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Title: Report: 1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent
Source:
East Valley Tribune
URL Source: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/ar ... 84-11df-9c10-001cc4c002e0.html
Published: Aug 11, 2010
Author: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
Post Date: 2010-08-11 21:07:27 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 1821
Comments: 119
Report: 1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:52 pm | Updated: 5:47 pm, Wed Aug 11, 2010. Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services | 2 comments About one out of every 15 children in the United States was born to a family where at least one parent is in this country illegally, according to a new report Wednesday. And four out of five of those 5.1 million children -- including 340,000 born in just 2008 -- are citizens because they were born in the United States, the Pew Hispanic Center concluded. That, according to some, makes them ``anchor babies'' for their illegal parents. The figures, which the organization calculated based on 2009 U.S. Census Bureau estimates, are the best estimates to date of the scope of the issue which has resulted in calls to amend the U.S. Constitution to deny automatic citizenship to children solely by virtue of their birth within this country. That percentage of children of illegal immigrant may be increasing. The overall figure is about 6.8 percent of all children 17 and younger who have at least one illegal immigrant parent. But Pew Hispanic figures that 7.9 percent of all births during 2008 -- that 340,000 figure -- were offspring of "unauthorized'' immigrants. Researchers peg the number of illegal immigrants in the United States at something slightly in excess of 4 percent of the total population. "But because they are relatively young and have high birth rates, their children make up a much larger share of the newborn population and the child population in this country,'' the report states. The report does not say how many of those 5.1 million children of illegal immigrants are in Arizona. But Jeff Passel, the senior demographer at Pew Hispanic Center, pointed to an earlier study which concluded that Arizona has about 4.2 percent of the total illegal immigrants in the entire country. Using that as a rough estimate, that translates to more than 214,000 children from birth through age 17 in the state where at least one parent is not here legally. And, based on the Pew figures nationwide, about 170,000 of these would be considered "anchor babies'' born in this country. That also tracks with estimates in previous Pew reports which show that up to 110,000 children in Arizona public schools were born in this country into families where one or both parents are undocumented, with possibly 65,000 more school children who are themselves illegal immigrants. The numbers will figure in the debate over the future of the 14th Amendment. It states that children born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of both this country and the state where they reside. Courts have interpreted that to entitle citizenship to those born in the United States regardless of whether one or both parents had no legal right to be here. Some foes, including Sen. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, argue those rulings are flawed. He noted that the amendment makes its provisions conditional on the children being "subject to the jurisdiction'' of this country. Pearce said courts, citing that language, concluded for years that did not entitle Native Americans to citizenship. "There's no doubt where they were born,'' he said. It was only after Congress specifically altered the law regarding citizenship for Indians that the situation changed. Pearce is weighing whether to have Arizona bring a new challenge to those court rulings. That would take the form of a state law denying birth certificates to children born in Arizona unless they could show at least one parent is in this country legally. That likely would provoke a lawsuit. But Pearce said a simpler course would be to have the issue handled at the federal level. U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., is pushing to amend the Constitution to spell out that mere birth within U.S. borders does not entitle someone to citizenship. That process, though, is cumbersome, requiring either a constitutional convention or ratification of any change approved by two-thirds of the U.S. House and Senate by three-fourths of all state legislatures. Pearce, however, said that's not necessary. "Congress could fix it tomorrow,'' he said. "All it needs is clarification.'' He pointed out that the 14th Amendment, which also deals with issues of voting rights and who can hold office, also spells out that Congress "shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.'' "So they put it in there in case there was some abuse, or something misunderstood,'' Pearce said. Applicable language of 14th Amendment All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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#43. To: Red Jones (#21)
Welcome to the truth. Facts are inconvenient things. It doesn't matter what you think of me or what you think of reality. Truth is truth whether you like it or not.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
we have actual protests in arizona in favor of the illegals. they're almost all mexicans & mexican americans protesting. They are protesting that there be no deporting of people and to let the illegals stay. and they raise up banners sometimes with cesar chavez' name on it. you can convince me that cesar was against new illegals coming here. You are insane if you think that the ethnic mexican community wants to send them home. they do not, in overwhelming numbers. You live in a dream-world if you think otherwise. if we want to solve this problem, then we must respect the sensibilities of the mexicans. You can't get agreement from the democrats unless you do this. if you don't get agreement from the democrats, then you'll get guest workers which is what the republicans want and which is worse than illegal immigrants. and I don't think anything negative of you. I just think you're nuts.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Now, let's pick apart your argument. Red Jones: All Mexican-Americans are on-board with no deportation. Who is right and who is wrong? You are 100% WRONG. You claim all, meaning 100%, meaning every single one. I never made that claim. You say I did. You are wrong again. That is simply not true. You claim history is wrong. YOU ARE WRONG. I'll take your apology and retraction any time you want to give it.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
Just did a cursory search on Chavez. Here's what I found. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Ch%C3%A1vez "The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
No kidding. I lived in California for many years. I voted for Prop 187. Would you care to tell me I never did any of that? You also claim I've never seen any of this. Would you like to dig a deeper hole for yourself or would you prefer to apologize and stop now?
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
That is because Chavez was a Union Leader and while he championed the rights of legal immigrants, he also understood the laws of Supply and Demand. With an unlimited supply of cheap labor, Chavez would never be able to organize a union or get away with demanding better treatment or higher wages. In short, Chavez understood reality and also argued for immigration restrictions. The real history is very much different from the "folk tales" that people think they know. It always is. The sad thing is that too many people buy into the folk tales and never look at what really happened.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
mirage, you're an idiot. I never argued that ALL mexican americans want this or want that. I said the overwhelming majority do not want the illegals sent home. and I said that it was ludicrous to think that if cesar chavez was alive then he would want them sent home, and if you look at the context of our conversation and what you said you implied that - that cesar chavez would be for deporting people. It is exactly the same as saying that MLK was against civil rights in the 1960's. You are an idiot. you build up little logic games based on garbage. don't you have anything better to do with your time?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
here's what I'd like to tell you. you're an idiot. you simply enjoy dysfunctionalism and meaningless argument. mental masturbation and argument for argument's sake is what you're into. have fun.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
The hell you say! What would they do about it? Are you seriously suggesting that the United States CANNOT enforce its immigration laws because of what some yahoos from another country think about it? Do you think that Americans can go to Mexico and demand that they be given special treatment and allowed to stay and that no other Americans can be deported or jailed for committing crimes? I don't believe you are that stupid.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. that is all you have mirage. you're just a bluffer. you have no real facts relating to our discussion. just obfuscation and unrelated claims? mirage - something illusory, without substance or reality. that is you. I said that the ethnic mexicans were overwhelmingly behind the illegals who are already here and in the community. and that is 100% true. anyone who doesn't take that fact seriously is not interested in solving this issue. I never said 'all', you said that I said 'all'. and you offerred evidence of this labor union leader named Chavez from 1969?????? There's a huge difference between trying to stop new illegals from coming and kicking out the existing ones. You can't even get the 2 ideas straight in your mind as you've confused them. discussion with you is an illusion. now I see why you selected your name.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Who gives a rat's ass what he would, or wouldn't, do? The fact is that the ILLEGALS are in America ILLEGALLY--is there some part of that that you just can't comprehend? They need to go get in the back of the line, behind the people who have been trying to come into the country legally and have been waiting in some cases for years. The illegals and their supporters can whine and bitch all they want to but they need to go to the back of the line. And if they won't do that I have no sympathy or respect for them and I certainly have none for their supporters.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Reagan was wrong. What he should have done is what Eisenhower did. Have another Operation Wetback and deport the illegals. And not just an escort to the border either but delivered so far down in Mexico that they couldn't just waltz back across the border the minute your back was turned.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It won't work. You give the ones here now amnesty and that is a green light for many more millions of them to come in, knowing that in a few years people like you will be clamoring to allow them to stay too. America is being buried by delusional liberals.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. James, don't be offended when I tell you this because I'm not happy about it. but we can't even pass a law to penalize employers for hiring illegal immigrants. Its been 24 years since government purposely passed a law to provide a procedure through which employers could hire illegals without penalty. In 24 years we can't even correct that 'mistake'. Our people pretend that congress made a mistake. They made no mistake. People stood on the floor of the House and they said that if the legislation was passed, then black market sources would make up fake documents in large quantity, sell them to illegal immigrants and these people would move into our work force in large numbers. I read in the WSJ at the time that congressmen stood up and said that in the House before this legislation was passed. The WSJ said that leadership of the US Senate would not allow any legislation to even be voted on that would force employers to stop hiring illegals. Ronald Reagan said this too on national tv. we can't even pass a law to force our own employers to hire our own people rather than foreigners in our own country. The US of A is an un-done, un-tied country. The interests of the Americans mean nothing to our government. and our people are too feeble to even think about this, much less do anything about it. Half the flag-wavers who rail against illegal immigration will vote for politicians who tell them that they'll bring in guest workers. and guest workers are the same as illegal immigrants. Our system is completely dysfunctional in that our government does not act in our interests at all. Lots of other countries have governments much more responsive to their people than our government. In europe they were dissatisfied with illegal immigration and with legal immigration. they passed laws to cut it way back and they did that. we in america do not have the same influence on our government that they have. for 24 years we've been unable to pass a law to punish employers for hiring illegals. and our people don't even know this. They are against illegal immigrants, but they don't even know why we have them. How can we possibly assert our will through our government? About 3 months ago I was having casual conversation with illegal immigrants from mexico. they were talking about how America is really going downhill dramatically. they see us as a feeble people. we are. They were not gloating over this, they were just speaking 'matter-of-fact'.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
GreyLmist: They're not dictators here. Oh yes, they most definitely run the show here in America. Who do you think the congresscritters listen to: the white majority or the mexicons when they bitch and scream like spoiled brats?? We've been sold out since 1965 on the immigration issue, and it pisses me off every day I open my eyes on this Earth.
__________________________________________________________ And if the Mafia started protesting because bank robbers were being tried and jailed, so what? What difference should it make to AMERICANS what a bunch of Mexicans think about the immigration policies? I think our congress should have an immigration law that mirrors Mexico's and then laugh like hell when the hypocritical Mexicans start talking about how terrible it is. Because Mexico is far more strict on illegal aliens than America ever has been. And they don't allow them to stay either. Imagine that, a bunch of hypocrites and you're taking up for them.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I got side-tracked on a discussion with an illusion who calls himself mirage. they're here illegally, I respect your point. but I don't respect the law. because the law was modified to let them come here. it was always illegal for them to come, always illegal for the employer to hire them, but no penalty to the employer, the law was purposely made to avoid a penalty to the employer. and as you know, there's generally been no penalty to the 'illegal' either. the resulting situation was that 25 million people came and put down roots here. those roots are so deep in our community in that these people hold jobs, pay bills and have children who think that they are Americans that it would be negative for our community to kick them out. I think we've explored our differences on this issue adequately. I sincerely hope that somebody might see my point of view as I have tried hard to deliver it.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Yes you did. So, you think all Ethnic Mexicans think alike. Is it some or all? You keep saying "Ethnic Mexicans" as if all of them think alike. So let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you really think they all think alike? If you didn't, then you would have said, "some". Keep digging.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
I doubt you will find many people who post on this board who are sympathetic to the illegals no matter what sob story they tell. Certainly folks who post on boards more in tune with thinking America OWES something to the illegals might think that it would be wrong to deport them. But so long as Americans have to jump through all kinds of hoops to enter other countries, and especially to be allowed to stay, and when Americans dare not try to influence their government or elections under penalty of time in a foreign hell hole jail, I doubt you will find all that many Americans sympathetic to the illegals and clamoring to allow them to stay.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. please don't be offended. but only people of lower intelligence believe that our government listens to us. neither the white americans, black americans or mexican-americans want guest workers. but the politicians tell us that they will give us guest workers. who are they (the politicians) listening to? it is not us. lesson - we'd better stick with the mexican-americans on this issue and let the illegals stay or else we'll be run over by government like a steam-roller compacting asphalt. I think one thing that I wish to communicate to others outside of Arizona is that Arizona and other border states are becoming majority mexican. the whites are becoming the minority. so perhaps this affects my sensitivity to mexican-american sensibilities. I like to speak english. Some people have hostilities to white people and would like to force us to speak spanish. we shouldn't be dividing ourselves up. we should listen to what the mexicans want if we had any brains at all. they can be our allies on this issue, but we must make a deal, the existing illegals stay and we shut off new arrivals. they'll agree to that. our government won't agree. the threat to us is not the ethnic mexicans. the threat is the regime that rules our country.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
That's PRECISELY the reason that illegals and their American-born brats should be forcibly evicted: the rest of the planet will get the message and stop the gate-crashing. I have no sympathy for the American-born children of illegal invaders, their PARENTS put them in an untenable position. Forcible eviction would see many of these parents killed by their children, a just consequence in my book.
__________________________________________________________ Read my post again: I said that the congresscritters listen to the invaders, NOT the white Americans.
__________________________________________________________ It is no fun having to show you that you buy into folklore and stereotypes and don't bother to actually look at reality. The fact is that Cesar Chavez wanted immigration restrictions. He sent people down to the border. That was lost in the folklore and you, my friend, are too lazy to check your facts. When someone calls you out for not having all the facts, you launch into a tizzy of namecalling and make yourself look like a fool. The fact is that not all people of Mexican heritage want an amnesty, but you think they are all on the same page. Do you also think there is no such thing as a Black Conservative as well? Do you think they are all followers of Jesse Jackson? Grow up, Red. There is a bigger world out there than what you think it is and people are not all the same. You are wrong. You keep proving yourself wrong. To cover for it, you launch into a batch of namecalling. You have no argument. You have no facts. All you have is blather and insults. Grow up, child.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
I'm not trying to offend you. I saw what you wrote. I responded to you that the government does not listen to the whites or the ethnic mexicans. I call them ethnic mexicans because they are usually american in their national identity. they are mexican in their ethnic identification. then there are some who are actual mexicans from mexico. You assumed that the government listens to somebody among the people because you've been indoctrinated to believe in democracy, just as we all have been. but democracy is dysfunctional. the government doesn't care at all for the sensibilities, interests or desires of the people. and it doesn't matter what color you are. when the mexicans were down in mexico they were getting treated like garbage by their own government. then they come up here and complain about our government treating them like garbage. the mexican government let US grain into mexico with no tariffs. Problem - US grain being subsidized very heavily where farmers get as much government money as money from selling grain, the mexican farmers couldn't compete. result - 25 million mexicans pushed off the land in 10 years time. Their government devalued their currency by about 75% all at once and also at the same time contracted their money supply dramatically. this caused a huge downturn in the mexican economy. this is why they came here.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
You sound like you spend most of your time on Fantasy Island. The illegals may agree with you to your face but then be on the phone talking to their cousins, uncles and whoever else back home in Mexico telling them to get ready to load up and come to America. That they have found Americans who are so foolish that they are going to give them amnesty like they did in '86 and in a few more years they will do it again. You know, one of the better definitions of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result every time. But you keep on doing what you always did and you're gonna keep getting what you always got. Want more illegals? Reward them with amnesty.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Speak for yourself, I'm just old enough that I escaped the "democracy" train in public school.
__________________________________________________________ I do appreciate you politely and sincerely explaining these things to me. regarding this 'america owes something' idea and the illegals. I will disagree with you on that idea on philosophical grounds. The governments of our states and our national government do owe the existing illegal immigrants something. they have been in our communities and working jobs and existing as people here. you and I don't owe them anything special. but government owes them respect for the fact that they live here, this is their home, government should serve the people who live here. that is powerful dissent that I offer. but I believe that. Government should serve the people who live here. Our government has played an agenda of letting them come to drive wages down, to keep employers happy, to divide us up, to do away with the middle-class. All of those agendas are illegitimate. but instead, the agenda of government should be to serve the people who live here.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Isn't that idea of yours akin to cowering down while a rapist has his way with your wife? It is obvious you are too conditioned by your Mexican friends to be of any further use to us, as rightful citizens of the USA.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
The government owes the illegal aliens "respect" for invading America? That's a good one. Which comedian do you write for or do you have a stand up routine of your own? They (the illegal aliens) "have been in our communities" [uninvited] "and working jobs" [while actual Americans are unemployed] and "existing as people here" [what, they "existed as frogs" in Mexico?]. And I already knew that I didn't owe them anything but neither does the government. The government owes it to Americans to stop the invasion and deport the people who are in America illegally. The space they are taking up could be filled by people who applied for citizenship and who have been waiting a long time for it. People who never thought they had a right to jump the line ahead of everyone else like your illegal alien Mexicans think.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The agenda of the government should be to confine itself to the duties specifically laid out for it in the Constitution. I have yet to find the clause that states the government has any duty to serve illegal aliens anything beyond sending them back to their own country and I have found that the government is SUPPOSED to protect the states from invasion. If they did that they would be "serving the people who live here LEGALLY." And that is the point you seem intent on missing.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. You're using lawyer's tactics. When the law is against you, argue the facts. You are pounding the table. When even Wikipedia is against you, you deny it. When even Ruben Navarette is against you, you deny it. Here is the quote from Ruben: And in 1973, in one of the most disgraceful chapters in UFW history, the union set up a "wet line" to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States. Under the guidance of Chávez 's cousin, Manuel, UFW members tried at first to convince the immigrants not to cross. When that didn't work, they physically attacked the immigrants and left some bloody in the process. It happened in the same place that the Minutemen are now planning to gather: the Arizona-Mexico border. At the time, The Village Voice said that the UFW conducted a "campaign of random terror against anyone hapless enough to fall into its net." In their book, "The Fight in the Fields," Susan Ferris and Ricardo Sandoval recall the border incident and write that the issue of how to deal with the undocumented was "particularly vexing" for Chávez. How much more do I have to throw at you? Would you like me to start quoting biographies? Do you need video? You are wrong.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
There's a topic for another thread -- the post-Dallas coup, the Johnson era, and who was pushing disasterous immigration policies at that time.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
you know, I just can't remember how many mexican rocket scientists I've seen carting their cyclotrons and high power microscopes on their backs as they cross the Rio Grande to sneak across the border....but thats just me...
__________________________________ No it's not "normal". It's wrong no matter how many rogues are doing it. You keep pushing a "lesser of two evils" pick as if giving citizenship to criminal invaders is the better option than guest workers. I disagree but we don't have to go with the guest worker option either. Both are wrong choices and not required. So, there's your wanted "compromise" -- neither; off the table now and into the shredder. We aren't the UN. This is America for Americans. You act as if Federal laws not targeting rogue employers hiring illegals is the main problem but did not answer my question about why Arizona hasn't acted to penalize discriminatory businesses there that avoid hiring Americans while consuming its resources. Arizona most certainly could and should do so, not just the Federales. Answer the question, please -- and I think you should also say something about why you think it's America's job to provide Mexicans with jobs and better living conditions, even though so many of our businesses have impoverished this country by moving to Mexico via NAFTA to do that for them and still Mexico feigns being too poor and/or deranged to provide for its own.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
yes, that is very nice. Perhaps according to standards of justice the creator has provided - America is for the Americans - as you say. Divine providence is ours in our country, I will agree with that. But our lawmakers, our business institutions, our people even, our educators, our religious leaders simply do not have that understanding that 'america is for the americans'. we have laws in our country that give special tax breaks to foreign-born people when they buy business franchises like hotels or convenience stores. Normally convenience stores and hotels even are franchised and there is a big corporation that sells each facility to a business person and then this business person operates the hotel/convenience store under the corporate rules of the franchise. These deals are financed. If whoever purchases the franchised business can qualify for the tax break, then the financier can provide better financing, meaning a higher sales price. A higher sales price because the expenses of operating calculate out lower over time, calculate lower because of the special tax break on income taxes that foreign born people get in the US. In this manner incentives are built in to make it in the corporation's interest to sell the franchise to a foreign-born person. this is the key reason why so many hotels and convenience stores are owned by foreign born people in the US. this is the reason why so many such institutions favor hiring foreign born people at those locations. they favor hiring their family and friends who happen to be foreign-born. The federal government has a law that favors them. we have lots of common practices that favor foreign born people in jobs. An economist did a study a few years ago and found that over a period of about 2 years he studied 91% of all new jobs in america went to foreign born people. I witnessed an employer in the construction industry decide not to even try to hire any americans for their work. I heard a part-owner of a trades contractor say that it was a waste of time, in justification of his decision to advertise for job openings in a spanish language radio station and hire 100% foreigners who are likely illegal. this happens every day. and it is OK according to the law. My point is that america is not for the americans according to how things are done. and anybody who tries to say these things in public is told to shut up and if they persist they're said to be racists. We're a nation that doesn't even know how to stand up for our own national interest. Don't blame me for that. You asked me very sincerely to comment as to why arizona does not pass a law to punish the employers for this behavior. Please don't hold me responsible for the Arizona republicans. they don't work for me. I could just as easily say that we should boycott people from Illinois or otherwise hate them because Obama came from Illinois. and the Obama government pursues policies of war and torture which are abhorrent, therefore we should persecute Illinois. Is it really a person in Illinois' fault if the washington government does evil things. Its not my fault and not your fault either that the washington government does evil things. You asked me to say why I thought it was America's job to provide jobs for mexicans. James told me we didn't owe them (Mexicans) anything. I answered him and told him what we owe them is respect. Especially if they live here and fit in as workers and community members. They came. They took the jobs. The employers did favor them. Even though we were wronged by the institutions that rule our country and we feel a very deep grievance over that, we should still remember that we have an obligation to do the right thing. And we shouldn't want wrong done to these illegal immigrants who do live here. I know that some of you have told me you don't care about their children born here. I respect your feelings. But I'm not going to go tell some 8-year old kid that his life must be turned upside down because his mommy & daddy were on the wrong side of a policy dispute. and I won't say it is a just thing if my government does that. a little kid growing up in our community is a high priority. Our world should be ordered so that the kid has a good place to live. injustice that reigns down on us does not remove this simple obligation that we have. my christian mindset leads me to the conclusions that it happens to be completely normal in the course of human history that people are treated very badly, and we are under a test given to us by our creator, a test to see how we will perform under these conditions, will we do wrong or will we not do wrong. The world is going to be screwed up. We can't control that. But we can control whether or not we ourselves contribute towards doing bad things. as I said at the top of this post I do buy the 'divine providence' idea that America is for the Americans, I think the creator made it so. But the creator is letting our country be destroyed. And we can't argue with the creator on that point. But following is what I have to tell you regarding this idea of our country and divine providence. Our nation is the greatest nation on gods green earth. We Americans tend to believe that very easily and I for one do believe that. Our accomplishments are many and mighty. Economic development that affected the lives of ordinary people on this planet began when our nation came into being. We were the catalyst as well as one of the main engines of economic development world-wide. that is simple history and not my opinion. For 30 consequtive decades from 1700 to 2000 our nation was a great trail-blazer essentially in all of the industries that caused economic development during that time. There were times during that 30 decade run when other nations contributed, but there was never a decade during that stretch when our nation was not the key leading nation in economic development for every important industry. These achievements did not happen without god. It was divine providence that caused these achievements. We should not let pride convince us otherwise. Because I say god is responsible for our nation's great achievements please don't think that I dis-respect the Americans among whom are my ancestors in their sacrifices and achievements. I am no fool. None of my ancestors came here to america after 1840. I'm descendant from people who were here in the 1600's. I'm descendant from 3 men who fought on our side in the revolution. I'm descendant from 2 men who fought for the north in that war and from 1 who fought for the south. We have a letter at my mother's house from my ancestor describing an indian attack on their home in Ohio in the 1820's. I'm descendant from a man who spent 25 years in the US Army beginning in 1856. That career included not just the civil war, but an awful of Indian fighting in Arizona. I read his letters too that described some of it. I'm as American as any of you and very happy to be so. But my christian faith tends to convince me that these fantastic achievements that no other nation can begin to match occurred because of divine favor. What god is doing now with our nation is letting it be destroyed. He let those evil people rule our country. We can do nothing about these things. One day our nation will be attacked militarily and completely destroyed. The whole world will sit back and marvel at our destruction. At that time jesus will return. He will return here to our country. and then he will raise people from the dead. The invading army itself will be defeated with the help of these people raised up from the dead. God will maintain that record throughout our entire history, that we will not be defeated in military action. but at the same time, our destruction will be overwhelming. There will be little left of our nation. Some time after these things occur our nation will be once again restored, and it will be god deciding when and how it will be restored. Why do I think these things? Because I've read the christian prophecies, and I read George Washington's prophecy too, and I've seen what is going on in this world. That is why. I think god gave us George Washington and used George Washington to speak this prophecy which was given to GW by means of an angel who visited him (George Washington says at least). I think god favors us just that much that he will do that for us. but we must understand that god does not orchestrate that human history unfold for our purposes, our pleasure, our pride, etc. It is orchestrated for god's purposes. Those purposes are spelled out in the book, if you were to read it. We should be humble and remember these things about our country. George Washington's prophecy specifically says that jesus will return here to America. I can imagine that he would go to Mount Vernon in Virginia where George Washington is buried. I can imagine that he would go to Arlington Cemetery. I sincerely hope that I am among the men who are tasked to fight against the invaders. What purpose do we have on this earth except to be loyal to that cause given to us by god? God made me an American. I'll be loyal to that cause. At the same time, god made me with a sense of justice and charity in my heart for downtrodden people. So I don't join in on illegal immigrant bashing. and when you want me to do that I just ask why it is that if the illegals are so bad, then why are employers not given penalties for hiring them?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
buck, I really don't care if I'm of any use to you at all. I hope you won't be offended that I have never thought that you were of any use to me either.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I knew you'd be offended that I said our governments owed the illegal immigrants 'respect' if they've lived here and put down roots. I didn't want to offend you. If they have an emergency situation they should be able to call '911' and be treated like citizens. Their children should be welcomed in the schools. Their children are in the schools, but sometimes they have a hard time getting them enrolled in the schools because of their illegal status. Well, we let them come, we have an obligation to at least respect their presence. They can be our friends at this point or our enemies. We don't want them to be our enemies because they are becoming the majority in many places. Since they've lived here and worked here things have changed, we owe them respect as people who live here. They're part of our community now. I realize we disagree on this point, I apologize, but thats how I feel. an irony is that if we 'solve' this problem per my recommendation, then I would get every single illegal immigrant sat down with a government agent in a room and tell them flat to their face that they have a choice. either they can sign a paper agreeing to become a US citizen within 'x' years and do all the things they must to become a US citizen, such as speak english, and renounce their other citizenship, or else they can go home - immediately. I'd give them that choice. They'd almost all become US citizens is what they would do. Its not in our interest to make them hate us.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
a mirage is an illusion. Can't have a discussion with an illusion. the nature of your discussion indicates that there is no real discussion with you, it is a mirage.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Well so far I've proven you wrong on everything, so you're choosing to duck and ignore now. Lawyers' tricks all. In a real debate, resorting to insults signals surrender. I'm still waiting for your retraction and apology. I accept your surrender.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
2. James told me we didn't owe them (Mexicans) anything. I answered him and told him what we owe them is respect. 1. Uh, why are you going to fight the invaders sometime in the future when you are welcoming them now? Sounds a bit schizophrenic to me. 2. We "owe respect" to people whose first act in coming to America is a crime against us? LOL! I think not. Respect is not given, it is earned. People who jump to the head of the line ahead of folks who have been standing in the line a long time get no respect from me.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Yeah, they should be able to call 911 or whatever its equivalent is IN MEXICO and be treated like a citizen. And their children should be welcomed in the schools IN MEXICO. It is not the duty of Americans to pay for every blessed thing illegal aliens want for goodness sakes.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
Comments (84 - 119) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestYou've argued that mexican-americans want to see illegal immigrants sent back to their home countries and you've argued that Cesar Chavez felt this way.
#44. To: mirage (#43)
#45. To: Red Jones (#21)
Mirage: Some Mexican-Americans are Minutemen. Some are Border Patrol agents.
#46. To: Red Jones, mirage (#44)
On a few occasions, concerns that undocumented migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of undocumented immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and US Senator Walter Mondale.[6] In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report undocumented immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[7][8][9][10][11]
#47. To: Red Jones (#44)
we have actual protests in arizona in favor of the illegals. they're almost all mexicans & mexican americans protesting.
#48. To: SonOfLiberty, Red Jones (#46)
#49. To: mirage (#45)
#50. To: mirage (#47)
Would you care to tell me I never did any of that?
#51. To: Red Jones (#12)
These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home. These ethnic mexicans don't want new illegals coming. but they will not allow the illegal mexicans to be sent back.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#52. To: mirage (#48)
#53. To: Red Jones (#26)
Saying that Washington was loyal to the english king during that war is exactly the same as saying that Cesar Chavez would kick out the existing illegals in our country.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#54. To: Red Jones (#37)
We don't have any prominent politicians in our whole country who publicly advocate what Ronald Reagan advocated - that we accept the illegals and close the door.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#55. To: Red Jones (#37)
We're far better off at asking the illegals to be citizens and let them be free and equal and then shutting the door.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#56. To: James Deffenbach (#51)
Are you seriously suggesting that the United States CANNOT enforce its immigration laws because of what some yahoos from another country think about it?
#57. To: GreyLmist (#14)
Red Jones: These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#58. To: Red Jones (#44)
You are insane if you think that the ethnic mexican community wants to send them home. they do not, in overwhelming numbers. You live in a dream-world if you think otherwise.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#59. To: James Deffenbach (#53)
Who gives a rat's ass what he would, or wouldn't, do? The fact is that the ILLEGALS are in America ILLEGALLY--is there some part of that that you just can't comprehend?
#60. To: Red Jones (#52)
I said that the ethnic mexicans were overwhelmingly behind the illegals who are already here and in the community.
#61. To: Red Jones (#59)
I think we've explored our differences on this issue adequately. I sincerely hope that somebody might see my point of view as I have tried hard to deliver it.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#62. To: X-15 (#57)
Who do you think the congresscritters listen to: the white majority or the mexicons when they bitch and scream like spoiled brats??
#63. To: Red Jones (#59)
those roots are so deep in our community in that these people hold jobs, pay bills and have children who think that they are Americans that it would be negative for our community to kick them out.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#64. To: Red Jones (#62)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#65. To: Red Jones (#50)
have fun.
#66. To: X-15 (#64)
Read my post again
#67. To: Red Jones (#62)
they can be our allies on this issue, but we must make a deal, the existing illegals stay and we shut off new arrivals. they'll agree to that.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#68. To: Red Jones (#66)
I'm not trying to offend you...you've been indoctrinated to believe in democracy, just as we all have been.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#69. To: James Deffenbach (#61)
America OWES something
#70. To: Red Jones (#62)
we should listen to what the mexicans want if we had any brains at all.
#71. To: Red Jones (#69)
The governments of our states and our national government do owe the existing illegal immigrants something. they have been in our communities and working jobs and existing as people here. you and I don't owe them anything special. but government owes them respect for the fact that they live here,...
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#72. To: Red Jones (#69)
"...the agenda of government should be to serve the people who live here."
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#73. To: Red Jones (#52)
you have no real facts relating to our discussion. just obfuscation and unrelated claims?
When the facts are against you, argue the law.
When everything is against you, pound the table.Here's the ironic part: Despite the fact that Chávez is these days revered among Mexican-American activists, the labor leader in his day was no more tolerant of illegal immigration than the Arizona Minutemen are now. Worried that the hiring of illegal immigrants drove down wages, Chávez – according to numerous historical accounts – instructed union members to call the Immigration and Naturalization Service to report the presence of illegal immigrants in the fields and demand that the agency deport them. UFW officials were even known to picket INS offices to demand a crackdown on illegal immigrants.
#74. To: X-15 (#57)
We've been sold out since 1965 on the immigration issue
#75. To: Red Jones (#0)
________________________________
#76. To: Red Jones (#41)
(Edited)
I do object to the term 'rogue employer'. because in the construction industry here in phoenix it is completely normal that illegal immigrants be hired to do the work.
#77. To: GreyLmist (#76)
This is America for Americans.
#78. To: buckeroo (#70)
to be of any further use to us
#79. To: James Deffenbach (#71)
The government owes the illegal aliens "respect" for invading America? That's a good one
#80. To: mirage (#73)
#81. To: Red Jones (#80)
#82. To: Red Jones (#77)
1. I sincerely hope that I am among the men who are tasked to fight against the invaders.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#83. To: Red Jones (#79)
If they have an emergency situation they should be able to call '911' and be treated like citizens. Their children should be welcomed in the schools.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
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