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Title: Former senator, engineers offer ‘proof’ of 9/11 controlled demolitions
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URL Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/ ... rs-911-controlled-demolitions/
Published: Sep 10, 2010
Author: Raw Story
Post Date: 2010-09-10 10:43:08 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 14464
Comments: 259
The nine-year-old body of 9/11 conspiracy theories includes many improbable (and sometimes contradictory) claims, everything from remote-controlled planes flying into the World Trade Center, to a missile hitting the Pentagon, to mass kidnappings of air passengers. But a group of more than 1,200 architects and engineers is building what it hopes is a scientifically sound argument about one 9/11 claim: That the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed not by fires caused by the airplane collisions, but by a controlled demolition. At a press conference in Washington DC, Thursday, the group Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth offered evidence "that all three WTC skyscrapers on September 11, 2001, in NYC were destroyed by explosive controlled demolition." The third building the group referred to was World Trade Center 7, a skyscraper that collapsed about eight hours after the main WTC towers fell. For many 9/11 "truthers," WTC7's collapse despite not being hit by a plane is the "smoking gun" proving that something other than airplanes brought down the towers. The WTC7 collapse was not addressed in the official 9/11 Commission report. "That building fell completely into its own footprint," blogger Andrew Steele told WKTV in Utica. "You can watch on YouTube yourself and use your own common sense. Even if you don't have a scientific background ... if you have two eyes, you can see that fire alone did not bring down that building." His claims, and those of the 1,270 architects and engineers who have signed on to the effort, were bolstered by the support of former Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel, who said in a press release that "critically important evidence has come forward after the original government building reports were completed." Gravel has been concerned with the events of September 11, 2001, for some time now. He has called for an independent investigation into 9/11. "Unlike the first investigation, this commission should be granted subpoena power and full access to all governmental files and personnel," Gravel wrote. "George Bush should be forced to testify ALONE." San Francisco architect Richard Gage said the way the towers collapsed was consistent with a controlled demolition, not a chaotic structural collapse. "The official FEMA and NIST reports provide insufficient, contradictory, and fraudulent accounts of the circumstances of the towers' destruction," Gage said. "We are therefore calling for a grand jury investigation of NIST officials." But Gage added that "government investigators at the NIST have been forced to acknowledge the free-fall descent, an indicting fact, after being presented with analysis by AE911Truth petition signers." On its Web site, the architects' and engineers' group lists facts that suggest explosives were used to take down the towers. -- Rapid onset of "collapse" -- Sounds of explosions at ground floor - a second before the building's destruction -- Symmetrical "structural failure" -- through the path of greatest resistance -- at free-fall acceleration -- Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds -- Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional -- FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e. -- Slow onset with large visible deformations -- Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires) -- High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never "collapsed". Debunking9/11, a Web site devoted to disproving the claims of 9/11 "truthers," argues that no aircraft was needed to bring down WTC7, because "while building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner, it was hit by the large perimeter columns of the Tower collapse. It was 400 ft away but the towers were more than 1300 ft tall. As the tower peeled open, it easily tilted over to reach building 7." "Truthers" and debunkers have been arguing for years over whether the scant photographic evidence of WTC7's south side after the main towers' collapse shows enough damage to justify the building's collapse. "All the buildings just as far away from both towers as WTC7 were hit," Debunking9/11 asserts. "The others were either very short buildings which didn't have to support a massive load above or had no fire. Only Building 7 had unfought fires and the massive load of 40 stories above them." "Justice for all." What's wrong with calling for a transparent, internationally-supported investigation? I want to know what happened that day to all of those buildings, and I want the chain of events that happened up to their collapse. Don't care how ugly the truth is, I just want to know. Why is asking for an independent investigation so bad? I'm not an engineering expert, but ALL of the buildings collapsing (WTC 1, 2, 7) look just like every other controlled demolition video I've seen from around the world. The pieces of the day's events (NORAD, Bin Laden's family being sent out, etc) don't fit together right. It just smells fishy. Who got fired for not doing their job? Who went to jail for criminal negligence? People of authority responding "nothing to see here, move along" aren't helping convince me that what we're being told is the truth. I just want to see Justice. Isn't wanting "Justice for all" patriotic?
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#1. To: Ada (#0)
Former senator, Mike Gravel. What a media-hungry nutjob. I do actually know someone who sent $10 to his presidential campaign which does prove that even nutjobs, with publicity, can rake in money from the public no matter how nuts they are. During his "campaign" for president, he went back to NYC where he drove a cab back in the Fifties and took out a classic Yellow Cab. He was promptly involved in a collision.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Richard Gage is AJ's guest as I type.
Well, I left out the part where Gravel lost the Dem primaries in 2008 and then proceeded to switch parties and made a laughable bid to get the LP nomination and run against McStain and Obongo. I'm afraid he's a whackjob and everyone knows it. Your problem is that you think someone supposedly famous (not that he is) actually helps your cause even if 99% of America thinks he's a wacko (which he is). And you want to blame me for not sharing your delusions.
He should change his name to "toostupid", because that was the lamest attempt to discredit 9/11 truth I have ever seen.
God is always good!
No, I won't. You guys don't grasp that a senile whackjob former senator from the early Seventies isn't actually an endorsement you should be seeking. And if you do somehow get such endorsements, you're not expected to brag about it. Of course, the fact that you don't realize that makes the whole thing even funnier. You guys are aware there are con-men that run around trying to take advantage of anyone who will listen to them? And that Gravel is a few ice blocks short of an igloo?
The guy crashed a taxi and he's a nutjob? He would have been my choice for president if it weren't for Ron Paul. I was impressed with what he had to say. That he is a truther only validates my nearlier impression.
46;"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end. "
That's a very tidy ecosystem of Truth you have there.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” M. Ghandi Hey, doesn't this guy know we are way past stage two, the fighting has begun, and the "W" is in sight. Peace.
Amen. Same here.
Actually, you have reached the point where everyone knows to avoid you, change the topic if you try to talk about 9/11, etc. The 9/11 Truth movement peaked 3-4 years ago, part of the Bush-hate peddled by the old elements of the "professional Left", namely the old academic commie ideologues that led the "antiwar" movement (but think Obongo-war is just fine). The future of the Truther movement is declining numbers, an ongoing stream of literature by clever con-men to peddle to the faithful as the decades unfold until all of you die off around 2070 or so. These conspiracy groups are like cults. One key difference is that they do not have a single leader but have many nutjob leaders. It is a form of cultism that is personally defined, not under rigid central control. This tends to make the cult members evaluate everyone around them in light of whether they assent to their Truth or not. It can become their entire way of relating to other human beings.
Those who believe the government is telling the truth about what happened on 9/11 couldn't even begin to build an igloo if we want to talk about being a few ice blocks short. They couldn't make the base of one.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. These conspiracy groups are like cults. One key difference is that they do not have a single leader but have many nutjob leaders. It is a form of cultism that is personally defined, not under rigid central control. Then why are the Jews so scared of 9/11 truthers? The 9/11 truth movement is growing every day, which scares the crap out of Israel.
God is always good!
Yeah, anyone that believes our government about 9/11 might as well off themselves now, they are too stupid to live.
God is always good!
Anyone who believes the government tells the truth about much of anything that they can't independently verify would fit that description.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Many of the earliest Truthers were liberal Dems with a fair number of Jews among them. Like the Tea Party, the sheer numbers have overwhelmed their original demographic.
I suspect the suicide rate is far higher among Truthers than non-Truthers.
Not the best way to win folks over and get across the truth. You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
Actually, I appreciate the honesty. This is typical with cultish persons. For some Truthers, 9/11 is their god. They have somehow latched onto it as a raison d'etre.
You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Did you stop to consider maybe he wasn't trying to get the flies with honey? He just might have been trying to drive the stupid flies away. You know, the stupid ones. So stupid they believe the bullshit the government puts out as the truth. The ones who have no common sense! Are you one of those?
It won't work.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
LOL. I knew it. I think that is not an uncommon tale of woe among the Truther clan.
BBC Correspondent says MOSSAD did 9/11 and Iran doesn't want Nukes
Well, no one could possibly question the neutrality and professionalism of the BBC. [/sarc]
9/11 Truth from Director of US ARMY War College
I don't think Richard Perle was ever a student or the head of the War College.
There's a man who vanished quicker than the imaginary Iraqi WMDs
Last I heard, he and several other key neocons were swirling around the Caspian pipelines. I suspect he was a key player in the trouble in Georgia, along with Israel. Russia put a swift end to that and to Georgia/Ukraine entering NATO.
As you will have noticed if you took the trouble to watch the video, that is a still of Perle in the YouTube. This is Sabrosky below. Dr. Alan Sabrosky I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
Ah, another Authoritarian outs himself, lol. Rigid central control is working so well in Afghanistan,and Iraq, for the US. OMG it worked so well in the USSR, that beacon of rigid central control, and Cuba, and the Nazis have prosperred with that plan for generations.....lol. Or is rigid central control the way your gay lover does you in the ass with his strapon !!? lol Our "W" is on the horizon, but don't worry you can still get your strap-on in prison where you and the real perps will likely end up. Peace.
Good eye.
TooCon doesn't have to look at the evidence in order to make his judgment. He is all knowing.
Excellent video, thankyou.
No. I was pointing out that Truthers operate as a variety of cultists but not under any central control, have no messianic or charismatic leader. Anyway, I can see you guys have gathered for another of your little Truther circle jerks and that's just not my scene so I'll leave you to the moaning sounds of your little echo chamber.
I am well aware that cultists often have compiled obsessive lists with which to bombard any poor soul that falls into their clutches. So, no, I don't generally look at your "evidence". Especially since it rarely turns out to be what you claim it to be. As it turns out, Truther fanatics are pretty untruthful. Funny how that works.
Do you ever look at ANY evidence that doesn't "catapult the propaganda" of the government's official fairy tale? Seriously, do you believe the tale they told about the events of 9/11?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I've said many times that I don't believe they held a complete investigation, that much was withheld or simply ignored. That doesn't mean I'm jumping through the Looking Glass just becuase you think I should.
lots of people did do a thurough investigation of many aspects of the sept 11'th events. You should read their information. Lots of people sacrificed careers to put that info together. Some people died trying to spread that info too.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't, do anything. I was just curious if you believed the bs story they told about it. About how some raghead in a cave overwhelmed what is alleged to be the best military force in the world and caused NORAD to stand down, melted steel with Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™ and all the other insane things they would have you believe. I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night and I don't believe their wild tale for a minute and think people who do have some serious issues and need help.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I think there is a lot we haven't been told, much more they won't allow to be investigated. Like how this bunch should have been caught and deported before 9/11. Like how it appears (to me) that the attack was timed to coincide with our civil defense drills. Like how maybe a lot of buildings really aren't up to the published specs, despite (corrupt) inspectors. Or there is something even more fundamentally wrong with their design. I do find it ironic that I reject the official 9/11 Commission Report as a complete and truthful account, something that many people would think makes me a Truther but you guys are on another planet from me. Some of you guys are the rather exotic Truther types. Some of you have got your antigravity and energy weapons (from the alien UFO stuff at Area 51) and nano-thermite and mini-nukes.
...that's where we come in.
Who, Bush and Cheney?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Mmmmmmmmm... mini-nukes.
That's nothing, even the people who worked on it said it was crap.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Well, we can try to help.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. They gotta stop making them out of concrete and steel. They just crumble everytime someone puts explosives in them.
Why, you're like a missionary, called to saving the perspiring masses from their evil leaders.
I'm very suspicious of construction quality on the eastern seaboard. I've expected for many years to hear news that New York City just collapsed entirely.
I think 7 got hit with a few drops of the Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™. No plane hit it so that must be the explanation.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I've always said WTC7 is the Truthers' strongest case. There simply is no good explanation even offered for what happened to it.
7 is "the smoking gun." No way to explain it other than controlled demolition. Many skyscrapers have had fires that burned much longer and much hotter and never fell. And yet, we have three in one day, none of which should have fallen even with the planes hitting them (and of course no plane hit 7 at all). The chief engineer on the project said that a plane strike would be like a pencil going through a mosquito netting or a screen on a door. Make a hole where it went in but the building could withstand it.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Check out my new 9/11-related thread. Sure looks like some coverup is going on.
The future of the Truther movement is declining numbers, an ongoing stream of literature by clever con-men to peddle to the faithful as the decades unfold until all of you die off around 2070 or so. These conspiracy groups are like cults. One key difference is that they do not have a single leader but have many nutjob leaders. It is a form of cultism that is personally defined, not under rigid central control. Yeah those "Architects and Engineers" are known for the cult tendencies. But, what does it say about you that you pride yourself on your Rove-Gannon-Speak? (which comically enough mirrors Hillary's allegations of a "vast right wing conspiracy") And this press conference in the nation's capital was two days ago. Hardly evidence of a movement past its prime. Especially since none of the proof is worthy of point by point rebuttal. You and your ilk are only interested in frantic attempts at character assassination or clowning. You can keep whistling past the cemetery but keep your passports current.
One concern of mine is any member of AK's congressional delegation must use airplanes, and it's not unusual for them to use small bush and float planes to reach the interior and extreme coastal areas. This is the reason that more than a few famous people and politicians have gone down and died in plane crashes, and it would make it very easy to eliminate any potential problem, like former Sen. Ted Stevens and 9/11 widow Beverly Eckert. (who died in a passenger turboprop crash in New York) If I was part of that delegation I'd resolve to never fly home again or to keep my mouth shut when talking about something that will ultimately lead to the Mossad and criminals in the US govt and Israel's amen corner.
I think you'll find Gravel is in no danger. In fact, I think the gooberment would love it if you designated him as the official spokesman for Truth.
Yes, I know. For the coming day of the Great Awakening of the Truth of 9/11. When you, the faithful saints, will pursue all unbelievers and put them in prison or something. I've read these kinds of veiled threats from the Truthers for years. I find them quite humorous.
The few small fires in WTC 7 could probably have been put out with fire extinguishers. Yet, WTC 7 witness, Barry Jennings (who surfaced through Dylan Avery of Loose Change) mentions no such firefighting attempts by him or anyone else. In fact, his testimony sounds more like a vaudville act: In case of fire, break glass. And apparently that's all he deemed it was of use to him for under the circumstances -- breaking out a window. So why is that? Evidently, there were fire extinguishers on the premises and broken water lines don't explain it either because there was also this on the scene: 9/11 Fireboat That Could - the John J. Harvey N E W Y O R K, Sept. 14 — In the panic of Sept. 11, 2001, as tens of thousands of people tried to leave the island of Manhattan, an aging boat once headed for the scrap heap became a hero of sorts. On 9/11, the John J. Harvey raced to Pier 11, evacuating 150 terrified, dust- covered people. Then came a second call. Firemen battling blazes at the World Trade Center had no water because the twin towers had fallen on the water lines. "The water mains were destroyed, so there was no other source of water available, except for the river," said Tim Ivory, a mechanic who is Harvey's engineer. The fireboat works by sucking in the water it floats on. The Harvey's pumps can shoot 20,000 gallons a minute. Retired by the New York City Fire Department in 1994, the Harvey was supposed to be sold for scrap, but eight fireboat lovers bought it in 1999. They were thinking of making it a floating bar when Ivory said, "Wait, I think we can make it work again." And they did, having no idea how useful it would prove be. For three days, the Harvey joined three active-duty fireboats to provide the only water there was to keep the 9/11 fires from getting worse. [end excerpt] -------- Floating bar...Ivory...soap commercial? Ya can't make this stuff up, right? In any case, they have some 'splaining to do about why 3 fireboats, which could pump about 20,000 gallons a minute each, were available there but "Building 7 had unfought fires". At the very least, Guilliani and his whole office of Emergency Management should be arrested for public endangerment through their gross negligence and mismanagement of the situation.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
I'm open to it. I just require evidence, a trait lacking among Truthers who jump to claim wild conspiracies, nano-thermite, antigravity and energy weapons, and Area 51 technology from UFOs was used to bring down WTC. The Truthers have never weeded out the con-men and nutjobs in their ranks. That's probably the major reason why people think they are kooks, because they let kooks speak for them. I expect this pattern will continue because the Truthers still don't grasp how damaging this is and how it plays into the hands of those who want to promulgate the gooberment's ridiculous "investigation" and the 9/11 Commission report.
These conspiracy groups are like cults. yeah, just like those who still continue to talk about the Kennedy assassination, huh? i believe that the 9/11 truth movement is global and that only those working for government in some capacity or another and have their selfish asses to protect are the majority of those who continue to believe the government CONSPIRACY. con•spir•a•cy
Good heavens.
I posted a link showing that there were 3 working fireboats in the area. If you think WTC 7 fell because of unfought fires, what's your explanation for that in light of the firefighting Harvey and other two crews of a nautical sort on duty?
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Exactly like that, yes. Do you want to buy into the Cubans or the Mafia or the CIA or Mossad or...well...one of the dozen or so other major theories about JFK out there? And many of them are totally ridiculous, presenting the kind of "evidence" you'd expect to find about some story in National Enquirer about some woman who got pregnant with Elvis' baby when she was abducted by a UFO in a three-way with Bigfoot. No doubt, it is stronger overseas where expectations of gross government corruption and criminality are visible on a daily basis. Especially in the Third World. This is essentially another false numbers idea that is popular but entirely false. It doesn't matter who believes what or how many. The truth is the truth and you have to have evidence, not a pack of con-men spinning nonsense for gullible people wherever they are located around the world. I, for one, don't give a rat's ass what people as ignorant as the Afghans or the Egyptians or the Nigerians or Kenyans think about anything (since I would first have to care that these medieval barbarians even exist).
I thought you included the retired fireboat too. That is a nice little story about that boat. Anyway, I never said anything about WTC 7 falling because of unfought fires. I challenge you to find any remark I've made to that effect. I have said steadfastly that WTC 7 is the Truthers' strongest case, I have said that they should pursue that relentlessly because that is the weakest point in the supposed government investigation of 9/11. I think you can move public opinion in your direction with it, possibly even get a major new investigation opened and get access to more evidence. So you might want to stop making up stuff that I did not say and actually deal with the things that I do say.
As an affirmation of my own Cynicism... A few days ago I reread the eyewitness accounts of the people present at the Pentagon crash. They ranged from Americans to foreign tourists, from ranking military employees to out of work janitors, all with ONE thing in common, THEY HAPPENED TO BE NEAR OR PASSING THE PENTAGON WHEN THEY SAW AN ....AMERICAN AIRLINES...AIRCRAFT PASS BY AND HIT THE PENTAGON. Without stating the obvious, it is difficult to abide endless discussion about the matter, it only muddies the waters that hide the real people we need to know.
The fact is, all of the actual evidence indicates there WAS a major conspiracy involved in the execution and coverup of JFK's assassination. YOUR point of view hangs on a "magic bullet" which can defy the laws of physics and do the impossible, hence the name, "magic bullet". You ALSO rely on the Warren Commission's report as your "factual investigation", where it was run by those who had enourmous conflicts of interests, such as Allen Dulles, and others who could well have been in on the conspiracy itself. The evidence indicates Oswald was buying a can of soda from a vending machine seconds before the shots were fired, where it would have been impossible for him to have ran to the window, positioned himself, and had any chance at all of hitting his target. He wouldn't have even been able to reach the window in time to take the shot. Yet you are SO eager to believe what you are TOLD to believe, you more than likely would never in a million years accept that fact. Never mind the fact Oswald "defected" to the USSR at the height of the Cold War while stationed at a Marine Corps Air Station in Japan, married a Soviet wife, then was allowed to return to the US with his wife, while being PAID by the State Department to do so. Never mind the fact that Oswald was intricately connected to the CIA, and that there were MANY such individuals involved in the events which led up to that fateful day in Dallas. Oh no, any deviation from the Warren Commission report is akin to Bigfoot marrying Elvis on a UFO. Yeah right.
What evidence is there that 9/11 was perpetrated by the 19 named individuals? Hint: Some of them are still alive and well, and have been reported as such in the world press. The manuevers performed by the aircraft that day could NOT have been performed by somebody who never flew a jet in their lives, yet NONE of them had ever flown a jet, and not one of them was even a mediocre pilot.
The infamous 16' hole that some Truthers have made so much of is a goofball theory (peddled by con-men who know better IMO) and is one of these various MIHOP "theories" that is completely incredible outside the circles of the most gullible and conspiracy-minded Truthers. They create the impression that the 16' hole is in the outside wall of the Pentagon when it is actually a hole left several sections inside the Pentagon and the entire outer facade was demolished. Only a con-man could peddle this crap. But libmedia uses this to discredit all those who are dissatisfied with the 9/11 investigations, whether they call themselves Truthers or not. And that is many, perhaps a majority, of Americans who are dissatisfied with the completeness of the 9/11 Commission. One rapidly tires of "debating" people this stupid or gullible. Then they call you names, an "unbeliever" found like a snake in their midst. It actually becomes so comical you can't actually stay mad at them. This is why I normally don't even enter 9/11 threads but I recently made the mistake of making some comment when one of the Truthers had to drag a goofy pet theory onto a completely unrelated thread and now they keep dragging me to these threads. All that said, I don't believe for one second that we ever got anything like a full investigation of 9/11 and a proper explanation. And the fact that we didn't when the gooberment will spend millions on studies to find out how many college men wank off or investigating the sex life of Brazilian beetles or billions on Israel, fake "AIDS" in Africa, global hotting "science", etc. makes it clear that there was something that they definitely do not want us to know. It smells, big time. A stench even bigger than the laughable Warren Commission report.
I read a lot of the truth posts, comment on few or none, nothing to be gained by doing so. Absurdity is a lost cause on many.
BULLSHIT. Few if any actually saw anything hit the Pentagon, although many saw SOMETHING in the way of an aircraft pass over them or nearby, and many saw the aftermath. Fact is, there are TWO sets of witnesses. One group places the aircraft's approach from south of the nearby Citgo station, this is the official story's approach path. Thing is, the SECOND group of witnesses place the approach NORTH of the Citgo station. This group includes two Pentagon police officers, both of which were at two separate locations near the Citgo station that morning. This means there had to have been TWO aircraft which witnesses identified as Flight 77. At least one of them didn't hit the building, that much is obvious. As far as the accuracy of the "eye witness" testimony, one so-called witness stated that the plane's wing hit the ground and it tumbled into the Pentagon. No such thing happened, since there were no marks on the lawn and the damage to the Pentagon would be consistent with the flight path of an object traveling nose first. If it had tumbled, it would have exploded and broken up on the lawn and not penetrated the building. In fact, early reports indicate "no plane hit" the Pentagon...
You and TC live by that motto apparently, thing is, it's self fullfulling in both your cases.
on the morning of September 11'th, 2001 I heard a radio report right after the pentagon was hit. They let an alleged eye-witness talk for I think 30 seconds or so and that was very unusual so it caught my attention. This guy described how the commercial passenger jet was flying along and it was like the pilot saw the pentagon late and started diving for it. and to hit the pentagon he turned so that one wing-tip went down to the ground and the other up in the air, he actually said it was almost perpendicular to the ground. and he said it hit the pentagon like that. This was an elaborate description and it does not match the other 'eye-witness' versions. and this is what they fed us right after it happened. why would they do this? Because they expected that the hole in the pentagon would be narrow and they needed an explanation as to why the hole was not the full width of the jet's wings. But this plan went bad because for at least a few minutes the hole in the pentagon was only on the first & second floors. All the people on the first & second floors at point of impact were killed. the people above all lived. But within a few minutes the 3'rd, 4'th & 5'th floors collapsed. They expected all 5 floors to collapse right after impact and it did not happen. So their explanation didn't work and that is why we never heard it again. I don't put much stock in eye-witness reports in this case. because this is an intelligence operation. They can put up lots of eye-witness reports with people who work for the intelligence people. It means nothing. But the hole in the building means everything. That can't be faked. The hole was not wide enough for a commercial passenger jet. Therefore, it was not a commercial passenger jet. We should also remember that just 1-2 days prior Secretary Rumsfeld had given a press conference about the missing trillions of dollars. The accountants on the 2'nd floor were agitating and basically forced him into it. Then they were killed.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
One other thing. The impact area of the Pentagon is not wide enough to fit the wings. Where the wings would have hit the building there are unbroken windows, and no evidence of fire. If an actual 757 had hit the building, the wings would have exploded upon impact since that is where the fuel is stored, and there would have been a massive jet fuel fire on both sides of the entry hole. Nothing like that happened. Note that the windows in the left side of the image are still intact... that last photo you put up and your explanation more or less nails it. proof that the government/media's conspiracy theory on this is false. a photo won't lie. but an eye-witness will. a photo can be faked. but ordinary people and journalists took these photos. The photos don't match the official story. who you going to trust? The government/mass media - or your lying eyes?
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
In any major black op there are multiple important goals. The missing trillions is certainly one of those things that needed to go away, along with the SEC documents and evidence related to the Enron and Global Crossing investigations that were stored in WTC7. Silverstein was looking for a way out of the WTC as the towers were loaded with asbestos and were loosing money, and to strip them of the asbestos would have cost more money than they were worth. How tidy of a solution could he ask for, being that he walked away with billions of dollars in insurance money after the attacks. The "War on Terror", the invasion of Afghanistan in order to secure it for the Tran-Afghan pipeline, and the take over of Iraq were also major bennies for those on the receiving end of the gravy train. The "Patriot Act" was sitting and waiting for this very sort of thing. This was yet another important goal for the perps, in that they can now violate the safeguards incorporated in the US Constitution with impunity, all in the name of "keeping us safe".. Yep, I really have to wonder about those who believe 19 angry arabs did all this because they "hated our freedoms".
you're 100% right.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Anyway, I never said anything about WTC 7 falling because of unfought fires. I challenge you to find any remark I've made to that effect. I have said steadfastly that WTC 7 is the Truthers' strongest case, I have said that they should pursue that relentlessly because that is the weakest point in the supposed government investigation of 9/11. I think you can move public opinion in your direction with it, possibly even get a major new investigation opened and get access to more evidence. So you might want to stop making up stuff that I did not say and actually deal with the things that I do say. I did include the fireboat that was retired until it was brought out of retirement by those who bought it -- the Harvey. Glad you liked the report. You might want to take your own advice and stop making up stuff that I did not say and actually deal with the things that I do say. I said if you think WTC 7 fell from unfought fires, what's your explanation for that -- in light of the 3 fireboats on duty in the area. If you don't think it fell so and likely fell due to a controlled demolition of some sort, say what you think or just skip over the aspect I was focusing on about the fireboats so as to eliminate the broken water lines excuse from the downpour of lies we've been wading through to find the Truth. WTC 7 might be our strongest case but there's way more than that which needs to be investigated -- and regardless of opinions that it's kooky of us to multitask in areas of research that don't meet your standards of approval or whoever's.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Not only is the hole too small and the damage inconsistant with a 757 impacting that area of the building, but the fact is, even a professional pilot couldn't have flown a 757 at 500+ mph inches off the ground while keeping the wings straight and nose level. The idiot who supposedly did this impossible feat couldn't even land a single engine propeller driven airplane at normal landing speed, never mind skim the Pentagon lawn with a multi-engine jumbo jet at it's max speed, all without even scraping the lawn. Ground effect causes the plane to experience increased lift and would have forced the plane to climb. The only way to fight it is to decelerate to landing speed and point the nose down, yet the plane was flying over 500 mph and the nose was level, since if the nose had been down it would have left a crater at the wall, and the plane would have done a flip and broken up outside the Pentagon.
I think your analysis is very excellent. The pilots simply don't have the ability to put a 757 into the 1'st floor after flying parallel to the ground as described. and if you look at the last picture you put up, it shows the uncomfortable truth that originally right after impact in the first 30 seconds, the 2'nd floor hadn't even fallen down yet. and the opening was truly on the first floor only. they sent a missile into the first floor and it blew up. thats what happened. The passenger jet was diverted to Ohio and the people were taken, never to be seen again. Ohio local media reported on this story back when it happened.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
One other interesting aspect of this image can be seen to the left of the car. Notice how the fence is collapsed OUTWARDS rather than INWARDS. If a wing had taken that fence down, the fence would have been knocked down TOWARDS the Pentagon wall, not AWAY from it.
They create the impression that the 16' hole is in the outside wall of the Pentagon when it is actually a hole left several sections inside the Pentagon and the entire outer facade was demolished. Only a con-man could peddle this crap. But libmedia uses this to discredit all those who are dissatisfied with the 9/11 investigations, whether they call themselves Truthers or not. And that is many, perhaps a majority, of Americans who are dissatisfied with the completeness of the 9/11 Commission. One rapidly tires of "debating" people this stupid or gullible. Then they call you names, an "unbeliever" found like a snake in their midst. It actually becomes so comical you can't actually stay mad at them. This is why I normally don't even enter 9/11 threads but I recently made the mistake of making some comment when one of the Truthers had to drag a goofy pet theory onto a completely unrelated thread and now they keep dragging me to these threads. All that said, I don't believe for one second that we ever got anything like a full investigation of 9/11 and a proper explanation. And the fact that we didn't when the gooberment will spend millions on studies to find out how many college men wank off or investigating the sex life of Brazilian beetles or billions on Israel, fake "AIDS" in Africa, global hotting "science", etc. makes it clear that there was something that they definitely do not want us to know. It smells, big time. A stench even bigger than the laughable Warren Commission report. Oh, the irony...
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
lol hey, good to see you here :-)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
What what? Geez Eric. Yeah. Here. On the board. lol
I was just saying hello and posting that link in one post. Killing two birds with one stone... Looks like a good site for anyone who wants to read it.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
that is a very excellent link.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Glad you like it. This one's interesting too, if you haven't seen it yet: Out.
Evidence? The video of it falling is evidence in itself you dweeb! Not to mention the nano-thermite found on the remains of the steel. What more evidence does your little brain need? An admission from the Mossad that they did it? Get lost you loser.
God is always good!
I love shoving a stick into a hornets nest. hehehehehehehehehehehe Christine will give me hell for it. The results and insults are ALWAYS PREDICTABLE. hehehehehe Merrily, merrily on my way. hehehehe
Not that I want to discuss it in detail but I've long mused that it would be quite possible for a single aircraft electronics technician familiar with the autopilot-GPS systems to hack out a program that could be uploaded into the aircraft systems by a terrorist in only a few moments (while an unskilled pilot held the stick steady in flight while safely thousands of feet in the air) and you could program the aircraft to fly quite precisely to its target, no expert human terminal guidance would be required. None. Hackers aren't that hard to find. These aircraft systems don't have a fraction of the security put into an iPad/iPhone/iPod or an Xbox or a PS3 yet the hackers manage to break those quite routinely despite the fact that they are protected against hacking by good hardware design and encryption keys in excess of 1024 bits. Even the original Xbox had 1024-bit encryption. Yet, despite the obvious facts about how you could reprogram the very sophisticated and capable guidance systems, Truthers insist on ranting endlessly that is isn't possible for those pilots to fly, especially the terminal phase, of these attacks. Yet there is another ready explanation: hacked guidance systems. They could have carried an ordinary device like a laptop or a cellphone or a even a calculator to do this. Recently, the PS3 was finally broken by the hackers who discovered that they could build a USB device with its own microcontroller that could be plugged into the USB port on the front of the PS3. This controller exploits the fact that, at boot time, the PS3 is vulnerable to its USB port which can (essentially) seize control of the PS3 and defeat all its other formidable protections against hacking. After they demonstrated the USB device and started selling them all over the world, they found other ways to do the same thing, including this technique they came up with last week to use a TI-84 calculator with a USB cable to hack their PS3's. (These are people who won't be happy until they can use a toaster to reprogram their PS3 and their cellphones.) And if you have 1.5B people and their talents to draw on, you have a lot of clever hackers and engineers. Then all you need is just one device to hack, even if it is in a cave in Af-Pak too. Then they take the cockpit and hold the stick steady while they reprogram the plane's autopilot and enable it to start it flying toward its destination. This way, you could make an airliner behave just like a missile. You could program it the autopilot to guide the plane into the Pentagon only a few feet off the ground, just as the video tapes (obtained by FOIA requests in 2006) showed the plane hitting the building. But of course, such obviously plausible ideas are not in vogue. Can't compete with nano-thermite, UFO technology, dark matter, antigravity, energy weapons and whatever new genius idea some Truther is peddling this week. And gooberment naturally would not this revealed but it would lead people to (rightly) question the security of all our vital systems from health care to the national power grid to our defense networks and all the rest. So one oft-debated aspect of 9/11 can be readily explained (including the gooberment's motivation for suppressing such disturbing information). In fact, the DIA is operating in suppressing all copies of this new book in exactly the way you would expect. I think the gooberment prefers us to think they're evil and/or LIHOPpy or MIHOPpy than realize just how incompetent they really are. Sorry I didn't hit Post, wrote this a couple of hours back but got called to lunch and autumn chores.
So do you at least admit the official story is a lie? If it's a lie, then what IS the truth, and why aren't we being told what that truth is? Why is there a massive disinformation campaign, such as blaming people who are still alive as being onboard those aircraft and committing suicide attacks? The physical evidence alone nullifies much of the "official story", yet that very evidence is called "conspiracy theory", where it's not a theory, it's a fact.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Problem with that theory is several fold. First off, the NTSB reports that the autopilot was turned off as Flight 77 approached Washington DC. Secondly, it is not obvious HOW to enable or disable autopilot, it is a function of the flight management computer. Hani Hanjour, the alleged "pilot", never trained on a 757 simulator, nor was he even capable of flying a Cessna, let alone a multi-engine jumbo jet. Finally, not even a highly trained professional pilot can negate the laws of physics and aerodynamics, and not only did the plane fly too low at too high of a speed to be able to hit the Pentagon nose first and flying level, but there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon since the windows aren't broken where the wings would have struck at 500+ mph. My hypothesis includes the following theories; a) The crews and passengers of all "hijacked" aircraft were subdued and/or neutralized with chemical agents such as nerve gas pumped into the ventilation systems. b) The planes were taken over by remote control, as you suggest. c) Regardless of whether the actual "hijacked" planes struck the World Trade Center towers, or some other specially equipped aircraft made to LOOK like those hijacked planes, they weren't being flown by "angry arabs", some of whom are still alive to this day. d) Whatever struck the Pentagon was NOT a 757, thus NOT Flight 77. What it comes down to is that the "official" story is pure BS, and the media as well as the government are complicit in the ONGOING coverup.
If you can accept that premise, then what follows is a step into "truther" land, whether you want to take that step or not. There is the philosophical difference. I require evidence to accept these theories, some of which are ludicrous. Some of the rest of you simply say the offered explanation is ludicrous therefore you can just make up shit, however ridiculous. You have to have a standard for evidence, for falsifiability. If you abandon that, you end up with a cause but no science to back. This happens over and over in fields like anthropology or sociology or climatology (global hotting) or evolution. If your beliefs cannot be falsified or proven by evidence, you have a religion, not science. I recommend reading the science philosopher, Karl Popper, who makes it quite clear what is and is not science based on the sound standard of empirical falsifiability. If you don't understand the difference, you can never convince intelligent modern people that your ideas are valid. This is one reason why the global hotting scammers failed. Fundamentally flawed and unfalsifiable "science". You have to have replicable evidence, plausibility, elimination of alternative explanations, etc. And most of all, you must discard theories once they are proven false (a key sign of scamming). Otherwise, you end up with something like a religious belief, not science. Hell, you guys should love Popper, brilliant man who was the son of ex-Jewish Christian parents.
I admit ONLY to having a lot of fun with wud and the others that have a sense of humor. If he complains to Christine I will be banned and a tin can tied to my tail.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Now there is the usefulness of that event. One more step to getting the people to accept the yoke, all in the name of security.
That was never an "official" video. It was not obtained through the FOIA, it was supposedly "leaked". It is obvious that it's a CGI animation, in that there is no debris being scattered into the air such as a real impact would have caused. Also, the video from those cameras which WOULD have captured the actual approach of the aircraft have never been released. Here's the viewpoint THOSE cameras would have had... The autopilot or another hackable system could be hacked for this. But he could have held the stick while the autopilot and one or more flight control computers were reprogrammed. These devices undoubtedly use solid-state memory for their OS (flashable memory) like your computer or cellphone do. But a reprogrammed autopilot could certainly do so. These planes have exceptionally sophisticated autopilot systems and the flight characteristics of these aircraft are extremely well-documented. Again, some of this would require access to internal data from the aircraft manufacturer but much of it could be computed manually or drawn from sources at maintenance depots. I have considered this (or just causing the cabin pressure and emergency air supply to fail, smothering the crew and passengers and possibly even the hijackers as well. The problem is that you probably want the terrorist with minimal piloting skills to remain alive to the last moment so he could re-target the aircraft to a very large and impressive target if he realized the hacked autopilot could not hit the target accurately. And then you would have to fake the cell phone calls from the passengers and so on. No, it gets too complicated, not plausible. Not remotely. Hacked with a portable kit, maybe in a cellphone or iPod, carried onboard by the terrorists. Prove it. Produce these terrorists. Not vague rumors or scanty and unsubstantiated reports from goofball newspapers in the Third World. I require evidence when you make these claims. And since you guys have already discredited yourselves with these claims so many times already, don't post 20 of your crappy homemade YouTubes and then get mad because I won't give you hours of my life just to view the same bilge you've tried to pawn off for years. I believe the evidence supports that it was Flight 77. I've read all these objections that it wasn't a 757 and I find them ridiculous. Moreover, you ignore that these airliners could be autopiloted with high reliability so why would you send a missile that you would have to risk wouldn't pass muster as a fake airliner when you could just send the airliner? You'd have to kill or disappear the passengers or crew anyway and you'd have to take a chance that even if flying under radar, some pilot or bystander would notice you flying or landing that 757 at an airbase or crashing it into a lake or whatever and you'd still have to obliterate the evidence. It makes no sense at all, not that that bothers most Truthers a bit. Some of you don't realize that when you mix plausible or possible explanations and alternative theories with wild conspiracy theories that make no sense, it discredits even the questions raised that are valid. This is the kind of thing where you can be your own worst enemy when it comes to convincing people of your theories in numbers large enough to make a difference. BTW, I believe that some of the Truther celebs and leaders are con-men and are likely in the pay of FBI/CIA/etc. simply to discredit the entire Truther movement. Classic agentes provocateurs, FBI style. Very useful and flexible tactics to use against unsophisticated opponents.
I sought of doubt that. I can see the tin can part, but I don't think you'd get banned...
If these guys were such experts, they wouldn't need to even physically be on those aircraft.
I will say for the thousandth time, WTC 7 is the weak point. Very few non-Truthers, exposed to what happened, will fail to doubt the gooberment acount. Knock down that domino and the rest may fall, in much the way the global hottists collapsed once their "data" was exposed as cooked and fraudulent. Naturally, you have to discard old theories once evidence disproves them. However, we can see that that does not actually happen with Truthing. It reminds me of how often evolution or Marxist economic and historical theory were put to the evideniary test, failed utterly, and they just fluffed the theory around the edges and then pretended that now they had corrected their model. No, you have to have empirical falsifiability. You have to be able to test your theory against the evidence and abide by it. This is how real science works. I don't either. WTC 7 wasn't hit, didn't get hit by the other buildings, no credible evidence that enough flaming debris hit it, no video to show serious fires, etc. But the failure of their evidence still doesn't help us prove our own theory. Still, if you can convince enough people that the explanation is utterly ludicrous, you might force a real independent investigation into it, assuming that the real evidence has not already been destroyed.
More than likely the FMS (Flight Management Computer) is servicable from an access panel, but needs special cables tied into a test set in order to set it to maintenance mode in order to reflash the EPROMS. I highly doubt the scenario, since I don't think it's possible to reset the FMS or reprogram it while in flight.
No, an aircraft of the size and wingspan of a large airliner most certainly COULD NOT fly that low to the ground at that high of a speed and DESCEND. It would CLIMB, not DESCEND.
They wouldn't be experts or hackers. They would be carrying a preprogrammed hacking device (laptop, cellphone, calculator, iPod or even a small unclad circuit board). You could always suborn ground crew at the originating terminals to hack the flight computer and autopilot at the airport before departure. I tend to think that you would want a jihadi with very rudimentary piloting skills to steer to a really large alternative target if the hacked autopilot couldn't get the job done. This is important because you would know that security would get much tighter following an attack and you would not get such an easy chance at such an attack ever again.
No need to do so if the actual planes struck their targets, since everything could be done by remote control. It's possible however that certain assets onboard the aircraft donned masks on cue, and flew the aircraft to remote locations, disposing of the passengers, if OTHER aircraft actually hit those targets.
I'm talking about the people behind the attacks. Why bother with crazy arabs if you can do it with a chip? The level of sophistation required is well beyond simple hacking of a iPod or other such device. In order to hack something, you need the real thing available in order to even attempt to find a way to hack it. I doubt they had 757's sitting on the ground at their disposal, well, not those 19 "angry arabs" at least.
Strangely enough, I believe that airliners fly that close to the ground every day. As we write, I expect a dozen or more airliners around the world are flying exactly that close to the ground without climbing. This is commonly known as "landing the aircraft". Somehow we really see this in fundamentally different ways. I believe that aircraft actually land on a routine basis. You guys do know that we gave up fly-by-wire a while back, that these are all electronic computerized systems that control the flight surfaces? Hell, even your car has computer controlled braking systems and your car throttle is a computer system. Fly-by-wire is getting to be a dated concept even in $20,000 cars.
Is the UK the "third world"?
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
This is commonly known as "landing the aircraft". Strangely enough, airliners don't land at 500 mph (which is their cruising speed at 35,000 feet). They land at about 150 to 185 mph.
The US government (or factions thereof) doesn't need physical bodies onboard an aircraft in order to fly it remotely, as can be witnessed by the existance of drones.
There IS no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon. Did the wings disappear by magic? Did "Allah" make them disappear, and make the fuel disappear as well since there were no external fires where the fuel would have splattered all over the Pentagon walls?
You need a rudimentary backup in case your hacking and programming proves inadequate in practice because you'll never again get such a good chance to attack this easily. I would be very surprised if you had 1024-bit (or greater) encryption methods and hardware protection of these systems. Industrial systems are never as state of the art as even a PS3 or Xbox or some cellphones. This is why members of Congress routinely refer to the dangers of computer systems being hacked, because these systems are often wide open. They are hackable. No box can be built that is unhackable. Period. When we start doing location-based quantum encryption, maybe we can get away from that but at present no system is totally secure. There is only "more secure" and "less secure". The rest is just applying enough brainpower and resources. It wouldn't even be very expensive to do this actually. You wouldn't need anything like that. You would only need to take an autopilot or have complete specs of it and a copy of the OS and a compatible hardware system to test it on. You'd have to fake up a set of programmable sensor inputs and such for testing the rig. Then it's just programming. If you could obtain circuit boards that were replaced by an incrementally newer version, you could easily use that as a basis for formulating an electronic attack on a new system. These kinds of industrial systems are very rarely rebuilt from the ground up; they are incrementally revised and they use fairly standard parts. Even if they use the security features in certain microcontrollers to hide their code and such, there are well-known methods using ordinary electron microscopes and lab equipment to strip away the outside of chips and read the chips' internal circuitry directly, leading to discovery of vulnerabilities, many of which are unknown to the designers of the system. Unless you make the security of the system your first and foremost and obsessive objective, you cannot hope to withstand attacks by bright engineers and hackers with equipment easily obtained for less than $25 million (I include that number for a nice high-end lab equipped for complete reverse-engineering). And, yes, you could easily build it in a cave. Recruiting the talent for such a project is probably more challenging than building the lab or getting access to specs and software for the flight systems.
True. But those cellphone conversations would be hard to fake and are a vital part of the propaganda attack on the citizens, aren't they? They could have brought a small diathermy generator onboard to jam all the cellphones. Not that hard to do and not even illegal. Yet they did not. You have to conclude that They considered it irrelevant or that they actually desired to have those cellphone calls made on the record to help maximize the propaganda value. Terrorism always has a purpose. You have to change the way people think, how they react, perhaps most important: alter their first response in the future. You should never overlook the element of mind control in terrorism. You have to condition the mental and emotional responses of the target population. This is the fundamental political objective. And this is true whether you think that "They" are 1) Mossad, 2) CIA, 3) Arab terrorists. The goal of terrorism must be constant.
You need to understand the architecture, and have intimate knowledge of the control systems. It's not something a guy living in a cave would be able to do.
The "autopilot" is essentially the heart of the Flight Management System and ties navigational inputs and flight data systems into a sophisticated AI program which sends digital and analog outputs to control systems throughout the aircraft. It's certainly not an iPod, and well beyond anything someone could hack in their cave or even their well equipped garage.
Even the FBI admitted that the cell phone calls to Solicitor Olson never occured. There was one connection attempt, with a call duration of 0 seconds. Even IF some of those calls were actually made, it is quite easy these days for a particular person's voice to be synthesized from somebody else's. It's also possible that those making the calls, the actual passengers involved, were part of the plot. It's also possible that those REPORTING the calls are lying. Fact is, cellphone calls made from an aircraft at cruising altitude back then were virtually impossible. The factors include the confusion between towers as to which one should handle the call (since an aircraft at altitude would reach more than one from the same relative distance), and the very quick transition from one tower's coverage into another's.
You have to look at who benefits, and who doesn't. It's not hard to see who DID benefit, and they certainly weren't Afghani tribesmen living off goat milk and poppies.
If your angle of descent is programmed and you have full control of air control surfaces via computer and can respond in milliseconds to the instruments, yes, you can hit the ground exactly that way. The flight control program would use GPS and a programmed descent path so that the aircraft hit the ground and the building. If you are coming in at 500mph at even a modest incline, the ground effects cannot force you back up into the air because of inertia. I find this particular item of Truth especially annoying. Believe me, you cannot simply pose arguments that end up along the lines of irresistable-force-meets-immovable-object. It really doesn't work that way in the real world; ask any engineer. If the plane is in a basic approach pattern but programmed to touch down exactly at the outside edge of the building, the speed and inertia of that huge-ass aircraft would overcome the ground effect that would try to rebuff the plane back up further from the ground. So it might rebuff the aircraft except that it hit and devastated the Pentagon before the ground effect could force it back into the air. This argument does overcome the need for a human pilot to fly an airliner below treetop level for a mile or more at 500mph. I would expect an autopilot controlling the flight would make much more sense since no pilot training program would ever try to teach even airline pilots how to fly such a big plane so fast so near the ground. You would almost have to have it under computer control or have an insanely expert and daring pilot. Ah, well, maybe I do have my own cranky little Truth going here, eh? I'm gonna go slumming for election news elsewhere. Enough Truth for one day.
I find the evidence for those calls lacking and his own accounts kept shifting, making me think he was an incredibly overrated attorney or he would grasp the importance of a credible and unvarying account. I think he made it up for whatever reason, most likely vanity. I never liked or trusted him at all, even prior to 9/11. And his recent gay-marriage case just confirms how dishonest I consider him to be. I'm willing to accept some of the calls were made on the NYC planes. I don't find the cellphone calls make or break the case for or against the gooberment account of 9/11. As I said, there is a distinct propaganda value to be achieved by allowing this kind of personalized account, something that grips people emotionally. It is, for instance, far more psychologically effective than just blowing up a building with explosives. It creates a much more dramatic and participative drama for the target population. You have to think about what They (whoever they are) were trying to accomplish, what terrorism will always seek to accomplish if it is rationally conceived as a political tactic.
If your angle of descent is programmed and you have full control of air control surfaces via computer and can respond in milliseconds to the instruments, yes, you can hit the ground exactly that way. Prove it. Show me the math and the physics. Why go through this elaborate side show with Hanjour at various flight schools, pretending he could fly a plane? The fact is, you apparently fail to understand the complexity of programming such a feat for ONE aircraft, never mind FIVE separate aircraft. If anything, the most sophistication involved was a complete takeover of the flight systems by a remote operations center, with a human pilot actually flying the aircraft remotely, as is currently done with drones. Cruise missiles CAN be programmed to hit their targets on their own, but their flight systems are a LOT less complicated than that of an airliner's. What it involves is a 3D map of the actual terrain, and the required altitude and course to fly to hit that target. The 9/11 aircraft did not hug the ground as a cruise missle would have to do, they flew like normal aircraft till they approached their desinations, THEN flew relatively low to the ground (the Pentagon aircraft flew at treetop level on it's approach). Do you seriously believe "terrorists" using boxcutters to subdue the crew and passengers would have that degree of sophistication, where the actual flight was controlled by hacked software at a level of complexity equal to or beyond that of which is available to the US government?
Thing is, for the plane to descend it would have to lose airspeed, yet it increased airspeed at the beginning of the approach while maintaining the same relative altitude, then somehow descended without losing airspeed or pointing the nose down. That's pretty much impossible for an airliner, but not impossible for a cruise missile painted to LOOK like an airliner.
What if you have suborned some Muzzie aircraft technicians, computer science whizzes and a few aerospace engineers? No, nothing is unhackable. I could, for instance, describe to you the integrated operation of some ordinary security interlock systems for routine satellite reception, something that has to resist serious hacking attempts. One that I was familiar with was the old dual-tuner Dtivo units. These had a PowerPC CPU, two independent programmable (and hackable) tuner chips, and a programmable MPEG decoder chip. These interlocked with the control card (HU series) which was a reflashable CPU which included features to fuse certain parts of the circuitry permanently if they desired to defeat attacks on it. Yet, I assure you this system was utterly hacked over and over. I myself worked on finding the ZKT check code from the PowerPC chip and disabling it. Ultimately, we never fully penetrated it and never did discover the Magic Number (commonly a prime number thousands of digits long, an expensive proprietary number which was embedded in the security card at the circuit level). Yet we all knew that the security system could be utterly defeated and every secret found if we ever got that number. And we knew how to do it but no one had the lab for it. Still, the unit was hacked to death despite its fundamental security remaining locked. In the original Xbox, you had signed code and an encrypted BIOS with 1024-bit encryption. Much as with the recent PS3 attacks, you simply find ways to seize control of the bus and induce buffer overruns at boot time. Once you have seized control, you can generally allow all the security mechanisms to keep running but since you are already in control, you can neuter them pretty easily. There is no such thing as unhackable. I tend to believe that anything that can ever be built can and will be hacked. But that is an article of faith, not something I can prove. It's not generally recognized but these security systems actually train people for all kinds of hacking. The list of hacked and hackable devices is quite long. As hundreds of thousands of people become technically familiar with how to hack an iPhone or a PS3 or an Xbox360, these techniques can be readily applied by competent technicians to attack almost any system, probably up to an including nuclear weapons safety interlock devices. No black box is safe from a curious persistent mind with some decent equipment.
You can keep repeating this but I don't believe you can prove it. Tell me, if you have an airliner at 20,000 feet and your pilot points the nose downward at the ground, you will hit the ground, won't you? Let's say you pin the plane into a nosedive. We can agree that you will hit the ground, there once you are below a certain altitude, say 4000-5000 feet, there is no chance you can pull out because the inertia is too great. So would it work the same if you only aimed at the ground with a 45-degree approach angle. Yes. But you could pull out of the dive a little longer. Same applies at 20-degree angle. Or 10 or 5. The real problem I have with this is that denying an airliner can hit a building in this way relies on the removal of inertia as a factor. And I do demand that Truthers aren't allowed to repeal the fundamental laws of physics. Next thing you know, they'll toss entropy on the bonfire and the whole universe will go poof. LOL. Now I am going to go follow the elections. So don't leave me 5,000 posts to catch up with.
No real election coverage yet except an unprecedented GOP turnout in Delaware. Normally, a GOP election in DE is about 20 depressed Republicans who turn out to determine who gets to lose to the Democrat (a moron like Biden). The huge turnout may indicate Dems who registered GOP to vote O'Donnell or may represent Republicans fed up with the state GOP or Republicans determined to get rid of Castle. Or all of the above. They have to stop the scammers and con-men and attention whores (and, likely, agentes provocateurs) from discrediting them with the public.
That is another piece that doesn't fit. Silverstein was bright enough, and savvy enough, as a real estate investor to not take on those two White Elephants to begin with. While he may not have been exactly in the know he was likely directed to buy the leases. Probably because he is a Sayanim. And a couple billion in insurance money buys a lot of silence. Having Silverstein take it over gets the government employees out of there and his people in. This provides easier access and people who are easier to shut up, and won't be as noticeable if they have to be given a complete "shut up".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Where's that tin can?
FormerLurker: There IS no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon. Did the wings disappear by magic? Did "Allah" make them disappear, and make the fuel disappear as well since there were no external fires where the fuel would have splattered all over the Pentagon walls? I'm going to guess that the wings folded up to shield the nose of the aircraft prior to impact there. This theory is based on my firsthand experience as a pretend plane from time to time during childhood, even though I wasn't powered by jet fuel and not much concerned about ground effects unless I ran into something in my flightpath unexpectedly. If I was going to dive backwards onto the sofa (not the Status Of Forces Agreement kind of SOFA, but the couch) such as the alleged plane at Shanksville, my "wings"/arms might fold down and in towards my side but if I was going to land face-first like the alleged plane at the Pentagon, I would be more apt to move them forward and up to cover my nose and eyes. While this is a true story, I am of course not seriously suggesting that real planes would act so. This short detour should in no way reflect negatively on other Truthers. I just figured if TooCon could go to such lengths to spell out remote control as PS3 and XBox and cellphones and X numbers of alleged Muzzie aircraft technicians without so much as addressing counter remote control measures available to our Military like F-16s and AWACS and EMP devices, why not use Game Theory to try to explain the wing anomaly at the Pentagon somehow. I thought it sounded funner than waiting much longer for TC to get to the F-16/AWACS/EMP type complexities of remote control counter- measure risks to the alleged hijackers of the Official spin.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
i've grown rather fond of the olde man. i'm stuck with him or he's stuck with me. ;P
Don't confuse us with the Official Conspiracy crowd. They're the ones who have been trying to repeal the fundamental laws of physics. Quick, tell us your theory of why WTC 7 fell. We're not getting any younger and neither is the universe just because you want to keep us all in suspense about that.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Sure, but at least you can tie a can to his tail for trying to incite a riot on another 9/11 thread?
Which thread was that, wud? Maybe I could tie a can or two to his tail for doing that. Two cans with a string connecting them could even be used as an improvised phoneline if he'd like but I think it would be more entertaining to put two-sided tape on his paws and watch him dance around to shake it off.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
By "another 9/11 thread" I meant this one, but I was totally kidding.
Believe it or not loser, the laws of Physics don't obey the Talmudic Jews. You are such a waste of time.
God is always good!
Ricky. He's going to follow the Elections. You're wasting your time. Like throwing pearls to swine. Check out the link at my tagline.
I do think no plane hit the Pentagon, but I can't agree about the twin towers. Yes, the news media did fake footage from that day, but IMO they did so not because there were no planes that hit the buildings, but because the planes that hit them were not the ones they said that hit them, but rather military planes.
God is always good!
Aluminum military planes?
While he may not have been exactly in the know he was likely directed to buy the leases. Probably because he is a Sayanim. And a couple billion in insurance money buys a lot of silence. A teacher's union oddly turned up in searches for insurance on the WTC towers but I'm still trying to figure out how he could insure leased properties for so much. If they had been leased cars, I would think the owner of them would get paid the big bucks, not a leaseholder. He owned WTC 7 but the Port Authority owned the other buildings.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
You can keep repeating this but I don't believe you can prove it. I'm repeating the reported flight characteristics of the alleged hijacked aircraft. What part of it don't you understand or comprehend? Tell me, if you have an airliner at 20,000 feet and your pilot points the nose downward at the ground, you will hit the ground, won't you? Yeah sure, so what? That's not what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11. Let's say you pin the plane into a nosedive. We can agree that you will hit the ground, there once you are below a certain altitude, say 4000-5000 feet, there is no chance you can pull out because the inertia is too great. Again, so what? Nothing to do with what we're talking about. So would it work the same if you only aimed at the ground with a 45-degree approach angle. Yes. But you could pull out of the dive a little longer. So what? Same applies at 20-degree angle. Or 10 or 5. Now you're getting ridiculous. The real problem I have with this is that denying an airliner can hit a building in this way relies on the removal of inertia as a factor. And I do demand that Truthers aren't allowed to repeal the fundamental laws of physics. Next thing you know, they'll toss entropy on the bonfire and the whole universe will go poof. LOL. Now you've gone from ridiculous to hypocritical. First off, the aircraft which is alleged to have been Flight 77 (NOBODY can tell for sure since the transponder was off and they only picked up the radar return after having somehow lost it completely from radar between Ohio and Washington), performed a sharp descending turn which many at Dulles Air Traffic Control assumed was a military aircraft by the way it manuevered. It turned AWAY from the side of the Pentagon where the high value targets were (such as Rumsfeld's office), where it could have easily DOVE into the Pentagon and exploded all over the roof, spreading flaming fuel over a good portion of the complex. It would have been INFINITELY easier to simply dive into a structure the area of 28 or so football fields, than to perform precision manuevers and line up to hit a 77 foot high wall at ground level. Yet that is what is CLAIMED to have happened. The aircraft is reported to have come out of it's final turn after having descended to tree top level, then picked up airspeed for about a mile before impacting the Pentagon. At 500 mph, the amount of time necessary to clear the trees and structures near the Pentagon would have left a fraction of a second before reaching the Pentagon itself, yet within that time it found a way to descend, overcome ground effect, and keep the nose level with the wings straight (since neither engine nor wingtip hit the lawn), and penetrate at ground level straight into the Pentagon (at an angle of course, but straight in as far as pitch). That is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. You can talk about diving from 20,000 feet all you want, yet that is NOT what happened even in terms of the OFFICIAL story, and in terms of physical damage to the Pentagon itself. That, and there was no fuel spread over the external walls as there would have been, and no damage to glass windows where wings allegedly struck them at 500+ mph. Now take your own advice and stop trying to suspend the laws of physics to make your pet theory workable.
I think TC has seen one too many episodes of 24, where the "bad guys" have infinite resources and can scoop up a nuclear weapons expert on a whim and have a nuke built for them on demand within hours, as long as they have the nuclear material. I sort of doubt airliners have USB ports that access the flight management computer for ANY reason, especially not in terms of a maintainance port which could be used to reflash the entire system, as if that were even possibile to do while in flight. As far as what the reflash would do, it'd have to introduce an entirely new application into the system, override the normal operation, and that application would need to have intimate knowledge of the existing interfaces and IO ports, and not only access them directly and correctly, but have exacting precision in how it controlled the aircraft, especially in its terminal phase. How would such an application be tested? Hell, it takes more than a few tries to get highly sophisticated missile software to function correctly, where the first few firings don't usually go well. Can you imagine some cave dwellers doing all this on their laptops while smoking hash, and getting it perfect not just for one aircraft, but for FOUR? Like I said, there is very little chance of there even BEING an accessbile interface such as USB anywhere in the cockpit, never mind the rest. Or maybe they put one in just in case a terrorist wants to reprogram the flight computer, you never know... LOL
You need access to the physical device in order to even TRY to understand it, never mind figure a way to hack it. Having an iPod in your possession allows you to try all sorts of tricks between the PC and the device itself. Having an Internet connection allows access to ANY other machine on the Internet, and the protocols are widely published. They are exploitable by those with intimate knowledge of those protocols. However, the hardware architecture of a Boeing flight management computer is NOT pubished, nor are its operating system interfaces, application programming interfaces, nor actual operational control interfaces. You'd need to basically have a 757 at your disposal, ALL the manuals for the hardware, firmware, and software, intimate knowledge of the navigational systems, flight control systems, and a guided missile program control background to achieve what you're suggesting. That's if a foreign application could even fit in memory or access the existing application in order to prevent it from doing what it normally does, and guide the aircraft as if it were a cruise missile.
Or maybe it was some Jew technicians. They DID have cameras set up to record the planes hitting the towers before the planes hit you know, and jumped for joy when they did hit.
A "reflashable CPU" eh? What would be the purpose of reflashing a CPU? How many ways of doing ANDs, ORs, ADD, SUBs, and JMPs would make a difference?
While he may not have been exactly in the know he was likely directed to buy the leases. Probably because he is a Sayanim. And a couple billion in insurance money buys a lot of silence. I'm sure Silverstein knows a great deal about what happened that day, and more than likely is on the "committee" which oversaw the attacks themselves. Besides being a major beneficiary of the attacks, he would have needed to be in on the operation in order to allow the towers to be wired up with explosives. I doubt it would have happened under his nose without his knowledge.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
I can't explain it. But I don't accept the feds' explanation at all. I don't make up crazy shit if I don't know. I say that I don't know. This actually does make it possible to learn something.
I think it will be half indy voters along with the conservative segment of the DE GOP. I expect Castle may ignore the primary and then run as a write-in. O'Donnell did exactly this in 2006 after she lost the GOP primary so she can't cry foul. If they can talk him into it, I think Castle would win as a write-in. The sheer controversy and his 40-year political relationship with voters in both parties could push him over the top as a write-in. And the RNC has nothing to lose since they know the seat is otherwise lost. NRSC took the step of cutting off any money to her. Castle conceded but refuses to make a single statement of support for her. Something is cooking, probably analysis of the election returns to determine if he has a real shot of winning as a write-in.
Many modern microcontrollers contain their own RAM and flashable "ROM". The chips often have a fusing feature so that once you update it, you can burn a "fuse" (flashable memory location) permanently which locks the ability to reprogram the CPU or read out its code. Unless you have a professional lab. You can find these CPUs with internal RAM and flash ROM and I/O ports. All the ARMs and many PICs and similar devices are available with these features. We are way past the old 6502/6800/Z80/68330/8052/80186 and other CPUs that used to be used in industrial applications but which required so much more support circuitry. A single-chip is so much more economical and reliable. 6502? Edit: forgot. 6502 used ADC, not ADD. I guess your mnemonics are ambiguous enough I can't tell which CPU(s) you studied.
A black box is a black box. And nothing is unhackable if you have a lab and the right talent. In the end, you still have the flight charactistics and physical properties of the aircraft, you would have the pilots manuals and the technical notes from the manufacturer (available at their depots), and you only have to control the throttle and the control surfaces. This is actually far far easier to program than guided missiles.
In general terms, I would say that it is a mistake to focus on who. First you demonstrate the facts don't support the gooberment explanation. Then you force a new investigation. Then you go after Them (CIA or DIA or Iran/Hezbollah or al-Qaeda or Mossad). The who of it should be ignored until the how of it is resolved. The constant government refrain that al-Qaeda is never associated with any government for any reason is suspicious. Of course, they are associated with governments, especially the Saudis. They take refuge in Wahhabist countries like Sudan and Af-Pak. So I find this idea that al-Qaeda never gets gooberment help about as suspicious as the idea that, for instance, a completely inexperienced pilot held an airliner at treetop at 500mph for miles.
I recall a number of years ago, back when GPS and automated guidance were becoming standard equipment on airliners, there was a flight in Alaska that was on autopilot and barely missed flying directly into a mountain. The news reported that that error in the programming had been updated on all planes flying in the area. They made it clear that it was an internal programming error. To do this, you have to be able to reflash the computers. You know, you even reflash various computerized subsystems on combines and tractors and big sprayers. You can press buttons in sequence and a hex monitor appears on the instrument readout and you can enter data or code in hex. I know some JD guys and they often use factory manual tricks to, for instance, force a tractor with a bad transmission to go into gear so they can get it out of the field and onto a truck to go to the JD dealer for repair. This kind of technology is very very common. Aircraft are not fundamentally different. In addition, you need a capability of fixing any computer-related problem in an aircraft quickly after a crash or near-miss.
I have always assumed the Pentagon has defenses against such an attack, the same way the WH does and many military bases. So only an attack coming in below radar would be expected to succeed. Now who is being silly. Assuming "treetop" is less than 50 feet, executing a sharp turn would put the wings hitting trees or buildings as you turn the plane since the wing would dip downward, the sharper the turn the more it dips. You also have an absolute confidence in these instruments which are not necessarily designed to be at their most accurate at ground level. Certainly radar gets flaky near the ground. And if it was a missile, how did they make the plane "disappear"? How did they keep people from seeing it pass at treetop? Where did they land it? How did they hide it? Etc.? I think my explanations, imperfect as they are, are still more plausible than what you're offering. But relying on the data we have at this point may be a mistake. We don't have any kind of independent study of the data and lack some information on the systems themselves under extreme conditions like flying at such high speed so near the ground.
So then it couldn't have been a 757.
Where did it "land"? Ask those who would know. You might start with Cheney, then perhaps Rumsfeld. I'm sure they'll fill you in if you simply ask them. First off, as I earlier reported, there were apparently TWO aircraft. One took a southerly approach, which is the "official" flight path, and other a more northerly approach, which credibile witnesses state was in fact an American Airlines 757. It's highly probable that the drone (more than likely painted like an AA jet) is what took the southerly route, and is what impacted the Pentagon. Another aircraft, which could well have been Flight 77, approached at the same time and flew OVER the Pentagon as the other object impacted, hiding behind the smoke caused by that impact.
Your explanations rely on magical thinking, where laws of physics are violated, and actual evidence is either tossed out or ignored. The wings and fuel disappeared in order for your story to make sense, and a gang of cave dwellers took an iPod, plugged it into the cockpit, and made it fly like a cruise missile. Oh, and the people who performed these superhuman feats rose from the dead, since at least some of them are still alive. If you want to read what a real pilot and aeronautical engineer has to say about all this, read the following link... 9/11-The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training
Or the instruments and local radar aren't designed for such accuracy at such a low level over a metro area. I would also want to see an expert independent evaluation of the data including the flight recorders and the ground radar readings from the plane. There are also eyewitnesses who say they saw the plane. I prefer my hacked autopilot account primarily because it eliminates the need for an untrained pilot to perform expert flight maneuvers at treetop but does not require a substitute missile and the disposal of the 757 and its crew (and keeping any witnesses from seeing or instruments from recording what really happened to the plane and people after the missile was substituted along the flight path).
So what happened to the wings and the fuel? Did Allah make them disappear?
The flight path is described as follows from the author of the link I just gave you; The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O’Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, “The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.” (http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=4084) And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him. But even that wasn’t good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his “missile” was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon—and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men’s lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway (there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing). on top of all the other impossible things about the official story we're supposed to believe that an inexperienced person piloted that plane. the guy was not a professional pilot and had no real experience even landing a jet like this big passenger jet. and he performs maneuvers that experienced pilots say are nearly impossible.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
There are conflicting reports as to the altitude of the aircraft when it began the 270 degree turn. Many say 7000 feet, where the author of the article I linked assumed ground level. It would of course be more likely that it was at 7000 feet. do you really believe that the forces in government that did this sept 11'th crime can't come up with eye-witnesses to speak? They can come up with witnesses including the air traffic controllers, but the physical evidence from the crash aftermath indicates that their story is a lie.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Interesting info. It does not preclude my scenario. And my explanation of a hacked autopilot is still far more conceivable than untrained pilots performing such maneuvers. With full control over the plane's control surfaces on a millisecond basis, one could cause a crash by altering the flight characteristics in the last few tenths of a second prior to impact. Again, this is the kind of thing that no aircraft designer would ever test for because they would never expect any airliner to be flown in this way. My explanation still beats the expert-caveman-pilot scenario even if you don't happen to care for it.
do you really think that a new 'independent' study group will be able to put a magnifying glass up to the photos and magically find the wreckage from the passenger jet. Look at the pictures man, the wreckage is not there. You don't need an 'independent' study to look at this. You should trust your own eyes. also, you should be able to comprehend that the ruling regime including our government and mass media both have lied to us and acted maliciously against us at Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City and elsewhere. The government lies, acts maliciously with extreme harm to our people, the media lies and covers up. this is their pattern of behavior over time. and that pattern means nothing to you? You still follow them? at some point you have to ask yourself if you are being righteously patriotic or stupidly psychotic?
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
It would of course be more likely that it was at 7000 feet. Again, underlining my point about just how reliable some of this data really is. I am especially suspicious of radar and flight recorder data at treetop. No way did they design their system primarily for that situation since the designers will generally assume that the plane is already lost if it is that close to the ground and not over a runway landing at the proper speed. For just one example, how often have they tested these airliners flying that low to the ground, that fast, and with their landing gear up? I don't think they do that much if at all, though they might simulate it on computers or in a wind tunnel. Can your Truth pilots say they know that much about flying a plane at 500mph with the gear up at treetop? I know they are really well-trained but I would be very surprised if that is a focus of their training. That would be an example of the kind of thing that would get them fired.
Can't I be both rigtheously patriotic and stupidly psychotic at the same time? I'm willing to try, just for you, Red. And you probably wonder why your former friends and relatives feverishly try to change the subject if you start talking about That Day.
Your "hacked autopilot" is about as likely as Hanjour being blessed by Allah with the superhuman power to fly the aircraft better than a pro, for the host of reasons I've already gone over. It still doesn't explain the following, even if it were possible; A) The aircraft could not have descended to ground level from 50 feet high in a fraction of a second while maintaining a neutral pitch (ie. keeping the nose level). B) The section of the Pentagon where the left wing should have impacted still had intact glass windows, and no external fuel fire from the exploding fuel tank located inside the wing. C) You have no explanation for the second aircraft witnessed by credible witnesses, including two Pentagon police officers. Even IF an instant descent to the correct altitude were possible, the plane would not have STOPPED descending (due to inertia) quick enough to avoid crashing into the Pentagon lawn.
Well, that has been my point! The hacked autopilot eliminates the need for the Geico Caveman flying an airliner at treetop. It's not a perfect explanation but it eliminates at least some of the problems with the official account.
you're right about that. but is it so easy to believe that a pilot in a remote location could put the plane inches off the ground and put it into the 1'st floor like that. Even from a remote location - a pretty daring way to fly. Planes jump up and down by themselves when coming in for a landing. it would be so easy to crash if they tried what they allegedly did. Many people are like you - they do not trust the official version, but they don't buy the ideas that government did this themselves. I think it was an inside job. the people who rule us are evil. they are not incompetent, they are evil. they do bad things to us and to others on purpose.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
It left a scar on the lawn. The plane hit the ground and bounced, the collapsing plane exploding as its wreckage hit the building between the first and second floors. And the plane did, as I've said, penetrate all five rings. In this section of the Pentagon, renovations were five days from completion for its new steel underframe, a project which had been underway for the entire Pentagon since the mid-Nineties. The Pentagon wasn't too well built and was sort of a rush job originally and they had to do something to reinforce the entire structure. Perhaps you already know about the renovation project.
The accounts of tree top level altitude are from various witnesses. What is certain is that Dulles Air Traffic control located a stray blip on their radar and they assumed it was the airliner which disappeared from radar somewhere over Ohio. What is also fairly certain is the flight path it took once visible on radar indicates it made a rapidly descending 270 degree turn, starting at 7000 feet, and ending up near ground level.
Pure bullshit on your part. Even the government doesn't make that claim. The entry point is a clean hit, and there is NO scaring of the lawn AT ALL. If the plane had hit the lawn, it would have blown up on the lawn and never penetrated the building. It would have sprayed burning jet fuel EVERYWHERE, including the lawn itself. You are desparate to keep your story from falling apart aren't you.
I don't think you could remotely pilot it that way. A human being cannot react in a few milliseconds. Even a computer, though fast enough, is hard to program. Admittedly, it would be difficult to do the hacked thing but I find it far more plausible and doable than the Geico caveman or a remote piloting job. Remote piloting would require several milliseconds of lag, time you just don't have. The pilots who argue against the Caveman do make a good case against human piloting but not machine control. I'll readily admit my explanation still has some problems. Just not nearly as many as the Caveman.
You are thinking as if this thing was a solid chunk of lead, which not only can fly like a needle in a hurricane, perform like a cruise missle and dart about like a mosquito, but it can crash into the lawn, bounce (at over 500 mph), shoot directly into the first floor of the Pentagon, penetrating a blast proof wall, and pierce through 5 separate rings of the building. Did you know that aircraft are basically egg shells made of aluminum? Do you know what happens to an egg when you throw it into a lawn? Do you know what happens if you throw that egg into a brick wall?
I would say a remote takeover of the flight SYSTEMS is MUCH more likely, with human guidance on approach, perhaps computer assist on terminal approach. THAT, or it was NOT Flight 77 to begin with, it was some sort of REAL missile, and the REAL Flight 77 WAS in fact taken over by remote control and flown somewhere else, with the passengers and crew neatly disposed of. Perhaps SOME were in fact in on it, who knows.
Only if I allow you to repeal inertia. The wings might have remained intact enough to hold up after the bounce until they hit the steel-reinforced concrete (steel reinforcement was five days from completion supposedly). This is consistent with reports that the plane flew at 500mph but only hit the building at 350mph. The "bounce" sucked 150mph out of its inertia but the plane would be coming apart in the milliseconds between the "bounce" and the impact. Of course, my hacked autopilot would alter the flight configuration of the control surfaces to drop the plane at the edge of the Pentagon. Since it could not be so precise at that speed, you had the "bounce" with the wreckage rising to hit between the first and second floor as the primary impact. Again, this isn't a perfect explanation but it does beat the hell out of the Caveman.
You can "bounce" an egg off the ground, just like skipping a stone on water. We had a lot of chickens when I was a kid so I can speak from personal experience. Actually, an egg skipping off the ground is probably a much more durable object than an airliner at 500mph.
While he may not have been exactly in the know he was likely directed to buy the leases. Probably because he is a Sayanim. And a couple billion in insurance money buys a lot of silence. I'm sure Silverstein knows a great deal about what happened that day, and more than likely is on the "committee" which oversaw the attacks themselves. Besides being a major beneficiary of the attacks, he would have needed to be in on the operation in order to allow the towers to be wired up with explosives. I doubt it would have happened under his nose without his knowledge. Exactly. When you reconstruct what had to have gone on for the towers, and "7", to be brought down then you have to deduce and examine what kind of planning and organizing had to occur. So, one of the key problems would be access to the buildings and no snoopy Port Authority employees wondering who all those strange "maintenance men" were? And that is likely one of the covers used to wire "the job". I listened to a guest on Rense one night who suggested as much (might have been either Jim Marrs or Jay Weidner). The upshot being, and it makes sense when you think about it, who really pays attention to maintenance men running around a building? They're part of the scenery and certainly the self important yuppies and other "suits" are not going to pay much mind to the "little people". So, it would seem key to have somebody in charge of the buildings who would not ask the wrong right questions. Thus "Lucky Larry", likely already a Sayanim, gets tagged to buy the leases on the White Elephants with the knowledge that he would not be stuck with them and would get a big payday out of the deal. He would not even have to be privy to all of the details as he just needs to know his own compartmentalized piece of the operation, and not to ask questions. That would also explain how he knew bldg. 7 was already wired and it was just a matter of setting off the charges to "pull" the building. How much he knew is a question mark but he did have to have some level of knowledge of the general plan so that he would cooperate with giving passes to the "maintenance men".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Your video was taken well before any investigation when it was still smoldering. It took hours for it to cool enough for any real inspection to occur. Still, not too terrible a video. Then you (not me) have to start arguing with the Truther pilots who don't believe in the Caveman pilot. I'll again stay with hacked autopilot, at least a device fast enough to react in the milliseconds required over the seconds that plane flew so low before impact.
The plane was not made of lead, nor was it made of rubber. Any impact with the lawn where the momentum of the plane would have been abruptly stopped would have resulted in the wings being ripped off and tumbling into the building, and would have left a HUGE gash in the lawn itself, with fireballs of fuel burning everywhere between the point of impact and the Pentagon wall. It most certainly wouldn't have had the ability to penetrate the first wall, never mind the rings. There was no gash, no scratch, and no fuel spread all over the lawn. You are grasping at straws here, going BEYOND the evidence and fabricating your own imaginary evidence, where none exist. BTW, you are also flat out wrong concerning the number of rings penetrated. It appears only the first ring was penetrated, the 2nd was apparently untouched, but the third had an exit hole, go figure... There is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon. There is no jet fuel on the exterior walls, and the windows aren't broken where the left wing would have hit. Additionally, your claims concerning the aircraft "bouncing" off the lawn are pure BS, it DID NOT HAPPEN.
Put up a video on YouTube of you bouncing an egg off the ground, I'd like to see it done.
Actually, I assume the bounce could cause the wings to start folding up.
I don't have any videos like that. I do have a few of using an egg as a golf ball and as a baseball in fast-pitch. Would those do? Yes, you can bounce an egg off buffalo grass.
I'd say it'd be next to impossible for "19 angry arab hijackers" (some of whom are still alive) to have been able to reprogram the flight management computer to do what you suggest. It would NOT be impossible for a covert maintenance team to put in a few extra chips into the system, giving total control to the aircraft to whomever possessed the technology to do that sort of thing. So far, only the US government has the ability to fly airliners remotely. That, and the fact Flight 77 is more than likely NOT what hit the Pentagon points to something smaller, faster, and more agile, being the real culprit. A cruise missile, or modified fighter jet seem much more plausible than what you or the media are trying to sell. Again, the lack of fuel on the exterior walls of the Pentagon, along with the unbroken glass windows where the wing would have shattered them as it struck the building, are prime factors in eliminating the possibility of a 757 having struck the Pentagon. Also, the nearby fence was pushed AWAY from the Pentagon, not TOWARDS it as it would have been if it had been knocked down by a wing. Observe the fence on the ground to the left of the car in the following image. Sure, post the links.
Fuel would have gushed out and ignited. Where's the gash, and where's the fires on the lawn?
BTW, can you tell me how a 757 would fit into that little hole on the first floor? Here's an even better picture which wud has already posted a few times. How do you fit a 757 into that hole? Well, I have been told many times that I am quite expert at getting some big thing in a little tiny hole but that is a story for another time. :) I think this picture is far clearer. I object to the way Truthers use some of these pictures to try to lead people to what I consider to be false conclusions. And I think this has been done deliberately by con-men.
I also like this one for obvious reasons.
to think that the boeing jet could go through the little opening you'd have to think that each window was 75 feet wide. a missile hit the pentagon, but it exploded after going in. that is why it killed everyone on the first and second floors in that area. based on the evidence, this is the only possible answer. regarding the 'witnesses' - they are just intelligence assets.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Perhaps you read yesterday, in Europe, the pilot arrested for flying for the airlines without a license???? ALL HE EVER HAD FOR TRAINING WAS IN SMALL SINGLE ENGINE AIRCRAFT. Cannot be done, right????
Yes, can be done with aptitude, skills and training. Our "hijackers" OTOH were remarkably deficient in all of the above.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
even the photos you put up show that it could not possibly have been a big passenger jet. where is the wreckage of the jet? why is there not damage to the building across the full width of the wings? The openings you show are 40 feet wide. that was after debris fell. and demolition workers helped the debris to fall just 2-3 hours after the incident. in the afternoon of that day the pictures could be taken showing a 40 foot wide hole the height of the building. This is still inconsistent with the big passenger jet. and the early pictures taken right after the incident show a much smaller hole. who you going to believe, your lying eyes or the government/mass media? hard choice.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
You are showing images of the collapsed structure, you are not showing pre- collapse images, so you of course aren't showing the original damage. As far as THIS image you posted, let's analyze it a bit... Two problems with this image. 1) The red line on the left wing which is supposed to indicate the direction of travel of the left wing tip is skewed to the right and is not parallel to the other two red lines representing the stabalizer tip and right wing tip. The actual termination of that line should be at about the extreme left side of the image. 2) Even WITH the obvious distortion and skewing, the wing should have impacted where the unbroken windows are in the following image. Magical glass I guess, eh? Oh, and super magical fuel, since it instantly evaporated and didn't burn the wall like any other jet fuel would have done. ALL HE EVER HAD FOR TRAINING WAS IN SMALL SINGLE ENGINE AIRCRAFT. Cannot be done, right???? Depends on the pilot, and WHY he didn't have a license, and HOW he got the job in the first place. Perhaps he flew as a co-pilot for years and became familiar with the instuments, perhaps the story is BS as well. Thing is, Hanjour COULD NOT FLY even a single engine Cessna, and was refused permission to rent a Cessna even though he did show a license to the people he tried to rent from. He could not perform the most basic manuevers with the plane on a test flight on at least two separate occasions.
I also like this one for obvious reasons. Yet for the damage to be consistent with that of an aircraft, the plane would have to have been as low as depicted in that image, flying straight and level. All at 500+ mph by a flunk out of a simulator school who couldn't correctly fly a single engine Cessna in a circle around an airport, yet defied the laws of physics on 9/11 by overcoming inertia, ground effect, and turbulence, in the blink of an eye.
I have always thought that many people may have unsuspected talents, the ability to apply perceptual and cognitive skills in remarkable ways. This would not be your average pilot. And even training to fly small aircraft includes a lot of general information about aerodynamic principles and engineering, a good start on mastering IFR. From what I read, big airliners are almost always on autopilot while in flight. It's the takeoffs and especially the landings that require real skill. Also, the emergency training, something your fake pilot would have failed and killed everyone in a situation where a professional pilot would have saved the flight.
Did I tell you yet about my pet theory involving hacked autopilot guidance? Perhaps I can convince you by sheer repetition. Anyway, we seem to be getting farther afield all the time and I don't want to spend the day on it. This thread has had enough of my time.
We can agree on the fact that Hani Hanjour did not pilot that aircraft. We can agree to disagree on how and by whom the aircraft was actually controlled. The fact also remains that there is absolutely no valid evidence indicating Flight 77 struck the Pentagon. BTW, have you ever seen this image? Click the image below, then click the image in your browser again to enlarge it , look in the bottom left hand corner. You might have to scroll the image to the left to see it. It's runway 15 of Reagan International Airport, and is almost in a direct line with the flight path of the SECOND aircraft spotted by the two Pentagon officers amongst other witnesses. Here's that flight path (blue line)... And here's a bit more on that... What this indicates is that Flight 77 was more than likely the jet flying the northerly approach, and that it landed immediately at Reagan International Airport, runway 15, after flying over the Pentagon. The aircraft flying the southerly approach hit the Pentagon as Flight 77 passed over it. I don't think any "terrorists" (other than inside the government) could have pulled that off, with or without "hacked autopilot".
I see your point and have seen the theory and the guys who came up with it. Disposing of the plane and the passengers and making sure that no witness sees the plane flying very low over the Pentagon's roof toward the runway a few seconds after a giant boom makes everyone look directly toward the Pentagon? Seems incredible. Literally.
wait a minute. You're barred from discussing this further as you've spent too much time on it already. (just kidding). see that citgo station in FormerLurker's photo? There were 4 FBI agents at that store within 5 minutes of the event. they confiscated the store's security tapes. there were security cameras taking videos all over the pentagon parking lot. and those videos were not released either. Hotels along the route of the jet also had their security videos confiscated. The video the government did release was from a security camera around one of the corners of the pentagon, it did not have a view. Why are these videos not circulated if it was a passenger jet? Some people hear a military officer on tv say that he saw the passenger jet and they believe him. no. what of the physical evidence, the video tapes?
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
It'd have to be timed perfectly, where the smoke screen would be guaranteed to rise up at the right time in order to obscure the aircraft. Sleight of hand is not impossible, especially when we're talking about aircraft moving in identical paths except towards the very end, though far enough apart so that nobody actually sees both in the sky at the same time. It's not absolute that the real Flight 77 did in fact land at Reagan International, although it could easily have blended in to appear as if it were just taking off from runway 15.
Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today. I wonder how many of them are still alive and how many of them had "accidents" or died from "natural causes"?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Prove your continuous BS. I wager (as usual) you can't.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Eat me. Please demonstrate where and when it was lifted. The onus is on you. Not to mention the anus.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
buckeroo: Prove your continuous BS. I wager (as usual) you can't. And let us examine your response.... I really think you can't back-up anything you post.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today. That it would. I wonder how many of them are still alive and how many of them had "accidents" or died from "natural causes"? Has anyone been able to keep track of them to verify they are ok?
The Pentagon lawn wasn't even scuffed up until after the firetrucks and ambulances and whatever other emergency equipment ran over it. The plane didn't do any damage to the lawn. Amazing.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. That it is, especially if the plane "bounced" off the lawn as TooConservative insists.
Wouldn't you love to have a lawn that a big-@$$ commercial jet could slam into and it wouldn't even leave a mark? Must be some mighty fine grass. What is hard to understand though is why the emergency vehicles, much smaller and lighter, damaged it some. A real puzzler.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It seems so much more magical and complex than just an airliner crashing into the Pentagon. But you lean toward the missile-did-it thing. I'm not following the whole dispute very well, not being expert in the theology, but you and wudi are then the "no-planer neo-Truthers" and most of the other people at 4um are "planer paleo-Truthers"? It's harder to keep track of than a bunch of feuding Baptists.
I'm not sure about the "no-plane" theories in regards to WTC1 and WTC2. Howver, there WAS of course SOME sort of aircraft seen by witnesses in terms of the Pentagon, in fact, probably TWO aircraft. Something DID FLY into the Pentagon, but what WAS it that impacted? All indications are that it was most definitely NOT a Boeing 757. As far as overflying the Pentagon with the actual aircraft, it might seem "magical and complex", but then again, so wouldn't fooling people into believing a cruise missile or a drone was an actual 757. To aid the illusion, it was probably necessary to have a REAL 757 fly the route. Might as well use the one that was hijacked I suppose, if it were in fact taken over by remote control.
Prove your continuous BS. I wager (as usual) you can't. I submit that any govt employee who wants to keep his/her job and not under suspicious circs cross over the River Styx shortly after wouldn't dare offer contradictory evidence. A gag order is unnecessary because the writing is on the wall for any who DARE challenge the ever evolving fairie tale that fostered the new religion of the oil thieving war mongers. And, the proof is evident everywhere as all (who can't be fired and are not easily intimidated) that question the bullshit story are savaged with everything the MIC/Israeli/BushCo/Nazi/Neoqueer machines can heave at them. You both know that if you were taken aboard UFOs and anally probed you'd be stupid to tell anyone because officially, off plant intelligence does not exist and you'd be declared defacto delusional (by many of the same lying bastards) for saying otherwise. 9/11 is no different, and so far every single govt whistle blower on any secret has been made to regret it. So, for buck to demand proof of anything when he'd be among the most vicious to savage any such ATC employee (and to offer unsubstantiated bullshit as "proof" of their mental illness) is evidence of his intellectual dishonesty, and his agenda. And, to suggest that a gag order is keeping the silence is to suggest that people don't jump into volcanoes because of the consequences of ruining their clothes.
I'd like to get some of that grass, mine sucks.
Yes, sometimes I wonder if the person who posts here under the name buckeroo is actually the same person who used that moniker on FR, Liberty Post, Freedom Underground and wherever else he might have posted. The one who used to post on those boards didn't seem to be such a big fan of the government. I know times change and sometimes people change but not usually 180 degrees. If it is the same buck I wonder what they are holding over him to catapult their propaganda.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Yeah, me too. Just a little of it would probably do the front and back where I live now.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I take it you mean landing on Runway 15/32, a 5204 foot runway. I did find a Boeing airport planning document for the 757 which gives runway landing lengths for the 757-200 but I am not confident I fully grasp the graphs found starting at the bottom of page 64. Maybe you would have enough room to make the gentle turn after the near-hit of the Pentagon and still get down on the runway quick enough and straight enough to make a stop. ... Well, unless you have a magically hacked autopilot. Then of course... If I'm making fun of my own pet theories just for fun, it's time to go outside for a while.
Have you noticed that O_I has backed-offed and won't chime in about his own claim: Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today. ? He is an Internet charlatan.. a mere, used-car salesman.. kicking old tires trying to sale junk to old and frayed idiots, akin to you.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
He may be a natural contrarian who disagrees when posting at state worshipers' sites, and then is the govt's best friend here. Perhaps his real goal is to frustrate others because misery loves company. And, it's one thing to criticize things about the govt that aren't likely to contribute to its collapse. He may be too afraid of the truth of 9/11 because like millions of other recipients of govt checks his first priority is his own comfort and survival. When that could be jeopardized by the truth the govt could be secretly eating babies and people like him would not reveal it, and in fact many would help cover up the crimes. I've written several times that countless SS recipients in my neighborhood barber shop used to say, "I don't care what happens after I'm gone, I just want mah damn check!" Well, on a moral scale just how far do you believe it is from taking advantage of the social security swindle to actively aiding the govt in its plunder?
. . . and begin flaming and throwing around epithets in a discussion hitherto pretty rational and factual. But I do remember the stories from 2004 that controllers were being gagged. I don't keep yards of stuff on disk the way some do, and when I look for stuff on these tragedies and their coverup, I find a lot of links to published sources broken. There's this though on the server of letsrollforums.com which is still active. I spoke with William earlier today and he told me about this new gag order placed on all FAA employees on the 15th of October. This is short, but you will get the point; cheers- phil --------------------- Current and Retired FAA Employees Issued "Series 900" Gag Order by FAA. Original article found at: http://suetheterrorists.net/page14.html Abel Ashes 10/15/04 I apologize in advance that this will be a short posting and that it will not answer all of your, or my questions. Stanley and I will be looking into this matter further and will release information on this subject as it becomes available. Stanley was recently shown, by a former FAA employee, an FAA issued document known as a "Series 900". The document is an FAA issued gag order that has been, as we understand things currently, issued to and pertains to all current and former FAA employees demanding that they refrain from discussing any issue related to the September 11th attacks. Current and former FAA employees are banned by issuance of the "Series 900" from discussing 9/11 even with their own families. The document threatens current FAA employees with firings and current and former FAA employees with cancellation of pensions. Best Regards, William Lewis BridgeStone Media Group www.PoliceState21.com NOTICE: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This electronic message contains information which may be privileged and/or confidential. This information is intended for the exclusive use of the individual(s), entity, or persons named or indicated above. Any unauthorized access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of any parts of the contents of this message/information is strictly prohibited by federal law. Any attempts to intercept this message are in violation of Title 18 U.S.C. 2511(1), 3121-3127 of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA). All violators are subject to fines, imprisonment or civil damages, or both. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________ Phil Jayhan 9/11 Blog | Phil Jayhan v666 Blog | Frederick Bastiats Audio of "The Law" I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
Best Regards, William Lewis BridgeStone Media Group www.PoliceState21.com I suppose you read a lot of stuff on the Internet AND as a result... you believe it is ALL true.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Not too far. Unfortunately most people can't seem to grasp that Social(ist) (In)Security is a big Ponzi scheme and doomed to fail. And anyone in the private sector who came up with such a scam would be looking at some serious time in a serious prison. But since politicians did it "under color of law" some people think it must be ok. But stealing is stealing no matter who does it. And, to me, a thief with a gun is more honorable than someone who steals from others under color of law. The thief with a gun makes no pretense that what he is doing is ok, if he thought it was he wouldn't need the gun. But when the government steals from you they do it because "the law" allows them to. And that is unconscionable.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I give it some weight because I remember it being reported in credible mainstream sources years ago. With respect, Buck, what you are implying here is that I am a credulous sucker. In response I will say that I am going off what I recall from quite a while ago. I don't hold myself out as an expert on this stuff, but a few salient things are stored in my memory regarding reporting of the events of the days in question and its aftermath. I can't PROVE the existence of these gag orders, no. There is little that meets the standard of PROOF in many things that we discuss here, be cause officialdom has done all it can to keep many of the facts we're discussing out of tribunals that require sworn testimony. I invite you, Buck, to show that these gag orders are not in force or that they never existed. And I invite other fellow posters here to provide some reasonable substantiation of the proposition that the FAA did in fact gag controllers.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
Ya want me to prove the existence of faeries or perhaps leprechauns, do ya?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
No. Just show us a news article or two from some respected journal by an author who puts his name to it that sheds light on the assertion one way or another. What I'm asking you to do is simply what you require of Original Intent.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
Randge, I have a lot of respect about your bearing and considerations. But, O_I blew it. He made the initial point of view. And when questioned about his own knowledge... all he said was: In effect, O_I is in a defensive posture about his own perspective. And it won't be the last time, I catch O_I forcing some BS upon a thread ALL THE TIME.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Which was a response to "Prove your continuous BS. I wager (as usual) you can't." That was provocative and unnecessary. The assertion that flight controllers were gagged is not outside the realm of credibility. It's not like OI claimed that reptilian photon waves were used to collapse Building Seven. The FAA gag order story is one that many of us remember, although it might be hard to document at a moment's notice. It's not difficult to weigh one's words, I find, until someone else raises the temperature and the ante.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
Excellent find my intelligent and resourceful friend! Please allow me to amplify my remarks with this: I never doubted the gag order but my point is that it's incidental. There is one much better reason not to blab-The Mossad's bag of trix that resemble heart attacks or mechanical failures during flight or sudden despondent leaps from hotel balconies after seeing the minibar prices, etc.,.
Three clicks of a mouse, 'Dawg. I wish to God that someone could get DOCUMENTS and not just ancient posts into a court of law with the perps in the dock.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
"Federal Judge" is a title of nobility. The now deceased Sherman Skolnick documented the theft, resale and divvying up of assets by the IL Bankruptcy Court liquidators who then split with the judges. It wasn't that long ago when the fact that these judges served fixed terms was a "problem" because their cases sometimes continued beyond their service. The solution? Why, lifetime appointments for them of course. I saw other problems they didn't mention, though. Suppose a judge had already taken his cut and another judge had to finish the case. Where was his split? No, it wouldn't be fair for a liquidator to have to give up his split (2 4 them and nun 4 him) so, congress did the only thing they could do..... And I know from my own experience when I helped a pal beat 3 counts of felony tax evasion (I wrote, Wifey typed and he filed as "Attorney Pro Se") that nobody can stack a jury like the feds. Among those who can't wait to convict are jurors who have previously served and convicted, local, county and state govt employees, insurance bureaucrats, recipients of the "negative income tax" and others on the dole, etc., but never do they seat indie truckers, independent businessmen, flea market operators or any cash-only types of entrepreneurs who have learned how to under report or jurors who exonerated defendants before. The US Attorney may even examine tax returns of those in the pool because state worshipers can be spotted by how and what they file. Throw in a dutiful pool of scribes who spin the news so that even exonerations read like "gross miscarriages of justice" and one need not wonder why the federal conviction rate is somewhere around 97%. And this is why people like you and I can't get past the grand jury forepersons who are selected for their belief in the govt's infallibility. Needless to say, you and I can no longer initiate an investigation of a banskster (or a Bernie Madoff) by contacting the "independent grand jury" foreperson. "Certain folks" are only indicted if the US Attorney (usually his/her assistant-AUSA and with great regret, alas) brings the case and recommends prosecution.
Sounds like you know how to un-stack 'em. If I ever get in a pinch, I'll drop you a line, HOUNDDAWG.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. - Roman Moroni
Or maybe they put one in just in case a terrorist wants to reprogram the flight computer, you never know... LOL LOL That might explain why cellphones, iPods, laptops, and the like weren't prohibited carry-on items thereafter. /s Most likely, passengers would not be instructed post-9/11 to merely turn their cellphones and such off but to hand all those electonic gadgetries over to Security for confiscation before boarding if there was any realistic possibility that they could be used to alter the flight systems.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
If I ever get in a pinch, I'll drop you a line, HOUNDDAWG. It's better to stay off their RADAR. We had one thing going for us. The Judge, Jane Roth (wife of Sen. William Roth of Roth IRA fame) had just been appointed but not yet seated on the court of appeals in Philly and I made sure that the case was so porked that she would not want it to be appealed. Even though she would have had to recuse herself it would have been shamefully embarrassing for her new peers to read the errors we forced her to commit in order to assure a conviction during the tax season (Jan thru April) I explained all this to my pal when I told him that he would be convicted (after reviewing the 22 prospective jurors in the pool) and I instructed him to continue to file all (of my prepared) points of law in writing but to question no witnesses and offer no verbal arguments at all for the record. When the case arrived in Philly it would be a one sided prosecution of a mute with no lawyer! (On the strength of my filings Roth had already certified him as capable of acting as his own counsel! Whoops!) When he was quite naturally convicted by a jury that aimed to please Judge Roth gave him a $50 dollar fine (which he never paid) and no jail time, suspended or otherwise! (He was facing 15 years and $300,000 in fines and ended up convicted of a federal infraction, something like "driving too fast for conditions on a military reservation" or, "singing too loud in church held by a military chaplain"!) I begged him to appeal but he was so relieved and exhausted that he refused. One year later he changed his mind. His doctor was prepared to swear that he was too sick to stand trial (that was the ball busting tax reb I knew! Hell, he'd socked away so much in unpaid taxes that he could afford to appeal a fifty dollar fine to the SCOTUS if necessary!) just as the deadline to appeal was about to run out. A week later he had a stroke and 5 days later he died. My pal never was arrested. He learned of his misfortune by reading it in the paper, which meant he was the duly selected sacrifice to "stimulate voluntary compliance" that tax season. (ENTER THE DAWGGY PERTHUN:) So, I put on my Young Republican For Jesus disguise and went to the courthouse and I explained to the magistrate that the reason why he missed his scheduled arraignment that day was, "He's afraid that you'll drag him out in chains for the 6 O'clock news to scare people into filing income taxes, Your Honor!", I explained. The magistrate didn't like that. She said "We have no control over what the media does, Mr. WoofDawg.", in a quiet, even tone. (I wasn't accusing the media!) Next I spoke with the AUSA and arranged for my pal to post bail with the deed to his home the next day. He was never cuffed or locked up. He signed his name and left and they never mentioned his case in the news again! That was 18 years ago and there have been no public prosecutions of "civilian schmucks" in DE since. They've prosecuted non filing IRS employees and those with agreements/contracts/licenses with/from the govt, and as "persons required" they were either fraudulent filers or non filers. Hell, they shoulda thrown the book at 'em! ;) I like to think that they were so close to being seriously embarrassed and possibly even losing the case in the public arena if not in court that they decided to let US Attorneys in "them other big states" handle the annual IRS terror campaign.
You: I can't explain it. But I don't accept the feds' explanation at all. I don't make up crazy shit if I don't know. I say that I don't know. This actually does make it possible to learn something. What crazy stuff? Any investigation beyond the parameters of the feds' explanation of fire and debris damage, which even you supposedly reject completely? There's not a very big range of other options to explain it and suspected controlled demolition certainly doesn't equate to "crazy", "ludicrous", and so on. If you don't have a WTC 7 theory yet, do you have one for how the floors above the alleged impact zone at the Pentagon managed to remain in place a long while after the huge explosion was filmed, since they weren't reportedly reinforced like the outer wall? Do you have any theory about why alleged Flight 93 is said to have been fully submerged 45 feet under the ground at Shanksville, as if the terrain was so spongey- soft at the time as to resemble watery-quicksand, yet the heavy machinery reportedly used to excavate the site didn't sink so and neither did anyone working there? Sure, those last two paragraphs sound like wildly nonsensical stuff but it's the Official Story. We didn't make it up. They did.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
You: In general terms, I would say that it is a mistake to focus on who. First you demonstrate the facts don't support the gooberment explanation. Then you force a new investigation. Then you go after Them (CIA or DIA or Iran/Hezbollah or al-Qaeda or Mossad). The who of it should be ignored until the how of it is resolved. Really? I didn't get that impression when you were making who-how suggestions about suborned Muzzie aircraft technicians. Also, it's bassackwards tedium to expansively assert a programmable hijacking and the guesstimated effects thereof without first addressing the risk of counter-measures which make that proposed scenario implausible anyway. F-16s, for instance, are equipped for remote control warfare. Please do address such risks to the perps before proceeding any further down that techie path. Otherwise, it's just a pointless hypothetical that's sooo like crazily ludicrous, made-up stuff.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Substitute any variety of technicians you want.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Yeah. Ol' BeAChooser would get just about mad enough to chew nails and spit rust when anyone posted that "Pentalawn" picture. I can just see him sputtering and hollering KOOK at everyone who didn't believe the Official Fairy Tale™.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I almost miss BeachOoser. Particularly since he hated being called BeachOoser. I imagine he must be in the Dildohead Happy Home by now, assuming he is not a Daisy Farm.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
. There. Did that help?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Thank you. Just like the "good old days". LOL!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Always glad to help out when I can.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
#2. To: TooConservative (#1)
#3. To: Ada, Richard Gage, 4 (#0)
#4. To: Lod, *9-11* (#3)
#5. To: ghostdogtxn (#2)
Nice. Go after the messenger for something completely unrelated when you have absolutely nothing with which to credibly refute the message.
#6. To: ghostdogtxn (#2)
#7. To: RickyJ (#6)
(Edited)
He should change his name to "toostupid", because that was the lamest attempt to discredit 9/11 truth I have ever seen.
#8. To: TooConservative (#7)
#9. To: Rube Goldberg (#8)
That he is a truther only validates my nearlier impression.
#10. To: TooConservative, Ada, Ada, Richard Gage, 4, Lod, wudidiz (#1)
#11. To: Rube Goldberg (#8)
He would have been my choice for president if it weren't for Ron Paul. I was impressed with what he had to say. That he is a truther only validates my nearlier impression.
#12. To: Lysander_Spooner (#10)
Hey, doesn't this guy know we are way past stage two, the fighting has begun, and the "W" is in sight. Peace.
#13. To: TooConservative (#7)
You guys are aware there are con-men that run around trying to take advantage of anyone who will listen to them? And that Gravel is a few ice blocks short of an igloo?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#14. To: TooConservative (#12)
The future of the Truther movement is declining numbers, an ongoing stream of literature by clever con-men to peddle to the faithful as the decades unfold until all of you die off around 2070 or so.
#15. To: James Deffenbach (#13)
Those who believe the government is telling the truth about what happened on 9/11 couldn't even begin to build an igloo if we want to talk about being a few ice blocks short. They couldn't make the base of one.
#16. To: RickyJ (#15)
Yeah, anyone that believes our government about 9/11 might as well off themselves now, they are too stupid to live.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#17. To: RickyJ (#14)
Then why are the Jews so scared of 9/11 truthers?
#18. To: RickyJ (#15)
Yeah, anyone that believes our government about 9/11 might as well off themselves now, they are too stupid to live.
#19. To: RickyJ (#15)
Yeah, anyone that believes our government about 9/11 might as well off themselves now, they are too stupid to live.
#20. To: titorite (#19)
Not the best way to win folks over and get across the truth.
#21. To: titorite, RickyJ, Too Conservative (#19)
(Edited)
Not the best way to win folks over and get across the truth.
#22. To: LACUMO (#21)
He just might have been trying to drive the stupid flies away.
#23. To: ghostdogtxn (#2)
#24. To: Rube Goldberg (#8)
#25. To: RickyJ (#15)
(Edited)
#26. To: titorite (#19)
#27. To: LACUMO (#21)
#28. To: Eric Stratton (#26)
I for one get tired of some of my friends and family members that regardless of what I show them think I'm a kook...
#29. To: TooConservative (#28)
#30. To: Itistoolate (#29)
#31. To: TooConservative (#30)
#32. To: Itistoolate (#31)
#33. To: TooConservative, 4 (#32)
Richard Perle
#34. To: Jethro Tull (#33)
There's a man who vanished quicker than the imaginary Iraqi WMDs
#35. To: TooConservative (#32)
I don't think Richard Perle was ever a student or the head of the War College
#36. To: TooConservative, Ada, Richard Gage, 4, Lod, wudidiz (#12)
(Edited)
under rigid central control.
#37. To: Lysander_Spooner (#36)
#38. To: randge, TooConservative (#35)
#39. To: Itistoolate (#29)
#40. To: Lysander_Spooner, wudidiz (#36)
Ah, another Authoritarian outs himself, lol.
#41. To: wudidiz (#38)
TooCon doesn't have to look at the evidence in order to make his judgment.
#42. To: TooConservative (#41)
So, no, I don't generally look at your "evidence".
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#43. To: James Deffenbach (#42)
Seriously, do you believe the tale they told about the events of 9/11?
#44. To: TooConservative (#43)
#45. To: TooConservative (#43)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#46. To: James Deffenbach (#45)
I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't, do anything. I was just curious if you believed the bs story they told about it. About how some raghead in a cave overwhelmed what is alleged to be the best military force in the world and caused NORAD to stand down, melted steel with Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™ and all the other insane things they would have you believe.
#47. To: TooConservative, James Deffenbach (#45)
...and need help....
#48. To: TooConservative (#46)
Like how this bunch should have been caught and deported before 9/11.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#49. To: TooConservative (#46)
Some of you guys are the rather exotic Truther types. Some of you have got your antigravity and energy weapons (from the alien UFO stuff at Area 51) and nano-thermite and mini-nukes.
#50. To: TooConservative (#46)
I do find it ironic that I reject the official 9/11 Commission Report as a complete and truthful account
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#51. To: wudidiz (#47)
...that's where we come in.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#52. To: James Deffenbach, TooConservative (#51)
(Edited)
Like how maybe a lot of buildings really aren't up to the published specs, despite (corrupt) inspectors. Or there is something even more fundamentally wrong with their design.
#53. To: James Deffenbach (#51)
Well, we can try to help.
#54. To: wudidiz (#52)
They gotta stop making them out of concrete and steel. They just crumble everytime someone puts explosives in them.
#55. To: wudidiz (#52)
They gotta stop making them out of concrete and steel. They just crumble everytime someone puts explosives in them.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#56. To: James Deffenbach (#55)
I think 7 got hit with a few drops of the Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™. No plane hit it so that must be the explanation.
#57. To: TooConservative (#56)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#58. To: James Deffenbach, wudidiz, all (#57)
#59. To: TooConservative, RickyJ (#12)
The 9/11 Truth movement peaked 3-4 years ago, part of the Bush-hate peddled by the old elements of the "professional Left", namely the old academic commie ideologues that led the "antiwar" movement (but think Obongo-war is just fine).
#60. To: Rube Goldberg, TooConservative (#8)
(Edited)
The guy crashed a taxi and he's a nutjob? He would have been my choice for president if it weren't for Ron Paul. I was impressed with what he had to say. That he is a truther only validates my nearlier impression.
#61. To: HOUNDDAWG (#60)
One concern of mine is any member of AK's congressional delegation must use airplanes, and it's not unusual for them to use small bush and float planes to reach the interior and extreme coastal areas.
#62. To: HOUNDDAWG (#59)
You can keep whistling past the cemetery but keep your passports current.
#63. To: Ada (#0)
WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire
Only Building 7 had unfought fires
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129435&page=1
#64. To: TooConservative (#5)
#65. To: ghostdogtxn (#64)
And your problem is that you can watch a building free fall into its own footprint and cannot open your mind to the likelihood that it was a controlled demo.
#66. To: TooConservative (#12)
The future of the Truther movement is declining numbers, an ongoing stream of literature by clever con-men to peddle to the faithful as the decades unfold until all of you die off around 2070 or so.
1 : the act of conspiring together
2 a : an agreement among conspirators b : a group of conspirators syn see plot
#67. To: christine (#66)
yeah, just like those who still continue to talk about the Kennedy assassination, huh? i believe that the 9/11 truth movement is global and that only those working for government in some capacity or another and have their selfish asses to protect are the majority of those who continue to believe the government CONSPIRACY.
#68. To: TooConservative (#65)
#69. To: christine (#66)
yeah, just like those who still continue to talk about the Kennedy assassination, huh?
i believe that the 9/11 truth movement is global
#70. To: GreyLmist (#68)
I posted a link showing that there were 3 working fireboats in the area. If you think WTC 7 fell because of unfought fires, what's your explanation for that in light of the firefighting Harvey and other two crews of a nautical sort on duty?
#71. To: TooConservative, Christine (#69)
It doesn't matter who believes what or how many
#72. To: TooConservative, christine (#69)
Exactly like that, yes. Do you want to buy into the Cubans or the Mafia or the CIA or Mossad or...well...one of the dozen or so other major theories about JFK out there?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#73. To: TooConservative (#69)
This is essentially another false numbers idea that is popular but entirely false.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#74. To: Cynicom (#71)
A few days ago I reread the eyewitness accounts of the people present at the Pentagon crash. They ranged from Americans to foreign tourists, from ranking military employees to out of work janitors, all with ONE thing in common, THEY HAPPENED TO BE NEAR OR PASSING THE PENTAGON WHEN THEY SAW AN ....AMERICAN AIRLINES...AIRCRAFT PASS BY AND HIT THE PENTAGON.
#75. To: TooConservative (#74)
#76. To: TooConservative, Cynicom (#74)
(Edited)
THEY HAPPENED TO BE NEAR OR PASSING THE PENTAGON WHEN THEY SAW AN ....AMERICAN AIRLINES...AIRCRAFT PASS BY AND HIT THE PENTAGON.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#77. To: Cynicom (#75)
Absurdity is a lost cause on many.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#78. To: Cynicom, TooConservative, FormerLurker, *9-11* (#75)
One rapidly tires of "debating" people this stupid or gullible.
#79. To: FormerLurker (#76)
(Edited)
#80. To: TooConservative (#74)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#81. To: FormerLurker (#80)
#82. To: Red Jones (#79)
We should also remember that just 1-2 days prior Secretary Rumsfeld had given a press conference about the missing trillions of dollars. The accountants on the 2'nd floor were agitating and basically forced him into it. Then they were killed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#83. To: FormerLurker (#82)
#84. To: TooConservative (#70)
(Edited)
thought you included the retired fireboat too. That is a nice little story about that boat.
#85. To: Red Jones (#81)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#86. To: FormerLurker (#85)
#87. To: Red Jones (#81)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#88. To: TooConservative, Cynicom, FormerLurker, Red Jones, GreyLmist (#74)
The infamous 16' hole that some Truthers have made so much of is a goofball theory (peddled by con-men who know better IMO) and is one of these various MIHOP "theories" that is completely incredible outside the circles of the most gullible and conspiracy-minded Truthers.
#89. To: *9-11*, TooConservative, All (#88)
One rapidly tires of "debating" people this stupid or gullible.
#90. To: wudidiz (#89)
#91. To: Eric Stratton (#90)
#92. To: wudidiz (#91)
#93. To: Eric Stratton (#92)
#94. To: Eric Stratton (#92)
#95. To: TooConservative (#65)
#96. To: wudidiz (#91)
#97. To: wudidiz (#94)
#98. To: wudidiz (#94)
#99. To: Red Jones, *9-11* (#96)
that is a very excellent link.
#100. To: All (#99)
#101. To: TooConservative (#65)
I'm open to it. I just require evidence
#102. To: wudidiz (#99)
#103. To: FormerLurker, christine, Cynicom (#73)
The manuevers performed by the aircraft that day could NOT have been performed by somebody who never flew a jet in their lives, yet NONE of them had ever flown a jet, and not one of them was even a mediocre pilot.
#104. To: Cynicom (#102)
I love shoving a stick into a hornets nest. hehehehehehehehehehehe
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#105. To: FormerLurker (#104)
#106. To: TooConservative (#103)
Not that I want to discuss it in detail but I've long mused that it would be quite possible for a single aircraft electronics technician familiar with the autopilot-GPS systems to hack out a program that could be uploaded into the aircraft systems by a terrorist in only a few moments (while an unskilled pilot held the stick steady in flight while safely thousands of feet in the air) and you could program the aircraft to fly quite precisely to its target, no expert human terminal guidance would be required. None.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#107. To: ghostdogtxn (#95)
The collapse of WTC7 itself is evidence. It was filmed from several angles, and it makes no sense at all that it fell from fire or airplane parts.
#108. To: FormerLurker (#104)
So do you at least admit the official story is a lie?
#109. To: TooConservative (#107)
#110. To: ghostdogtxn (#109)
Unfortunately, since the official myth of that day has been used to justify all kinds of shit, from me being frisked/fondled at the airport to the predator droning of some poor-ass thirteen year old bedouin shepherd on some mountain in some stan or another
#111. To: TooConservative (#103)
You could program it the autopilot to guide the plane into the Pentagon only a few feet off the ground, just as the video tapes (obtained by FOIA requests in 2006) showed the plane hitting the building.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#112. To: FormerLurker (#106)
First off, the NTSB reports that the autopilot was turned off as Flight 77 approached Washington DC.
Secondly, it is not obvious HOW to enable or disable autopilot, it is a function of the flight management computer. Hani Hanjour, the alleged "pilot", never trained on a 757 simulator, nor was he even capable of flying a Cessna, let alone a multi-engine jumbo jet.
Finally, not even a highly trained professional pilot can negate the laws of physics and aerodynamics, and not only did the plane fly too low at too high of a speed to be able to hit the Pentagon nose first and flying level, but there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon since the windows aren't broken where the wings would have struck at 500+ mph.
a) The crews and passengers of all "hijacked" aircraft were subdued and/or neutralized with chemical agents such as nerve gas pumped into the ventilation systems.
b) The planes were taken over by remote control, as you suggest.
c) Regardless of whether the actual "hijacked" planes struck the World Trade Center towers, or some other specially equipped aircraft made to LOOK like those hijacked planes, they weren't being flown by "angry arabs", some of whom are still alive to this day.
d) Whatever struck the Pentagon was NOT a 757, thus NOT Flight 77.
#113. To: Cynicom (#108)
If he complains to Christine I will be banned and a tin can tied to my tail.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#114. To: TooConservative (#112)
The autopilot or another hackable system could be hacked for this.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#115. To: ghostdogtxn (#109)
The problem I have is that the official mythology is essentially proved false by the way WTC7 fell. It doesn't work, and no amount of bullshit thrown at the problem makes it work.
Which means something else happened than what we are told happened. I don't "know" what that something else was. But a rational person, once he finds that one hypothesis is disproved by evidence, does not cling to that hypothesis. The choice is to formulate a new hypothesis or abandon the inquiry.
but I don't accept the collapse of WTC7 from debris and fire
#116. To: TooConservative (#112)
But he could have held the stick while the autopilot and one or more flight control computers were reprogrammed. These devices undoubtedly use solid-state memory for their OS (flashable memory) like your computer or cellphone do.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#117. To: TooConservative (#112)
But a reprogrammed autopilot could certainly do so. These planes have exceptionally sophisticated autopilot systems and the flight characteristics of these aircraft are extremely well-documented.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#118. To: FormerLurker (#114)
If these guys were such experts, they wouldn't need to even physically be on those aircraft.
#119. To: TooConservative (#112)
The problem is that you probably want the terrorist with minimal piloting skills to remain alive to the last moment so he could re-target the aircraft to a very large and impressive target if he realized the hacked autopilot could not hit the target accurately.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#120. To: TooConservative (#118)
They wouldn't be experts or hackers. They would be carrying a preprogrammed hacking device (laptop, cellphone, calculator, iPod or even a small unclad circuit board).
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#121. To: FormerLurker (#117)
No, an aircraft of the size and wingspan of a large airliner most certainly COULD NOT fly that low to the ground at that high of a speed and DESCEND. It would CLIMB, not DESCEND.
#122. To: TooConservative (#112)
Prove it. Produce these terrorists. Not vague rumors or scanty and unsubstantiated reports from goofball newspapers in the Third World.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#123. To: TooConservative (#115)
#124. To: TooConservative (#121)
Strangely enough, I believe that airliners fly that close to the ground every day. As we write, I expect a dozen or more airliners around the world are flying exactly that close to the ground without climbing.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#125. To: TooConservative (#112)
Not remotely. Hacked with a portable kit, maybe in a cellphone or iPod, carried onboard by the terrorists.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#126. To: TooConservative (#112)
I believe the evidence supports that it was Flight 77.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#127. To: FormerLurker (#120)
I'm talking about the people behind the attacks. Why bother with crazy arabs if you can do it with a chip?
The level of sophistation required is well beyond simple hacking of a iPod or other such device. In order to hack something, you need the real thing available in order to even attempt to find a way to hack it.
I doubt they had 757's sitting on the ground at their disposal, well, not those 19 "angry arabs" at least.
#128. To: FormerLurker (#125)
The US government (or factions thereof) doesn't need physical bodies onboard an aircraft in order to fly it remotely, as can be witnessed by the existance of drones.
#129. To: TooConservative (#127)
I would be very surprised if you had 1024-bit (or greater) encryption methods and hardware protection of these systems. Industrial systems are never as state of the art as even a PS3 or Xbox or some cellphones. This is why members of Congress routinely refer to the dangers of computer systems being hacked, because these systems are often wide open.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#130. To: TooConservative (#127)
You would only need to take an autopilot or have complete specs of it and a copy of the OS and a compatible hardware system to test it on. You'd have to fake up a set of programmable sensor inputs and such for testing the rig. Then it's just programming.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#131. To: TooConservative (#128)
True. But those cellphone conversations would be hard to fake and are a vital part of the propaganda attack on the citizens, aren't they?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#132. To: TooConservative (#128)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#133. To: FormerLurker (#124)
Strangely enough, airliners don't land at 500 mph (which is their cruising speed at 35,000 feet).
#134. To: FormerLurker (#131)
Even the FBI admitted that the cell phone calls to Solicitor Olson never occured.
Even IF some of those calls were actually made, it is quite easy these days for a particular person's voice to be synthesized from somebody else's. It's also possible that those making the calls, the actual passengers involved, were part of the plot.
#135. To: TooConservative (#133)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#136. To: TooConservative (#133)
Believe me, you cannot simply pose arguments that end up along the lines of irresistable-force-meets-immovable-object. It really doesn't work that way in the real world; ask any engineer. If the plane is in a basic approach pattern but programmed to touch down exactly at the outside edge of the building, the speed and inertia of that huge-ass aircraft would overcome the ground effect that would try to rebuff the plane back up further from the ground. So it might rebuff the aircraft except that it hit and devastated the Pentagon before the ground effect could force it back into the air.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#137. To: FormerLurker (#130)
The "autopilot" is essentially the heart of the Flight Management System and ties navigational inputs and flight data systems into a sophisticated AI program which sends digital and analog outputs to control systems throughout the aircraft.
#138. To: FormerLurker (#136)
Thing is, for the plane to descend it would have to lose airspeed, yet it increased airspeed at the beginning of the approach while maintaining the same relative altitude, then somehow descended without losing airspeed or pointing the nose down.
#139. To: ghostdogtxn (#123)
It is the great leaps into conspiratorial theories that aren't at all supported by the evidence, when what should be done is a baby-step by baby-step serious inquiry.
I do see among Truther activists more recently a much greater seriousness about pursuing their goal in a narrower and single-minded way and with a much more disciplined message as a group.
#140. To: FormerLurker, Red Jones (#82)
(Edited)
Silverstein was looking for a way out of the WTC as the towers were loaded with asbestos and were loosing money, and to strip them of the asbestos would have cost more money than they were worth.
#141. To: christine, Cynicom, FormerLurker (#108)
#142. To: FormerLurker (#126)
TooConservative: I believe the evidence supports that it was Flight 77.
#143. To: wudidiz, Cynicom (#141)
#144. To: TooConservative (#138)
I do demand that Truthers aren't allowed to repeal the fundamental laws of physics. Next thing you know, they'll toss entropy on the bonfire and the whole universe will go poof. LOL.
#145. To: christine, Cynicom (#143)
#146. To: wudidiz (#145)
Sure, but at least you can tie a can to his tail for trying to incite a riot on another 9/11 thread?
#147. To: GreyLmist (#146)
#148. To: TooConservative (#138)
I do demand that Truthers aren't allowed to repeal the fundamental laws of physics
#149. To: RickyJ (#148)
#150. To: wudidiz (#149)
No Planes. Think about it.
#151. To: RickyJ (#150)
#152. To: Original_Intent (#140)
Silverstein was bright enough, and savvy enough, as a real estate investor to not take on those two White Elephants to begin with.
#153. To: TooConservative (#138)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#154. To: GreyLmist (#142)
(Edited)
I thought it sounded funner than waiting much longer for TC to get to the F-16/AWACS/EMP type complexities of remote control counter- measure risks to the alleged hijackers of the Official spin.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#155. To: TooConservative (#137)
(Edited)
No, nothing is unhackable.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#156. To: TooConservative (#137)
What if you have suborned some Muzzie aircraft technicians
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#157. To: TooConservative (#137)
These had a PowerPC CPU, two independent programmable (and hackable) tuner chips, and a programmable MPEG decoder chip. These interlocked with the control card (HU series) which was a reflashable CPU which included features to fuse certain parts of the circuitry permanently if they desired to defeat attacks on it.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#158. To: Original_Intent (#140)
Silverstein was bright enough, and savvy enough, as a real estate investor to not take on those two White Elephants to begin with.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#159. To: TooConservative (#139)
#160. To: GreyLmist (#144)
Quick, tell us your theory of why WTC 7 fell.
#161. To: ghostdogtxn (#159)
I think it's tea party Republicans.
#162. To: FormerLurker (#157)
(Edited)
A "reflashable CPU" eh? What would be the purpose of reflashing a CPU?
How many ways of doing ANDs, ORs, ADD, SUBs, and JMPs would make a difference?
#163. To: FormerLurker (#155)
However, the hardware architecture of a Boeing flight management computer is NOT pubished, nor are its operating system interfaces, application programming interfaces, nor actual operational control interfaces.
You'd need to basically have a 757 at your disposal, ALL the manuals for the hardware, firmware, and software, intimate knowledge of the navigational systems, flight control systems, and a guided missile program control background to achieve what you're suggesting.
#164. To: FormerLurker (#156)
Or maybe it was some Jew technicians.
#165. To: FormerLurker (#154)
I sort of doubt airliners have USB ports that access the flight management computer for ANY reason, especially not in terms of a maintainance port which could be used to reflash the entire system, as if that were even possibile to do while in flight.
#166. To: FormerLurker (#153)
It turned AWAY from the side of the Pentagon where the high value targets were (such as Rumsfeld's office), where it could have easily DOVE into the Pentagon and exploded all over the roof, spreading flaming fuel over a good portion of the complex. It would have been INFINITELY easier to simply dive into a structure the area of 28 or so football fields, than to perform precision manuevers and line up to hit a 77 foot high wall at ground level.
Yet that is what is CLAIMED to have happened. The aircraft is reported to have come out of it's final turn after having descended to tree top level, then picked up airspeed for about a mile before impacting the Pentagon.
#167. To: TooConservative (#166)
Assuming "treetop" is less than 50 feet, executing a sharp turn would put the wings hitting trees or buildings as you turn the plane since the wing would dip downward, the sharper the turn the more it dips.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#168. To: TooConservative (#166)
And if it was a missile, how did they make the plane "disappear"? How did they keep people from seeing it pass at treetop? Where did they land it? How did they hide it? Etc.?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#169. To: TooConservative (#166)
(Edited)
I think my explanations, imperfect as they are, are still more plausible than what you're offering. But relying on the data we have at this point may be a mistake. We don't have any kind of independent study of the data and lack some information on the systems themselves under extreme conditions like flying at such high speed so near the ground.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#170. To: FormerLurker (#167)
So then it couldn't have been a 757.
#171. To: TooConservative (#170)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#172. To: TooConservative (#170)
Or the instruments and local radar aren't designed for such accuracy at such a low level over a metro area. I would also want to see an expert independent evaluation of the data including the flight recorders and the ground radar readings from the plane.
According to FAA radar controllers, “Flight 77” then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees/minute while descending at 3,500 ft/min, at the end of which “Hanjour” allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver (one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn’t have spelt the word if his life depended on it).
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#173. To: FormerLurker (#172)
#174. To: TooConservative (#170)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#175. To: TooConservative (#170)
There are also eyewitnesses who say they saw the plane
#176. To: FormerLurker (#169)
If you want to read what a real pilot and aeronautical engineer have to say about all this, read the following link...
#177. To: TooConservative (#166)
We don't have any kind of independent study
#178. To: FormerLurker (#174)
There are conflicting reports as to the altitude of the aircraft when it began the 270 degree turn. Many say 7000 feet, where the author of the article I linked assumed ground level.
#179. To: Red Jones (#177)
at some point you have to ask yourself if you are being righteously patriotic or stupidly psychotic?
#180. To: TooConservative (#176)
And my explanation of a hacked autopilot is still far more conceivable than untrained pilots performing such maneuvers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#181. To: Red Jones (#173)
on top of all the other impossible things about the official story we're supposed to believe that an inexperienced person piloted that plane. the guy was not a professional pilot and had no real experience even landing a jet like this big passenger jet. and he performs maneuvers that experienced pilots say are nearly impossible.
#182. To: TooConservative (#181)
The hacked autopilot eliminates the need for the Geico Caveman flying an airliner at treetop.
#183. To: FormerLurker (#180)
A) The aircraft could not have descended to ground level from 50 feet high in a fraction of a second while maintaining a neutral pitch (ie. keeping the nose level).
#184. To: TooConservative (#178)
Again, underlining my point about just how reliable some of this data really is. I am especially suspicious of radar and flight recorder data at treetop. No way did they design their system primarily for that situation since the designers will generally assume that the plane is already lost if it is that close to the ground and not over a runway landing at the proper speed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#185. To: TooConservative (#183)
It left a scar on the lawn. The plane hit the ground and bounced, the collapsing plane exploding as its wreckage hit the building between the first and second floors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#186. To: Red Jones (#182)
you're right about that. but is it so easy to believe that a pilot in a remote location could put the plane inches off the ground and put it into the 1'st floor like that.
#187. To: TooConservative (#183)
And the plane did, as I've said, penetrate all five rings. In this section of the Pentagon, renovations were five days from completion for its new steel underframe, a project which had been underway for the entire Pentagon since the mid-Nineties.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#188. To: TooConservative, Red Jones (#186)
Admittedly, it would be difficult to do the hacked thing but I find it far more plausible and doable than the Geico caveman or a remote piloting job. Remote piloting would require several milliseconds of lag, time you just don't have.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#189. To: TooConservative (#183)
It left a scar on the lawn. The plane hit the ground and bounced, the collapsing plane exploding as its wreckage hit the building between the first and second floors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#190. To: FormerLurker (#185)
If the plane had hit the lawn, it would have blown up on the lawn and never penetrated the building. It would have sprayed burning jet fuel EVERYWHERE, including the lawn itself.
#191. To: FormerLurker (#187)
Did you know that aircraft are basically egg shells made of aluminum? Do you know what happens to an egg when you throw it into a lawn? Do you know what happens if you throw that egg into a brick wall?
#192. To: FormerLurker (#189)
no plane, bump
#193. To: FormerLurker, GreyLmist, wudidiz (#158)
Silverstein was bright enough, and savvy enough, as a real estate investor to not take on those two White Elephants to begin with.
#194. To: FormerLurker (#188)
I would say a remote takeover of the flight SYSTEMS is MUCH more likely, with human guidance on approach, perhaps computer assist on terminal approach.
#195. To: TooConservative, Original_Intent, Red Jones, Lod, wudidiz (#190)
Only if I allow you to repeal inertia. The wings might have remained intact enough to hold up after the bounce until they hit the steel-reinforced concrete (steel reinforcement was five days from completion supposedly).
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#196. To: TooConservative (#194)
Then you (not me) have to start arguing with the Truther pilots who don't believe in the Caveman pilot. I'll again stay with hacked autopilot, at least a device fast enough to react in the milliseconds required over the seconds that plane flew so low before impact.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#197. To: TooConservative (#191)
You can "bounce" an egg off the ground, just like skipping a stone on water.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#198. To: FormerLurker (#195)
Any impact with the lawn where the momentum of the plane would have been abruptly stopped would have resulted in the wings being ripped off and tumbling into the building, and would have left a HUGE gash in the lawn itself, with fireballs of fuel burning everywhere between the point of impact and the Pentagon wall.
#199. To: FormerLurker (#197)
Put up a video on YouTube of you bouncing an egg off the ground, I'd like to see it done.
#200. To: TooConservative (#194)
I'll again stay with hacked autopilot, at least a device fast enough to react in the milliseconds required over the seconds that plane flew so low before impact.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#201. To: TooConservative (#199)
I do have a few of using an egg as a golf ball and as a baseball in fast-pitch. Would those do?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#202. To: TooConservative (#198)
Actually, I assume the bounce could cause the wings to start folding up.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#203. To: TooConservative (#194)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#204. To: TooConservative, wudidiz (#199)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#205. To: FormerLurker, Turtle (#203)
BTW, can you tell me how a 757 would fit into that little hole on the first floor?
I find that many people believe the plane (missile, whatever), hit the Pentagon head on. This is not true and it does become easier to visualize from this diagram imposed over a photo.
Look, look! Unbroken windows!
#206. To: All (#205)
#207. To: FormerLurker (#203)
can you tell me how a 757 would fit into that little hole on the first floor?
#208. To: TooConservative (#206)
#209. To: Cynicom (#208)
#210. To: TooConservative (#206)
#211. To: TooConservative (#205)
(Edited)
I think this picture is far clearer. I object to the way Truthers use some of these pictures to try to lead people to what I consider to be false conclusions. And I think this has been done deliberately by con-men.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#212. To: Cynicom (#208)
Perhaps you read yesterday, in Europe, the pilot arrested for flying for the airlines without a license????
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#213. To: TooConservative (#206)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#214. To: Cynicom (#208)
ALL HE EVER HAD FOR TRAINING WAS IN SMALL SINGLE ENGINE AIRCRAFT.
#215. To: FormerLurker (#213)
All at 500+ mph by a flunk out of a simulator school who couldn't correctly fly a single engine Cessna in a circle around an airport, yet defied the laws of physics on 9/11 by overcoming inertia, ground effect, and turbulence, in the blink of an eye.
#216. To: TooConservative, Red Jones, Original_Intent, Cynicom, wudidiz (#215)
Did I tell you yet about my pet theory involving hacked autopilot guidance?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#217. To: FormerLurker (#216)
#218. To: TooConservative (#217)
#219. To: TooConservative (#217)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#220. To: FormerLurker (#219)
It's not absolute that the real Flight 77 did in fact land at Reagan International, although it could easily have blended in to appear as if it were just taking off from runway 15.
#221. To: Original_Intent (#220)
Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today.
#222. To: buckeroo (#221)
#223. To: Original_Intent (#222)
O_I: Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today.
Eat me.
Please demonstrate where and when it was lifted.
The onus is on you. Not to mention the anus.
#224. To: Original_Intent (#220)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#225. To: FormerLurker (#213)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#226. To: James Deffenbach (#225)
The Pentagon lawn wasn't even scuffed up until after the firetrucks and ambulances and whatever other emergency equipment ran over it. The plane didn't do any damage to the lawn. Amazing.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#227. To: FormerLurker (#226)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#228. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz (#219)
It'd have to be timed perfectly, where the smoke screen would be guaranteed to rise up at the right time in order to obscure the aircraft.
#229. To: TooConservative (#228)
But you lean toward the missile-did-it thing. I'm not following the whole dispute very well, not being expert in the theology, but you and wudi are then the "no-planer neo-Truthers" and most of the other people at 4um are "planer paleo-Truthers"?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#230. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#221)
Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today.
#231. To: James Deffenbach (#227)
Wouldn't you love to have a lawn that a big-@$$ commercial jet could slam into and it wouldn't even leave a mark? Must be some mighty fine grass.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#232. To: HOUNDDAWG (#230)
So, for buck to demand proof of anything when he'd be among the most vicious to savage any such ATC employee (and to offer unsubstantiated bullshit as "proof" of their mental illness) is evidence of his intellectual dishonesty, and his agenda.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#233. To: FormerLurker (#231)
I'd like to get some of that grass, mine sucks.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#234. To: FormerLurker (#219)
It's not absolute that the real Flight 77 did in fact land at Reagan International, although it could easily have blended in to appear as if it were just taking off from runway 15.
#235. To: HOUNDDAWG, Original_Intent (#230)
So, for buck to demand proof of anything
#236. To: James Deffenbach (#232)
Yes, sometimes I wonder if the person who posts here under the name buckeroo is actually the same person who used that moniker on FR, Liberty Post, Freedom Underground and wherever else he might have posted. The one who used to post on those boards didn't seem to be such a big fan of the government. I know times change and sometimes people change but not usually 180 degrees. If it is the same buck I wonder what they are holding over him to catapult their propaganda.
#237. To: HOUNDDAWG, buckeroo, Original_Intent (#230)
So, for buck to demand proof of anything
20 Oct 2004 , 23:24 PM
If such orders exist, it's a good bet that they are still in force. Given the state of "emergency" that we live under the current "war on terror" and all that other crap, I'd be surprised if they just went away.
FAA Gag Order-
#238. To: randge (#237)
Stanley was recently shown, by a former FAA employee, an FAA issued document known as a "Series 900". The document is an FAA issued gag order that has been, as we understand things currently, issued to and pertains to all current and former FAA employees demanding that they refrain from discussing any issue related to the September 11th attacks. Current and former FAA employees are banned by issuance of the "Series 900" from discussing 9/11 even with their own families. The document threatens current FAA employees with firings and current and former FAA employees with cancellation of pensions.
#239. To: HOUNDDAWG (#236)
Well, on a moral scale just how far do you believe it is from taking advantage of the social security swindle to actively aiding the govt in its plunder?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#240. To: buckeroo (#238)
(Edited)
I suppose you read a lot of stuff on the Internet AND as a result... you believe it is ALL true.
#241. To: randge (#240)
I invite you, Buck, to show that these gag orders are not in force or that they never existed.
#242. To: buckeroo (#241)
Ya want me to prove the existence of faeries or perhaps leprechauns, do ya?
#243. To: randge, Original_Intent (#242)
What I'm asking you to do is simply what you require of Original Intent.
Which explains the gag order that is still in effect on the Air Traffic Controllers today.
Eat me.
#244. To: buckeroo (#243)
Eat me.
#245. To: randge (#237)
#246. To: HOUNDDAWG (#245)
Excellent find
#247. To: randge (#246)
I wish to God that someone could get DOCUMENTS and not just ancient posts into a court of law with the perps in the dock.
#248. To: HOUNDDAWG (#247)
nobody can stack a jury like the feds.
#249. To: FormerLurker (#154)
Like I said, there is very little chance of there even BEING an accessbile interface such as USB anywhere in the cockpit, never mind the rest.
#250. To: randge, christine, Jethro Tull, James_Deffenbach (#248)
Sounds like you know how to un-stack 'em.
#251. To: TooConservative (#160)
(Edited)
Me: Quick, tell us your theory of why WTC 7 fell.
#252. To: TooConservative (#164)
FormerLurker: Or maybe it was some Jew technicians.
#253. To: GreyLmist (#252)
Really? I didn't get that impression when you were making who-how suggestions about suborned Muzzie aircraft technicians.
#254. To: James Deffenbach (#227)
(Edited)
Wouldn't you love to have a lawn that a big-@$$ commercial jet could slam into and it wouldn't even leave a mark? Must be some mighty fine grass. What is hard to understand though is why the emergency vehicles, much smaller and lighter, damaged it some. A real puzzler.
Tired of Your Lawn Being Destroyed
When a Plane Crashes on it?
Never Fear They had the Amazing Pentalawn 2000™
#255. To: Original_Intent (#254)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#256. To: James Deffenbach (#255)
#257. To: Original_Intent (#256)
I almost miss BeachOoser.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#258. To: James Deffenbach (#257)
#259. To: Original_Intent (#258)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
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