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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: Former senator, engineers offer ‘proof’ of 9/11 controlled demolitions
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/ ... rs-911-controlled-demolitions/
Published: Sep 10, 2010
Author: Raw Story
Post Date: 2010-09-10 10:43:08 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 14789
Comments: 259

The nine-year-old body of 9/11 conspiracy theories includes many improbable (and sometimes contradictory) claims, everything from remote-controlled planes flying into the World Trade Center, to a missile hitting the Pentagon, to mass kidnappings of air passengers.

But a group of more than 1,200 architects and engineers is building what it hopes is a scientifically sound argument about one 9/11 claim: That the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed not by fires caused by the airplane collisions, but by a controlled demolition.

At a press conference in Washington DC, Thursday, the group Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth offered evidence "that all three WTC skyscrapers on September 11, 2001, in NYC were destroyed by explosive controlled demolition."

The third building the group referred to was World Trade Center 7, a skyscraper that collapsed about eight hours after the main WTC towers fell. For many 9/11 "truthers," WTC7's collapse despite not being hit by a plane is the "smoking gun" proving that something other than airplanes brought down the towers. The WTC7 collapse was not addressed in the official 9/11 Commission report.

"That building fell completely into its own footprint," blogger Andrew Steele told WKTV in Utica. "You can watch on YouTube yourself and use your own common sense. Even if you don't have a scientific background ... if you have two eyes, you can see that fire alone did not bring down that building."

His claims, and those of the 1,270 architects and engineers who have signed on to the effort, were bolstered by the support of former Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel, who said in a press release that "critically important evidence has come forward after the original government building reports were completed."

Gravel has been concerned with the events of September 11, 2001, for some time now. He has called for an independent investigation into 9/11.

"Unlike the first investigation, this commission should be granted subpoena power and full access to all governmental files and personnel," Gravel wrote. "George Bush should be forced to testify ALONE."

San Francisco architect Richard Gage said the way the towers collapsed was consistent with a controlled demolition, not a chaotic structural collapse.

"The official FEMA and NIST reports provide insufficient, contradictory, and fraudulent accounts of the circumstances of the towers' destruction," Gage said. "We are therefore calling for a grand jury investigation of NIST officials."

But Gage added that "government investigators at the NIST have been forced to acknowledge the free-fall descent, an indicting fact, after being presented with analysis by AE911Truth petition signers."

On its Web site, the architects' and engineers' group lists facts that suggest explosives were used to take down the towers.

-- Rapid onset of "collapse" -- Sounds of explosions at ground floor - a second before the building's destruction -- Symmetrical "structural failure" -- through the path of greatest resistance -- at free-fall acceleration -- Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds -- Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional -- FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples

WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e. -- Slow onset with large visible deformations -- Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires) -- High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never "collapsed". Debunking9/11, a Web site devoted to disproving the claims of 9/11 "truthers," argues that no aircraft was needed to bring down WTC7, because "while building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner, it was hit by the large perimeter columns of the Tower collapse. It was 400 ft away but the towers were more than 1300 ft tall. As the tower peeled open, it easily tilted over to reach building 7."

"Truthers" and debunkers have been arguing for years over whether the scant photographic evidence of WTC7's south side after the main towers' collapse shows enough damage to justify the building's collapse.

"All the buildings just as far away from both towers as WTC7 were hit," Debunking9/11 asserts. "The others were either very short buildings which didn't have to support a massive load above or had no fire. Only Building 7 had unfought fires and the massive load of 40 stories above them."

"Justice for all."

What's wrong with calling for a transparent, internationally-supported investigation? I want to know what happened that day to all of those buildings, and I want the chain of events that happened up to their collapse. Don't care how ugly the truth is, I just want to know. Why is asking for an independent investigation so bad?

I'm not an engineering expert, but ALL of the buildings collapsing (WTC 1, 2, 7) look just like every other controlled demolition video I've seen from around the world. The pieces of the day's events (NORAD, Bin Laden's family being sent out, etc) don't fit together right. It just smells fishy.

Who got fired for not doing their job? Who went to jail for criminal negligence? People of authority responding "nothing to see here, move along" aren't helping convince me that what we're being told is the truth. I just want to see Justice.

Isn't wanting "Justice for all" patriotic?

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#38. To: randge, TooConservative (#35)

TooCon doesn't have to look at the evidence in order to make his judgment.

He is all knowing.


...it's a strange time, you can't sleep, you surf, and surf, you feel angry, you read essays and you have nowhere to hide from NO PLANE THEORY... I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I'M NO ONE'S BITCH I WON'T PRETEND TO BELIEVE NO MATTER HOW INCONVENIENT IT IS...

wudidiz  posted on  2010-09-10   21:21:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Itistoolate (#29)

Excellent video, thankyou.

Lysander_Spooner  posted on  2010-09-10   21:29:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Lysander_Spooner, wudidiz (#36)

Ah, another Authoritarian outs himself, lol.

No. I was pointing out that Truthers operate as a variety of cultists but not under any central control, have no messianic or charismatic leader.

Anyway, I can see you guys have gathered for another of your little Truther circle jerks and that's just not my scene so I'll leave you to the moaning sounds of your little echo chamber.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   22:32:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: wudidiz (#38)

TooCon doesn't have to look at the evidence in order to make his judgment.

I am well aware that cultists often have compiled obsessive lists with which to bombard any poor soul that falls into their clutches.

So, no, I don't generally look at your "evidence". Especially since it rarely turns out to be what you claim it to be.

As it turns out, Truther fanatics are pretty untruthful. Funny how that works.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   22:34:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: TooConservative (#41)

So, no, I don't generally look at your "evidence".

Do you ever look at ANY evidence that doesn't "catapult the propaganda" of the government's official fairy tale? Seriously, do you believe the tale they told about the events of 9/11?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   22:41:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: James Deffenbach (#42)

Seriously, do you believe the tale they told about the events of 9/11?

I've said many times that I don't believe they held a complete investigation, that much was withheld or simply ignored.

That doesn't mean I'm jumping through the Looking Glass just becuase you think I should.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   22:50:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: TooConservative (#43)

lots of people did do a thurough investigation of many aspects of the sept 11'th events. You should read their information. Lots of people sacrificed careers to put that info together. Some people died trying to spread that info too.

Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-09-10   22:55:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: TooConservative (#43)

I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't, do anything. I was just curious if you believed the bs story they told about it. About how some raghead in a cave overwhelmed what is alleged to be the best military force in the world and caused NORAD to stand down, melted steel with Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™ and all the other insane things they would have you believe. I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night and I don't believe their wild tale for a minute and think people who do have some serious issues and need help.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   22:56:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: James Deffenbach (#45)

I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't, do anything. I was just curious if you believed the bs story they told about it. About how some raghead in a cave overwhelmed what is alleged to be the best military force in the world and caused NORAD to stand down, melted steel with Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™ and all the other insane things they would have you believe.

I think there is a lot we haven't been told, much more they won't allow to be investigated.

Like how this bunch should have been caught and deported before 9/11.

Like how it appears (to me) that the attack was timed to coincide with our civil defense drills.

Like how maybe a lot of buildings really aren't up to the published specs, despite (corrupt) inspectors. Or there is something even more fundamentally wrong with their design.

I do find it ironic that I reject the official 9/11 Commission Report as a complete and truthful account, something that many people would think makes me a Truther but you guys are on another planet from me.

Some of you guys are the rather exotic Truther types. Some of you have got your antigravity and energy weapons (from the alien UFO stuff at Area 51) and nano-thermite and mini-nukes.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   23:22:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: TooConservative, James Deffenbach (#45)

...and need help....

...that's where we come in.


...it's a strange time, you can't sleep, you surf, and surf, you feel angry, you read essays and you have nowhere to hide from NO PLANE THEORY... I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I'M NO ONE'S BITCH I WON'T PRETEND TO BELIEVE NO MATTER HOW INCONVENIENT IT IS...

wudidiz  posted on  2010-09-10   23:24:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: TooConservative (#46)

Like how this bunch should have been caught and deported before 9/11.

Who, Bush and Cheney?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   23:25:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: TooConservative (#46)

Some of you guys are the rather exotic Truther types. Some of you have got your antigravity and energy weapons (from the alien UFO stuff at Area 51) and nano-thermite and mini-nukes.

Mmmmmmmmm...

mini-nukes.


...it's a strange time, you can't sleep, you surf, and surf, you feel angry, you read essays and you have nowhere to hide from NO PLANE THEORY... I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I'M NO ONE'S BITCH I WON'T PRETEND TO BELIEVE NO MATTER HOW INCONVENIENT IT IS...

wudidiz  posted on  2010-09-10   23:26:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: TooConservative (#46)

I do find it ironic that I reject the official 9/11 Commission Report as a complete and truthful account

That's nothing, even the people who worked on it said it was crap.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   23:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: wudidiz (#47)

...that's where we come in.

Well, we can try to help.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   23:28:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: James Deffenbach, TooConservative (#51) (Edited)

Like how maybe a lot of buildings really aren't up to the published specs, despite (corrupt) inspectors. Or there is something even more fundamentally wrong with their design.

They gotta stop making them out of concrete and steel. They just crumble everytime someone puts explosives in them.


...it's a strange time, you can't sleep, you surf, and surf, you feel angry, you read essays and you have nowhere to hide from NO PLANE THEORY... I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I'M NO ONE'S BITCH I WON'T PRETEND TO BELIEVE NO MATTER HOW INCONVENIENT IT IS...

wudidiz  posted on  2010-09-10   23:31:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: James Deffenbach (#51)

Well, we can try to help.

Why, you're like a missionary, called to saving the perspiring masses from their evil leaders.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   23:36:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: wudidiz (#52)

They gotta stop making them out of concrete and steel. They just crumble everytime someone puts explosives in them.

I'm very suspicious of construction quality on the eastern seaboard. I've expected for many years to hear news that New York City just collapsed entirely.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   23:38:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: wudidiz (#52)

They gotta stop making them out of concrete and steel. They just crumble everytime someone puts explosives in them.

I think 7 got hit with a few drops of the Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™. No plane hit it so that must be the explanation.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   23:42:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: James Deffenbach (#55)

I think 7 got hit with a few drops of the Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™. No plane hit it so that must be the explanation.

I've always said WTC7 is the Truthers' strongest case. There simply is no good explanation even offered for what happened to it.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-10   23:44:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: TooConservative (#56)

7 is "the smoking gun." No way to explain it other than controlled demolition. Many skyscrapers have had fires that burned much longer and much hotter and never fell. And yet, we have three in one day, none of which should have fallen even with the planes hitting them (and of course no plane hit 7 at all). The chief engineer on the project said that a plane strike would be like a pencil going through a mosquito netting or a screen on a door. Make a hole where it went in but the building could withstand it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-09-10   23:51:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: James Deffenbach, wudidiz, all (#57)

Check out my new 9/11-related thread. Sure looks like some coverup is going on.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-11   1:07:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: TooConservative, RickyJ (#12)

The 9/11 Truth movement peaked 3-4 years ago, part of the Bush-hate peddled by the old elements of the "professional Left", namely the old academic commie ideologues that led the "antiwar" movement (but think Obongo-war is just fine).

The future of the Truther movement is declining numbers, an ongoing stream of literature by clever con-men to peddle to the faithful as the decades unfold until all of you die off around 2070 or so.

These conspiracy groups are like cults. One key difference is that they do not have a single leader but have many nutjob leaders. It is a form of cultism that is personally defined, not under rigid central control.

Yeah those "Architects and Engineers" are known for the cult tendencies.

But, what does it say about you that you pride yourself on your Rove-Gannon-Speak? (which comically enough mirrors Hillary's allegations of a "vast right wing conspiracy")

And this press conference in the nation's capital was two days ago. Hardly evidence of a movement past its prime. Especially since none of the proof is worthy of point by point rebuttal. You and your ilk are only interested in frantic attempts at character assassination or clowning.

You can keep whistling past the cemetery but keep your passports current.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-09-11   3:52:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Rube Goldberg, TooConservative (#8) (Edited)

The guy crashed a taxi and he's a nutjob? He would have been my choice for president if it weren't for Ron Paul. I was impressed with what he had to say. That he is a truther only validates my nearlier impression.

One concern of mine is any member of AK's congressional delegation must use airplanes, and it's not unusual for them to use small bush and float planes to reach the interior and extreme coastal areas.

This is the reason that more than a few famous people and politicians have gone down and died in plane crashes, and it would make it very easy to eliminate any potential problem, like former Sen. Ted Stevens and 9/11 widow Beverly Eckert. (who died in a passenger turboprop crash in New York)

If I was part of that delegation I'd resolve to never fly home again or to keep my mouth shut when talking about something that will ultimately lead to the Mossad and criminals in the US govt and Israel's amen corner.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-09-11   4:02:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: HOUNDDAWG (#60)

One concern of mine is any member of AK's congressional delegation must use airplanes, and it's not unusual for them to use small bush and float planes to reach the interior and extreme coastal areas.

I think you'll find Gravel is in no danger.

In fact, I think the gooberment would love it if you designated him as the official spokesman for Truth.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-11   8:36:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: HOUNDDAWG (#59)

You can keep whistling past the cemetery but keep your passports current.

Yes, I know. For the coming day of the Great Awakening of the Truth of 9/11. When you, the faithful saints, will pursue all unbelievers and put them in prison or something.

I've read these kinds of veiled threats from the Truthers for years. I find them quite humorous.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-11   8:40:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Ada (#0)

WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire

The few small fires in WTC 7 could probably have been put out with fire extinguishers. Yet, WTC 7 witness, Barry Jennings (who surfaced through Dylan Avery of Loose Change) mentions no such firefighting attempts by him or anyone else. In fact, his testimony sounds more like a vaudville act: In case of fire, break glass. And apparently that's all he deemed it was of use to him for under the circumstances -- breaking out a window.

Only Building 7 had unfought fires

So why is that? Evidently, there were fire extinguishers on the premises and broken water lines don't explain it either because there was also this on the scene:

9/11 Fireboat That Could - the John J. Harvey
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129435&page=1

N E W Y O R K, Sept. 14

— In the panic of Sept. 11, 2001, as tens of thousands of people tried to leave the island of Manhattan, an aging boat once headed for the scrap heap became a hero of sorts.

On 9/11, the John J. Harvey raced to Pier 11, evacuating 150 terrified, dust- covered people.

Then came a second call. Firemen battling blazes at the World Trade Center had no water because the twin towers had fallen on the water lines.

"The water mains were destroyed, so there was no other source of water available, except for the river," said Tim Ivory, a mechanic who is Harvey's engineer.

The fireboat works by sucking in the water it floats on. The Harvey's pumps can shoot 20,000 gallons a minute.

Retired by the New York City Fire Department in 1994, the Harvey was supposed to be sold for scrap, but eight fireboat lovers bought it in 1999.

They were thinking of making it a floating bar when Ivory said, "Wait, I think we can make it work again." And they did, having no idea how useful it would prove be.

For three days, the Harvey joined three active-duty fireboats to provide the only water there was to keep the 9/11 fires from getting worse. [end excerpt]

--------

Floating bar...Ivory...soap commercial? Ya can't make this stuff up, right? In any case, they have some 'splaining to do about why 3 fireboats, which could pump about 20,000 gallons a minute each, were available there but "Building 7 had unfought fires". At the very least, Guilliani and his whole office of Emergency Management should be arrested for public endangerment through their gross negligence and mismanagement of the situation.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-09-13   9:49:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: TooConservative (#5)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2010-09-14   9:33:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: ghostdogtxn (#64)

And your problem is that you can watch a building free fall into its own footprint and cannot open your mind to the likelihood that it was a controlled demo.

I'm open to it. I just require evidence, a trait lacking among Truthers who jump to claim wild conspiracies, nano-thermite, antigravity and energy weapons, and Area 51 technology from UFOs was used to bring down WTC.

The Truthers have never weeded out the con-men and nutjobs in their ranks. That's probably the major reason why people think they are kooks, because they let kooks speak for them. I expect this pattern will continue because the Truthers still don't grasp how damaging this is and how it plays into the hands of those who want to promulgate the gooberment's ridiculous "investigation" and the 9/11 Commission report.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-14   11:40:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: TooConservative (#12)

The future of the Truther movement is declining numbers, an ongoing stream of literature by clever con-men to peddle to the faithful as the decades unfold until all of you die off around 2070 or so.

These conspiracy groups are like cults.

yeah, just like those who still continue to talk about the Kennedy assassination, huh? i believe that the 9/11 truth movement is global and that only those working for government in some capacity or another and have their selfish asses to protect are the majority of those who continue to believe the government CONSPIRACY.

con•spir•a•cy
1 : the act of conspiring together
2 a : an agreement among conspirators b : a group of conspirators syn see plot

christine  posted on  2010-09-14   12:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: christine (#66)

yeah, just like those who still continue to talk about the Kennedy assassination, huh? i believe that the 9/11 truth movement is global and that only those working for government in some capacity or another and have their selfish asses to protect are the majority of those who continue to believe the government CONSPIRACY.

Good heavens.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-09-14   12:17:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: TooConservative (#65)

I posted a link showing that there were 3 working fireboats in the area. If you think WTC 7 fell because of unfought fires, what's your explanation for that in light of the firefighting Harvey and other two crews of a nautical sort on duty?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-09-14   12:29:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: christine (#66)

yeah, just like those who still continue to talk about the Kennedy assassination, huh?

Exactly like that, yes. Do you want to buy into the Cubans or the Mafia or the CIA or Mossad or...well...one of the dozen or so other major theories about JFK out there? And many of them are totally ridiculous, presenting the kind of "evidence" you'd expect to find about some story in National Enquirer about some woman who got pregnant with Elvis' baby when she was abducted by a UFO in a three-way with Bigfoot.

i believe that the 9/11 truth movement is global

No doubt, it is stronger overseas where expectations of gross government corruption and criminality are visible on a daily basis. Especially in the Third World.

This is essentially another false numbers idea that is popular but entirely false.

It doesn't matter who believes what or how many. The truth is the truth and you have to have evidence, not a pack of con-men spinning nonsense for gullible people wherever they are located around the world. I, for one, don't give a rat's ass what people as ignorant as the Afghans or the Egyptians or the Nigerians or Kenyans think about anything (since I would first have to care that these medieval barbarians even exist).

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-14   12:31:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: GreyLmist (#68)

I posted a link showing that there were 3 working fireboats in the area. If you think WTC 7 fell because of unfought fires, what's your explanation for that in light of the firefighting Harvey and other two crews of a nautical sort on duty?

I thought you included the retired fireboat too. That is a nice little story about that boat.

Anyway, I never said anything about WTC 7 falling because of unfought fires. I challenge you to find any remark I've made to that effect.

I have said steadfastly that WTC 7 is the Truthers' strongest case, I have said that they should pursue that relentlessly because that is the weakest point in the supposed government investigation of 9/11. I think you can move public opinion in your direction with it, possibly even get a major new investigation opened and get access to more evidence.

So you might want to stop making up stuff that I did not say and actually deal with the things that I do say.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-14   12:35:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: TooConservative, Christine (#69)

It doesn't matter who believes what or how many

As an affirmation of my own Cynicism...

A few days ago I reread the eyewitness accounts of the people present at the Pentagon crash. They ranged from Americans to foreign tourists, from ranking military employees to out of work janitors, all with ONE thing in common, THEY HAPPENED TO BE NEAR OR PASSING THE PENTAGON WHEN THEY SAW AN ....AMERICAN AIRLINES...AIRCRAFT PASS BY AND HIT THE PENTAGON.

Without stating the obvious, it is difficult to abide endless discussion about the matter, it only muddies the waters that hide the real people we need to know.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-09-14   12:57:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: TooConservative, christine (#69)

Exactly like that, yes. Do you want to buy into the Cubans or the Mafia or the CIA or Mossad or...well...one of the dozen or so other major theories about JFK out there?

The fact is, all of the actual evidence indicates there WAS a major conspiracy involved in the execution and coverup of JFK's assassination.

YOUR point of view hangs on a "magic bullet" which can defy the laws of physics and do the impossible, hence the name, "magic bullet".

You ALSO rely on the Warren Commission's report as your "factual investigation", where it was run by those who had enourmous conflicts of interests, such as Allen Dulles, and others who could well have been in on the conspiracy itself.

The evidence indicates Oswald was buying a can of soda from a vending machine seconds before the shots were fired, where it would have been impossible for him to have ran to the window, positioned himself, and had any chance at all of hitting his target. He wouldn't have even been able to reach the window in time to take the shot.

Yet you are SO eager to believe what you are TOLD to believe, you more than likely would never in a million years accept that fact.

Never mind the fact Oswald "defected" to the USSR at the height of the Cold War while stationed at a Marine Corps Air Station in Japan, married a Soviet wife, then was allowed to return to the US with his wife, while being PAID by the State Department to do so. Never mind the fact that Oswald was intricately connected to the CIA, and that there were MANY such individuals involved in the events which led up to that fateful day in Dallas.

Oh no, any deviation from the Warren Commission report is akin to Bigfoot marrying Elvis on a UFO. Yeah right.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-09-14   13:20:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: TooConservative (#69)

This is essentially another false numbers idea that is popular but entirely false.

What evidence is there that 9/11 was perpetrated by the 19 named individuals?

Hint: Some of them are still alive and well, and have been reported as such in the world press.

The manuevers performed by the aircraft that day could NOT have been performed by somebody who never flew a jet in their lives, yet NONE of them had ever flown a jet, and not one of them was even a mediocre pilot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-09-14   13:23:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Cynicom (#71)

A few days ago I reread the eyewitness accounts of the people present at the Pentagon crash. They ranged from Americans to foreign tourists, from ranking military employees to out of work janitors, all with ONE thing in common, THEY HAPPENED TO BE NEAR OR PASSING THE PENTAGON WHEN THEY SAW AN ....AMERICAN AIRLINES...AIRCRAFT PASS BY AND HIT THE PENTAGON.

The infamous 16' hole that some Truthers have made so much of is a goofball theory (peddled by con-men who know better IMO) and is one of these various MIHOP "theories" that is completely incredible outside the circles of the most gullible and conspiracy-minded Truthers.

They create the impression that the 16' hole is in the outside wall of the Pentagon when it is actually a hole left several sections inside the Pentagon and the entire outer facade was demolished. Only a con-man could peddle this crap. But libmedia uses this to discredit all those who are dissatisfied with the 9/11 investigations, whether they call themselves Truthers or not. And that is many, perhaps a majority, of Americans who are dissatisfied with the completeness of the 9/11 Commission.

One rapidly tires of "debating" people this stupid or gullible. Then they call you names, an "unbeliever" found like a snake in their midst. It actually becomes so comical you can't actually stay mad at them. This is why I normally don't even enter 9/11 threads but I recently made the mistake of making some comment when one of the Truthers had to drag a goofy pet theory onto a completely unrelated thread and now they keep dragging me to these threads.

All that said, I don't believe for one second that we ever got anything like a full investigation of 9/11 and a proper explanation. And the fact that we didn't when the gooberment will spend millions on studies to find out how many college men wank off or investigating the sex life of Brazilian beetles or billions on Israel, fake "AIDS" in Africa, global hotting "science", etc. makes it clear that there was something that they definitely do not want us to know. It smells, big time. A stench even bigger than the laughable Warren Commission report.

TooConservative  posted on  2010-09-14   13:48:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: TooConservative (#74)

I read a lot of the truth posts, comment on few or none, nothing to be gained by doing so.

Absurdity is a lost cause on many.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-09-14   13:54:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: TooConservative, Cynicom (#74) (Edited)

THEY HAPPENED TO BE NEAR OR PASSING THE PENTAGON WHEN THEY SAW AN ....AMERICAN AIRLINES...AIRCRAFT PASS BY AND HIT THE PENTAGON.

BULLSHIT.

Few if any actually saw anything hit the Pentagon, although many saw SOMETHING in the way of an aircraft pass over them or nearby, and many saw the aftermath.

Fact is, there are TWO sets of witnesses. One group places the aircraft's approach from south of the nearby Citgo station, this is the official story's approach path. Thing is, the SECOND group of witnesses place the approach NORTH of the Citgo station. This group includes two Pentagon police officers, both of which were at two separate locations near the Citgo station that morning.

This means there had to have been TWO aircraft which witnesses identified as Flight 77. At least one of them didn't hit the building, that much is obvious.

As far as the accuracy of the "eye witness" testimony, one so-called witness stated that the plane's wing hit the ground and it tumbled into the Pentagon. No such thing happened, since there were no marks on the lawn and the damage to the Pentagon would be consistent with the flight path of an object traveling nose first. If it had tumbled, it would have exploded and broken up on the lawn and not penetrated the building.

In fact, early reports indicate "no plane hit" the Pentagon...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-09-14   14:09:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Cynicom (#75)

Absurdity is a lost cause on many.

You and TC live by that motto apparently, thing is, it's self fullfulling in both your cases.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-09-14   14:13:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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