busted my ass to obtain undergraduate and graduate degrees while serving on active duty. I got out and created two separate businesses which I sold and made millions on. I am now a senior in a well respected cell and molecular biology degree program and with any luck I will be in medical school next year, all paid for out of my own pocket. My horizons are quite expanded thank you very much. As for your lecture, what exactly have you done in your life that would make you think you could lecture me about anything?

I believe that OI could lecture you about most anything, and it would be of value.

Do you really believe that trashing people gains you anything? Sit back, stop beating your own drum, as most of us are not interested, nor impressed. Be yourself, you might teach us something, but not in the manner you have adopted.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-08-07   23:05:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Cynicom (#25) (Edited)

I believe that OI could lecture you about most anything, and it would be of value.

When he accomplishes what I have accomplished then he can give me lectures on life. Until then he can KMA. Broaden my horizons because I refuse to agree with his blanket condemnation of doctors? Screw that and screw you if you agree with him. I bet you weren't condemning them when they rushed you to the hospital the other day you hypocritical son of a bitch.

Sit back, stop beating your own drum, as most of us are not interested, nor impressed.

I really do not care if you are impressed or not that wasn't my intention. My intention was to show that I'm not some 18 year old kid who needs to be lectured to about broadening my horizons. Especially when the reason I am supposed to broaden them is because I do not agree with the broad brush he uses to paint the entire medical field. My wife has been in the medical field for more than 10 years. I have been volunteering and at the hospital and interacting with doctors for the last four. I have met my share of doctors both during work and after work in working and social conditions. While that in no way makes me an expert on the whole medical field, it gives me enough life experience about doctors to make up my own damned mind about them without some yahoo telling me to broaden my horizons because I disagree with him.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-07   23:31:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, Original_Intent (#26)

I really do not care if you are impressed or not that wasn't my intention. My intention was to show that I'm not some 18 year old kid who needs to be lectured to about broadening my horizons.

Professional ethics and simple social mores demand and extract correct social behavior. If anyone is so undisciplined that they cannot interact socially as required, they are ostracized, and professionally shunned.

One friend is trying to hang on for retirement as a clinic proctologist, the last stop before his ouster for one more social gaffe.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-08-08   15:40:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Cynicom (#27)

Professional ethics and simple social mores demand and extract correct social behavior. If anyone is so undisciplined that they cannot interact socially as required, they are ostracized, and professionally shunned.

One friend is trying to hang on for retirement as a clinic proctologist, the last stop before his ouster for one more social gaffe.

That's nice.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-08-08   15:43:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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