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Immigration
See other Immigration Articles

Title: 14th Amendment never meant for illegals--Proposed Texas law could force Supreme Court to decide
Source: The Washington Times
URL Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news ... ver-meant-for-illegals/?page=1
Published: Aug 24, 2010
Author: Gerald Walpin
Post Date: 2010-08-24 21:10:27 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 198
Comments: 17

The suggestion by at least three senators that the Constitution be amended to deny birthright citizenship to children of illegal aliens born in the United States has induced derogatory retorts that to do so would negate the 14th Amendment's protection of civil rights. Historical facts - ignored by those opposed - in fact demonstrate that such an amendment would reinstate the rule as originally intended by the adoption of the 14th Amendment in 1868.

At issue is the first clause of the 14th Amendment, which states, "All persons born ... in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States." As the Supreme Court held in the Slaughterhouse Cases shortly after the adoption of that amendment, the main purpose "was to establish the citizenship of the negro," who, while recently freed in the Civil War, "were still not only not citizens, but were incapable of becoming so by anything short of an amendment to the Constitution." No one has ever suggested that the three civil rights amendments (13th, 14th and 15th) would have been adopted, absent the need to give citizenship and protection to blacks.

Even more relevant, and totally ignored in the current discussion, is that, while the 14th Amendment reads "all persons born in the United States" are citizens, it has never been disputed that "all" never meant "all." In 1873, less than five years after the adoption of the 14th Amendment, the Supreme Court addressed the meaning of that citizenship provision by considering the facts surrounding the adoption of the 14th Amendment, "almost too recent to be called history, but which are familiar to us all." The court concluded, without dissent on this point, that "[t]he phrase, 'subject to its jurisdiction' was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."

If that had remained the Supreme Court's ruling on this issue, there would be no need for a new amendment to deny citizenship to children of illegal aliens. But more than a quarter-century later - when the members of the Supreme Court no longer claimed personal knowledge of the events leading up to the 14th Amendment - the court, in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, spoke again on this issue. It first reaffirmed that "all" in the 14th Amendment did not mean "all." It recognized exclusions: A child born in the United States to a member of an Indian tribe, or to ministers or consul of a foreign government, or to alien enemies in hostile occupation, was not a U.S. citizen. The reason for these exceptions was that such parents did not owe this country "direct and immediate allegiance."

This later Supreme Court, however, disagreed with the earlier decision holding that a child born to aliens in this country does not have birthright citizenship, at least on the facts presented in that case. At the time of his birth, Mr. Wong's "mother and father were domiciled residents of the United States, and had established and enjoyed a permanent domicile and residence therein ... and were engaged in the prosecution of business." Mr. Wong had, throughout his life, lived in the United States at the family home in Sacramento Calif., leaving only for short visits to China. These facts were the antithesis of current illegal aliens. Given those facts, the court held that Mr. Wong met the requirement of being "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States, and thus sustained his citizenship from birth.

Should that decision necessarily mean that "all" persons born to illegal aliens automatically receive citizenship? It doesn't even discuss illegal aliens (which did not then exist) and thus does not answer that question.

The court, however, sets forth two conditions that, if existent, warrant providing citizenship to children of aliens: "allegiance" and "ligeance." For example, American Indians were excluded from birthright citizenship, because they were held to owe allegiance to their tribes, not to the United States. Ligeance, for those unfamiliar with that old English term, is the "connection between sovereign and subject by which they were mutually bound, the former to protection and the securing of justice, the latter to faithful service."

A bill just introduced in the Texas Legislature by Rep. Leo Berman prohibiting the issuance of a birth certificate to a newborn child of an illegal alien - if enacted - would undoubtedly make it necessary for the Supreme Court to decide which of its two 19th-century holdings on the meaning of the citizenship provision in the 14th Amendment is the correct one as related to children of illegal aliens.

That issue would be presented by a lawsuit by such child to require issuance of the birth certificate and for a declaration of the unconstitutionality of the law. The court would then have to consider whether an illegal alien meets the requisite requirements of allegiance and ligeance to have truly placed himself "subject to the jurisdiction of" this country's government. How would that be possible given the alien's violation of this country's laws by entering and remaining? Isn't violation of law, by definition, inconsistent with allegiance and, particularly, faithful service to this country?

Unless that statute is enacted in Texas or another state, this issue cannot readily be presented to the Supreme Court because of a judicial prerequisite to hearing a case that requires the plaintiff to have "standing" - a personal interest. It is doubtful that any interested taxpayer would have standing to object to issuance of a birth certificate, documenting a claim of citizenship by a child of an illegal alien. Hence, absent a case challenging a state's refusal to issue a birth certificate, the courts could only rule on it if and when the government itself were to raise this issue in the courts - unlikely, at least with the current administration.

Thus, without state action on the subject, the only practical way to return to the original intent of the 14th Amendment would be through a new constitutional amendment. Beyond that, these facts demonstrate that those seeking to return to that original intent should not be castigated for supposedly seeking to emasculate the 14th Amendment; they are not.

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#1. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

Should be a slam dunk.

If a man has nothing that he is willing to die for, then he has nothing worth living for.

Give Me Liberty  posted on  2010-08-24   21:13:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Give Me Liberty (#1)

Yeah, should be. Personally, I think every amendment in the Constitution other than the Bill of Rights, should be abolished/rescinded.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-24   21:19:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

The court, however, sets forth two conditions that, if existent, warrant providing citizenship to children of aliens: "allegiance" and "ligeance." For example, American Indians were excluded from birthright citizenship, because they were held to owe allegiance to their tribes, not to the United States. Ligeance, for those unfamiliar with that old English term, is the "connection between sovereign and subject by which they were mutually bound, the former to protection and the securing of justice, the latter to faithful service."

Application for a Mexican Consular Matricula should in and of itself be evidence of intent to retain extranational citizenship.

"Chicago politicians are NOT officially dead until they have failed to vote in TWO presidential elections.” - Cynicom

Dakmar  posted on  2010-08-24   21:25:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Dakmar (#3)

I don't think there is anything particularly "wrong" with people having dual citizenship. The problem(s) arise when illegal aliens have children in the US and the children, through a bad interpretation of the Constitution, are automatically given citizenship. And the fact is that whatever country their parents owe allegiance to (usually Mexico in the case of most of the illegals) is the country they are citizens of. No one from another country, or their children, should ever be given automatic citizenship. It is something that should be applied for by someone who is presumed to be old enough to know what they are doing and doing so willingly. A baby has no idea about citizenship.

Having said all that, that I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with having dual citizenship, I don't think that people with dual citizenship should be eligible to be president. While it is possible that one might be a good president and the conflict of interest might never come up, it could. Better not to take the chance (imo).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-24   21:35:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: James Deffenbach (#4)

Consular Matricula has nothing to do with dual citizenship, it's merely a document provided by a foreign government to attempt to establish identification to their nationals in a nation in which they reside, usually illegally. Legal resident aliens and even visitors have a visa, naturalized citizens have all sorts of documentation provided by their newly adopted country. The only function a Consular Matricula serves is to state :

This is Pedro, Trust Us!
Signed, Mexico.

"Chicago politicians are NOT officially dead until they have failed to vote in TWO presidential elections.” - Cynicom

Dakmar  posted on  2010-08-24   21:48:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Dakmar (#5)

LOL! I didn't know what that $#it was about, or if I did I had forgotten it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-24   21:53:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: James Deffenbach (#4)

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with having dual citizenship,

Here is the Oath of Allegiance:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

It's quite clear, isn't it?

Naturalized citizens that vote in Mexico or Europe just fry me, and I tell them so. A man can serve but one master, and can have but one country, AFAIC.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-08-24   22:08:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: randge (#7)

My position is in regard to American citizens who may become citizens of another country by marriage. It happens and so far as I know there is nothing inherently wrong with it. You don't renounce your American citizenship (if you claimed it to start with). Not saying you can't. Some people do and for various reasons. But what I was talking about was actually a simple thing, just marrying a foreign national. To do that, at least in the only situation I am familiar with, you have to jump through all kinds of hoops. And I will tell you this for free--American bureaucracy, bad as it is, is not the worst in the world. ahaha.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-24   22:16:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: James Deffenbach (#8)

And I will tell you this for free--American bureaucracy, bad as it is, is not the worst in the world.

That is true. Yur-a-peein bureaucracy is worse.

But I'll offer you a free nugget too. You can slice through all that Euro red tape if you are a hooked up Mason. Preferably of the Grand Orient variety, and that's a fact.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-08-24   22:22:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: randge (#9) (Edited)

That is true. Yur-a-peein bureaucracy is worse.

The country I was referring to was not in Europe. But if I had to become a Mason to cut through red tape to get married or anything else I would still be single and not doing whatever it was that required being a Mason to do it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-24   22:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: James Deffenbach (#10)

But if I had to become a Mason to cut through red tape or to get married or anything else I would still be single and not doing whatever it was that required being a Mason to do it.

Aye, and I'll have none of their dark oaths either.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-08-24   22:38:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: randge (#11)

I agree with you. I think many, many good men have been conned into becoming Masons and many of them, especially those in the lower degrees, probably have no idea what they have hooked up with. Not to excuse them because anyone with two or more adequately functioning brain cells should know that something is not all good when part(s) of it have to be kept secret and parts of it can't be known until you get so deep into it that you can't get out. But still, I hate to see people being conned.

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," page 104)

"Drop the theological barnacles [timeless Biblical truths] from the religion of Jesus, as taught by Him, and by the Essenes and Gnostics of the first centuries, and it becomes Masonry, Masonry in its purity, derived as it is from the old Hebrew Kaballa as a part of the great universal religion of the remotest antiquity." (J. D. Buck, "Mystic Masonry," page 119)

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-24   22:43:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: James Deffenbach (#0) (Edited)

the only practical way to return to the original intent of the 14th Amendment would be through a new constitutional amendment.

Not necessarily:

http://www.usconstitution.n et /const.html#Am14

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-25   14:32:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: GreyLmist (#13)

Yeah, I would like to see Congress pass a statute that said that illegal aliens would be deported as soon as they are captured and that they would take their children with them, no matter where they were born. I don't think it's gonna happen but I think it should.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-25   14:55:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: James Deffenbach (#4)

I don't think that people with dual citizenship should be eligible to be president. While it is possible that one might be a good president and the conflict of interest might never come up, it could. Better not to take the chance (imo).

I don't think anyone with citizenship elsewhere should be allowed to hold office or be an Elector here, for the same possible conflict of interest you cited for the Presidency; and also because of the possibilities of insurrection and rebellion, as well as giving aid and comfort to our enemies, as cited in the 14th Amendment at #3. Only Citizens of the United States are authorized as eligibles, not people who are extra-territorially dual/multi-citizens of other countries. [Ref: Article 1, Sections 2 and 3; Article 2, Section 1] In fact, I think dual/multis could be barred and heavily Poll-taxed as citizens of other countries for even trying to vote in our elections. [Ref: Amendment 24] I'm also opposed to citizenship by marriage. That should not be a sidestep to the Naturalization process.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-25   15:46:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: GreyLmist (#15)

I'm also opposed to citizenship by marriage.

Well, it happens that sometimes Americans become citizens of other countries by marrying one of the other countries citizens.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-25   15:51:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: James Deffenbach (#16)

Well, it happens that sometimes Americans become citizens of other countries by marrying one of the other countries citizens.

Yes, but are they forced to be citizens of other countries by marriage, which would jeopardize their options to Constitutionally hold office and be Electors here, or do they choose to become citizens of other countries by marriage? If forced, that would be like kidnapping and a serious foreign relations problem. If they choose to become citizens of other countries too, stay out of our electoral system here and do no harm is my view. I also think that marriage shouldn't be used as a way for citizens of other countries to sidestep our nation's Naturalization process.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-26   6:42:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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