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(s)Elections
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Title: Americans Renew Call for Third Party
Source: gallop
URL Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/143051/A ... ns-Renew-Call-Third-Party.aspx
Published: Sep 19, 2010
Author: Jeffrey M. Jones
Post Date: 2010-09-19 14:03:13 by abraxas
Keywords: None
Views: 893
Comments: 79

Americans Renew Call for Third Party

Fifty-eight percent of Americans, and 62% of Tea Party supporters, favor third partyb y Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans' desires for a third political party are as high as they have been in seven years. Fifty-eight percent of Americans believe a third major political party is needed because the Republican and Democratic Parties do a poor job of representing the American people. That is a significant increase from 2008 and ties the high Gallup has recorded for this measure since 2003.

The finding, based on an Aug. 27-30 USA Today/Gallup poll, comes at a time when Americans are widely dissatisfied with the way things are going in the United States and give relatively weak approval ratings to the president and Congress.

Though the rise in support for a third party could be linked to the Tea Party movement, Tea Party supporters are just about average in terms of wanting to see a third party created. Sixty-two percent of those who describe themselves as Tea Party supporters would like a third major party formed, but so do 59% of those who are neutral toward the Tea Party movement. Tea Party opponents are somewhat less likely to see the need for a third party.

The desire for a third party is fairly similar across ideological groups, with 61% of liberals, 60% of moderates, and 54% of conservatives believing a third major party is needed. That is a narrower gap than Gallup has found in the past; conservatives have typically been far less likely than liberals and moderates to support the creation of a third party.

Independents, as might be expected given their lack of primary allegiance to either of the two major parties, express a greater degree of support (74%) for a third party than do Republicans (47%) and Democrats (45%). Over time, independents have consistently been the political group most eager to see a third party formed. But each party group is more likely now than in 2008 to support the formation of a third major party. At that time, about two months before the presidential election, 38% of Democrats, 40% of Republicans, and 63% of independents thought a third party was necessary.

Bottom Line

Election results in recent years and polls from this year indicate Americans are frustrated with the job the two major parties have been doing. In 2006, voters elected a Democratic majority in Congress to replace the Republican majority, and in 2008 they elected a Democratic president to replace an outgoing Republican president. Polling on voters' 2010 voting intentions suggests that they may be poised to replace the Democratic majority in Congress with a Republican majority. But that seems to be as much because voters are rejecting Democrats as embracing Republicans.

Given the lack of alternatives, it perhaps is no surprise that Americans' desires for a third party are as high as they've been in at least the last seven years. And while the formation of an official third party is not imminent, that desire may be manifested in voters' strong anti-incumbent sentiments this year.

Survey Methods Results for this USA Today/Gallup poll are based on telephone interviews conducted Aug. 27-30, 2010, with a random sample of 1,021 adults, aged 18 and older, living in the continental U.S., selected using random-digit-dial sampling.

For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points.

Interviews are conducted with respondents on landline telephones (for respondents with a landline telephone) and cellular phones (for respondents who are cell phone-only). Each sample includes a minimum quota of 150 cell phone-only respondents and 850 landline respondents, with additional minimum quotas among landline respondents for gender within region. Landline respondents are chosen at random within each household on the basis of which member had the most recent birthday.

Samples are weighted by gender, age, race, education, region, and phone lines. Demographic weighting targets are based on the March 2009 Current Population Survey figures for the aged 18 and older non-institutionalized population living in continental U.S. telephone households. All reported margins of sampling error include the computed design effects for weighting and sample design.

In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

View methodology, full question results, and trend data.

For more details on Gallup's polling methodology, visit http://www.gallup.com/.

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#23. To: abraxas (#15)

This right of center, left of center, dog and pony show ignores that both parties, no matter the degree from center, DON'T REPRESENT THE PEOPLE. Both parties are CORPORATE WHORES.
Yes, multiple parties would be great. But, first people need to accept the painful truth that neither the Dems nor the Pubbies represent the interests of the people or the Constitution. Until this happens, you will see more of the same, not less.

I do not disagree with any of that.
My issue is that a third party attempting to usurp the Repubs will spit the vote giving the Dems a win by plurality.
The Repubs are not perfect, but they are still better than a Dem.
They are the lesser or two evils.

Instead of challenging the Repubs with a third party and ensuring leftest domination, take over the Repubs from within.
Make the party what we want.

If you go the 3rd party route, you might as well vote for the Democrat, because that's what we will get regardless.
Who then shall I blame?

-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.

Armadillo  posted on  2010-09-20   20:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: abraxas (#0)

as long as it comes with fries, i always vote yes.

__________________________________

________________________________

gengis gandhi  posted on  2010-09-20   20:15:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Armadillo (#23)

This is by far and away the most practical way to get from *here* to *there*

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-09-20   20:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Armadillo (#23)

Instead of challenging the Repubs with a third party and ensuring leftest domination, take over the Repubs from within. Make the party what we want.

Well, Dillo, GW Bush made it painfully clear to me that the Pubbie party CANNOT be saved. Just look at it will ya: Linsay Graham, McConnell, McCain, Ensign. Corporate Toadies every one. It's too corrupt.....just like the Dems.

You still aren't getting it. These two parties are two sides of the SAME COIN. This notion that one is better than the other is silly and only by an insignificant degree. We need a party FOR the people, neither R nor D will do FOR the people.

We will never make the Pubbies what we want. They are corporate whores, not whores for the people. Ditto for Dems. I don't care if you blame me, but I will not continue on with the farce that there is a rats hair worth of

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-20   20:30:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: noone222 (#21)

I'd like to see the entire nation quit paying FEDERAL taxes, corporations and stop doing business with anything resembling a credit/banking corporation.

Me too. I gotta tell ya Noone, thinking about this crap makes me sick to my stomach. What we have here is a systematic gutting of this nation, equal part Dem and equal part Rep, with less than a handful of asswipes in DC actually representing the people.

Sigh. People sure are true believers when it comes to the two party fraud. When will they learn?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-20   20:35:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Armadillo (#22)

I've never seen the Green party pose any real threat to the Dems, at least not here.

They were enough of a threat that the Dems infiltrated and destroyed the party. Same thing the Republicans are doing now with AIP. If you had told me 3 or 4 years ago that this was the case I would not have believed it. However having now lived it, I know it to be true. The same people who are working to destroy AIP already did it to the Reform Party.


"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-09-20   20:52:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: abraxas, Armadillo, Original_Intent, Artisan, noone222, Jethro Tull, christine, *Constitution Party* (#26)

We will never make the Pubbies what we want.

I agree. Having seen the games that are played with the party power structure it is impossible. You get a ruling elite in the party structure that is CFR and/or a lackey there of and they will bend the rules, break the rules etc in order to keep their power structure and thus their agenda. You all saw what happened to the Ron Paul people in Nevada. That is a prime example of everywhere. It is disgusting, dishonest and a royal pain in the ass to deal with.


"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-09-20   20:58:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: abraxas (#26)

the Pubbie party CANNOT be saved

BINGO! McStain was just icing on the cake.

Do we need to go back further, to Herbie Bush and Bud Drole?


My joy over McCain's defeat, is offset by my disappointment over hObama's victory.

hondo68  posted on  2010-09-20   21:01:16 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: farmfriend (#29)

You all saw what happened to the Ron Paul people in Nevada.

Dick Armey controls the TEA Party. He is the same GOP punk that aided in the failed "Contract for America" with his sidekick, Newt Gingrich.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-09-20   21:02:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: buckeroo, *Constitution Party*, *Bilderberg and NWO Watch* (#31)

Well that is the thing. The Republicans see the Tea Party as a threat to the NWO agenda. They have and will infiltrate and try to destroy or drive the agenda by leading it. This is Palin's job and well as Army.


"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-09-20   21:06:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: farmfriend, all (#29)

I did a 3rd party twice, one Perot in '92 & one Buchanan in '00. See my above comments to Abraxas regarding the endless obstacles both parties have installed to ensure a near zero success rate. IMO, a 3rd party can't be done unless a billionaire appeared from nowhere and thought like us and was willing to spend many hundreds of millions of his own dollars on the effort. I'm sorry to be a downer, but that's been my experience.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-09-20   21:08:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: farmfriend (#32)

I want a third political party to offset or counterbalance the weights of those two HUGE do-nothing BEHEMOTHS plastered on the front pages.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-09-20   21:12:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: hondo68 (#30)

Do we need to go back further, to Herbie Bush and Bud Drole?

lol....those traitors should have been a clue. But noooooooooooooooo. Hence, more idiots year in and year out. They only say what people want to hear at election time, like McStain complainng about the dream act when just a short time ago he was El Amigo por Amnesty. Yet, they voted for him to run AGAIN. I vote for him to just run away, south of the border please.

It's insanity that we the people continue to sail in this sea of corruption, awaiting the sinking that is sure to come while the crew continues to blame one side or the other of the two party fraud.

As for me, I'm jumping ship, enough is enough.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-20   21:37:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: All (#33)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballot_access

Ballot access laws in the United States vary widely from state to state. A brief outline of such laws follows (incomplete).

Alabama: Major party candidates are nominated by the state primary process. Independent candidates are granted ballot access through a petition process and minor political party candidates are nominated by convention along with a petition process; one must collect 3% of the total votes cast in the last election for the specific race or 3% of the total votes cast in the last gubernatorial election for state-wide ballot access. The figure for 2006 state wide ballot access was 41,012 good signatures. Be aware that the validity of signatures generally means that 20-30% more signatures will need to be collected to ensure that the goal is achieved. To retain ballot access a third party has to poll 20% in a state wide race and it will retain state wide ballot access through to the next election.

Activists of the Arizona Green Party collecting signatures for ballot status.Arizona: To gain ballot access, a new political party must gather signatures on a county by county basis, achieving over 20,000 good signatures from registered voters. Once this has been achieved the party must run a candidate for Governor or President who garners at least 5% of the vote to maintain ballot access for an additional two years, maintain at least 1% of registered voters registered with their party, or gather approximately the same number of signatures again every two years. The Democratic, Libertarian, and Republican parties have ballot access by voter registrations. In 2008, the Arizona Green Party gathered enough signatures to gain ballot access.[7] California: Per section 5100 of the California Election Code, ballot access requires one of the two conditions below to be met.[8]

If at the last preceding gubernatorial election there was polled for any one of the party's candidates for any office voted on throughout the state, at least 2 percent of the entire vote of the state.

If on or before the 135th day before any primary election, it appears to the Secretary of State, as a result of examining and totaling the statement of voters and their political affiliations transmitted to him or her by the county elections officials, that voters equal in number to at least 1 percent of the entire vote of the state at the last preceding gubernatorial election have declared their intention to affiliate with that party.

Colorado: Colorado has relatively lax ballot access requirements. For U.S. Senate, 1,000 signatures are required; for U.S. House, 800 signatures; for State Senate, 600 signatures; and for State House, 400. Sometimes these requirements are relaxed even further based on the voting statistics of the district.[9]

Maryland: Party certifications are done for each gubernatorial cycle (e.g. 2006– 2010). If the number of registered voters to a political party is less than 1%, then 10,000 petition signatures must be gathered for that party to be considered certified. A party must be certified before voters can register under that party. A party can also be certified for a two year term if their candidate receives more than 1% of the vote.

Minnesota: Major party candidates are nominated by the state primary process. Independent and minor political party candidates are nominated by a petition process; two-thousand signatures for a statewide election, or five hundred for a state legislative election. Candidates have two week period to collect nominating petition signatures. Independent candidates may select a brief political party designation in lieu of independent.

Missouri: Missouri exempts parties from needing to gather signatures if they attain 2% of the vote in a statewide election.[10]

North Carolina: North Carolina's law pertaining to ballot access is codified in N.C.G.S Chapter 163 Elections and Election Law:[11]

New Political Parties: According to N.C.G.S. §163-96(a)(2)[12][13] for a New Political Party to gain access to the election ballot they must obtain signatures on a petition equal to at least 2% of the total number of votes cast for Governor in the most recent election by no later than 12:00 noon on the first day of June before the election in which the Party wishes to participate.

In addition, at least 200 signatures must come from at least four separate US Congressional Districts each within the state. To qualify for the 2010 or 2012 election ballot a new political party must gather at least 85,379 signatures within approximately a 3.5 year time span, averaging at least 67 signatures every day for three and half years straight counting weekdays and holidays.[13] Political Party Retention Requirement: According to N.C.G.S. §163-96(a)(1)[14] in order for a political party to remain certified for the election ballot after obtaining access to the ballot, or to remain recognized by the State of North Carolina, that party must successfully garner at least 2% of the total vote cast for Governor for its candidate. If a party's candidate for Governor fails to receive at least 2% of the vote, that party loses ballot access (N.C.G.S. §163-97[15]) and must begin the petitioning process over again, and the voter affiliation of all registered voters affiliated with that party is changed to unaffiliated (N.C.G.S. §163-97.1[16]).

Statewide Unaffiliated Requirements: According to N.C.G.S. §163-122(a)(1)[17] in order for an unaffiliated candidate to qualify for the election ballot for a statewide office, the candidate must obtain signatures on a petition equal to at least 2% of the total number of votes caste for Governor in the most recent election by 12:00 noon on the last Friday in June before the election in which the candidate wishes to participate. In addition, at least 200 signatures must come from at least four separate US Congressional Districts each within the state. To qualify for the 2010 or 2012 election ballot unaffiliated statewide candidates must obtain at least 85,379 signatures.

District Unaffiliated Requirements: According to N.C.G.S. §163-122(a)(2-3)[17] in order for an unaffiliated candidate to qualify for the election ballot for a district office, the candidate must obtain signatures on a petition equal to at least 4% of the total number of registered voters within the district that the candidate is running for election in as of January 1 of the election year in which the candidate desires to appear on the election ballot. Signatures must be turned in by 12:00 noon on the last Friday in June before the election in which the candidate wishes to participate. District candidates effectively cannot start petitioning for ballot access until after January 1 of the election year they are running for election, giving them just under half a year to obtain signatures for ballot access. To qualify for the 2010 election ballot unaffiliated US Congressional candidates are required to obtain as many as 22,544 signatures and an average of 18,719 signatures required for access to the 2010 election ballot.[18]

Alabama: Major party candidates are nominated by the state primary process. Independent candidates are granted ballot access through a petition process and minor political party candidates are nominated by convention along with a petition process; one must collect 3% of the total votes cast in the last election for the specific race or 3% of the total votes cast in the last gubernatorial election for state-wide ballot access. The figure for 2006 state wide ballot access was 41,012 good signatures. Be aware that the validity of signatures generally means that 20-30% more signatures will need to be collected to ensure that the goal is achieved. To retain ballot access a third party has to poll 20% in a state wide race and it will retain state wide ballot access through to the next election.

North Dakota: Seven thousand petition signatures to create a new political party and nominate a slate of candidates for office. Independent candidates need a thousand for a statewide office or 300 for a state legislative office. The independent nominating petition process does not allow for candidates to appear on the ballot with a political party designation, in lieu of independent, except for presidential elections.[19]

Ohio: Late in 2006, the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals invalidated Ohio's law for ballot access for new political parties in a suit brought by the Libertarian Party of Ohio.[20] After the November elections, the outgoing Secretary of State and Attorney General requested an extension to file an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court so that the decision whether or not to appeal could be made by the newly elected Secretary of State and Attorney General. The new Secretary of State did not appeal, but instead asserted her authority as Chief Election Officer of Ohio to issue new ballot access rules. In July, 2008, a U.S. District Court invalidated the Secretary of State's rules and placed the Libertarian Party on the ballot.[21] Three other parties subsequently sued and were placed on the ballot by the Court or by the Secretary of State.

Oklahoma: A party is defined either as a group that polled 10% for the office at the top of the ticket in the last election (i.e., president or governor), or that submits a petition signed by voters equal to 5% of the last vote cast for the office at the top of the ticket. An independent presidential candidate, or the presidential candidate of an unqualified party, may get on the ballot with a petition of 3% of the last presidential vote. Oklahoma is the only state in the nation in which an independent presidential candidate, or the presidential candidate of a new or previously unqualified party, needs support from more than 2% of the last vote cast to get on the ballot. An initiative is being circulated during the period Sep. 14, 2007-Dec. 13, 2007 to lower the ballot access rules for political parties.

Pennsylvania: A new party or independent candidate may gain ballot access for one election as a "political body" by collecting petition signatures equal to 2 percent of the vote for the highest vote-getter in the most recent election in the jurisdiction. A political body that wins two percent of the vote obtained by the highest vote-getter statewide in the same election is recognized statewide as a "political party" for two years. A political party with a voter enrollment equal to less than 15 percent of the state's total partisan enrollment is classified as a "minor political party," which has automatic ballot access in special elections but must otherwise collect the same number of signatures as political bodies. Political parties not relegated to "minor" status qualify to participate in primary elections. Candidates may gain access to primary election ballots by collecting a set number of petition signatures for each office, generally significantly fewer than required for political bodies and minor political parties.

South Dakota: For a registered political party in a statewide election they must collect petition signatures equal to one percent of the vote for that political party in the preceding election for state governor. An independent candidate must collect petition signatures equal to one percent of the total votes for state governor, and a new political party must collect two-hundred and fifty petition signatures. In state legislative elections a registered political party needs to collect fifty signatures and an independent candidate must collect one percent of the total votes cast for state governor in the preceding election in their respective district.[22]

Tennessee: A candidate seeking a House or Senate seat at the state or national level must gather 25 signatures from registered voters to be put on the ballot for any elected office.[23][24][25][26] Presidential candidates seeking to represent an officially recognized party must either be named as candidates by the Tennessee Secretary of State or gather 2,500 signatures from registered voters, and an independent candidate for President must gather 275 signatures and put forward a full slate of eleven candidates who have agreed to serve as electors.[27] To be recognized as a party and have its candidates listed on the ballot under that party's name, a political party must gather signatures equal to or in excess of 2.5% of the total number of votes cast in the last gubernatorial election (about 45,000 signatures based on the election held in 2006).[28] The last third party to be officially recognized was the American Party in 1968; none of its candidates received five percent of the statewide vote in 1970 and it was then subject to desertification as an official party. [citation needed]

Texas: For a registered political party in a statewide election to gain ballot access, they must either 1) obtain five percent of the vote in any statewide election or 2) collect petition signatures equal to one percent of the total votes cast in the preceding election for governor, and must do so by January 2 of the year in which such statewide election is held. An independent candidate for any statewide office must collect petition signatures equal to one percent of the total votes cast for governor, and must do so beginning the day after primary elections are held and complete collection within 60 days thereafter (if runoff elections are held, the window is shortened to beginning the day after runoff elections are held and completed within 30 days thereafter). The petition signature cannot be from anyone who voted in either primary (including runoff), and voters cannot sign multiple petitions (they must sign a petition for one party or candidate only).[29]

Virginia: A candidate for any statewide or local office must be qualified to vote for as well as hold the office they are running for, must have been "a resident of the county, city or town which he offers at the time of filing", a resident of the district, if it is an election for a specific district, and a resident of Virginia for one year before the election. For any office the candidate must obtain signatures of at least 125 registered voters for the area where they are running for office (except in communities of fewer than 3,500 people, where the number is lower), and if they are running as a candidate from a political party where partisan elections are permitted, must pay a fee of 2% of their yearly salary (no fee is required for persons not running as a candidate for a primary of a political party). Petitions, along with additional paperwork, must be filed between about four and five months before the election, subject to additional requirements for candidates for a primary election.[30] 1,000 signatures are required for a U.S. House race and 10,000 for a statewide race (i.e. U.S. President, U.S. Senate, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, or Attorney General), including 400 from each Congressional district.

[31] Nominees of a political party that "at either of the two preceding statewide general elections, received at least 10 percent of the total vote cast for any statewide office filled in that election" are exempt from needing to gather signatures.[32]

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-09-20   21:38:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: farmfriend (#29)

You all saw what happened to the Ron Paul people in Nevada.

This made it crystal clear that the party COULD NOT be saved. Corrupt to the core, loaded up with Toadies who don't care about the Constitution or the people, just where their bread is buttered.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-20   21:42:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: abraxas, farmfriend (#26)

No, I "get it" just fine, thanks.

I'm just not willing to commit national suicide by giving the Dems unfettered control of everything while the 3rd party ensures your voice is never heard.
The people you rant against win by plurality while the other parties fight among themselves.

When the revolution comes (courtesy of the Dems) the 3rd party you long for will be up against the execution wall, along with the lawyers, press, and any others.

To claim there is no difference between Repubs and Dems is a popular thing to say, and many times is true, but certainly not always. I'm not interested in rhetoric, but in truth. Not all Repubs are RINOs. In fact RINOs are in the process of being purged from the party. The Tea Party is a good start, but they have a ways to go.

I dont care about rhetoric or populism. I care about results.
Take over the Repubs and make the party what you want, and America has a chance.
Go 3rd party, and you give the people you rant against MORE power and MORE time to enact their damage.
3rd party HELPS the people you are AGAINST, by giving them power by plurality.

-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.

Armadillo  posted on  2010-09-20   22:37:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Armadillo, Farmfriend (#38)

you give the people you rant against MORE power and MORE time to enact their damage.

This is what is done every time the people elect the same crop of corrupt Reps and Dems.

Soon, there will be nothing left to save. Third party is the only way to give an honest candidate a chance. Like I said the difference between the two parties is by degree, not in the least bit meaningful. Both parties serve the same interests, Dillo, and they are NOT your interests. Keep pretending that they are if it makes you feel better, but the state of this nation IS the truth of the matter.

The revolution will be courtesy of the two party fraud. The only difference will be who is the majority at the time it happens. What good will electing

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-20   22:48:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Armadillo (#38)

I dont care about rhetoric or populism. I care about results. Take over the Repubs and make the party what you want, and America has a chance. Go 3rd party, and you give the people you rant against MORE power and MORE time to enact their damage. 3rd party HELPS the people you are AGAINST, by giving them power by plurality.

I agree 100%

Anyone who votes anything BUT Republican in the upcoming cycle is voting for more Omama

Remember: Both Ron and Rand are Republicans and hey know it's easier to retake the party than start anew.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-20   23:18:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: abraxas (#39)

Soon, there will be nothing left to save.

There's nothing left to save now.

Third party is the only way to give an honest candidate a chance.

Are you calling Rand Paul dishonest?

difference between the two parties is by degree, not in the least bit meaningful.

Only at the CFR top

Both parties serve the same interests, Dillo, and they are NOT your interests. Keep pretending that they are if it makes you feel better, but the state of this nation IS the truth of the matter.

Repeat: Only the CFR top

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-20   23:23:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Flintlock (#41) (Edited)

Are you calling Rand Paul dishonest?

There are a handful within ALL the Dems and Reps.....that little handful has been unable to do any good. Look around, Flintie, we have been screwed by the two party fraud that is perpetuated non stop on the MSM.

The handful of honest reps, like Ron Paul, could actually get some traction with Constitutional governance if we had a third party to assist.

No, it is far beyond the CFR top. This is why Ron Paul is often the LONE vote against UN idiocy and Watermelon Week and all sorts of shit we don't need or want and is often DESTRUCTIVE for the people.

We need a party to follow the Constitution and represent the people, a handful of Reps and Dems isn't cutting it. We need another option to the lesser of two evils.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-20   23:33:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: abraxas, farmfriend (#39)

This is what is done every time the people elect the same crop of corrupt Reps and Dems.
What makes you think 3rd partiers will be pure?
Third party is the only way to give an honest candidate a chance.
A chance at what? Being defeated by a Democrat who gets 35% of the vote, while the Republican gets 33%.
Keep pretending that they are if it makes you feel better, but the state of this nation IS the truth of the matter.
I dont care about pretend, or feelings, or rhetoric. I care about RESULTS.
The revolution will be courtesy of the two party fraud.
True.
The only difference will be who is the majority at the time it happens.
The "who" will be a radical leftest government at all levels. Thanks to the 3rd party that cares about pretending, feelings, and rhetoric instead of results.

Here are some future election results if a 3rd party happens.
Dems- 40%.
Reps- 35%
3rd- 25%
YOU LOOSE.


Dems- 45%.
Reps- 30%
3rd- 25%
YOU LOOSE.
Dems- 35%.
Reps- 33%
3rd- 32%
YOU LOOSE.
Dems- 35%.
Reps- 32%
3rd- 33%
YOU LOOSE.
After four election cycles (16 years) of all Democrat run government at all levels, America is dead.
Thanks, 3rd party. Not.

Take over the Republicans, make it what you want.
The marxests did it to the Democrat party, so it can be done.
DO IT. It's being done now partially by the Tea Party. Reagan Conservatism isnt too far removed from "Classic Liberal".
Ron and Rand Paul are Republicans.
They know what I say is true.

-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.

Armadillo  posted on  2010-09-20   23:56:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Armadillo (#43)

Seriously, I've already gone to work on the Rep party in my state. It's TOO CORRUPT to fix. We implemented a rockin' platform, worked our butts off and jumped through all the hoops. When it came down to the vote and it was obvious that Nevada was going to Ron Paul, not McStain, the party "leaders" waltzed in and took the ballot box away AFTER the votes had been cast.

Dillo, you believe in it, so you should take it over. I no longer believe in it and I will find a more productive place for my energy. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:02:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: abraxas (#42)

There are a handful within ALL the Dems and Reps.

Assi

Really, name one RAT.

You want a third party, start one when there are less chips on the table. What do you call the Teaparty candidates that are running as Republicans? No, you want a third party you do it after we've got a little gridlock.

No, it is far beyond the CFR top.

Really Assi, WTF is is then, you seem to know everything, enlighten us.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   0:06:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: abraxas, Armadillo (#44)

Assi

You should listen to Armadillo, he's smarter than you, you might learn something.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   0:09:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Flintlock (#45)

start one when there are less chips on the table.

When will that be? We've had at least five elections cycles that have only made things worse.

If a teaparty candidate speaks some truth on issues I would go for it, but I haven't heard too much of that. I will vote for Angle in NV because I know her record in NV gov.

I already explained what it is. If Ron Paul is the LONE vote for the Constitution, we have a problem Flintie. How did your pubbies do on stopping that banker bail-out? Pubbie POTUS pushed it through. Pubbies folded like cards for some banker cash.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:13:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Flintlock (#46)

I look at the record. Gee Flintie you had a Pubbie in the Oval and control of both houses--what did you get? MASSIVE increase in government, spending like drunken sailors, two bullshit wars, no accountability, patriot act, military commissions act, crapping on the Constitution.........

Yet, you think they are going to "change" for the better. You're as much of a dupe as the Dems in 2008, thinking they would get something different from a Obama and a Dem majority to "fix" that stinking pile of crap. No surprise, the only change is that the pile is bigger.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:20:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Flintlock (#45)

Really, name one RAT

Dems who demonstrates integrity and honesty in their actions, even if I don't agree with their votes or stances, would include: Kucinich and Sanders.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:29:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: abraxas (#47)

When will that be?

After this cycle.

If a teaparty candidate speaks some truth on issues I would go for it, but I haven't heard too much of that.

Try cleaning your ears, Q-Tips can work wonders.

I already explained what it is. If Ron Paul is the LONE vote for the Constitution,

Soon to have company. We didn't lose this country overnight, we're not going to get it back overnight,

How did your pubbies do on stopping that banker bail-out? Pubbie POTUS pushed it through. Pubbies folded like cards for some banker cash.

Assi, get your facts straight

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll681.xml

The majority of Republicans and Ron Paul voted AGAINST the bailout.

Assi, where do you get your info, ACORN?


The first one's on me.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   0:30:09 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: abraxas (#49)

Kucinich and Sanders.

Bernie Sanders the hardcore socialist who is the head of the Progressive Caucus and Kucinich? You're kidding, right.

Who are your other heroes, Mao & Stalin?

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   0:36:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Flintlock (#50)

They were the stinking majority!! Did they STOP IT? Nope. Like I said, Pubbie POTUS and seven pubbies made it happen.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:38:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Flintlock (#51)

We were discussing HONEST. Bernie calls himself a socialist himself, so how could he be more honest?

I didn't say they are "heros" moron, I said they were honest in their positions, unlike the rest of them.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Flintlock (#50)

When will that be?

After this cycle.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Sure it will and butterflies will flutter out of your ass.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-09-21   0:41:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: abraxas (#52)

Nope. Like I said, Pubbie POTUS and seven pubbies made it happen.

Assi

You're talking Senate and I'm talking House. The Senate has been inherently corrupt since the passage of the 17th Amendment.

Let's look at the House

--------------Yeah----Nay

Democratic 172-----63
Republican 91------108
Independent
TOTALS--263

The House was controlled by RATS and they passed the bill, the majority of Republicans voted against it

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   0:53:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: abraxas (#54)

When will that be?

After this cycle.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Sure it will and butterflies will flutter out of your ass.

So you think you should vote third party this cycle? Who gave you that idea, the DNC?

Give me a F'n break.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   0:58:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: abraxas (#53)

We were discussing HONEST. Bernie calls himself a socialist himself,

No, you were discussing respect

Fidel Castro is an open Communist, do you respect him too.

Personally, I wouldn't spit on either of them if they were on fire.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-09-21   1:04:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: abraxas, farmfriend (#44) (Edited)

When it came down to the vote and it was obvious that Nevada was going to Ron Paul, not McStain, the party "leaders" waltzed in and took the ballot box away AFTER the votes had been cast.

I understand about what McCain did last election. He and the party did a lot of crap like that.
That dosnt mean the whole party is like that. There are some good people in the Repubs, like the Pauls, who want to take it back.

Dillo, you believe in it, so you should take it over. I no longer believe in it and I will find a more productive place for my energy. : )
I'd like to take it over. Heck I'd like to be President.
I know the Tea Party isnt perfect, but they are headed in the right direction. RINOS are feeling heat, and the "party elite" is slowly realizing that the sleeper has awakened.
Retake the party. It's quicker, easier, and dosnt give the Dems a default win like a 3rd party would.

It's time for me to clock-out, go home, and sleep.
I'll convince you tomorrow. ;)
Good night.

-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.

Armadillo  posted on  2010-09-21   1:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Armadillo (#43)

The arguments that you use against third parties could just as easily be applied to the tea party. If the only thing that matters is having a Republican majority in both houses of Congress then you should nominate the person who has the best chance of winning the general election. If all that the tea party accomplishes is to help fringe candidates win Republican primaries, who then go on to lose in November, then the tea party is helping the Democrats.

strepsiptera  posted on  2010-09-21   1:18:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Armadillo, abraxas (#58)

Retake the party. It's quicker, easier, and dosnt give the Dems a default win like a 3rd party would.

but it's not. That's what I'm trying to tell you. We have been trying to retake our own political party for a while now. It was infiltrated and taken over by a CIA plant. He is impossible to get rid of. He already killed the reform party by doing the same thing he is doing to our party. Understand he is connected to the same people in control of the Republican party. They do not play by the rules. And when you catch them with the rules they change them. How do you get those in control of the party out?


"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-09-21   1:51:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: farmfriend, abraxas (#60)

We have been trying to retake our own political party for a while now. It was infiltrated and taken over by a CIA plant. He is impossible to get rid of. He already killed the reform party by doing the same thing he is doing to our party. Understand he is connected to the same people in control of the Republican party. They do not play by the rules. And when you catch them with the rules they change them. How do you get those in control of the party out?

Is the CIA plants infiltration ability limited to only two parties?
What makes you think a "3rd party" couldnt be infiltrated?

People talk about a 3rd party as if it's some magical incorruptible panacea.
It's not. It would be yet another political party with everything that goes with that. Politics in America has been like that for 200 years, and it's not going to change because Farmfriend, Abraxas, or Armadillo have good intentions.

Y'all are also avoiding the point I've been making. If a 3rd party splits the vote, you give Democrats a perpetual win by plurality. You believe Dems and Reps are the same, so the 3rd party would accomplish nothing except enabling what you seek to end.
Roughly 30% of the electorate are dedicated leftists. Another 30% are dedicated rightists. The rest are swing voters. By splitting the right and swing vote you win nothing, and create what you seek to stop.
All talk of a 3rd party is irrelevant unless you can find a way to win. And you cant.

The Democrats have to be responsive to their voters because they are a collection of special interest activists who protest anything.
The Republicans did not have to be responsive because their voters were passive. A Repub voter might write a stern letter, but that's it.

With the Tea Party that has changed. They are not a "3rd party" per se, but are trying to RETAKE and REMAKE the Republican Party by putting forward non-Rino candidates.
The sleeper has awakened. Formerly passive right voters are becoming active. With Tea Party backing, candidates are challenging Rino Republicans for their nomination.
It's a good start.

Armadillo must sleep now. You ladies have kept me up late. :)

-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.

Armadillo  posted on  2010-09-21   4:39:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: farmfriend, all (#29)

FF, I spent years & personal money trying to get the Reform Party off the ground. Below is how it ended. I see that you ping the Constitution Party on your "To" field. I checked it here in PA. Out of 67 counties, there are two active chapters. This after at least ten years of existence that I'm aware of. I'm not suggesting these aren't salt of the earth people, with the very best of intentions, I'm simply saying that for those that haven't spent time, energy & money trying to develop a 3rd Party into something viable, they've missed a first hand education into a world of the improbable.

Perot spokesman leaving job in another sign of demise of Reform Party.(The Dallas Morning News)

Article from:
Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service
Article date:
April 18, 2001
Author:
document.writeln('Barta, Carolyn');document.getElementById ('ctl00_ph_ctl00_ArticleMain_AuthorLinks_ctl01_lnkAuthor').title='Barta, Carolyn'
More results for:
the demise of the Reform Party

DALLAS _ Ross Perot spokesman Russell Verney is leaving his job as Perot's political right arm in what some experts say is another sign of demise for the Reform Party created by the Dallas billionaire.

Judicial Watch, a Washington-based public interest legal and governmental watchdog group, is expected to announce at a news conference Thursday that it is hiring Verney to open a Southwest office in Dallas. The group had no comment Wednesday.

"I am moving on," said Verney, who was campaign chairman for Perot's 1996 presidential run and founding chairman of the Reform Party. He first signed on with Perot in the fall of 1992, becoming director of United We Stand America, the forerunner to the Reform Party.

Verney's move, some experts said, signals an end to Perot's active involvement in the party and could help nail the coffin on the party as a national force.

Verney acknowledged that the Reform Party has declined, along with Perot's need for a full-time adviser.

"There aren't many remnants of it left," he said.

Pat Buchanan, the party's 2000 presidential nominee, won less than 1 percent of the vote, compared with Perot's 19 percent in 1992, when he launched the movement that became the Reform Party. The party has ballot status in only 10 states and no federal funding for the 2004 presidential campaign.

George Edwards, director of the Center for Presidential Studies at Texas A&M University, said the party's performance in the last election "indicates it's not a good investment, and Ross Perot is certainly someone who likes a good investment."

For several years, Verney served as the conduit between Perot and the Reform Party. However, a party split reduced the Perot-Verney influence, and Verney fought what he called the Buchanan "takeover."

National Reform Chairman Gerry Moan of Arizona said Verney has not supported the party since its national nominating convention last summer.

As for Perot, days before the November election, he made a surprise endorsement of GOP nominee George W. Bush. He was out of town and unavailable for comment Wednesday.

Buchanan, meanwhile, has kept an arm's length from the party since his candidacy.

"That Buchanan is standing back, Perot is withdrawing further from it, and Verney is leaving to take this other job means the Reform Party is a collection of state Reform parties _ some of which may have local influence, some of which will simply die away," said political scientist Cal Jillson.

"As a national force, I think they are spent," the Southern Methodist University professor said.

But he credits Perot with changing the course of American politics in the early 1990s.

"He scared both political parties sober," he said of Perot, contributing to the strong economic performance of the 1990s.

But, he said, Perot's heart was not in the 1996 presidential race and he receded from party involvement, allowing others such as Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura and Buchanan to try to remake the party in their image. "Only Perot could protect it from interlopers. When he decided not to, the game was over."

Moan, however, said the party has "a lot of activity going on," including support of local candidates and working for campaign finance reform and a boycott of Chinese goods.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-09-21   10:02:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Armadillo (#61)

Is the CIA plants infiltration ability limited to only two parties? What makes you think a "3rd party" couldnt be infiltrated?

It has been. That is my point. They infiltrate and destroy third parties from within to insure they are not a threat. It happened to the Green party, Reform party and now AIP.


"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-09-21   10:08:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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