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Title: Report: 1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent
Source:
East Valley Tribune
URL Source: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/ar ... 84-11df-9c10-001cc4c002e0.html
Published: Aug 11, 2010
Author: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
Post Date: 2010-08-11 21:07:27 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 1728
Comments: 119
Report: 1 in 15 kids in U.S. has illegal immigrant parent Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:52 pm | Updated: 5:47 pm, Wed Aug 11, 2010. Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services | 2 comments About one out of every 15 children in the United States was born to a family where at least one parent is in this country illegally, according to a new report Wednesday. And four out of five of those 5.1 million children -- including 340,000 born in just 2008 -- are citizens because they were born in the United States, the Pew Hispanic Center concluded. That, according to some, makes them ``anchor babies'' for their illegal parents. The figures, which the organization calculated based on 2009 U.S. Census Bureau estimates, are the best estimates to date of the scope of the issue which has resulted in calls to amend the U.S. Constitution to deny automatic citizenship to children solely by virtue of their birth within this country. That percentage of children of illegal immigrant may be increasing. The overall figure is about 6.8 percent of all children 17 and younger who have at least one illegal immigrant parent. But Pew Hispanic figures that 7.9 percent of all births during 2008 -- that 340,000 figure -- were offspring of "unauthorized'' immigrants. Researchers peg the number of illegal immigrants in the United States at something slightly in excess of 4 percent of the total population. "But because they are relatively young and have high birth rates, their children make up a much larger share of the newborn population and the child population in this country,'' the report states. The report does not say how many of those 5.1 million children of illegal immigrants are in Arizona. But Jeff Passel, the senior demographer at Pew Hispanic Center, pointed to an earlier study which concluded that Arizona has about 4.2 percent of the total illegal immigrants in the entire country. Using that as a rough estimate, that translates to more than 214,000 children from birth through age 17 in the state where at least one parent is not here legally. And, based on the Pew figures nationwide, about 170,000 of these would be considered "anchor babies'' born in this country. That also tracks with estimates in previous Pew reports which show that up to 110,000 children in Arizona public schools were born in this country into families where one or both parents are undocumented, with possibly 65,000 more school children who are themselves illegal immigrants. The numbers will figure in the debate over the future of the 14th Amendment. It states that children born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of both this country and the state where they reside. Courts have interpreted that to entitle citizenship to those born in the United States regardless of whether one or both parents had no legal right to be here. Some foes, including Sen. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, argue those rulings are flawed. He noted that the amendment makes its provisions conditional on the children being "subject to the jurisdiction'' of this country. Pearce said courts, citing that language, concluded for years that did not entitle Native Americans to citizenship. "There's no doubt where they were born,'' he said. It was only after Congress specifically altered the law regarding citizenship for Indians that the situation changed. Pearce is weighing whether to have Arizona bring a new challenge to those court rulings. That would take the form of a state law denying birth certificates to children born in Arizona unless they could show at least one parent is in this country legally. That likely would provoke a lawsuit. But Pearce said a simpler course would be to have the issue handled at the federal level. U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., is pushing to amend the Constitution to spell out that mere birth within U.S. borders does not entitle someone to citizenship. That process, though, is cumbersome, requiring either a constitutional convention or ratification of any change approved by two-thirds of the U.S. House and Senate by three-fourths of all state legislatures. Pearce, however, said that's not necessary. "Congress could fix it tomorrow,'' he said. "All it needs is clarification.'' He pointed out that the 14th Amendment, which also deals with issues of voting rights and who can hold office, also spells out that Congress "shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.'' "So they put it in there in case there was some abuse, or something misunderstood,'' Pearce said. Applicable language of 14th Amendment All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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#24. To: Red Jones (#23)
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It has nothing to do with scoring points. It has to do with a lack of effective debating techniques. Falling back on "you're stupid, you're an idiot, you're a racist" (and now, what, mental illness? That's a classic Soviet debate tactic, did you know that?) is base ad hominem and invalidates your points, if you have any, immediately through association. Those very words are almost always used by the far left in "debates" concerning illegal immigration and how to deal with it, and it shows a general tone deafness to any viewpoint but their own. It's fine to try to express viewpoints about Chavez or disagree with somebody's take on him. Opinions differ, especially in regards to union labor activists, but that opinions differ doesn't make somebody stupid, or an idiot, or especially a racist. Those cards are played out now, especially here and on most other non-left forums. They simply do not work, and further, they indicate to the person that you're debating that you're out of facts and short on reason in the debate. Do as you will, I'm trying to help you retain credibility, but you can choose any path of course.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
No. You're worse.
Higher rates of SGA but greater chances of survival within birth weight-for-gestation groups and lower energy expenditure during puberty in African American than non-Hispanic white girls support the possibility that African American girls are born with a lower energy expenditure than non-Hispanic white girls.
up is down. down is up. 2+2=5. are there any other statements you wish me to make in order to respect somebody's sensibilities? insanity is insanity. when people say incredibly ridiculous things like that Cesar Chavez would kick out the illegals, then we should challenge them for this and tell them how stupid (and crazy) it is. Cesar Chavez was a person. But today his symbol is very important to the mexican-american population and to the illegals who came here which is a significant component of the mexican community here. They stick together out of ethnic identification. you cannot divide them is what I've tried to explain to you. It is like I said, George Washington was not loyal to the English king during the Revolution. Saying that Washington was loyal to the english king during that war is exactly the same as saying that Cesar Chavez would kick out the existing illegals in our country. We have a Cesar Chavez high school and a Cesar Chavez park near where I live. Saying what mirage said about Cesar Chavez is like saying that Martin Luther King opposed civil rights in the 1960's. the man is a nut. You say that I should politely ignore mirage's insanity on an important issue because mirage lives apparently in new york city and is oblivious to our realities in the southwest. it is the same as saying that 2+2=5. just because cesar chavez opposed new illegals coming here does not mean that he would kick the existing illegals out. we've known for decades that the mexican-americans are more likely than white americans to want to stop new illegals from coming here. But the illegals that come are mostly mexican. and they are attacked for being mexicans. the existing mexican-americans naturally rally around them to defend them. Cesar Chavez was like that. He was a mexican-american himself. I've tried to explain that you are not going to stop the flow of new illegals and/or new guest workers unless you respect the existing illegals who have come here and earned a place in our society through their daily work. If you insist on disrespecting these people out of hatred caused by whatever source, then you are causing our country to have to put up with new people coming - forever. next, mirage will say that Cesar Chavez really favored guest workers. Republicans favor guest workers. Cesar Chavez did not. Republicans will not allow a solution to our immigration mess unless that solution includes guest workers.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
No it doesn't make any solution to the illegal alien migrant problem impossible. That is the solution which should penalize them as well with never being able to apply for citizenship here.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
so you'd rather just bury your head in bigotry and accept an endless stream of guest workers that the republicans want in order to destroy our labor market for white Americans? You'd rather do that than respect people of another ethnic group? People on this web site are saying that people who grew up here in America and speak english as a first language should be deported, people who think in their minds that they are American, people who've never even been to these countries that you want them deported to. and they'd rather stick with this bigotry even though it means we can't find a solution and in the end our inability to find a solution empowers those politicians who want guest workers. If we can't treat people decently and try to provide justice for people's situations in life, then why are we so arrogant to think that such justice will be provided to us? and if you can't see the injustice of deporting somebody who has a place here and not there, then you're hopeless. the end result is that you want to divide our country up into factions and ruin us, for what? For guest workers and employer sensibilities?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I honestly don't care about Chavez or your debate about him with mirage. What I'm telling you is that running around screaming "mental illness!" "stupid!" and "idiot!" during a discussion will get you put on the bozo-filter by most people here in short order. So you can choose to use your voice to express your viewpoint and have people listen, or you can sneer, call names, and call people mentally ill for not seeing your delivered wisdom, and soon find yourself talking to...yourself. Just saying. Do as you will.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
that is the kind of a political view that makes a solution impossible. and it enables the republicans who want guest workers. Some republicans want to turn the existing illegals into guest workers and then bring in more guest workers. Some republicans want to kick the illegals out, bar them from ever coming back and also bring in new guest workers. Some democrats will not tolerate the existing illegals being kicked out. Some democrats will not tolerate guest workers. and so we as a people cannot even bring about a situation where employers are penalized for hiring illegals - even though it is widely stated on all sides that we should stop the flow of new illegals. a sad pitiful situation. I would rather compromise and let the existing illegals stay and then stop all new illegals as well as not have guest workers. The democrats will go along with that solution. That solution was proposed by Ronald Reagan. It is today's republicans who will not allow that solution. I am becoming convinced that one of the reasons we can't find a solution is because of intractable opinions motivated by racism. Many Americans are uncomfortable with the idea that all of our workers will be free and able to quit their employers. They want kept people for the employers. They want semi-slaves. It is no different from 300 years ago. Many people where I live speak a foreign language. I am not happy over this. It did not used to be that way. We are being divided up because of these bigotries. Our laws were arranged to facilitate that they come. We can't change that mistake retro-actively. We can only change it for the future.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Ah, I see, so you're all for adding 20+ million new voters to the Democrats roll. Well isn't that just dandy? Why not have them go through the same process every legal immigrant has gone through? We can't why? Because they broke the law, so they're immune from any other requirements? Again, dandy. Of course you're convinced of that. This is the talking point put forward by the progressives. If you don't agree to anything they dictate, then you're a racist. That's the line. Um, hate to point it out, but the House and Senate both are fully controlled by Democrats, and there's a Democrat in the White House. It's not the Republicans doing it guy. You need to get an update on your talking points.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
I can certainly appreciate that. but OTOH when I use these words 'insane', 'mental illness', 'stupid', I am discussing. Those words have meanings. if you follow the discussion we're having mirage implied that Cesar Chavez wanted to kick out illegal immigrants from mexico who have been here for 20 years. It is exactly the same as saying that up is down. Mirage doesn't know anything about the mexican-american community and cesar chavez. He's completely insane on that point. I don't see how we can have a discussion when every time someone interjects something that stupid we're not allowed to challenge them with plain words that speak the truth.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Not knowing something, or disagreeing about the facts, doesn't make somebody insane. You're "allowed" to say anything you want. I'm just telling you, that falling back on standard leftist sneering insults will be the most effective way to silence yourself that you can find. There's nothing more really to say about it from my point. Cheers.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
So, what you're trying to tell me in your first two paragraphs is that if the illegal alien migrant workforce was pushed out of the country, your area's taxbase would not recover by employment of Americans instead because the businesses there would discriminate against them and import guest workers from Spanish language sources? Which businesses there should be investigated for that discriminatory practice? If the schools have to close down from deportation of illegals, good, imo. Then students could be homeschooled online or alternative schooled, likely much better overall and more efficiently. Arizona could save lots of money that's being wasted on the current dinosaur system and so could the Federal government. Many teachers and their subdivisions and their union key people and such would just have to...what's the word?...retrain for other careers like other Americans have been told to do. As for the police and fire department situation you mentioned, it's likewise here. I got stopped at one of the periodic Gestapo checkpoints they set up within the last year or so and the policeman introduced himself, then said he was from the next county over. I was in a hurry and didn't feel like chatting so I didn't ask him if he was lost, like I should have for being out of his jurisdiction. Since then, there's been some merger so maybe he was...in- training for that or something.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Martin Luther King was opposed to the civil rights laws of 1964 and 1965. George Washington fought for the King of England in our revolution. You're an idiot if you believe those statements. insane is a reasonable description of people who believe those statements. I'm not going to sacrifice on our pursuit of the truth for an insane person's sensibilities that they don't like having their feelings hurt when I speak the simple truth about them. e plurubus unim. spelled it wrong no doubt. but what it means is that we have to work hard as a people to be one people, because we come from different roots. we used to do that. and we were good at it. we should not be divided. how does it relate? We better accept the existing illegals or we will not be able to stop new guest workers or new illegals from coming here. You're not going to divide the ethnic mexicans among us up and get them to be against each other. they will unite. they're willing to unite as americans if we respect them, but if you push them and disrespect some of them, then they will unite as mexicans and at least in the southwest we whites will be the minority and we will be persecuted.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I said I was through. Not going to belabor the point that you refuse to grasp. Your fate is in your own hands kid. Later gator.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
if you want to nurture the tax base, then you should nurture people who produce in the economy. the illegal immigrants that are here are producers. If you were to deport them, then yes it would shock our economy and we would immediately have a smaller economy. We would be able to move american workers into those jobs. but it would take time to recover in terms of the economy's size. in the meantime the local governments would collect less tax revenue. that would be extremely negative for our people. an economy should be nurtured for the sake of prosperity for the people. not deported. I've told you that the reality here in Arizona is that many employers make no effort to hire americans at all. they do not advertise for people in english language sources, they prefer spanish language sources and use practices that result not only in systematic persecution against non-hispanic people, but hire an awful lot of illegal immigrants. this situation is ubiquitous in my state. I would like to stop this situation and I feel like I get no help at all from my fellow Americans on it. Some people fantasize that SB1070 stops employers from behaving this way. That is complete fantasy, I wish that my fellow americans would live inside the world of reality. We don't have any prominent politicians in our whole country who publicly advocate what Ronald Reagan advocated - that we accept the illegals and close the door. We have never even tried to implement that solution that he favored. I wish we would do that. and I warn you over and over again that we will not be able to kick the existing illegals out and still keep democrat support for the reform. It is a choice between accepting a permanent stream of new guest workers or accepting the existing illegals. We're far better off at asking the illegals to be citizens and let them be free and equal and then shutting the door.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
This has nothing to do with racism. This is where I could use your charged medical-lingo or other terms like "obtuse" for your incessant refusal to comprehend that fact but won't cuz I'm trying to be civil. We aren't griping about legal citizens here who are of Mexican/Hispanic origin. That the illegals happen to be largely of that nationality/ethnicity isn't our doing and has about nothing to do with our not wanting millions upon millions more of them suddenly on our citizenship rolls, other than that would put them way over the limit as compared to other applicants. There was already a deal made years ago to give illegals a path to citizenship. That is what encouraged them to keep coming, far more than the rogue employers you point to, and things only got worse and worse in this country because of it. Been there, done that, bad idea. How have you failed to understand that? How many are not working and are being paid by state subsidies to do nothing constructive while they try to wait around for another mass "amnesty" to make them citizens? How many don't really even want to be citizens because then they'd have to deal with all the red tape and taxation and other rigamarole that we do to find and keep a job? We don't have to compromise and give them citizenship in order to stop all new illegals and have no guest workers. That's a false argument. You claim Republicans want guest workers. Looks to me and others like Democrats really want more Democrat voters. Tomato, tomahto. Let's call the whole guest worker v. citizenship thing off. O-U-T, out all ya'all go right now and don't come around here no more! Guest workers, too -- get gone and stay gone!Employers -- expect to be shut down, charged, fined, and jailed for hiring any of them. Whatdya say we draft a bill that basically says that in legalese and fax it to Congress so they don't have to work so hard to get it to their floors for a vote? If they vote no, we can send it back to them. Election time is coming up. They might even be more in favor of it now than you'd care to imagine.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
I've told you that the reality here in Arizona is that many employers make no effort to hire americans at all. they do not advertise for people in english language sources, they prefer spanish language sources and use practices that result not only in systematic persecution against non-hispanic people, but hire an awful lot of illegal immigrants. this situation is ubiquitous in my state. I would like to stop this situation and I feel like I get no help at all from my fellow Americans on it. I think what you need more help on is the math. Taxpaying American workers in all jobs that should be available by the deportation of illegals should increase your taxbase, not decrease it. They'd have more money for sales taxes on purchases they couldn't afford if unemployed. The community would be smaller but so would the expenses for it. You seem genuinely concerned for the effects on illegals, much more so than the burdensome effects on your fellow Americans under the current conditions, but why isn't your state doing something to at least raise taxes on those businesses that are consuming your resources there to discriminate against Arizonans?
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
well thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. We just disagree on that though.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
The fact that the employers were allowed to hire the illegals with no penalty is what caused them to keep coming. because there was opportunity here expressly for them. and I do object to the term 'rogue employer'. because in the construction industry here in phoenix it is completely normal that illegal immigrants be hired to do the work. and I am going to keep repeating it - there are no real penalties to employers even today for hiring illegals. they do it every day. every employer knows, if you e-verify then you are trying to screen out illegals. If you do not, then you are hiring illegals. I know a scottish fellow who is an illegal immigrant. His parents live here, he's 35. he just flew in from canada a few months ago to try to look for a job and a life. He doesn't care if he's illegal or not. Most employers don't either.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
how are you going to get this legislation passed to penalize employers for hiring illegals? In 1986 Ronald Reagan came on tv and told us he would sign the immigration reform package that took so much effort to pass despite that that legislation had in his opinion a huge flaw. He said the legislation does not force employers to validate if who they're hiring is legal or not and he said that they would be able to hire illegals without penalty. He said we needed to fix that by passing legislation. It's been 24 years. How are we going to do that? Obviously, we should vote people like Senator McCain who voted for that immigration reform bill as a congressman in 1986 out. We can agree on that. All politicians who voted for that bill should be voted out. but our news media is 100% against us. They're going to keep our people confused and ignorant about it all. we've got obstacles. and from a practical point of view you are going to have to compromise (at best). just my opinion anyway. but from a technical point of view you are correct, we don't have to compromise. I just think it wise to do so and I think if we want to avoid guest workers, we better find some allies who are against guest workers. That means you need people sympathetic to the illegals on your side.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Welcome to the truth. Facts are inconvenient things. It doesn't matter what you think of me or what you think of reality. Truth is truth whether you like it or not.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
we have actual protests in arizona in favor of the illegals. they're almost all mexicans & mexican americans protesting. They are protesting that there be no deporting of people and to let the illegals stay. and they raise up banners sometimes with cesar chavez' name on it. you can convince me that cesar was against new illegals coming here. You are insane if you think that the ethnic mexican community wants to send them home. they do not, in overwhelming numbers. You live in a dream-world if you think otherwise. if we want to solve this problem, then we must respect the sensibilities of the mexicans. You can't get agreement from the democrats unless you do this. if you don't get agreement from the democrats, then you'll get guest workers which is what the republicans want and which is worse than illegal immigrants. and I don't think anything negative of you. I just think you're nuts.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Now, let's pick apart your argument. Red Jones: All Mexican-Americans are on-board with no deportation. Who is right and who is wrong? You are 100% WRONG. You claim all, meaning 100%, meaning every single one. I never made that claim. You say I did. You are wrong again. That is simply not true. You claim history is wrong. YOU ARE WRONG. I'll take your apology and retraction any time you want to give it.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
Just did a cursory search on Chavez. Here's what I found. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Ch%C3%A1vez "The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
No kidding. I lived in California for many years. I voted for Prop 187. Would you care to tell me I never did any of that? You also claim I've never seen any of this. Would you like to dig a deeper hole for yourself or would you prefer to apologize and stop now?
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
That is because Chavez was a Union Leader and while he championed the rights of legal immigrants, he also understood the laws of Supply and Demand. With an unlimited supply of cheap labor, Chavez would never be able to organize a union or get away with demanding better treatment or higher wages. In short, Chavez understood reality and also argued for immigration restrictions. The real history is very much different from the "folk tales" that people think they know. It always is. The sad thing is that too many people buy into the folk tales and never look at what really happened.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
mirage, you're an idiot. I never argued that ALL mexican americans want this or want that. I said the overwhelming majority do not want the illegals sent home. and I said that it was ludicrous to think that if cesar chavez was alive then he would want them sent home, and if you look at the context of our conversation and what you said you implied that - that cesar chavez would be for deporting people. It is exactly the same as saying that MLK was against civil rights in the 1960's. You are an idiot. you build up little logic games based on garbage. don't you have anything better to do with your time?
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
here's what I'd like to tell you. you're an idiot. you simply enjoy dysfunctionalism and meaningless argument. mental masturbation and argument for argument's sake is what you're into. have fun.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
The hell you say! What would they do about it? Are you seriously suggesting that the United States CANNOT enforce its immigration laws because of what some yahoos from another country think about it? Do you think that Americans can go to Mexico and demand that they be given special treatment and allowed to stay and that no other Americans can be deported or jailed for committing crimes? I don't believe you are that stupid.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. that is all you have mirage. you're just a bluffer. you have no real facts relating to our discussion. just obfuscation and unrelated claims? mirage - something illusory, without substance or reality. that is you. I said that the ethnic mexicans were overwhelmingly behind the illegals who are already here and in the community. and that is 100% true. anyone who doesn't take that fact seriously is not interested in solving this issue. I never said 'all', you said that I said 'all'. and you offerred evidence of this labor union leader named Chavez from 1969?????? There's a huge difference between trying to stop new illegals from coming and kicking out the existing ones. You can't even get the 2 ideas straight in your mind as you've confused them. discussion with you is an illusion. now I see why you selected your name.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Who gives a rat's ass what he would, or wouldn't, do? The fact is that the ILLEGALS are in America ILLEGALLY--is there some part of that that you just can't comprehend? They need to go get in the back of the line, behind the people who have been trying to come into the country legally and have been waiting in some cases for years. The illegals and their supporters can whine and bitch all they want to but they need to go to the back of the line. And if they won't do that I have no sympathy or respect for them and I certainly have none for their supporters.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Reagan was wrong. What he should have done is what Eisenhower did. Have another Operation Wetback and deport the illegals. And not just an escort to the border either but delivered so far down in Mexico that they couldn't just waltz back across the border the minute your back was turned.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It won't work. You give the ones here now amnesty and that is a green light for many more millions of them to come in, knowing that in a few years people like you will be clamoring to allow them to stay too. America is being buried by delusional liberals.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. James, don't be offended when I tell you this because I'm not happy about it. but we can't even pass a law to penalize employers for hiring illegal immigrants. Its been 24 years since government purposely passed a law to provide a procedure through which employers could hire illegals without penalty. In 24 years we can't even correct that 'mistake'. Our people pretend that congress made a mistake. They made no mistake. People stood on the floor of the House and they said that if the legislation was passed, then black market sources would make up fake documents in large quantity, sell them to illegal immigrants and these people would move into our work force in large numbers. I read in the WSJ at the time that congressmen stood up and said that in the House before this legislation was passed. The WSJ said that leadership of the US Senate would not allow any legislation to even be voted on that would force employers to stop hiring illegals. Ronald Reagan said this too on national tv. we can't even pass a law to force our own employers to hire our own people rather than foreigners in our own country. The US of A is an un-done, un-tied country. The interests of the Americans mean nothing to our government. and our people are too feeble to even think about this, much less do anything about it. Half the flag-wavers who rail against illegal immigration will vote for politicians who tell them that they'll bring in guest workers. and guest workers are the same as illegal immigrants. Our system is completely dysfunctional in that our government does not act in our interests at all. Lots of other countries have governments much more responsive to their people than our government. In europe they were dissatisfied with illegal immigration and with legal immigration. they passed laws to cut it way back and they did that. we in america do not have the same influence on our government that they have. for 24 years we've been unable to pass a law to punish employers for hiring illegals. and our people don't even know this. They are against illegal immigrants, but they don't even know why we have them. How can we possibly assert our will through our government? About 3 months ago I was having casual conversation with illegal immigrants from mexico. they were talking about how America is really going downhill dramatically. they see us as a feeble people. we are. They were not gloating over this, they were just speaking 'matter-of-fact'.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
GreyLmist: They're not dictators here. Oh yes, they most definitely run the show here in America. Who do you think the congresscritters listen to: the white majority or the mexicons when they bitch and scream like spoiled brats?? We've been sold out since 1965 on the immigration issue, and it pisses me off every day I open my eyes on this Earth.
__________________________________________________________ And if the Mafia started protesting because bank robbers were being tried and jailed, so what? What difference should it make to AMERICANS what a bunch of Mexicans think about the immigration policies? I think our congress should have an immigration law that mirrors Mexico's and then laugh like hell when the hypocritical Mexicans start talking about how terrible it is. Because Mexico is far more strict on illegal aliens than America ever has been. And they don't allow them to stay either. Imagine that, a bunch of hypocrites and you're taking up for them.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I got side-tracked on a discussion with an illusion who calls himself mirage. they're here illegally, I respect your point. but I don't respect the law. because the law was modified to let them come here. it was always illegal for them to come, always illegal for the employer to hire them, but no penalty to the employer, the law was purposely made to avoid a penalty to the employer. and as you know, there's generally been no penalty to the 'illegal' either. the resulting situation was that 25 million people came and put down roots here. those roots are so deep in our community in that these people hold jobs, pay bills and have children who think that they are Americans that it would be negative for our community to kick them out. I think we've explored our differences on this issue adequately. I sincerely hope that somebody might see my point of view as I have tried hard to deliver it.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Yes you did. So, you think all Ethnic Mexicans think alike. Is it some or all? You keep saying "Ethnic Mexicans" as if all of them think alike. So let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you really think they all think alike? If you didn't, then you would have said, "some". Keep digging.
Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is laughing and saying, "Finally! I won't be the worst President ever!"
I doubt you will find many people who post on this board who are sympathetic to the illegals no matter what sob story they tell. Certainly folks who post on boards more in tune with thinking America OWES something to the illegals might think that it would be wrong to deport them. But so long as Americans have to jump through all kinds of hoops to enter other countries, and especially to be allowed to stay, and when Americans dare not try to influence their government or elections under penalty of time in a foreign hell hole jail, I doubt you will find all that many Americans sympathetic to the illegals and clamoring to allow them to stay.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. please don't be offended. but only people of lower intelligence believe that our government listens to us. neither the white americans, black americans or mexican-americans want guest workers. but the politicians tell us that they will give us guest workers. who are they (the politicians) listening to? it is not us. lesson - we'd better stick with the mexican-americans on this issue and let the illegals stay or else we'll be run over by government like a steam-roller compacting asphalt. I think one thing that I wish to communicate to others outside of Arizona is that Arizona and other border states are becoming majority mexican. the whites are becoming the minority. so perhaps this affects my sensitivity to mexican-american sensibilities. I like to speak english. Some people have hostilities to white people and would like to force us to speak spanish. we shouldn't be dividing ourselves up. we should listen to what the mexicans want if we had any brains at all. they can be our allies on this issue, but we must make a deal, the existing illegals stay and we shut off new arrivals. they'll agree to that. our government won't agree. the threat to us is not the ethnic mexicans. the threat is the regime that rules our country.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
That's PRECISELY the reason that illegals and their American-born brats should be forcibly evicted: the rest of the planet will get the message and stop the gate-crashing. I have no sympathy for the American-born children of illegal invaders, their PARENTS put them in an untenable position. Forcible eviction would see many of these parents killed by their children, a just consequence in my book.
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#25. To: Red Jones (#21)
Mexican americans and Cesar Chavez are exactly like me.
#26. To: SonOfLiberty (#24)
#27. To: Red Jones (#17)
What I'm telling you is that the hard-line on illegals where we say 'kick them all out' is extremely divisive and makes any solution to illegal immigrant problem impossible.
#28. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#25)
#29. To: Red Jones (#26)
#30. To: GreyLmist (#27)
That is the solution which should penalize them as well with never being able to apply for citizenship here.
#31. To: Red Jones (#30)
I would rather compromise and let the existing illegals stay and then stop all new illegals as well as not have guest workers. The democrats will go along with that solution.
I am becoming convinced that one of the reasons we can't find a solution is because of intractable opinions motivated by racism.
. It is today's republicans who will not allow that solution.
#32. To: SonOfLiberty (#29)
I honestly don't care about Chavez or your debate about him with mirage. What I'm telling you is that running around screaming "mental illness!" "stupid!" and "idiot!" during a discussion will get you put on the bozo-filter by most people here in short order.
#33. To: Red Jones (#32)
(Edited)
#34. To: Red Jones (#16)
(Edited)
#35. To: SonOfLiberty (#33)
#36. To: Red Jones (#35)
#37. To: GreyLmist (#34)
#38. To: Red Jones (#30)
(Edited)
#39. To: Red Jones (#37)
(Edited)
if you want to nurture the tax base, then you should nurture people who produce in the economy. the illegal immigrants that are here are producers. If you were to deport them, then yes it would shock our economy and we would immediately have a smaller economy. We would be able to move american workers into those jobs. but it would take time to recover in terms of the economy's size. in the meantime the local governments would collect less tax revenue. that would be extremely negative for our people. an economy should be nurtured for the sake of prosperity for the people. not deported.
#40. To: SonOfLiberty (#36)
Later gator.
#41. To: GreyLmist (#38)
There was already a deal made years ago to give illegals a path to citizenship. That is what encouraged them to keep coming, far more than the rogue employers you point to
#42. To: GreyLmist (#38)
We don't have to compromise and give them citizenship in order to stop all new illegals and have no guest workers. That's a false argument.
#43. To: Red Jones (#21)
You've argued that mexican-americans want to see illegal immigrants sent back to their home countries and you've argued that Cesar Chavez felt this way.
#44. To: mirage (#43)
#45. To: Red Jones (#21)
Mirage: Some Mexican-Americans are Minutemen. Some are Border Patrol agents.
#46. To: Red Jones, mirage (#44)
On a few occasions, concerns that undocumented migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of undocumented immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and US Senator Walter Mondale.[6] In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report undocumented immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[7][8][9][10][11]
#47. To: Red Jones (#44)
we have actual protests in arizona in favor of the illegals. they're almost all mexicans & mexican americans protesting.
#48. To: SonOfLiberty, Red Jones (#46)
#49. To: mirage (#45)
#50. To: mirage (#47)
Would you care to tell me I never did any of that?
#51. To: Red Jones (#12)
These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home. These ethnic mexicans don't want new illegals coming. but they will not allow the illegal mexicans to be sent back.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#52. To: mirage (#48)
#53. To: Red Jones (#26)
Saying that Washington was loyal to the english king during that war is exactly the same as saying that Cesar Chavez would kick out the existing illegals in our country.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#54. To: Red Jones (#37)
We don't have any prominent politicians in our whole country who publicly advocate what Ronald Reagan advocated - that we accept the illegals and close the door.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#55. To: Red Jones (#37)
We're far better off at asking the illegals to be citizens and let them be free and equal and then shutting the door.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#56. To: James Deffenbach (#51)
Are you seriously suggesting that the United States CANNOT enforce its immigration laws because of what some yahoos from another country think about it?
#57. To: GreyLmist (#14)
Red Jones: These ethnic mexicans who were born here will not tolerate seeing the illegals sent home.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#58. To: Red Jones (#44)
You are insane if you think that the ethnic mexican community wants to send them home. they do not, in overwhelming numbers. You live in a dream-world if you think otherwise.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#59. To: James Deffenbach (#53)
Who gives a rat's ass what he would, or wouldn't, do? The fact is that the ILLEGALS are in America ILLEGALLY--is there some part of that that you just can't comprehend?
#60. To: Red Jones (#52)
I said that the ethnic mexicans were overwhelmingly behind the illegals who are already here and in the community.
#61. To: Red Jones (#59)
I think we've explored our differences on this issue adequately. I sincerely hope that somebody might see my point of view as I have tried hard to deliver it.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#62. To: X-15 (#57)
Who do you think the congresscritters listen to: the white majority or the mexicons when they bitch and scream like spoiled brats??
#63. To: Red Jones (#59)
those roots are so deep in our community in that these people hold jobs, pay bills and have children who think that they are Americans that it would be negative for our community to kick them out.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
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