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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Source: Reuters
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 2, 2010
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2010-09-02 21:17:00 by Flintlock
Keywords: ODIN!!!, Hey-Sus, AL-LA, Big Guy On A Throne With A Bea
Views: 8363
Comments: 141

LONDON (Reuters) – God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics, the eminent British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book.

In "The Grand Design," co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Mlodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

Hawking, 68, who won global recognition with his 1988 book "A Brief History of Time," an account of the origins of the universe, is renowned for his work on black holes, cosmology and quantum gravity.

Since 1974, the scientist has worked on marrying the two cornerstones of modern physics -- Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which concerns gravity and large-scale phenomena, and quantum theory, which covers subatomic particles.

His latest comments suggest he has broken away from previous views he has expressed on religion. Previously, he wrote that the laws of physics meant it was simply not necessary to believe that God had intervened in the Big Bang.

He wrote in A Brief History ... "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God."

In his latest book, he said the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting another star other than the Sun helped deconstruct the view of the father of physics Isaac Newton that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos but was created by God.

"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions -- the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.

Hawking, who is only able to speak through a computer-generated voice synthesizer, has a neuro muscular dystrophy that has progressed over the years and left him almost completely paralyzed.

He began suffering the disease in his early 20s but went on to establish himself as one of the world's leading scientific authorities, and has also made guest appearances in "Star Trek" and the cartoons "Futurama" and "The Simpsons."

Last year he announced he was stepping down as Cambridge University's Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, a position once held by Newton and one he had held since 1979.

"The Grand Design" is due to go on sale next week.

(Editing by Steve Addison)


Poster Comment:

But, But, BUT!!! What about Hey-Sus?

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#48. To: buckeroo (#42)

I prefer Mud to you Buck. He has better manners then you do.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:36:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Flintlock (#0)

I'll bet he believes aeroplanes made the WTC disintegrate too.


Why would an obviously faked video of a plane hitting the WTC be aired on International news? Why wouldn't they just use a real video of the plane?

wudidiz  posted on  2010-09-02   22:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: buckeroo (#38)

... he would spit you out of your own website in a heartbeat.

That's not saying much, hell, it wouldn't even be much of a challenge for Trig Palin.

Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)

Esso  posted on  2010-09-02   22:36:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: A K A Stone (#48)

I prefer Mud to you Buck.

This is good news as I am not queer in any way ... exactly how does Mud open his silk kimono to you; I am sure the women on 4um want to learn how you connived Mud to lay with you?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-09-02   22:39:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: FormerLurker (#26)

NOBODY can say with any degree of certainty what existed prior to the creation of our universe, or the grand scheme of things beyond our understanding. Unless Hawking was around prior to the creation of THIS universe, he's just guessing, and has no logical or rational reason to claim he KNOWS that the universe can "create itself from nothing".

Well.... in a nutshell, Hawking considers the creation of the universe (big bang style) to be not just the creation of all matter, but of time itself. This is in line Einstein's theory of relativity which says that space and time are intimately connected, such that you cannot have one without the other. Ergo, Hawking compares questions about time before the big bang with the metaphor of what is north of the north pole? Just as it makes no sense to ask what is north of the north pole, it's also makes no sense to ask what happened before the big bang, since time did not exist "until" the big bang.

Many Christians have no trouble with the concept of God creating the universe, but I think few have wondered if God might have also created time itself. I suspect most have always assumed that God is subject to time just as all of us are.

One question I'd have for him would be, what IS gravity? Is Hawking saying that just because there is such a thing as gravity, there can't be a superior intelligence that exists beyond his own human mind?

As I posted above, I think the title of this thread incorrectly claims Hawking is an athiest. As far as I know, Hawking is an agnostic. I think any true scientist would never be an athiest, as proving God's non-existence will never happen. Can't prove a negative.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-09-02   22:40:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: A K A Stone (#44)

There are about 5 over there I am real tempted to give the boot.

We both know you can't afford to lose five over there.

Because I'm feeling generous, I'll throw you a bone. It's not meant to be a DICKTATERship, wherein you are the DICK and your posters are the TATERS. What is the purpose of you site anyway? To have posters "like" and "care" for you? Is your ego really that desperate and fragile?

To paraphrase Tommy The Mad Artist: It is better to be hated for who or what you are, than loved for who or what you are not.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-02   22:40:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Flintlock (#47)

Hawkings theory is idiocy. These are not my words but a cut and paste of some comment made by some guy. But it hits the nail on the head.

Next time you’re at the beach, pick up a grain of sand, look at it and then look all around you. Contemplate the universe and everything in it. Now imagine that everything in the universe came from, not that grain of sand, but something smaller but not something smaller, rather something that did not exist. If gravity, a physical property, where so great as to keep all non existent matter held together, then what was it that caused gravity to be overwhelmed with such force as to allow the Big Bang to occur.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:40:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Pinguinite, gengis gandhi, Original_Intent, all (#17)

Is Hawking saying there is no God or just that God didn't necessarily create the Universe.

God could be the Creator of the laws that facilitate the creation of the Universe.


Why would an obviously faked video of a plane hitting the WTC be aired on International news? Why wouldn't they just use a real video of the plane?

wudidiz  posted on  2010-09-02   22:41:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Pinguinite (#52)

Can't prove a negative.

Yes you can. Quite easily.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:43:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: A K A Stone (#54)

Put SG on full privilege, Stone. After all I told Fredo he could come back.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-09-02   22:44:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: abraxas (#53)

Care for me means not hostile to me. If you want to come and just attack me and not contribute. You are not welcome. You can still sign up and I wont stop you. But you will not receive a welcome.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:44:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Jethro Tull (#57)

He doesn't want to join up. If he does all he has to do is ask. Or just go sign up. Here is a little secret. Even people who don't put a valid email address. They all get elevated to full status.

To be honest I don't know a lot of Sams positions. Except his fuck stone position.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:46:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Jethro Tull (#57)

I think someone killed the real Fred and took his account.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: A K A Stone (#58)

Care for me means not hostile to me.

Stone, Fredo calls you a loon, an asshole and a s'bag. Banning SG while permitting those insults is absurd.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-09-02   22:47:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: A K A Stone (#23)

The Bible says that those who don't believe in God are fools. I believe the Bible.

I'm pretty sure Hawking is an agnostic, not an athiest. Athiests don't believe in God. Agnostics aren't sure one way or the other. But that probably still qualifies as a fool by your definition, and the Bible's.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-09-02   22:47:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: wudidiz (#55)

Is Hawking saying there is no God or just that God didn't necessarily create the Universe.

He says, "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

Basically, he is saying that God isn't the reason for creation. Hence, he would then be demoted from Creator status. So, spontaneous is meant to supercede God.........but I think God could be spontaneous. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-02   22:48:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: gengis gandhi, (#47)

(((ping)))

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-02   22:49:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Jethro Tull (#61)

lol I never banned SG.

Fred is more like an interloper then a welcome guest right now.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   22:49:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: buckeroo (#27)

Are you saying, Hawking is a living GOD?

Uh..... did I say that??

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-09-02   22:49:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: abraxas (#18)

i think a high IQ in many cases is overrated. EQ is much more important in terms of relationship success. i know a number of high IQers who possess little common sense and with low sociability.

christine  posted on  2010-09-02   22:49:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: A K A Stone, Samuel Gray (#59)

I don't know a lot of Sams positions. Except his fuck stone position.

In your dreams, JizzBelly.

Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)

Esso  posted on  2010-09-02   22:53:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Flintlock (#0)

But, But, BUT!!! What about Hey-Sus?

Hawking Said It, I Believe It And That Settles It!

(bumper sticker we'd like to see)

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-09-02   22:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Pinguinite (#66)

Uh..... did I say that??

In a sense. Hawking is a mere mortal strapped on the planet in a wheelchair. And despite his pathetic wheelchair condition, he can't sanction how the universe was or is or shall be created no matter how intelligent he may appear... and this goes for ALL of us.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-09-02   22:53:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: buckeroo (#51) (Edited)

I am sure the women on 4um want to learn how you connived Mud to lay with you?

uh...no, we don't. i don't even want that visual in my head.

christine  posted on  2010-09-02   22:54:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: A K A Stone (#58)

Care for me means not hostile to me.

Nah, I don't want to come over, especially not if you are going to withhold the coveted welcome mat. If there is no tipper tape parade or cute little balloons and some cheering for me upon arrival, I shall not sign up. Beyond that, I can't promise to be good and contribute and not "attack" (whatever that means. lol

You come over here and are hostile to posters on a regular basis. Does that mean that you don't shit in your own nest, but hold and purge on Christine's instead?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-02   22:55:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: christine (#71)

i don't even want that visual image in my head.

Ever see Deliverance?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-09-02   22:57:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: christine (#67)

I agree with each and every word on that post. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-02   22:57:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Pinguinite (#62)

The terms 'atheist' and 'agnostic' often get interchanged. In truth, the position most fitting a scientist worth their three stripes and hood is that of agnostic, which simply means 'without knowledge', or colloquially, 'we don't know.'

Even Richard Dawkins says there's "almost certainly" no god, not because there is any doubt of the matter on his part, but because a scientist should always allow room for new knowledge or discoveries that might illuminate or fortify an argument previously thought impossible or even absurd.

What Hawking has said here is nothing new. Pierre-Simon Laplace built a working model of the universe and wrote a massive treatise on physics and mathematics, both of which he submitted to Napoleon for review. When Napoleon inquired as to the absence of god from the works, Laplace is said to have replied: "I had no need of that hypothesis" or "I did not need to make that assumption in order for it to work." Some translations even have it as "Sire, because it worked well enough without him."

Do not multiply entities unnecessarily.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-09-02   22:58:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: buckeroo (#73)

yes, good film, but that scene was disturbing to say the least.

christine  posted on  2010-09-02   22:59:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: James Deffenbach (#39)

Now this Hawkings guy would have you believe that he is brilliant and knows everything worth knowing.

That doesn't seem to be his character as I gathered it. I read his "A Brief History of Time" some years ago and it's already well outdated. He wrote that book before it was discovered (if it's true) that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. I remember distinctly his mentioning that if the big bang expanded at a rate the smallest fraction of speed less than what it was, gravity would have caused a recontraction. That is not accepted by any cosmosogist since it was discovered (?) that the universe expansion is accelerating in defiance of gravity, not slowing down.

So he was wrong before and it's well documented. I've no reason to think him dishonest. Wrong is always possible, but that's not a crime.

But you can take all his knowledge and add it to that of the rest of mankind and it would not equal that of the Creator. His thoughts are far above ours, even those of the man who said God wasn't necessary.

Agreed. But I don't think he's saying God is "not necessary" in the sense that we would be here today whether or not God is real. I think he's saying that God is not the only possible explanation for the creation of the universe which is different.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-09-02   23:04:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: christine (#67)

Uuuhhhggg.........here is a cas in point:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is ALLEGED to have an IQ of 180.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-02   23:04:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Pinguinite (#77)

he's saying that God is not the only possible explanation for the creation of the universe which is different.

And that is why he not only looks like a retard but his mind is that of one.

Also, his book was out of date when it came out. It was always lacking.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   23:08:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Samuel Gray (#75)

Pierre-Simon Laplace built a working model of the universe...

Cripes, I wonder where he found the space to do that. That must've been one hell of a shop.

Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)

Esso  posted on  2010-09-02   23:09:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Christine, Jethro Tull, critter (#80)

Tell Tull to reactivate my account at 4um. I've been banned for months now and I want to chat with my old buddy critter.

I won't beg to be let back on. My banning was a travesty and I think even you know that.

I'll check my 4um account tomorrow. Thanks big shot, I know you've got the pull.

"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara

Fred Mertz posted on 2010-09-02 23:04:52 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Edit

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   23:15:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: A K A Stone (#54)

Now imagine that everything in the universe came from, not that grain of sand, but something smaller but not something smaller, rather something that did not exist. If gravity, a physical property, where so great as to keep all non existent matter held together, then what was it that caused gravity to be overwhelmed with such force as to allow the Big Bang to occur.

That's an excellent question, Stone, and I don't think anyone, including Hawking, is claiming to know the answer. Right now cosmologists think they have things figured out back to a few fractions of a second after the bang occurred. Knowing what happened at the instant of it is still beyond theory, much less what made it happen.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-09-02   23:17:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: abraxas (#78)

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is ALLEGED to have an IQ of 180.

Wow that sure blows aka mallethead's 175 out of the water.

Dopey ol' Hawking's on the bottom of the totem pole.

Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)

Esso  posted on  2010-09-02   23:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: christine (#76)

yes, good film, but that scene was disturbing to say the least.

Depicting female rape is lurid entertainment. "It's essential to the story line!" we're told.

Depicting male rape oughta be against the law because as we macho sumbitches learned from DELIVERANCE there's nothing stimulating about it.

"Boy, yew shore gotta purty mouth!"

Ugh.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-09-02   23:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Esso (#83)

I think the "chosen" get graded on a curve of at least 50 points not allotted to the goy.........or they get the answers sent via God fax prior to taking the test. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-02   23:23:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: A K A Stone, Christine (#81)

I don't know what Fred did, but I do miss seeing baldy around here. Please reconsider his banning.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Cheap Bulk .223 ammo cases battle packs south african

Critter  posted on  2010-09-02   23:24:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Pinguinite (#82)

, much less what made it happen.

Or if it happened.

Also just to make it double clear. That wasn't my question. I agree it was a good question. But it came from the comments on a thread about this article at the source as found on my page.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-09-02   23:27:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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