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Title: Report: 1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent
Source:
East Valley Tribune
URL Source: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/ar ... 84-11df-9c10-001cc4c002e0.html
Published: Aug 11, 2010
Author: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
Post Date: 2010-08-11 21:07:27 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 1434
Comments: 119
Report: 1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:52 pm | Updated: 5:47 pm, Wed Aug 11, 2010. Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services | 2 comments About one out of every 15 children in the United States was born to a family where at least one parent is in this country illegally, according to a new report Wednesday. And four out of five of those 5.1 million children -- including 340,000 born in just 2008 -- are citizens because they were born in the United States, the Pew Hispanic Center concluded. That, according to some, makes them ``anchor babies'' for their illegal parents. The figures, which the organization calculated based on 2009 U.S. Census Bureau estimates, are the best estimates to date of the scope of the issue which has resulted in calls to amend the U.S. Constitution to deny automatic citizenship to children solely by virtue of their birth within this country. That percentage of children of illegal immigrant may be increasing. The overall figure is about 6.8 percent of all children 17 and younger who have at least one illegal immigrant parent. But Pew Hispanic figures that 7.9 percent of all births during 2008 -- that 340,000 figure -- were offspring of "unauthorized'' immigrants. Researchers peg the number of illegal immigrants in the United States at something slightly in excess of 4 percent of the total population. "But because they are relatively young and have high birth rates, their children make up a much larger share of the newborn population and the child population in this country,'' the report states. The report does not say how many of those 5.1 million children of illegal immigrants are in Arizona. But Jeff Passel, the senior demographer at Pew Hispanic Center, pointed to an earlier study which concluded that Arizona has about 4.2 percent of the total illegal immigrants in the entire country. Using that as a rough estimate, that translates to more than 214,000 children from birth through age 17 in the state where at least one parent is not here legally. And, based on the Pew figures nationwide, about 170,000 of these would be considered "anchor babies'' born in this country. That also tracks with estimates in previous Pew reports which show that up to 110,000 children in Arizona public schools were born in this country into families where one or both parents are undocumented, with possibly 65,000 more school children who are themselves illegal immigrants. The numbers will figure in the debate over the future of the 14th Amendment. It states that children born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of both this country and the state where they reside. Courts have interpreted that to entitle citizenship to those born in the United States regardless of whether one or both parents had no legal right to be here. Some foes, including Sen. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, argue those rulings are flawed. He noted that the amendment makes its provisions conditional on the children being "subject to the jurisdiction'' of this country. Pearce said courts, citing that language, concluded for years that did not entitle Native Americans to citizenship. "There's no doubt where they were born,'' he said. It was only after Congress specifically altered the law regarding citizenship for Indians that the situation changed. Pearce is weighing whether to have Arizona bring a new challenge to those court rulings. That would take the form of a state law denying birth certificates to children born in Arizona unless they could show at least one parent is in this country legally. That likely would provoke a lawsuit. But Pearce said a simpler course would be to have the issue handled at the federal level. U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., is pushing to amend the Constitution to spell out that mere birth within U.S. borders does not entitle someone to citizenship. That process, though, is cumbersome, requiring either a constitutional convention or ratification of any change approved by two-thirds of the U.S. House and Senate by three-fourths of all state legislatures. Pearce, however, said that's not necessary. "Congress could fix it tomorrow,'' he said. "All it needs is clarification.'' He pointed out that the 14th Amendment, which also deals with issues of voting rights and who can hold office, also spells out that Congress "shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.'' "So they put it in there in case there was some abuse, or something misunderstood,'' Pearce said. Applicable language of 14th Amendment All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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#1. To: Red Jones (#0)
1 in 15? That would be at least 7000 nationwide.
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
Try 700,000. There's at least 50 Million illegals in the United States. I know, I've seen some of the raw data coming in from friends of mine. They say that one in 6 people is an illegal alien. They seem to congregate in the large metropolitan areas where they can essentially go un-noticed, and then spread to the urban and rural areas to mask their numbers. In my neighborhood alone there are at least a dozen. For anyone to say that this isn't an invasion, would be ignorant, and stupid.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
7000 was the number of anchor babies estimated by some crap (yet mainstream) news I saw on TV a couple days ago. It must work, there must be millions of people out there pacified by these lies, why else would the multinational conglomerates spend billions of dollars on companies they already own to keep this dreck on the air? I may have answered my own question. :)
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
The law needs to be changed fast. Illegals who have kids in the USA need to take their kids with them back home. This insanity has to end!
God is always good!
Social Security is saved. Tax the hell out of them.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
Rojo Why are you bitching, these are your "good neighbors"? Enjoy your political choices, you voted for Obama, this is what you wanted.
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
according to international treaties already signed the US has agreed that the foreign workers in our economy and paying into the social security program will receive social security benefits. about 8 years ago the federal government reviewed payroll data from employers all over the nation to identify illegal immigrants paying into the social security program. The purpose was to identify these people so that the accounting on social security contributions could be clarified. That was under the bush admin that millions of illegals were identified and allowed to stay. They will receive social security benefits whether they choose to stay here or not, whether they are deported or not. Mexico will reciprocate and any americans down there paying into their retirement fund will also get benefits from their retirement fund. Don't blame me, this is what republicans and democrats agreed to years ago. Over 20 years ago we were told that it was good for illegals to work in our economy as we were told they'd contribute to social security and not receive benefits. The truth is very different from what we were told.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Bitching means complaining. I wasn't complaining. I only posted an article.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Ah but you see, since they are US Citizens then their foreign income is taxed as well. If they choose to renounce US Citizenship and the Feds think it is for tax purposes, then they get to fork over half of all their assets immediately. Either way, the problem can be solved simply by enforcing existing tax laws. There is also that pesky Selective Service Act. $250,000 fine for not registering and there is NO DISTINCTION between legal or illegal in the act. The Act also requires people to keep the Feds notified of their residence. Simply by enforcing a couple of laws, we can solve all of our revenue issues.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
Rojo That's the point, you love these wetback invaders, don't you?
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
Flintlock - where I live if they kicked out all the illegals, then our tax base would be negatively affected. as you know our economy is in such bad shape that it is not responsible to damage the tax base. That is one reason that I simply don't favor kicking the existing illegals out. I don't prefer that they be turned into guest workers, I prefer they become citizens. But I don't think an immigration reform package will pass unless you do let the existing illegals stay here. Too many people recognize it to be harmful and counter-productive to kick them out. I see the great danger in immigration reform being guest workers. Almost all Republicans favor guest workers, it is an extremely high priority for them. But many democrats do not want any guest workers. it is far worse (IMO) to have a steady stream of guest workers than it is to forgive some illegals and let them stay. It boggles my mind that Ronald Reagan's point of view on this issue is today considered 'liberal' by many who call themselves 'conservative'. Reagan of course wanted to forgive the illegals, but stop employers from hiring new illegals. We never tried to implement that solution. And even back in 1986 it was known that we were not making any effort. Our lawmakers opened the door for illegals. That is what we should understand. You can't reverse that decision.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
they're just ordinary people to me. People under-estimate that you can't send them all home. Consider the ethnic mexicans who were born in our country, the ones whose families may go back generations. I know a mexican guy who is 78 years old and fought in the korean war. These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home. These ethnic mexicans don't want new illegals coming. but they will not allow the illegal mexicans to be sent back. it tears our country apart too much to send them back.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Are you joking? There aren't enough unemployed Americans in your area to fill the job openings and so have more money they could spend into circulation, minus all the costs to the economy that were due to the illegals? Sounds to me like you're not doing the math right.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
They're not dictators here. Watch this 5 min. YouTube video: Longer version posted below it at 4um topic Immigration Gumballs.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
That's why a number of them became Minutemen. Its why Cesar Chavez, the original Minuteman, sent his union thugs to the border with baseball bats. Its why Cesar Chavez worked with INS to deport illegals. Its why a HUGE number of ethnic Mexicans are border patrol agents. Like Compean and Ramos if you remember them. I don't think 'Ramos' is a German or Slavic name, but I could be wrong. They do all that because all ethnic Mexicans think alike and they don't want them sent home.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
there are a lot of employers local who make zero effort whatsoever to hire Americans and instead hire from spanish language sources. that is, they do their advertising for new workers on spanish language media. and then since they don't e-verify they end up hiring 80% illegals. and this is what they do, it is their strategy. They were afraid of the Arizona laws, but over time they have learned not to be afraid. I disapprove of this by the employers. but still, if you push the workforce out of the country it will have a negative impact on the tax base. I'm in favor of keeping the employers from hiring new illegals. The other people in my country insist that the employers always be free to hire foreigners and bring them here to work. Republicans dominate my state's politics. They refuse to penalize employers for hiring foreigners. They insist that when immigration reform occurs that we will have guest workers. Don't blame me for this state of affairs. Where I live if all the children born to illegals were kicked out, then many schools would lose 80% of their students. Many employers would lose key people and a substantial part of their force. when we damage the local tax base, then we reduce local government tax revenue. when we do that, we shut down schools and make many services from the government impossible. where I live it has been discussed cutting police and fire department even though those services have gone for years without their budgets keeping up with inflation.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
these ethnic mexicans I speak of that are in reality americans are a significant part of our communities in states like arizona, texas, new mexico & southern cal. In the 1830's when there was a rebellion by California against Mexico it was ethnic mexicans who were doing the rebellion. They founded California. My ancestors first came to arizona in 1856. there were some ethnic mexicans already here at that time. You don't understand, but you're advocating that we dictate to to them. What I'm telling you is that the hard-line on illegals where we say 'kick them all out' is extremely divisive and makes any solution to illegal immigrant problem impossible.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
if you really want to say and think stupid things because of your politics, then that's your choice. the passion that many Americans have against illegal immigrants among us is extremely divisive. the ethnic mexicans who are in reality mexican-american and US citizens of which I speak do tend to agree with me that they do not want new illegals coming here. They also agree with me that they do not want guest workers. It is the whites who want guest workers and vote for politicians who will bring them. But when it comes to kicking out somebody who has been here for 15 years, holds a responsible job and has children here, then the ethnic mexicans are strongly opposed to kicking people like that out. they recognize anti-mexican passion when they see it. and you are a fool not to be more aware of this.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
you really think that the name Cesar Chavez is a symbol for the people opposed to illegal immigrants? If that is so, then you live in a dream-world. The name Cesar Chavez is used by the ethnic mexicans and they are 100% opposed to kicking out existing illegals. When we have pro-immigrant protests in Arizona the name Cesar Chavez is displayed by the protesters. Cesar Chavez was a supporter of the people who live here and do the work. He would be strongly opposed to guest workers. Republicans and the people who hate illegal immigrants love guest workers. Cesar Chavez' type of politics is very different.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Red - switch to decaf and take a history class or three. You may just learn something. Cesar Chavez DID send goons to the border WITH baseball bats and they DID beat the snot out of border crossers. Just because you choose not to believe it or someone else chooses not to believe it does not make it false. It just means you or they or both are ignorant. As for letting them stay, I'm all for it. Pay the $250,000 Selective Service fine and I'm happy. What, you didn't know that is existing law? Check it out.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
Mirage - you're a nutcase. You've argued that mexican-americans want to see illegal immigrants sent back to their home countries and you've argued that Cesar Chavez felt this way. Mexican americans and Cesar Chavez are exactly like me. They want to see new illegals stopped from coming. They don't want to see people who've lived here and been a part of the community persecuted by deporting them. I live in arizona. I remember the big immigration protest a few years ago. Banners with the name Cesar Chavez were raised up by those people. and those people were protesting in favor of the existing illegal immigrants. You're a nutcase. so cesar chavez opposed the flow of new people here? what else is new? That is very different from bashing the existing people who live here. If the psycho-nuts in our country can't accept the existing illegals out of their own racism and hatred, then we can't hope to achieve any sort of a solution to stop the new flows of people off. Gaining the consensus among us to stop new illegals and/or new guest workers from coming is easy. The mexican-americans are happy to go along with that. But if the deal includes kicking out all the existing illegals, then we'll never have a consensus. You don't know anything about cesar chavez. you are an idiot. and I mean that very sincerely. why do people without brains participate in our national discussion? why are you so alienated from and ignorant of our realities that we live with in the southwest? Yet you insist on commenting.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Calling people "idiot" and "stupid" to try and bolster your point doesn't speak well of your debating skills. You seem, from what I can tell, to be an almost full fledged progressive. Outside of wanting to get rid of the Federal Reserve and trim back the military budget, I can't find a single real point of agreement between you and most anybody here. And now the name calling starts, notably the infamous liberal/progressive fallback of "you're stupid, you're an idiot, you're a racist". Hmmmmmm.....
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
I'm not really trying to score debate points. I'm just telling it like it is and I'd prefer to live in the world of reality. Cesar Chavez is dead. but his image is used by the pro-illegal immigration forces. mirage says that cesar chavez would want to deport the illegals if he was here. This is 100% false, he would be on their side. That is kind of like saying that George Washington was really a loyalist in our revolution because he fought in the french & indian war. I'd really prefer to live in reality than to coddle mirage's delusions. I think it is important to confront people's delusions and mental illnesses when it comes to their political discussions. Cesar Chavez would deport the illegals who've been here for 20 years and have families here. Sure he would. the man's an idiot.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
It has nothing to do with scoring points. It has to do with a lack of effective debating techniques. Falling back on "you're stupid, you're an idiot, you're a racist" (and now, what, mental illness? That's a classic Soviet debate tactic, did you know that?) is base ad hominem and invalidates your points, if you have any, immediately through association. Those very words are almost always used by the far left in "debates" concerning illegal immigration and how to deal with it, and it shows a general tone deafness to any viewpoint but their own. It's fine to try to express viewpoints about Chavez or disagree with somebody's take on him. Opinions differ, especially in regards to union labor activists, but that opinions differ doesn't make somebody stupid, or an idiot, or especially a racist. Those cards are played out now, especially here and on most other non-left forums. They simply do not work, and further, they indicate to the person that you're debating that you're out of facts and short on reason in the debate. Do as you will, I'm trying to help you retain credibility, but you can choose any path of course.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
No. You're worse.
Higher rates of SGA but greater chances of survival within birth weight-for-gestation groups and lower energy expenditure during puberty in African American than non-Hispanic white girls support the possibility that African American girls are born with a lower energy expenditure than non-Hispanic white girls.
up is down. down is up. 2+2=5. are there any other statements you wish me to make in order to respect somebody's sensibilities? insanity is insanity. when people say incredibly ridiculous things like that Cesar Chavez would kick out the illegals, then we should challenge them for this and tell them how stupid (and crazy) it is. Cesar Chavez was a person. But today his symbol is very important to the mexican-american population and to the illegals who came here which is a significant component of the mexican community here. They stick together out of ethnic identification. you cannot divide them is what I've tried to explain to you. It is like I said, George Washington was not loyal to the English king during the Revolution. Saying that Washington was loyal to the english king during that war is exactly the same as saying that Cesar Chavez would kick out the existing illegals in our country. We have a Cesar Chavez high school and a Cesar Chavez park near where I live. Saying what mirage said about Cesar Chavez is like saying that Martin Luther King opposed civil rights in the 1960's. the man is a nut. You say that I should politely ignore mirage's insanity on an important issue because mirage lives apparently in new york city and is oblivious to our realities in the southwest. it is the same as saying that 2+2=5. just because cesar chavez opposed new illegals coming here does not mean that he would kick the existing illegals out. we've known for decades that the mexican-americans are more likely than white americans to want to stop new illegals from coming here. But the illegals that come are mostly mexican. and they are attacked for being mexicans. the existing mexican-americans naturally rally around them to defend them. Cesar Chavez was like that. He was a mexican-american himself. I've tried to explain that you are not going to stop the flow of new illegals and/or new guest workers unless you respect the existing illegals who have come here and earned a place in our society through their daily work. If you insist on disrespecting these people out of hatred caused by whatever source, then you are causing our country to have to put up with new people coming - forever. next, mirage will say that Cesar Chavez really favored guest workers. Republicans favor guest workers. Cesar Chavez did not. Republicans will not allow a solution to our immigration mess unless that solution includes guest workers.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
No it doesn't make any solution to the illegal alien migrant problem impossible. That is the solution which should penalize them as well with never being able to apply for citizenship here.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
so you'd rather just bury your head in bigotry and accept an endless stream of guest workers that the republicans want in order to destroy our labor market for white Americans? You'd rather do that than respect people of another ethnic group? People on this web site are saying that people who grew up here in America and speak english as a first language should be deported, people who think in their minds that they are American, people who've never even been to these countries that you want them deported to. and they'd rather stick with this bigotry even though it means we can't find a solution and in the end our inability to find a solution empowers those politicians who want guest workers. If we can't treat people decently and try to provide justice for people's situations in life, then why are we so arrogant to think that such justice will be provided to us? and if you can't see the injustice of deporting somebody who has a place here and not there, then you're hopeless. the end result is that you want to divide our country up into factions and ruin us, for what? For guest workers and employer sensibilities?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I honestly don't care about Chavez or your debate about him with mirage. What I'm telling you is that running around screaming "mental illness!" "stupid!" and "idiot!" during a discussion will get you put on the bozo-filter by most people here in short order. So you can choose to use your voice to express your viewpoint and have people listen, or you can sneer, call names, and call people mentally ill for not seeing your delivered wisdom, and soon find yourself talking to...yourself. Just saying. Do as you will.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
that is the kind of a political view that makes a solution impossible. and it enables the republicans who want guest workers. Some republicans want to turn the existing illegals into guest workers and then bring in more guest workers. Some republicans want to kick the illegals out, bar them from ever coming back and also bring in new guest workers. Some democrats will not tolerate the existing illegals being kicked out. Some democrats will not tolerate guest workers. and so we as a people cannot even bring about a situation where employers are penalized for hiring illegals - even though it is widely stated on all sides that we should stop the flow of new illegals. a sad pitiful situation. I would rather compromise and let the existing illegals stay and then stop all new illegals as well as not have guest workers. The democrats will go along with that solution. That solution was proposed by Ronald Reagan. It is today's republicans who will not allow that solution. I am becoming convinced that one of the reasons we can't find a solution is because of intractable opinions motivated by racism. Many Americans are uncomfortable with the idea that all of our workers will be free and able to quit their employers. They want kept people for the employers. They want semi-slaves. It is no different from 300 years ago. Many people where I live speak a foreign language. I am not happy over this. It did not used to be that way. We are being divided up because of these bigotries. Our laws were arranged to facilitate that they come. We can't change that mistake retro-actively. We can only change it for the future.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Ah, I see, so you're all for adding 20+ million new voters to the Democrats roll. Well isn't that just dandy? Why not have them go through the same process every legal immigrant has gone through? We can't why? Because they broke the law, so they're immune from any other requirements? Again, dandy. Of course you're convinced of that. This is the talking point put forward by the progressives. If you don't agree to anything they dictate, then you're a racist. That's the line. Um, hate to point it out, but the House and Senate both are fully controlled by Democrats, and there's a Democrat in the White House. It's not the Republicans doing it guy. You need to get an update on your talking points.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
I can certainly appreciate that. but OTOH when I use these words 'insane', 'mental illness', 'stupid', I am discussing. Those words have meanings. if you follow the discussion we're having mirage implied that Cesar Chavez wanted to kick out illegal immigrants from mexico who have been here for 20 years. It is exactly the same as saying that up is down. Mirage doesn't know anything about the mexican-american community and cesar chavez. He's completely insane on that point. I don't see how we can have a discussion when every time someone interjects something that stupid we're not allowed to challenge them with plain words that speak the truth.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Not knowing something, or disagreeing about the facts, doesn't make somebody insane. You're "allowed" to say anything you want. I'm just telling you, that falling back on standard leftist sneering insults will be the most effective way to silence yourself that you can find. There's nothing more really to say about it from my point. Cheers.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
So, what you're trying to tell me in your first two paragraphs is that if the illegal alien migrant workforce was pushed out of the country, your area's taxbase would not recover by employment of Americans instead because the businesses there would discriminate against them and import guest workers from Spanish language sources? Which businesses there should be investigated for that discriminatory practice? If the schools have to close down from deportation of illegals, good, imo. Then students could be homeschooled online or alternative schooled, likely much better overall and more efficiently. Arizona could save lots of money that's being wasted on the current dinosaur system and so could the Federal government. Many teachers and their subdivisions and their union key people and such would just have to...what's the word?...retrain for other careers like other Americans have been told to do. As for the police and fire department situation you mentioned, it's likewise here. I got stopped at one of the periodic Gestapo checkpoints they set up within the last year or so and the policeman introduced himself, then said he was from the next county over. I was in a hurry and didn't feel like chatting so I didn't ask him if he was lost, like I should have for being out of his jurisdiction. Since then, there's been some merger so maybe he was...in- training for that or something.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Martin Luther King was opposed to the civil rights laws of 1964 and 1965. George Washington fought for the King of England in our revolution. You're an idiot if you believe those statements. insane is a reasonable description of people who believe those statements. I'm not going to sacrifice on our pursuit of the truth for an insane person's sensibilities that they don't like having their feelings hurt when I speak the simple truth about them. e plurubus unim. spelled it wrong no doubt. but what it means is that we have to work hard as a people to be one people, because we come from different roots. we used to do that. and we were good at it. we should not be divided. how does it relate? We better accept the existing illegals or we will not be able to stop new guest workers or new illegals from coming here. You're not going to divide the ethnic mexicans among us up and get them to be against each other. they will unite. they're willing to unite as americans if we respect them, but if you push them and disrespect some of them, then they will unite as mexicans and at least in the southwest we whites will be the minority and we will be persecuted.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I said I was through. Not going to belabor the point that you refuse to grasp. Your fate is in your own hands kid. Later gator.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
if you want to nurture the tax base, then you should nurture people who produce in the economy. the illegal immigrants that are here are producers. If you were to deport them, then yes it would shock our economy and we would immediately have a smaller economy. We would be able to move american workers into those jobs. but it would take time to recover in terms of the economy's size. in the meantime the local governments would collect less tax revenue. that would be extremely negative for our people. an economy should be nurtured for the sake of prosperity for the people. not deported. I've told you that the reality here in Arizona is that many employers make no effort to hire americans at all. they do not advertise for people in english language sources, they prefer spanish language sources and use practices that result not only in systematic persecution against non-hispanic people, but hire an awful lot of illegal immigrants. this situation is ubiquitous in my state. I would like to stop this situation and I feel like I get no help at all from my fellow Americans on it. Some people fantasize that SB1070 stops employers from behaving this way. That is complete fantasy, I wish that my fellow americans would live inside the world of reality. We don't have any prominent politicians in our whole country who publicly advocate what Ronald Reagan advocated - that we accept the illegals and close the door. We have never even tried to implement that solution that he favored. I wish we would do that. and I warn you over and over again that we will not be able to kick the existing illegals out and still keep democrat support for the reform. It is a choice between accepting a permanent stream of new guest workers or accepting the existing illegals. We're far better off at asking the illegals to be citizens and let them be free and equal and then shutting the door.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
This has nothing to do with racism. This is where I could use your charged medical-lingo or other terms like "obtuse" for your incessant refusal to comprehend that fact but won't cuz I'm trying to be civil. We aren't griping about legal citizens here who are of Mexican/Hispanic origin. That the illegals happen to be largely of that nationality/ethnicity isn't our doing and has about nothing to do with our not wanting millions upon millions more of them suddenly on our citizenship rolls, other than that would put them way over the limit as compared to other applicants. There was already a deal made years ago to give illegals a path to citizenship. That is what encouraged them to keep coming, far more than the rogue employers you point to, and things only got worse and worse in this country because of it. Been there, done that, bad idea. How have you failed to understand that? How many are not working and are being paid by state subsidies to do nothing constructive while they try to wait around for another mass "amnesty" to make them citizens? How many don't really even want to be citizens because then they'd have to deal with all the red tape and taxation and other rigamarole that we do to find and keep a job? We don't have to compromise and give them citizenship in order to stop all new illegals and have no guest workers. That's a false argument. You claim Republicans want guest workers. Looks to me and others like Democrats really want more Democrat voters. Tomato, tomahto. Let's call the whole guest worker v. citizenship thing off. O-U-T, out all ya'all go right now and don't come around here no more! Guest workers, too -- get gone and stay gone!Employers -- expect to be shut down, charged, fined, and jailed for hiring any of them. Whatdya say we draft a bill that basically says that in legalese and fax it to Congress so they don't have to work so hard to get it to their floors for a vote? If they vote no, we can send it back to them. Election time is coming up. They might even be more in favor of it now than you'd care to imagine.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
I've told you that the reality here in Arizona is that many employers make no effort to hire americans at all. they do not advertise for people in english language sources, they prefer spanish language sources and use practices that result not only in systematic persecution against non-hispanic people, but hire an awful lot of illegal immigrants. this situation is ubiquitous in my state. I would like to stop this situation and I feel like I get no help at all from my fellow Americans on it. I think what you need more help on is the math. Taxpaying American workers in all jobs that should be available by the deportation of illegals should increase your taxbase, not decrease it. They'd have more money for sales taxes on purchases they couldn't afford if unemployed. The community would be smaller but so would the expenses for it. You seem genuinely concerned for the effects on illegals, much more so than the burdensome effects on your fellow Americans under the current conditions, but why isn't your state doing something to at least raise taxes on those businesses that are consuming your resources there to discriminate against Arizonans?
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
well thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. We just disagree on that though.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
The fact that the employers were allowed to hire the illegals with no penalty is what caused them to keep coming. because there was opportunity here expressly for them. and I do object to the term 'rogue employer'. because in the construction industry here in phoenix it is completely normal that illegal immigrants be hired to do the work. and I am going to keep repeating it - there are no real penalties to employers even today for hiring illegals. they do it every day. every employer knows, if you e-verify then you are trying to screen out illegals. If you do not, then you are hiring illegals. I know a scottish fellow who is an illegal immigrant. His parents live here, he's 35. he just flew in from canada a few months ago to try to look for a job and a life. He doesn't care if he's illegal or not. Most employers don't either.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
how are you going to get this legislation passed to penalize employers for hiring illegals? In 1986 Ronald Reagan came on tv and told us he would sign the immigration reform package that took so much effort to pass despite that that legislation had in his opinion a huge flaw. He said the legislation does not force employers to validate if who they're hiring is legal or not and he said that they would be able to hire illegals without penalty. He said we needed to fix that by passing legislation. It's been 24 years. How are we going to do that? Obviously, we should vote people like Senator McCain who voted for that immigration reform bill as a congressman in 1986 out. We can agree on that. All politicians who voted for that bill should be voted out. but our news media is 100% against us. They're going to keep our people confused and ignorant about it all. we've got obstacles. and from a practical point of view you are going to have to compromise (at best). just my opinion anyway. but from a technical point of view you are correct, we don't have to compromise. I just think it wise to do so and I think if we want to avoid guest workers, we better find some allies who are against guest workers. That means you need people sympathetic to the illegals on your side.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Welcome to the truth. Facts are inconvenient things. It doesn't matter what you think of me or what you think of reality. Truth is truth whether you like it or not.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
we have actual protests in arizona in favor of the illegals. they're almost all mexicans & mexican americans protesting. They are protesting that there be no deporting of people and to let the illegals stay. and they raise up banners sometimes with cesar chavez' name on it. you can convince me that cesar was against new illegals coming here. You are insane if you think that the ethnic mexican community wants to send them home. they do not, in overwhelming numbers. You live in a dream-world if you think otherwise. if we want to solve this problem, then we must respect the sensibilities of the mexicans. You can't get agreement from the democrats unless you do this. if you don't get agreement from the democrats, then you'll get guest workers which is what the republicans want and which is worse than illegal immigrants. and I don't think anything negative of you. I just think you're nuts.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Now, let's pick apart your argument. Red Jones: All Mexican-Americans are on-board with no deportation. Who is right and who is wrong? You are 100% WRONG. You claim all, meaning 100%, meaning every single one. I never made that claim. You say I did. You are wrong again. That is simply not true. You claim history is wrong. YOU ARE WRONG. I'll take your apology and retraction any time you want to give it.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
Just did a cursory search on Chavez. Here's what I found. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Ch%C3%A1vez "The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
No kidding. I lived in California for many years. I voted for Prop 187. Would you care to tell me I never did any of that? You also claim I've never seen any of this. Would you like to dig a deeper hole for yourself or would you prefer to apologize and stop now?
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
That is because Chavez was a Union Leader and while he championed the rights of legal immigrants, he also understood the laws of Supply and Demand. With an unlimited supply of cheap labor, Chavez would never be able to organize a union or get away with demanding better treatment or higher wages. In short, Chavez understood reality and also argued for immigration restrictions. The real history is very much different from the "folk tales" that people think they know. It always is. The sad thing is that too many people buy into the folk tales and never look at what really happened.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
mirage, you're an idiot. I never argued that ALL mexican americans want this or want that. I said the overwhelming majority do not want the illegals sent home. and I said that it was ludicrous to think that if cesar chavez was alive then he would want them sent home, and if you look at the context of our conversation and what you said you implied that - that cesar chavez would be for deporting people. It is exactly the same as saying that MLK was against civil rights in the 1960's. You are an idiot. you build up little logic games based on garbage. don't you have anything better to do with your time?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
here's what I'd like to tell you. you're an idiot. you simply enjoy dysfunctionalism and meaningless argument. mental masturbation and argument for argument's sake is what you're into. have fun.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
The hell you say! What would they do about it? Are you seriously suggesting that the United States CANNOT enforce its immigration laws because of what some yahoos from another country think about it? Do you think that Americans can go to Mexico and demand that they be given special treatment and allowed to stay and that no other Americans can be deported or jailed for committing crimes? I don't believe you are that stupid.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. that is all you have mirage. you're just a bluffer. you have no real facts relating to our discussion. just obfuscation and unrelated claims? mirage - something illusory, without substance or reality. that is you. I said that the ethnic mexicans were overwhelmingly behind the illegals who are already here and in the community. and that is 100% true. anyone who doesn't take that fact seriously is not interested in solving this issue. I never said 'all', you said that I said 'all'. and you offerred evidence of this labor union leader named Chavez from 1969?????? There's a huge difference between trying to stop new illegals from coming and kicking out the existing ones. You can't even get the 2 ideas straight in your mind as you've confused them. discussion with you is an illusion. now I see why you selected your name.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Who gives a rat's ass what he would, or wouldn't, do? The fact is that the ILLEGALS are in America ILLEGALLY--is there some part of that that you just can't comprehend? They need to go get in the back of the line, behind the people who have been trying to come into the country legally and have been waiting in some cases for years. The illegals and their supporters can whine and bitch all they want to but they need to go to the back of the line. And if they won't do that I have no sympathy or respect for them and I certainly have none for their supporters.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Reagan was wrong. What he should have done is what Eisenhower did. Have another Operation Wetback and deport the illegals. And not just an escort to the border either but delivered so far down in Mexico that they couldn't just waltz back across the border the minute your back was turned.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It won't work. You give the ones here now amnesty and that is a green light for many more millions of them to come in, knowing that in a few years people like you will be clamoring to allow them to stay too. America is being buried by delusional liberals.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. James, don't be offended when I tell you this because I'm not happy about it. but we can't even pass a law to penalize employers for hiring illegal immigrants. Its been 24 years since government purposely passed a law to provide a procedure through which employers could hire illegals without penalty. In 24 years we can't even correct that 'mistake'. Our people pretend that congress made a mistake. They made no mistake. People stood on the floor of the House and they said that if the legislation was passed, then black market sources would make up fake documents in large quantity, sell them to illegal immigrants and these people would move into our work force in large numbers. I read in the WSJ at the time that congressmen stood up and said that in the House before this legislation was passed. The WSJ said that leadership of the US Senate would not allow any legislation to even be voted on that would force employers to stop hiring illegals. Ronald Reagan said this too on national tv. we can't even pass a law to force our own employers to hire our own people rather than foreigners in our own country. The US of A is an un-done, un-tied country. The interests of the Americans mean nothing to our government. and our people are too feeble to even think about this, much less do anything about it. Half the flag-wavers who rail against illegal immigration will vote for politicians who tell them that they'll bring in guest workers. and guest workers are the same as illegal immigrants. Our system is completely dysfunctional in that our government does not act in our interests at all. Lots of other countries have governments much more responsive to their people than our government. In europe they were dissatisfied with illegal immigration and with legal immigration. they passed laws to cut it way back and they did that. we in america do not have the same influence on our government that they have. for 24 years we've been unable to pass a law to punish employers for hiring illegals. and our people don't even know this. They are against illegal immigrants, but they don't even know why we have them. How can we possibly assert our will through our government? About 3 months ago I was having casual conversation with illegal immigrants from mexico. they were talking about how America is really going downhill dramatically. they see us as a feeble people. we are. They were not gloating over this, they were just speaking 'matter-of-fact'.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
GreyLmist: They're not dictators here. Oh yes, they most definitely run the show here in America. Who do you think the congresscritters listen to: the white majority or the mexicons when they bitch and scream like spoiled brats?? We've been sold out since 1965 on the immigration issue, and it pisses me off every day I open my eyes on this Earth.
__________________________________________________________ And if the Mafia started protesting because bank robbers were being tried and jailed, so what? What difference should it make to AMERICANS what a bunch of Mexicans think about the immigration policies? I think our congress should have an immigration law that mirrors Mexico's and then laugh like hell when the hypocritical Mexicans start talking about how terrible it is. Because Mexico is far more strict on illegal aliens than America ever has been. And they don't allow them to stay either. Imagine that, a bunch of hypocrites and you're taking up for them.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I got side-tracked on a discussion with an illusion who calls himself mirage. they're here illegally, I respect your point. but I don't respect the law. because the law was modified to let them come here. it was always illegal for them to come, always illegal for the employer to hire them, but no penalty to the employer, the law was purposely made to avoid a penalty to the employer. and as you know, there's generally been no penalty to the 'illegal' either. the resulting situation was that 25 million people came and put down roots here. those roots are so deep in our community in that these people hold jobs, pay bills and have children who think that they are Americans that it would be negative for our community to kick them out. I think we've explored our differences on this issue adequately. I sincerely hope that somebody might see my point of view as I have tried hard to deliver it.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Yes you did. So, you think all Ethnic Mexicans think alike. Is it some or all? You keep saying "Ethnic Mexicans" as if all of them think alike. So let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you really think they all think alike? If you didn't, then you would have said, "some". Keep digging.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
I doubt you will find many people who post on this board who are sympathetic to the illegals no matter what sob story they tell. Certainly folks who post on boards more in tune with thinking America OWES something to the illegals might think that it would be wrong to deport them. But so long as Americans have to jump through all kinds of hoops to enter other countries, and especially to be allowed to stay, and when Americans dare not try to influence their government or elections under penalty of time in a foreign hell hole jail, I doubt you will find all that many Americans sympathetic to the illegals and clamoring to allow them to stay.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. please don't be offended. but only people of lower intelligence believe that our government listens to us. neither the white americans, black americans or mexican-americans want guest workers. but the politicians tell us that they will give us guest workers. who are they (the politicians) listening to? it is not us. lesson - we'd better stick with the mexican-americans on this issue and let the illegals stay or else we'll be run over by government like a steam-roller compacting asphalt. I think one thing that I wish to communicate to others outside of Arizona is that Arizona and other border states are becoming majority mexican. the whites are becoming the minority. so perhaps this affects my sensitivity to mexican-american sensibilities. I like to speak english. Some people have hostilities to white people and would like to force us to speak spanish. we shouldn't be dividing ourselves up. we should listen to what the mexicans want if we had any brains at all. they can be our allies on this issue, but we must make a deal, the existing illegals stay and we shut off new arrivals. they'll agree to that. our government won't agree. the threat to us is not the ethnic mexicans. the threat is the regime that rules our country.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
That's PRECISELY the reason that illegals and their American-born brats should be forcibly evicted: the rest of the planet will get the message and stop the gate-crashing. I have no sympathy for the American-born children of illegal invaders, their PARENTS put them in an untenable position. Forcible eviction would see many of these parents killed by their children, a just consequence in my book.
__________________________________________________________ Read my post again: I said that the congresscritters listen to the invaders, NOT the white Americans.
__________________________________________________________ It is no fun having to show you that you buy into folklore and stereotypes and don't bother to actually look at reality. The fact is that Cesar Chavez wanted immigration restrictions. He sent people down to the border. That was lost in the folklore and you, my friend, are too lazy to check your facts. When someone calls you out for not having all the facts, you launch into a tizzy of namecalling and make yourself look like a fool. The fact is that not all people of Mexican heritage want an amnesty, but you think they are all on the same page. Do you also think there is no such thing as a Black Conservative as well? Do you think they are all followers of Jesse Jackson? Grow up, Red. There is a bigger world out there than what you think it is and people are not all the same. You are wrong. You keep proving yourself wrong. To cover for it, you launch into a batch of namecalling. You have no argument. You have no facts. All you have is blather and insults. Grow up, child.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
I'm not trying to offend you. I saw what you wrote. I responded to you that the government does not listen to the whites or the ethnic mexicans. I call them ethnic mexicans because they are usually american in their national identity. they are mexican in their ethnic identification. then there are some who are actual mexicans from mexico. You assumed that the government listens to somebody among the people because you've been indoctrinated to believe in democracy, just as we all have been. but democracy is dysfunctional. the government doesn't care at all for the sensibilities, interests or desires of the people. and it doesn't matter what color you are. when the mexicans were down in mexico they were getting treated like garbage by their own government. then they come up here and complain about our government treating them like garbage. the mexican government let US grain into mexico with no tariffs. Problem - US grain being subsidized very heavily where farmers get as much government money as money from selling grain, the mexican farmers couldn't compete. result - 25 million mexicans pushed off the land in 10 years time. Their government devalued their currency by about 75% all at once and also at the same time contracted their money supply dramatically. this caused a huge downturn in the mexican economy. this is why they came here.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
You sound like you spend most of your time on Fantasy Island. The illegals may agree with you to your face but then be on the phone talking to their cousins, uncles and whoever else back home in Mexico telling them to get ready to load up and come to America. That they have found Americans who are so foolish that they are going to give them amnesty like they did in '86 and in a few more years they will do it again. You know, one of the better definitions of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result every time. But you keep on doing what you always did and you're gonna keep getting what you always got. Want more illegals? Reward them with amnesty.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Speak for yourself, I'm just old enough that I escaped the "democracy" train in public school.
__________________________________________________________ I do appreciate you politely and sincerely explaining these things to me. regarding this 'america owes something' idea and the illegals. I will disagree with you on that idea on philosophical grounds. The governments of our states and our national government do owe the existing illegal immigrants something. they have been in our communities and working jobs and existing as people here. you and I don't owe them anything special. but government owes them respect for the fact that they live here, this is their home, government should serve the people who live here. that is powerful dissent that I offer. but I believe that. Government should serve the people who live here. Our government has played an agenda of letting them come to drive wages down, to keep employers happy, to divide us up, to do away with the middle-class. All of those agendas are illegitimate. but instead, the agenda of government should be to serve the people who live here.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Isn't that idea of yours akin to cowering down while a rapist has his way with your wife? It is obvious you are too conditioned by your Mexican friends to be of any further use to us, as rightful citizens of the USA.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
The government owes the illegal aliens "respect" for invading America? That's a good one. Which comedian do you write for or do you have a stand up routine of your own? They (the illegal aliens) "have been in our communities" [uninvited] "and working jobs" [while actual Americans are unemployed] and "existing as people here" [what, they "existed as frogs" in Mexico?]. And I already knew that I didn't owe them anything but neither does the government. The government owes it to Americans to stop the invasion and deport the people who are in America illegally. The space they are taking up could be filled by people who applied for citizenship and who have been waiting a long time for it. People who never thought they had a right to jump the line ahead of everyone else like your illegal alien Mexicans think.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The agenda of the government should be to confine itself to the duties specifically laid out for it in the Constitution. I have yet to find the clause that states the government has any duty to serve illegal aliens anything beyond sending them back to their own country and I have found that the government is SUPPOSED to protect the states from invasion. If they did that they would be "serving the people who live here LEGALLY." And that is the point you seem intent on missing.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. You're using lawyer's tactics. When the law is against you, argue the facts. You are pounding the table. When even Wikipedia is against you, you deny it. When even Ruben Navarette is against you, you deny it. Here is the quote from Ruben: And in 1973, in one of the most disgraceful chapters in UFW history, the union set up a "wet line" to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States. Under the guidance of Chávez 's cousin, Manuel, UFW members tried at first to convince the immigrants not to cross. When that didn't work, they physically attacked the immigrants and left some bloody in the process. It happened in the same place that the Minutemen are now planning to gather: the Arizona-Mexico border. At the time, The Village Voice said that the UFW conducted a "campaign of random terror against anyone hapless enough to fall into its net." In their book, "The Fight in the Fields," Susan Ferris and Ricardo Sandoval recall the border incident and write that the issue of how to deal with the undocumented was "particularly vexing" for Chávez. How much more do I have to throw at you? Would you like me to start quoting biographies? Do you need video? You are wrong.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
There's a topic for another thread -- the post-Dallas coup, the Johnson era, and who was pushing disasterous immigration policies at that time.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
you know, I just can't remember how many mexican rocket scientists I've seen carting their cyclotrons and high power microscopes on their backs as they cross the Rio Grande to sneak across the border....but thats just me...
__________________________________ No it's not "normal". It's wrong no matter how many rogues are doing it. You keep pushing a "lesser of two evils" pick as if giving citizenship to criminal invaders is the better option than guest workers. I disagree but we don't have to go with the guest worker option either. Both are wrong choices and not required. So, there's your wanted "compromise" -- neither; off the table now and into the shredder. We aren't the UN. This is America for Americans. You act as if Federal laws not targeting rogue employers hiring illegals is the main problem but did not answer my question about why Arizona hasn't acted to penalize discriminatory businesses there that avoid hiring Americans while consuming its resources. Arizona most certainly could and should do so, not just the Federales. Answer the question, please -- and I think you should also say something about why you think it's America's job to provide Mexicans with jobs and better living conditions, even though so many of our businesses have impoverished this country by moving to Mexico via NAFTA to do that for them and still Mexico feigns being too poor and/or deranged to provide for its own.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
yes, that is very nice. Perhaps according to standards of justice the creator has provided - America is for the Americans - as you say. Divine providence is ours in our country, I will agree with that. But our lawmakers, our business institutions, our people even, our educators, our religious leaders simply do not have that understanding that 'america is for the americans'. we have laws in our country that give special tax breaks to foreign-born people when they buy business franchises like hotels or convenience stores. Normally convenience stores and hotels even are franchised and there is a big corporation that sells each facility to a business person and then this business person operates the hotel/convenience store under the corporate rules of the franchise. These deals are financed. If whoever purchases the franchised business can qualify for the tax break, then the financier can provide better financing, meaning a higher sales price. A higher sales price because the expenses of operating calculate out lower over time, calculate lower because of the special tax break on income taxes that foreign born people get in the US. In this manner incentives are built in to make it in the corporation's interest to sell the franchise to a foreign-born person. this is the key reason why so many hotels and convenience stores are owned by foreign born people in the US. this is the reason why so many such institutions favor hiring foreign born people at those locations. they favor hiring their family and friends who happen to be foreign-born. The federal government has a law that favors them. we have lots of common practices that favor foreign born people in jobs. An economist did a study a few years ago and found that over a period of about 2 years he studied 91% of all new jobs in america went to foreign born people. I witnessed an employer in the construction industry decide not to even try to hire any americans for their work. I heard a part-owner of a trades contractor say that it was a waste of time, in justification of his decision to advertise for job openings in a spanish language radio station and hire 100% foreigners who are likely illegal. this happens every day. and it is OK according to the law. My point is that america is not for the americans according to how things are done. and anybody who tries to say these things in public is told to shut up and if they persist they're said to be racists. We're a nation that doesn't even know how to stand up for our own national interest. Don't blame me for that. You asked me very sincerely to comment as to why arizona does not pass a law to punish the employers for this behavior. Please don't hold me responsible for the Arizona republicans. they don't work for me. I could just as easily say that we should boycott people from Illinois or otherwise hate them because Obama came from Illinois. and the Obama government pursues policies of war and torture which are abhorrent, therefore we should persecute Illinois. Is it really a person in Illinois' fault if the washington government does evil things. Its not my fault and not your fault either that the washington government does evil things. You asked me to say why I thought it was America's job to provide jobs for mexicans. James told me we didn't owe them (Mexicans) anything. I answered him and told him what we owe them is respect. Especially if they live here and fit in as workers and community members. They came. They took the jobs. The employers did favor them. Even though we were wronged by the institutions that rule our country and we feel a very deep grievance over that, we should still remember that we have an obligation to do the right thing. And we shouldn't want wrong done to these illegal immigrants who do live here. I know that some of you have told me you don't care about their children born here. I respect your feelings. But I'm not going to go tell some 8-year old kid that his life must be turned upside down because his mommy & daddy were on the wrong side of a policy dispute. and I won't say it is a just thing if my government does that. a little kid growing up in our community is a high priority. Our world should be ordered so that the kid has a good place to live. injustice that reigns down on us does not remove this simple obligation that we have. my christian mindset leads me to the conclusions that it happens to be completely normal in the course of human history that people are treated very badly, and we are under a test given to us by our creator, a test to see how we will perform under these conditions, will we do wrong or will we not do wrong. The world is going to be screwed up. We can't control that. But we can control whether or not we ourselves contribute towards doing bad things. as I said at the top of this post I do buy the 'divine providence' idea that America is for the Americans, I think the creator made it so. But the creator is letting our country be destroyed. And we can't argue with the creator on that point. But following is what I have to tell you regarding this idea of our country and divine providence. Our nation is the greatest nation on gods green earth. We Americans tend to believe that very easily and I for one do believe that. Our accomplishments are many and mighty. Economic development that affected the lives of ordinary people on this planet began when our nation came into being. We were the catalyst as well as one of the main engines of economic development world-wide. that is simple history and not my opinion. For 30 consequtive decades from 1700 to 2000 our nation was a great trail-blazer essentially in all of the industries that caused economic development during that time. There were times during that 30 decade run when other nations contributed, but there was never a decade during that stretch when our nation was not the key leading nation in economic development for every important industry. These achievements did not happen without god. It was divine providence that caused these achievements. We should not let pride convince us otherwise. Because I say god is responsible for our nation's great achievements please don't think that I dis-respect the Americans among whom are my ancestors in their sacrifices and achievements. I am no fool. None of my ancestors came here to america after 1840. I'm descendant from people who were here in the 1600's. I'm descendant from 3 men who fought on our side in the revolution. I'm descendant from 2 men who fought for the north in that war and from 1 who fought for the south. We have a letter at my mother's house from my ancestor describing an indian attack on their home in Ohio in the 1820's. I'm descendant from a man who spent 25 years in the US Army beginning in 1856. That career included not just the civil war, but an awful of Indian fighting in Arizona. I read his letters too that described some of it. I'm as American as any of you and very happy to be so. But my christian faith tends to convince me that these fantastic achievements that no other nation can begin to match occurred because of divine favor. What god is doing now with our nation is letting it be destroyed. He let those evil people rule our country. We can do nothing about these things. One day our nation will be attacked militarily and completely destroyed. The whole world will sit back and marvel at our destruction. At that time jesus will return. He will return here to our country. and then he will raise people from the dead. The invading army itself will be defeated with the help of these people raised up from the dead. God will maintain that record throughout our entire history, that we will not be defeated in military action. but at the same time, our destruction will be overwhelming. There will be little left of our nation. Some time after these things occur our nation will be once again restored, and it will be god deciding when and how it will be restored. Why do I think these things? Because I've read the christian prophecies, and I read George Washington's prophecy too, and I've seen what is going on in this world. That is why. I think god gave us George Washington and used George Washington to speak this prophecy which was given to GW by means of an angel who visited him (George Washington says at least). I think god favors us just that much that he will do that for us. but we must understand that god does not orchestrate that human history unfold for our purposes, our pleasure, our pride, etc. It is orchestrated for god's purposes. Those purposes are spelled out in the book, if you were to read it. We should be humble and remember these things about our country. George Washington's prophecy specifically says that jesus will return here to America. I can imagine that he would go to Mount Vernon in Virginia where George Washington is buried. I can imagine that he would go to Arlington Cemetery. I sincerely hope that I am among the men who are tasked to fight against the invaders. What purpose do we have on this earth except to be loyal to that cause given to us by god? God made me an American. I'll be loyal to that cause. At the same time, god made me with a sense of justice and charity in my heart for downtrodden people. So I don't join in on illegal immigrant bashing. and when you want me to do that I just ask why it is that if the illegals are so bad, then why are employers not given penalties for hiring them?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
buck, I really don't care if I'm of any use to you at all. I hope you won't be offended that I have never thought that you were of any use to me either.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I knew you'd be offended that I said our governments owed the illegal immigrants 'respect' if they've lived here and put down roots. I didn't want to offend you. If they have an emergency situation they should be able to call '911' and be treated like citizens. Their children should be welcomed in the schools. Their children are in the schools, but sometimes they have a hard time getting them enrolled in the schools because of their illegal status. Well, we let them come, we have an obligation to at least respect their presence. They can be our friends at this point or our enemies. We don't want them to be our enemies because they are becoming the majority in many places. Since they've lived here and worked here things have changed, we owe them respect as people who live here. They're part of our community now. I realize we disagree on this point, I apologize, but thats how I feel. an irony is that if we 'solve' this problem per my recommendation, then I would get every single illegal immigrant sat down with a government agent in a room and tell them flat to their face that they have a choice. either they can sign a paper agreeing to become a US citizen within 'x' years and do all the things they must to become a US citizen, such as speak english, and renounce their other citizenship, or else they can go home - immediately. I'd give them that choice. They'd almost all become US citizens is what they would do. Its not in our interest to make them hate us.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
a mirage is an illusion. Can't have a discussion with an illusion. the nature of your discussion indicates that there is no real discussion with you, it is a mirage.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Well so far I've proven you wrong on everything, so you're choosing to duck and ignore now. Lawyers' tricks all. In a real debate, resorting to insults signals surrender. I'm still waiting for your retraction and apology. I accept your surrender.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
2. James told me we didn't owe them (Mexicans) anything. I answered him and told him what we owe them is respect. 1. Uh, why are you going to fight the invaders sometime in the future when you are welcoming them now? Sounds a bit schizophrenic to me. 2. We "owe respect" to people whose first act in coming to America is a crime against us? LOL! I think not. Respect is not given, it is earned. People who jump to the head of the line ahead of folks who have been standing in the line a long time get no respect from me.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Yeah, they should be able to call 911 or whatever its equivalent is IN MEXICO and be treated like a citizen. And their children should be welcomed in the schools IN MEXICO. It is not the duty of Americans to pay for every blessed thing illegal aliens want for goodness sakes.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. well I certainly appreciate your views. and I do not consider them to be illogical or unreasonable
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Few Americans would agree with that view. As an indicator of the illegals "desire" to assimilate and be Americans, legally, there have been many estimates of their "love" in case of war. All of the views I have read in the past agree that in wartime, there would be a FLOOD OF WOULD BE AMERICANS GOING SOUTH OF THE BORDER FOR SAFETY. Indicator of Mexicans for one, showing loyalty to friends, was WW2, they declined to enter WW2 until Germany sent their oil tankers headed to America to the bottom. They then entered the war, did NOTHING, took our aid, so the open hand is their national pastime.
“Give me your tired, and your poor, "NOW SHOW ME YOUR STINKIN' PAPERS, JOSE, OR I'LL GIVE YOU AN ENEMA WITH A .38 SPECIAL. WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF THOSE IMMIGRANTS WHO OBEY OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS"?
Droppin' trou and making anchors must be running it a close second.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The legal way. There were no handouts, they made it on their own. In case of war and the beaners flood south, watch the very same Americans demand we respect their wishes to go "home" for safety.
"Non-citizens The Selective Service (and the draft) in the United States is not limited to citizens. Howard Stringer was drafted in 1965, six weeks after arriving from his native Britain.[82][83] Today, non-citizen males of appropriate age in the United States, who are permanent residents (holders of Green Cards), seasonal agricultural workers, refugees, parolees, asylees, and even illegal immigrants, are required to register with the Selective Service System.[84] Refusal to do so is grounds for denial of a future citizenship application." In addition, immigrants who seek to naturalize as citizens must, as part of the Oath of Citizenship, swear to the following: ... that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law;[85" I wonder how many of our illegal little friends have bothered to register??????? Such laws are for Americans, not freeloaders looking for a handout.
Of course. To argue for anything else is to strike down a nation's capability to orderly allow immigration to ebb and flow as needed. All else is anarchy and adds an unsustainable tax burden on an already over taxed people. As for the businesses who hire illegals, I wouldn't hire them to remove as much as a weed from my lawn. How would I know the business hired illegals? I'd profile by first asking the business owner if he hired illegals and second by listening to the language of the workforce. I only hire English speakers as communication is important to satisfying the customer (me).
Here in hills, the native trailer park, white trash, are not nice people because we have no tolerance for "outsiders". Therefore the beaners hustle thru the area, seldom lingering. They are smart enough to smell "bias" when they tarry too long. Hey, we dont like others, others dont like us, so we are even, just leave us alone, AND STAY THE HELL IN MEXICO.
We're bigoted, biased and could care less what others think or feel. The closest I've come to anything near a Mexican is watching Señor Wences do his act on the old Ed Sullivan show. Despite all the Diversity I've missed in my lifetime, I feel just peachy.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I'm probably not going to have time this session to address all of your points but I'd like to start by referring you to Luke 4:25-27 for consideration on your spiritual perspective: King James Reference Bible - The Book of Luke, Chapter 4 In addition to those scriptures which tell of Jesus explaining that two major prophets were sent to help and heal Gentiles during famine and affliction, Jesus explained that His own people were the priority of His ministery. The Gentiles who came to Him for help, like the Centurion and the woman who beseeched Him for crumbs from the Master's table, received compassion and healing miracles too but from a distance during that time. Can you see the correlation to America's historical efforts in trying to help and heal the conditions of others, even to the point of overlooking and undermining the best interests of its own citizens, and the situation now where America must focus on helping its own because it is stumbling under the weight of what you and those you are lobbying for expect it to bear? From Luke 4:23. And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
My point is that america is not for the americans according to how things are done. and anybody who tries to say these things in public is told to shut up and if they persist they're said to be racists. We're a nation that doesn't even know how to stand up for our own national interest. Don't blame me for that. Everybody here has been trying to stand up for our own national interest and you have been calling that racist. America has been virtually landmined by foreign and domestic enemies of our Constitutional system to be destroyed and some people don't even realize that's what they are doing. Stop working for them and calling for the criminal invaders who have wronged us to be rewarded with "amnesty" for that again. As I said before: Been there, done that, bad idea. I am willing to support your call for businesses to be restricted from hiring illegals and even from employing any guest workers whenever employment of Americans here is below 100%. I don't think anyone here wouldn't support your stand for enforcement against businesses that aid and abet illegal invaders. There is a workable alliance for you on that issue. Stop pushing the envelope for more bad government to favor your illegal compadres. Complaining about bad government favoring foreigners while calling for more bad government to favor foreigners isn't helping the problem of bad government at all. You asked me to say why I thought it was America's job to provide jobs for mexicans. James told me we didn't owe them (Mexicans) anything. I answered him and told him what we owe them is respect. Especially if they live here and fit in as workers and community members. They came. They took the jobs. The employers did favor them. I asked you to say something about NAFTA too. Please try to do that at your earliest convenience. Which Democrats there have tried to get such a law passed and which Republicans stopped it? How long have Republicans had that much influence there? The Governor before Brewer was a Democrat. "They came. They took the jobs. The employers did favor them." sounds like the equivalent of Israel's MO to "create facts on the ground" in defiance and violation of law and human rights that they believe should stay as they want because they say so. Illegal alien migrants do not have some "human right" to demand America adopt an Open Border policy for them. Your next to last sentence sounds very close to a globalist pitch for a New World Order agenda. The illegal are not the wronged party, we are, and we are not having a "policy dispute". They are criminal invaders and you are disputing any deportation of them as such. Military families here move often -- out of country too. How many parent illegals within the recruitment age bracket have tried to become citizens by joining our military? When you see them, tell them to call 1-800-USA-ARMY. There's a path to citizenship that's been available to them for years. We have no obligation to give them any path to become Americans but there it is anyway. Not expecting any thanks from them for it, just less bellyaching.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Excellent response. I have posted here numerous times that by "our" law, illegals of age must also register for any possible draft. Do they??? Of course not. For obvious reasons they desire the fruit this country offers, just do NOT expect a law abiding citizen in return.
I have not intended to project the image that I call somebody a racist for standing up for the american national interest. regarding the international trade treaties such as NAFTA - I think we should fashion a trade policy that favors our domestic economy. meaning, we should not have an overvalued currency that prevents us from exporting as much as we import. Trade can be profitable for a nation or not. we need to adjust trade policy so tat it is profitable from the point of view of our people. we should not be running massive trade deficits.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Fact is, red, that we tried this once under Reagan. It was the signal, not for a just for a flood of legalized residents, but for the deluge of illegals that we currently suffer from, and it came with the attendant cover that it provided for gangs, cartels, and all the just plain dangerous riff-raff that slid in with it. You'll get no purchase with that kind of argument here, that's for sure, and not in the nation at large which has come to know the meaning of the aphorism, "Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, I'm a nickel-plated jackass.
There is no long form.
if you want to be a stupid idiot, then I have no control over it. the facts are that employers today can hire illegal immigrants with no real penalty from the federal government. so it has never been tried. you are an idiot. and I am sick and tired of my dysfunctional fellow americans taking political views like that, spouting stupidity. I can say 100 times or 1,000 times that it is still legal to this day for employers to hire all the illegal immigrants they want. and an idiot like you will correct me and tell me that we tried amnesty in 1986. it doesn't work. in order to get 'it' to work you must combine amnesty with employer sanctions. we have never tried the employer sanctions part of the strategy. you are an idiot not to know this. especially after all the posts I put up telling you this.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I can say 100 times or 1,000 times that it is still legal to this day for employers to hire all the illegal immigrants they want. Please, let's keep our feet on the ground. You know as well as I do that you can be fined up to two grand for each illegal you hire - more if you have previous violations. We have a malfeasant federal government that WILL NOT DO ITS JOB because it seeks to create just the kind of swamp of lawbreaking that we face. The PTB WANT you to break the law, and illegals and many employers are willing to break the law. I'll take "It is still legal to this day," to mean, "It is OK to get away with murder," because murder's what is being committed on the working and tax paying people of this country. in order to get 'it' to work you must combine amnesty with employer sanctions I dunno. I think the whole country is in a real foul mood right now and isn't of a mind to combine anything with anything else. Employer sanctions will do fine all by themselves, thank you.
There is no long form.
As Dubya so eloquently stated:
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. That was one of the most revealing moments of that sordid administration and presidency.
There is no long form.
I shouldn't let my frustration cause me to be rude to you. we were told that we'd use amnesty in combination with employer sanctions to change things. we did amnesty and the amnesty part worked because those people did generally become citizens. but we did not do the employer sanctions part. I used to work for the largest stucco contractor in america. they would typically have about 7,000 employees. I wrote their software to manage their whole system including payroll and many other things. and so I had opportunity to speak to people running their systems. it was evident to me and to the people working there that a large portion of those 7,000 people were illegal immigrants. Even today I know people who hire illegal immigrants. they're put right into the payroll system. there is no fear of penalty at all. maybe the law does make it a technical violation to hire an illegal immigrant. but there is no actual penalty levied on the employer in almost all cases. It is very difficult to trigger penalties, the penalties are also very light. many employers ignore the fact that it is illegal because, as I said, there are no real penalties for hiring illegals.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I'd be glad if they implemented real employer sanctions. they don't and nobody even introduces it into congress for consideration. these same politicians who don't allow employer sanctions tell us that a huge number of troops and a border fence will stop the illegals. this is surreal. sanctions of employers who hire illegals is the only way to generally stop them from coming. and that is the one thing that we have actually not done.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Well, red, the laws are on the books as you must well know. We want to know: "Why do the fedgov and its agent who are sworn to uphold the law shirk their oaths and responsibilities?" For first offenders, there is a $250-$2,000 fine per illegal employee. For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee. For employers who have been convicted of hiring illegal immigrants more than twice, the fine can range from $3000-$10,000 per employee. If the employer demonstrates a pervasive pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants, he or she could face additional fines, and up to six months in jail. Additionally, under the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations (RICO) act, employers hiring illegal immigrants have been sued, resulting in large settlements. The lawfully documented workers of the Zirkle Fruit Company recently settled a class action lawsuit brought under RICO. The suit alleged that their employer knowingly hired undocumented workers, driving down their wages. http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/penalties-for-employers-hiring-illegal-immigrants.html There is no long form.
it is a technical violation of the law for employers to hire illegals. and the law may allow for penalties too. but the law also says that if the employer photo-copies the documents and the documents look real, then the employer is not punished for hiring that person. The law allows employers to conveniently not check to see if a person is legal or not. If the law required employers to check before hiring, and if the government actually reviews employees getting paychecks to see if they're legal or not and then gives out penalties to the employer, then we would have laws that would actually punish employers for hiring illegals. we don't have that now.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I think Cheney should have taken Dumbya hunting.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It is a technical violation for me to flip the IRS off at the end of the quarter.
There is no long form.
I have posted here numerous times that by "our" law, illegals of age must also register for any possible draft. Do they??? Of course not. For obvious reasons they desire the fruit this country offers, just do NOT expect a law abiding citizen in return. Thanks, Cyni. Good to see you onboard. :)
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Thanks for your NAFTA address but it says nothing about US businesses and jobs that moved to Mexico, nor Mexico's oil rich and not so poor economy that also has a booming tourist industry -- all of which point to the illegals trying to attack us as invaders, living off our doles while doing it and "working under the table" too. Let's recap where we are in these negotiations: I have compromised on the Repub/guest worker v. Dem/citizenship proposals by throwing out both of them. You have been shown a path to citizenship for the illegals by joining our Military that has been available to them for years. You have been offered a working alliance against the employers who hire illegals and guest workers. What have you compromised? Nothing and you persist in claiming that amnesty has to be "combined with" enforcement against employers. No it doesn't have to be combined. Amnesty is not necessary at all. You have to realize that, while it wasn't nearly enough, a Republican administration did move against the illegal-hire business, Agriprocessors, to shut it down but the Democrat at the White House now is moving against Arizona rather than any employers of illegals. So you should quit trying to make this out as mostly a "Republican" problem and looking like you're blinkered.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
you may not like my responses. but I did address your concern that businesses move to foreign countries by saying that the US dollar was systematically over-valued. an over-valued currency hurts badly our domestic economy. The US government has pursued a purposeful policy of setting the value of the US dollar artificially strong in exchange rates to other currencies. this has a long-term corrosive effect on our economy and people. I said very clearly that I think our trade policies should be changed up so that we as a people benefit from trade, so that we export as much as we import.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
the history on illegal immigrants is that in 1986 when immigration reform was under consideration in Washington US Senate leaders who were Republican decided that no legislation could be voted on if that legislation forced employers to confirm if a prospective employee was legal or not or if that legislation provided for punishment to employers for hiring illegals. I read it in the Wall Street Journal at the time. Ronald Reagan himself confirmed this in a speech broadcast on tv that I saw. The House of Representatives that year was dominated by democrats. They wanted to penalize employers for hiring illegals and force them to hire legals only. Ronald Reagan was with the House on that point. but by this time Reagan was in his 'senile' stage. People around him could influence him easily. He signed the legislation knowing full well that it would let huge numbers of illegals in the country. and he said so on national tv. I live in arizona. This is a state dominated by republicans. they refuse to pass legislation to penalize employers for hiring illegals. these are facts. forgive me if I put blame where blame belongs. There's an article in the AZ Republic today speaking about how easy it is for illegals to function in our economy. The idea that we are trying to keep them out is a complete myth. I'll post that article in a few minutes. I'm not trying to be disagreeable with you. I don't like Republicans. Republicans are for guest workers. Republicans brought us the H1-b & L-1 visa programs. I strongly dislike all of these things. don't make me laugh by saying republicans moved against businesses that hire illegals. It is an insult to me and you just don't realize it. Maybe if you lived in arizona and worked in the niches I've worked in, then maybe you'd agree with me. the one segment of our economy where most americans do actually think mexican migrants should be able to work is in the agriculture sector. so it figures that the republicans would crack down on that sector. but let me explain this to you. There are american born american citizens working in agriculture and wishing like hell that the illegals were not allowed to compete with them for their jobs which hardly pay anything. and if their wages were doubled for picking the crops it would have a negligible impact on food prices.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
are you lost in the 2-party paradigm or what??? the Republicans of Arizona have not moved against employers for hiring illegals. they've actually taken no significant actions other than to engage in emotional terrorism by threatening the existence of the illegals without actually doing anything to hardly any of them. The 2 parties function together towards common goals.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Me to you at Post #110 Thanks for your NAFTA address but it says nothing about US businesses and jobs that moved to Mexico, nor Mexico's oil rich and not so poor economy that also has a booming tourist industry -- all of which point to the illegals trying to attack us as invaders, living off our doles while doing it and "working under the table" too. NAFTA in general isn't what I asked you to say something about but the issues quoted above -- and that's not even getting into businesses from other countries that have boosted Mexico's economy and jobs market by moving there -- like Asian textiles, for instance. Your evasion implies that, no matter how impoverished America has become and Mexico enriched by NAFTA, you're committed to pushing the meme that it's somehow America's reponsibility to provide Mexicans with jobs and better living conditions here. It isn't.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
That's funny, considering your prior post at # 112 and all the others where you've pointed to Republicans as the problem but never Democrats. If you want to claim now that, "The 2 parties function together towards common goals," I can agree with that, so what's your point about Republicans again? You want them to work towards a common goal of another amnesty for illegals and they want Democrats to work towards a common goal of documented guest workers instead without rewarding the illegal invaders with citizenship again for breaking our laws and undermining our economy? Persuades me that Democrats are on the wrong side of this issue. I've done some research on Arizona's political demographics and it doesn't seem so heavily dominated by Republicans as you suggest. Your last Governor was a Democrat and didn't move against any employers hiring illegals. Neither has Dem. Obama but Rep. GWBush did move against Agriprocessors, whether you want to aknowledge that fact or not. I'm no Bush fan and it wasn't enough but it was more than your Democrats have done to penalize employers of illegals, as you claim to want. Your current Attorney General is a Democrat and 2 out of 5 Corporation Commissioners are Democrats. Perhaps the reason employers of illegals aren't being moved against there is because of the Democrat Attorney General and not the Republicans. Ever think of that?
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
the people who have been active on immigration policy in arizona have been republicans. we used to be a strong republican state, but with all the mexicans increasing their population we are becoming a democrat state. but currently the legislature and governor are both republican. about 2 years ago the state's republicans were excited over a guest worker program. They had received the federal government's permission to have a guest worker program just for our state. they were going to turn illegals into guest workers and they thought it was great. those are the same republicans behind SB1070. they are not our friends. I don't see democrats embracing the solutions I've advocated and that were also advocated by Ronald Reagan. I see the democrats as just sitting back and letting the republicans do evil things on immigration, but they never seem to oppose the republicans in a way that will win. Obama says he rejects employer sanctions, that means he's all pro-illegal immigrant. that is the way the 2 parties are. One may lead on a particular issue, but the other follows. I think the democrats will be just dysfunctional enough on the illegal immigrant issue to let the republicans get their permanent stream of guest workers that they want so badly.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Here's a video you might be interested in that was posted recently at whatreallyhappened.com. For some reason it won't post here as a video, so you'll have to go to the YouTube site or the whatreallyhappened.com page for Aug. 14 to see it: PERM Fake Job Ads defraud Americans to secure green cards for H-1b workers. programmersguild | June 16, 2007 Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
If the Mexicans were entering the nation and becoming small government libertarians, the elite would build a wall, complete with a moat.
The video I couldn't post here at #117 can be viewed at Horse's Aug 14 thread, 4um Title: PERM Fake Job Ads defraud Americans to secure green cards
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#2. To: Dakmar (#1)
#3. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#2)
#4. To: Red Jones (#0)
#5. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#2)
There's at least 50 Million illegals in the United States.
#6. To: Red Jones (#0)
1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent
#7. To: mirage (#5)
#8. To: Flintlock (#6)
bitching
#9. To: Red Jones (#7)
(Edited)
#10. To: Red Jones (#8)
I wasn't complaining
#11. To: Flintlock (#6)
#12. To: Flintlock (#10)
#13. To: Red Jones (#11)
(Edited)
where I live if they kicked out all the illegals, then our tax base would be negatively affected. as you know our economy is in such bad shape that it is not responsible to damage the tax base.
#14. To: Red Jones (#12)
(Edited)
These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home.
#15. To: Red Jones (#12)
These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home.
#16. To: GreyLmist (#13)
Are you joking?
#17. To: GreyLmist (#14)
They're not dictators here.
#18. To: mirage (#15)
#19. To: mirage (#15)
Cesar Chavez
#20. To: Red Jones (#18)
(Edited)
#21. To: mirage (#20)
#22. To: Red Jones (#21)
(Edited)
#23. To: SonOfLiberty (#22)
Calling people "idiot" and "stupid" to try and bolster your point doesn't speak well of your debating skills.
#24. To: Red Jones (#23)
(Edited)
#25. To: Red Jones (#21)
Mexican americans and Cesar Chavez are exactly like me.
#26. To: SonOfLiberty (#24)
#27. To: Red Jones (#17)
What I'm telling you is that the hard-line on illegals where we say 'kick them all out' is extremely divisive and makes any solution to illegal immigrant problem impossible.
#28. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#25)
#29. To: Red Jones (#26)
#30. To: GreyLmist (#27)
That is the solution which should penalize them as well with never being able to apply for citizenship here.
#31. To: Red Jones (#30)
I would rather compromise and let the existing illegals stay and then stop all new illegals as well as not have guest workers. The democrats will go along with that solution.
I am becoming convinced that one of the reasons we can't find a solution is because of intractable opinions motivated by racism.
. It is today's republicans who will not allow that solution.
#32. To: SonOfLiberty (#29)
I honestly don't care about Chavez or your debate about him with mirage. What I'm telling you is that running around screaming "mental illness!" "stupid!" and "idiot!" during a discussion will get you put on the bozo-filter by most people here in short order.
#33. To: Red Jones (#32)
(Edited)
#34. To: Red Jones (#16)
(Edited)
#35. To: SonOfLiberty (#33)
#36. To: Red Jones (#35)
#37. To: GreyLmist (#34)
#38. To: Red Jones (#30)
(Edited)
#39. To: Red Jones (#37)
(Edited)
if you want to nurture the tax base, then you should nurture people who produce in the economy. the illegal immigrants that are here are producers. If you were to deport them, then yes it would shock our economy and we would immediately have a smaller economy. We would be able to move american workers into those jobs. but it would take time to recover in terms of the economy's size. in the meantime the local governments would collect less tax revenue. that would be extremely negative for our people. an economy should be nurtured for the sake of prosperity for the people. not deported.
#40. To: SonOfLiberty (#36)
Later gator.
#41. To: GreyLmist (#38)
There was already a deal made years ago to give illegals a path to citizenship. That is what encouraged them to keep coming, far more than the rogue employers you point to
#42. To: GreyLmist (#38)
We don't have to compromise and give them citizenship in order to stop all new illegals and have no guest workers. That's a false argument.
#43. To: Red Jones (#21)
You've argued that mexican-americans want to see illegal immigrants sent back to their home countries and you've argued that Cesar Chavez felt this way.
#44. To: mirage (#43)
#45. To: Red Jones (#21)
Mirage: Some Mexican-Americans are Minutemen. Some are Border Patrol agents.
#46. To: Red Jones, mirage (#44)
On a few occasions, concerns that undocumented migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of undocumented immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and US Senator Walter Mondale.[6] In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report undocumented immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[7][8][9][10][11]
#47. To: Red Jones (#44)
we have actual protests in arizona in favor of the illegals. they're almost all mexicans & mexican americans protesting.
#48. To: SonOfLiberty, Red Jones (#46)
#49. To: mirage (#45)
#50. To: mirage (#47)
Would you care to tell me I never did any of that?
#51. To: Red Jones (#12)
These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home. These ethnic mexicans don't want new illegals coming. but they will not allow the illegal mexicans to be sent back.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#52. To: mirage (#48)
#53. To: Red Jones (#26)
Saying that Washington was loyal to the english king during that war is exactly the same as saying that Cesar Chavez would kick out the existing illegals in our country.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#54. To: Red Jones (#37)
We don't have any prominent politicians in our whole country who publicly advocate what Ronald Reagan advocated - that we accept the illegals and close the door.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#55. To: Red Jones (#37)
We're far better off at asking the illegals to be citizens and let them be free and equal and then shutting the door.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#56. To: James Deffenbach (#51)
Are you seriously suggesting that the United States CANNOT enforce its immigration laws because of what some yahoos from another country think about it?
#57. To: GreyLmist (#14)
Red Jones: These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#58. To: Red Jones (#44)
You are insane if you think that the ethnic mexican community wants to send them home. they do not, in overwhelming numbers. You live in a dream-world if you think otherwise.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#59. To: James Deffenbach (#53)
Who gives a rat's ass what he would, or wouldn't, do? The fact is that the ILLEGALS are in America ILLEGALLY--is there some part of that that you just can't comprehend?
#60. To: Red Jones (#52)
I said that the ethnic mexicans were overwhelmingly behind the illegals who are already here and in the community.
#61. To: Red Jones (#59)
I think we've explored our differences on this issue adequately. I sincerely hope that somebody might see my point of view as I have tried hard to deliver it.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#62. To: X-15 (#57)
Who do you think the congresscritters listen to: the white majority or the mexicons when they bitch and scream like spoiled brats??
#63. To: Red Jones (#59)
those roots are so deep in our community in that these people hold jobs, pay bills and have children who think that they are Americans that it would be negative for our community to kick them out.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#64. To: Red Jones (#62)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#65. To: Red Jones (#50)
have fun.
#66. To: X-15 (#64)
Read my post again
#67. To: Red Jones (#62)
they can be our allies on this issue, but we must make a deal, the existing illegals stay and we shut off new arrivals. they'll agree to that.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#68. To: Red Jones (#66)
I'm not trying to offend you...you've been indoctrinated to believe in democracy, just as we all have been.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#69. To: James Deffenbach (#61)
America OWES something
#70. To: Red Jones (#62)
we should listen to what the mexicans want if we had any brains at all.
#71. To: Red Jones (#69)
The governments of our states and our national government do owe the existing illegal immigrants something. they have been in our communities and working jobs and existing as people here. you and I don't owe them anything special. but government owes them respect for the fact that they live here,...
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#72. To: Red Jones (#69)
"...the agenda of government should be to serve the people who live here."
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#73. To: Red Jones (#52)
you have no real facts relating to our discussion. just obfuscation and unrelated claims?
When the facts are against you, argue the law.
When everything is against you, pound the table.Here's the ironic part: Despite the fact that Chávez is these days revered among Mexican-American activists, the labor leader in his day was no more tolerant of illegal immigration than the Arizona Minutemen are now. Worried that the hiring of illegal immigrants drove down wages, Chávez – according to numerous historical accounts – instructed union members to call the Immigration and Naturalization Service to report the presence of illegal immigrants in the fields and demand that the agency deport them. UFW officials were even known to picket INS offices to demand a crackdown on illegal immigrants.
#74. To: X-15 (#57)
We've been sold out since 1965 on the immigration issue
#75. To: Red Jones (#0)
________________________________
#76. To: Red Jones (#41)
(Edited)
I do object to the term 'rogue employer'. because in the construction industry here in phoenix it is completely normal that illegal immigrants be hired to do the work.
#77. To: GreyLmist (#76)
This is America for Americans.
#78. To: buckeroo (#70)
to be of any further use to us
#79. To: James Deffenbach (#71)
The government owes the illegal aliens "respect" for invading America? That's a good one
#80. To: mirage (#73)
#81. To: Red Jones (#80)
#82. To: Red Jones (#77)
1. I sincerely hope that I am among the men who are tasked to fight against the invaders.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#83. To: Red Jones (#79)
If they have an emergency situation they should be able to call '911' and be treated like citizens. Their children should be welcomed in the schools.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#84. To: James Deffenbach (#83)
#85. To: Red Jones, Jethro tull, James Deffenbacj, randge, All (#79)
we have an obligation to at least respect their presence.
#86. To: Cynicom, 4 (#85)
(Edited)
Your huddled masses yearning to be free…
these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
#87. To: Cynicom (#85)
the open hand is their national pastime.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#88. To: Jethro Tull (#86)
“Give me your tired, and your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to be free… these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
#89. To: James Deffenbach, Jethjro tull, all (#87)
#90. To: Cynicom, 4 (#88)
The legal way.
#91. To: Jethro Tull (#90)
#92. To: Cynicom (#91)
#93. To: All (#92)
#94. To: Red Jones (#77)
(Edited)
#95. To: Red Jones (#77)
we have lots of common practices that favor foreign born people in jobs. An economist did a study a few years ago and found that over a period of about 2 years he studied 91% of all new jobs in america went to foreign born people. I witnessed an employer in the construction industry decide not to even try to hire any americans for their work. I heard a part- owner of a trades contractor say that it was a waste of time, in justification of his decision to advertise for job openings in a spanish language radio station and hire 100% foreigners who are likely illegal. this happens every day. and it is OK according to the law.
You asked me very sincerely to comment as to why arizona does not pass a law to punish the employers for this behavior. Please don't hold me responsible for the Arizona republicans. they don't work for me. I could just as easily say that we should boycott people from Illinois or otherwise hate them because Obama came from Illinois. and the Obama government pursues policies of war and torture which are abhorrent, therefore we should persecute Illinois. Is it really a person in Illinois' fault if the washington government does evil things. Its not my fault and not your fault either that the washington government does evil things.
Even though we were wronged by the institutions that rule our country and we feel a very deep grievance over that, we should still remember that we have an obligation to do the right thing. And we shouldn't want wrong done to these illegal immigrants who do live here. I know that some of you have told me you don't care about their children born here. I respect your feelings. But I'm not going to go tell some 8-year old kid that his life must be turned upside down because his mommy & daddy were on the wrong side of a policy dispute. and I won't say it is a just thing if my government does that. a little kid growing up in our community is a high priority. Our world should be ordered so that the kid has a good place to live. injustice that reigns down on us does not remove this simple obligation that we have.
#96. To: GreyLmist (#95)
(Edited)
#97. To: GreyLmist (#95)
Everybody here has been trying to stand up for our own national interest and you have been calling that racist.
#98. To: Red Jones (#79)
I would get every single illegal immigrant sat down with a government agent in a room and tell them flat to their face that they have a choice. either they can sign a paper agreeing to become a US citizen within 'x' years and do all the things they must to become a US citizen, such as speak english, and renounce their other citizenship, or else they can go home - immediately.
#99. To: randge (#98)
Fact is, red, that we tried this once under Reagan.
#100. To: Red Jones (#99)
(Edited)
#101. To: randge (#98)
"Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, I'm a nickel-plated jackass."
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#102. To: James Deffenbach (#101)
#103. To: randge (#100)
Please, let's keep our feet on the ground. You know as well as I do that you can be fined up to two grand for each illegal you hire
#104. To: randge (#100)
Employer sanctions will do fine all by themselves, thank you.
#105. To: Red Jones (#103)
Under federal law, it is illegal for any employer to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work in the United States. There are criminal and civil penalties associated with this conduct.
#106. To: randge (#105)
#107. To: randge (#102)
That was one of the most revealing moments of that sordid administration and presidency.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#108. To: Red Jones (#106)
it is a technical violation of the law for employers to hire illegals
#109. To: Cynicom (#96)
Excellent response.
#110. To: Red Jones (#97)
(Edited)
regarding the international trade treaties such as NAFTA - I think we should fashion a trade policy that favors our domestic economy. meaning, we should not have an overvalued currency that prevents us from exporting as much as we import. Trade can be profitable for a nation or not. we need to adjust trade policy so tat it is profitable from the point of view of our people. we should not be running massive trade deficits.
#111. To: GreyLmist (#110)
but it says nothing about US businesses and jobs that moved to Mexico
#112. To: GreyLmist (#110)
a Republican administration did move against the illegal-hire business, Agriprocessors, to shut it down but the Democrat at the White House now is moving against Arizona rather than any employers of illegals. So you should quit trying to make this out as mostly a "Republican" problem and looking like you're blinkered.
#113. To: GreyLmist (#110)
but the Democrat at the White House now is moving against Arizona rather than any employers of illegals.
#114. To: Red Jones (#111)
Me to you at Post #76: say something about why you think it's America's job to provide Mexicans with jobs and better living conditions, even though so many of our businesses have impoverished this country by moving to Mexico via NAFTA to do that for them and still Mexico feigns being too poor and/or deranged to provide for its own.
#115. To: Red Jones (#113)
are you lost in the 2-party paradigm or what???
#116. To: GreyLmist (#115)
#117. To: Red Jones (#116)
(Edited)
http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=related
#118. To: Red Jones (#116)
the people who have been active on immigration policy in arizona have been republicans. we used to be a strong republican state, but with all the mexicans increasing their population we are becoming a democrat state.
#119. To: Red Jones, Horse, All (#116)
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