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Title: The Troubling Worldview of the 'Rapture-Ready' Christian
Source:
Lew Rockwell
URL Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell71.html
Published: Oct 7, 2010
Author: Bill Barnwell
Post Date: 2010-10-07 12:31:54 by Original_Intent
Keywords: Rapture, Scofield, Darby, Fatalism
Views: 1748
Comments: 100
When the subject of the "end-times" comes up, many Christians and non-Christians don’t want to talk about it. Some Christians, annoyed with all the competing theories and terminology just say, "What difference does it make? Jesus is coming back and I just need to be ready." Non-Christians just assume that since Christianity isn’t true, then the whole issue doesn’t matter. Well, actually, it does matter. I will submit that the popular doctrines of the Left Behind series pose very real threats not only to Christianity, but also to the wider culture. Probably most conservative Protestants (though not all of us) believe that humanity is certainly in the final generation of life on earth as we currently know it. Not that we "could be," but that "we must be." That’s a big distinction. They believe this because of their views on a couple key Biblical texts. The first is the Olivet Discourse. This discourse by Jesus about the "end of the age" can be found in Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. Dispensationalists – a group that believes God has two separate prophetic programs for Israel and the Church and generally believes that Christians will be removed from the earth before a final tribulation – see all of the events or signs spoken of by Jesus as referring to events that are happening now or going to happen very soon. Never mind that Jesus was first and foremost referring to events that would occur within his own disciples’ lifetime (Matthew 24:34). They believe that nothing past chapter 3 in the book of Revelation has occurred yet. It is all in the future, and all relates to the tribulation period, which true Christians will avoid. Another key text is Daniel 9:27. It is from this verse alone that we get the idea of a "seven-year tribulation" during the end times. But the New Testament says nothing about a seven-year tribulation. The book of Revelation refers to a 3.5–year period – five different times. They are most likely referring to the same time period. Dispensationalists believe by prophetic necessity a number of things. First, they assume that the world must get worse in just about all ways. Second, they assume that Daniel 9:27 calls for the rebuilding of a Third Jewish Temple at the site of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore, prophetic necessity demands that the current Islamic al-Aqsa mosque must be torn down to build this new Jewish Temple. Halfway through the tribulation period, the antichrist will come and exalt himself in the new Jewish Temple, stop sacrifices in the Temple, break a peace treaty he had earlier made with Israel, and proclaim himself to be God. They get all this from cutting and pasting Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 together and then associating those passages with everything that will be going on in Revelation 4–19. There are all sorts of problems with these interpretations. First of all, the New Testament says nothing about a "pretribulational rapture." To see how bankrupt that position is, read my offering on the subject here. The evidence for a "pre-trib" rapture is not just weak, it is non-existent. Regarding the key verse of Daniel 9:27, see my refutation of the dispensationalist position here. Read those, especially if you are a dispensationalist who already presupposes that I’m wrong. Once you begin thinking of the implications involved, you begin to see why this doctrine is so dangerous to everybody. Dispensationalists seem to have a preoccupation with war. In fact, right now, dispensationalist mega-church pastor John Hagee is preaching that a war with Iran is not only the right thing to do, but is prophetically inevitable. Apparently, Bible prophecy demands a showdown with Iran. You see, if you aren’t on the side of war, then you aren’t on the side of God. Talk of peace now becomes irrelevant. It’s God’s will that we be militarists. In fairness, not all dispensationalists are militarists. Our own Laurence Vance is an example. But they are in a definite minority. The prevailing worldview of dispensationalism glorifies war, militarism, and the State. The dispensationalist view of Daniel 9:27 provides some troubling implications as well. They don’t care that tearing down the al-Aqsa mosque would result in a regional war and cause all sorts of global distress. This would not be a bad thing in their minds. They believe that it was all foreordained and is a sign that the end of the world would be soon upon us. Also, if you buy into these interpretations, talks of peace in the Middle East are futile. Jews and Muslims must continue killing each other at high rates. And who will be the one bringing peace to the Middle East in this popular end-time paradigm? Not Jesus, but the Antichrist. Therefore, talk of Middle East peace during this current "dispensation" is not from Jesus, but the Antichrist. When dispensationalists hear talk of peace summits or treaties in the Middle East, they assume it must have evil origins and be antichristic. If that’s the cause, why bother trying to make the world a better place? All we need to do is be good Christians and wait for our ticket out of this earth and make way for the Antichrist. Dispensationalists are numerous and popular. Well-connected preachers like Hagee have political connections. Dispensational preachers and lobbyists have the ear of the White House and are directly trying to influence foreign policy based on their very questionable theological views, which, by the way, are less than 200 years old. This is more than just a quirky theology that doesn’t affect those who do not hold it. Dispensationalists want to bring about world events that would have catastrophic implications for other Christians and for non-Christians. If they are correct, why should any of us bother trying to make the world a better place? Dispensationalists get very annoyed at this question. They say, "Final peace on earth will only come through Christ!" They basically insist Christians trying to do good in the world should only focus on "spiritual things." Trying to change social institutions for the better is futile and presumptuous. Apparently the only two options are handing the world over to Satan or believing that humans can do everything in their own strength. Not much room for nuance here. Ironically, many dispensationalists are involved in the Religious Right movement and want to stem abortions, ban gay marriage and make America more Christian. But at the same time they believe in a theology that says the world can only get worse, that there’s nothing any of us can do about it, and that it’s about to get so bad Christians are going to be taken off of the earth. If the ship is irreversibly sinking, why try and patch up the leaks? If you need more proof that many dispensationalists hold troubling worldviews, just take a visit over to the Rapture Ready message board. The main site is one of the bigger dispensationalist/pretribulational sites on the web. You can read for yourselves how they view the world, how they can’t wait to escape it, and their obsession with war. One angry pre-tribber wrote me a few weeks back. He had this to say: When the RAPTURE of the CHURCH takes place, and mark my words it will, maybe them you will see the light! After you have been left behind you are going to look back on all the people that you deceived, who will probably be in your face at that time, and hopefully repent of the false gospel that you were teaching! It's not to late to be saved during the 7 year tribulation period but it will be harder when you hear that Christians, who become Christians after the Rapture of the Church, are being beheaded for the witness of Jesus! Hopefully you and those who partake of your beliefs will see the light before Christ comes for the Church! Notice in his mind I’m not even a real Christian. The reason? Because I happen to have a different position than he does on the issue of the "rapture." I’ll also apparently be too much of a coward to "convert" during the "7 year tribulation" because other people who become Christians after the pre-tribulational rapture are being beheaded. Ever notice with people who so strongly believe this doctrine that they assume everyone who will be "left behind" is going to be absolutely clueless? Maybe I too will just assume aliens came and abducted the "true Christians." Apparently I’d be too scared to be beheaded, even though I’d find myself instantly in heaven along with all the real Christians who were taken up in the rapture. Finally notice the great confidence of this guy. He is so convinced of his position that only an idiot or heretic would disagree. Well, I challenge people like this, and the crew over at Rapture Ready to actually put their interpretations up against the Scriptures and think about the logic and implications of their beliefs. The logic and implications are clear. Society is going to hades in a handbasket. There’s little we can do to stem the tide of evil. The Middle East must further deteriorate. Anyone who disagrees with Israel’s foreign policy is opposing God. The third most important site to Muslims must be crushed to make way for a new Jewish Temple. Good Christians should support the building of a new temple with new animal sacrifices taking place inside of it (compare Hebrews 10 to the theology of Darby and Hal Lindsey). And in a strange sense, war is kinda good and peace is kinda bad – since war is a sign that the end is near and peace on earth is a sign of the Antichrist. Any Christian who doesn’t agree with all this is deceived at best and a heretic at worst. When you understand that millions of Christians believe this way, and that some of them are actually fairly influential on the political scene, you begin to see why this theology needs to be refuted. By refuting it, dispensationalists think you’re trying to refute God. I would argue that you’re being more faithful to God and the very Scriptures themselves. This is not just an in-house debate that only affects myself and other Christians. Dispensationalists have a vision for the world and it is bad news for everybody. Therefore, it would do you all good to spend some time in the Bible and see what exactly the Scriptures have to say on this subject. February 2, 2007 Bill Barnwell [send him mail] is a pastor and writer from Michigan. He holds both a Master of Ministry degree and a Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Indiana. Visit his blog. Additional Data: 1830 The initial development of the pre-tribulation doctrine, either by the trance-induced 20-year-old Margaret Macdonald for by John Nelson Darby. 1855 John Cumming announces that Russian will invade Israel: The End; Or, The Proximate Signs of the Close of This Dispensation, Lecture 7. 1878 Publication of the immensely popular book by William E. Blackstone (W.E.B.), Jesus Is Coming. 1909 C. I. Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible is published by Oxford University Press. 1917 Balfour Declaration promises British support for the creation of a State of Israel in Palestine. 1925 The Scopes' "Monkey Trial" results in a public disgrace for William Jennings Bryan and the voluntary withdrawal of American fundamentalism from public discourse. 1926 Founding of Dallas Theological Seminary. 1948 The creation of the modern State of Israel, May 14: the "generation of the fig tree" supposedly begins. 1970 Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth creates a huge new market in "ticking clock" prophecy books: an unstated but obvious rejection of traditional dispensationalism's doctrine of any any-moment Rapture, which insists that the 70th week of Daniel begins only after the Rapture. 1980 The presidential race and victory of Ronald Reagan: the New Christian Right becomes visible in the U.S. 1981 Rapture postponed: 1988 (40 years after the creation of the State of Israel), minus 7years for the year of the Great Tribulation = 1981. 1988 Rapture postponed: May 14, the 40th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel. 1988 Rapture postponed: Edgar C. Whisenant's prediction of a September Rapture during the Jewish Rosh-hosanna. His book sells millions of copies, July through early September. 1989 Fall of the Berlin Wall in October. 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait on July 2. Dallas Seminary's Charles Dyer announces the revival of prophesied Babylon. 1991 January-February: U.S. obliterates Iraq's army. 1991 August 21: Defeat of the attempted Soviet coup; Soviet Union begins to break apart. 2000 The final year of the second millennium after the birth of Jesus. What if the Rapture is again postponed? 2001 The beginning of the third millennium after the birth of Jesus. What if the Rapture is again postponed? Poster Comment: I have for some years now had a few misgivings and outright objections to Dispensationalism, not so much due to my own theological misgivings as I had no real knowledge in the area, but from the actions and behavior of its followers. Curious by nature I wanted to understand the world view that could simultaneously claim to be followers of the "Prince of Peace" and at the same support horrific wars, mass murder, and the ongoing recreation of Sodom and Gomorrah that is the modern Marxist-Racist State which names itself Israel. As well the Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter" and acceptance, without opposition, of great evil as somehow fulfilling some great design further offended me as it is a total absolution from responsibility for creating a better, more sane, world. It would seem to me to be antithetical to the teachings of he whom we call Jesus Christ. That by their inaction, and even active support, evil is allowed to flourish at the expense of the innocent and that horrors of murder, torture, war, rape, and degradation are taken with a fatalistic aplomb as though it just doesn't matter as the world is coming to an end last Tuesday. And then to top it off is the apparent belief that by mouthing the correct phrases one will be absolved of creating, by inaction and lack of moral opposition, even supporting it, a great conflagration of evil and veritable hell on earth and be lifted magically away among the righteous for having done so. In effect, under dispensationalism, it appears that one somehow becomes more Christian by not being one, and more righteous for having turned a blind eye to the horrors that inaction, and at times open support, has brought to pass. Equally troubling is the penchant for hating which many of its followers seem to possess. Hate of muslims, hate of this, and hate of that and yet no time to hate and remedy the evils that beset our world. So, much for their following the path laid forth by he who was named Jesus. The contradictions and the results become only starker, and more malignant, the more I learn of the issue. I cannot begin to express the revulsion I feel for such a world view with the evil and misery it spawns.
Excerpted from Gary North's book
"Rapture Fever
Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed" (Published 1993)
(Available here as a free e-book download)
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#1. To: christine, farmfriend, CadetD, wudidiz, HighLairEon, TwentyTwelve, James Deffenbach, Jethro Tull, Horse, Lod, Kamala, Eric Stratton, HAPPY2BEME4UM, randge, X-15, scrapper2, AllTheKingsHorses, FormerLurker, Itistoolate, Esso, ratcat, Cynicom, abraxas, all (#0)
(((((Ready? Set? Go! Ping)))))
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
(((((Tribulation Blues Ping.)))))
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
he is the guy who in 1999 was in the media creating panic over the 'Y2K' problems in software. His fear mongering was unfounded. and he looks like a puppet of the CIA to me - as well as many other people.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Hail Odin.
I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves. Thank you. - Roman Moroni
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
One of the unfortunate characteristics of the "rapture-ready" is a rather laissez faire attitude about the situation being left to future generations (presumably the "unsaved", who are going to be punished anyway). One painful example was James Watt, Reagan's Sec. of Interior, who seemed appallingly indifferent to environmental problems because he was so sure that all the good people would not have to deal with them in future decades. In earlier generations there have been some instances of "rapture-ready" people, such as the Russelites, who were spectacularly irresponsible about running up debts as they felt that the Rapture would whisk them away before the collection date.
The only thing I used from his book was the timeline of Dispensationalism. However, a lot of people were wrong on Y2K, which did hold the potential for disaster which took the expenditure of a lot of time and money to avert. The potential was there but thankfully avoided.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I wasn't trying to blame you for using that timeline. But gary North's involvement on this (I would personally think) is a sign of propaganda on this issue. The christians are like the jews in this respect - among them are all kinds of bible interpretations, world views and political views. The 'rapture' people are pointing to certain verses and interpreting them in a certain way that most do not agree with. They say that jesus will separate the people prior to Jesus' return, and I don't agree because I've read verses that this will happen after Jesus' return. So I think the so-called rapture verses are descriptions of a great separation of the people that will occur, but only after the so-called tribulation and jesus' return.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
That is the scary part. Having such good connections leads me to believe they are not good people. I'm not getting the term dispensationalists. Dispensation is trying to understand what is being said by putting it in the context of the time written. I must be missing something. Reminds me of the AGW people.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. While I am trying to approach the issue with intellectual detachment I don't disagree. I have visited the "Rupture Ready" forum and the detachment from the reality of the world in which we live is simply mind blowing. It is a viewpoint of the sanguine acceptance of evil as routine and to be applauded because, as has been periodically predicted by various and sundry apocalyptic "holy men", the world will soon be coming to an end and "Jeeeezus will lift up all his chilluns who mouthed the right 'key words and meaningless shibboleths'" so they will not have to endure the HELL they have helped to create. So, evil can be allowed to flourish because it proves how righteous the "Rupture Ready" are. The insane logic is almost too much to comprehend.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I bet if there is ever a "rapture", it'll be something like a "Project Blue Beam" that they so often refer to, yet many appear to be confused about. It'll probably be some image of Jesus in the clouds, with bright little spheres telling them to "walk into the light". Thing is, those little spheres generating the "light" could well transport them to an alien mothership, to be herded and kept as food for an intersteller voyage. I know it's sort of mean to chuckle over something like that, but...
I was taught the rapture and truthfully I still believe though I have seen and understand the evidence against it. However, I am ambivalent about it. It will either happen or it won't. Doesn't change what I do or how I live. I live that philosophy when fighting the government. I believe that the one world government will happen but that doesn't stop me from fighting it with my last breath. The hard part for me is the idea that I'm possibly working against God's will. I move forward anyway believing that if I am doing something wrong, he'll let me know.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?Archive=1 That is the Top 100 Quotes from FSTDT. They will blow your mind. .
#2. To: FormerLurker, Artisan, mirage, Rotara, sizzlerguy, gengis gandhi, Horse, noone222, TommyTheMadArtist, ghostdogtxn, Deacon Benjamin, wbales, Samuel Gray, Liberator, PaulCJ, Duckhunter, GreyLmist, phant2000, freepatriot32, Obnoxicated, all (#0)
#3. To: Original_Intent (#0)
Gary North'
#4. To: Original_Intent (#1)
Ready? Set? Go!
#5. To: Original_Intent (#0)
#6. To: Original_Intent (#0)
(Edited)
#7. To: Red Jones (#3)
#8. To: Original_Intent (#7)
#9. To: Original_Intent (#0)
Dispensationalists are numerous and popular. Well-connected preachers like Hagee have political connections.
Finally notice the great confidence of this guy. He is so convinced of his position that only an idiot or heretic would disagree.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#10. To: ghostdogtxn (#5)
Flakes.
#11. To: Original_Intent (#2)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#12. To: Original_Intent (#10)
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#13. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#10)
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The second dumbest creature on the face of the earth is the one who cannot recognize its enemies. The most stupid of all is the one who will defend and collaborate with the very enemies that are destroying it and its own kind. -Ben Klassen
#14. To: farmfriend (#9)
Here is an article explaining the background in fairly readable prose. The minset is not too different. Take a look at A K A Slime and you'll see a full blown case. If you want a real snoot full visit the Rapture Ready forum (don't forget your barf bag).
"Reminds me of the AGW people."
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#15. To: FormerLurker (#11)
Unfortunately the similarities do beg the comparison. I try not to laugh or deride others religious beliefs, but when it becomes so poisonous as to promote great misery, death, and degradation I cannot but speak against it.
I know it's sort of mean to chuckle over something like that, but...
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#16. To: Red Jones (#8)
But gary North's involvement on this (I would personally think) is a sign of propaganda on this issue. The christians are like the jews in this respect - among them are all kinds of bible interpretations, world views and political views. The 'rapture' people are pointing to certain verses and interpreting them in a certain way that most do not agree with. They say that jesus will separate the people prior to Jesus' return, and I don't agree because I've read verses that this will happen after Jesus' return. So I think the so-called rapture verses are descriptions of a great separation of the people that will occur, but only after the so-called tribulation and jesus' return. My approach is really quit simple: "Ye may know them by their works." Judged by that simple standard the "Rupture Ready" dispensationalists are found horrifically wanting. They ignore the volume of humanity and decency in the Bible to fixate upon a small hand full of heavily disputed interpretations, which are then mixed well for effect, and used to justify evil most foul.
I wasn't trying to blame you for using that timeline.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#17. To: FormerLurker (#11)
I think it is quite possible that government will do that, put an image up like that with a voice to speak and everything. Remember, jesus will have sympathy for the poor and he will bring a complete revolution in ways we can't imagine easily. The regime that rules us has no sympathy for the poor. Jesus will return at the time of greatest trouble, after great problems brought on by the wars of people, not at a time when the rulers are merely threatening us and badgering us to conform to the changes they want.
image of Jesus in the clouds
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#18. To: PSUSA (#13)
I couldn't get past the first half dozen. It is enough to make one power projectile vomit.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#19. To: farmfriend (#12)
I don't think you should worry about that. Gods will is going to be done regardless of what you and I do. But it is important to distinguish ourselves with the good works we've given as tasks to do in our lives. because when judgment comes it is based on that, not on your church or political affiliations. The rapture crowd simply chooses to interpret some things a little different from what is the norm and has been the norm for many centuries. It is well documented that the rapture ideas are relatively new in the last 150 years. My opinion is that somebody with money supported those rapture ideas and popularized them in bible colleges. Basic prophecy is that there will be great trouble on this earth involving wars and other problems. At the height of these problems jesus will return. Then he will set about building the kingdom of heaven here on earth. The rapture people say they'll be raptured to elsewhere, but the bible says jesus will build his kingdom of heaven here on earth. The rapture people say they'll be spared this 'tribulation' and raptured out first. I just don't see that in the timeline when I read the prophecy books. We go through the tribulation era and many are killed during that era, but we still go through it. When jesus gets ready to judge people he will first raise the dead so that all of the people who ever lived in this era will be judged, the living and the dead. The old protestant denominations generally don't go for this rapture stuff. and most catholics don't either, certainly not the catholic hierarchy. it is the new independent churches and mega-churches that seem to be much more likely to go along with the rapture ideas.
The hard part for me is the idea that I'm possibly working against God's will.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#20. To: Red Jones (#17)
I'd be leary of ANY image in the clouds. The true God wouldn't need to go through theatrics in order to accomplish what needs to be done, and it's not as if the Earth is the center of all Creation, there are more than likely a huge number of worlds similar to ours, where there could well be huge populations of beings on those planets. The struggle between good and evil is in the hearts of men, and that is where the final battle will take place in terms of humanity. Those who claim to be "godlike" since they feel themselves superiour to others might have a rude awakening along the way. The term "christian" is supposed to imply that they are following in Jesus' footsteps, who they feel is actually God Himself, yet many behave no better than the most evil people that have ever walked the Earth. Many are nothing but immense hypocrites who will find out that their misdeeds, hatred, and cruelty will carry consequences. Religion (be it the various flavors of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism) has been the motivation for many of the atrocities which have occured on this world over history, whether we are talking about the Inquisitions, the witch trials, or the random acts of evil which not only start wars, but which occur during times of war. For a bunch of people who profess to be following a good and benevolent god, they certainly have an odd way of showing just how good and holy they are.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#21. To: FormerLurker, Red Jones (#20)
As an interesting side note. A few years back the Vatican set up an observatory in the American Southwest. At the same time the cryptic pronouncement was made that if life exists on other worlds that the beings thereon were God's children too.
The true God wouldn't need to go through theatrics in order to accomplish what needs to be done, and it's not as if the Earth is the center of all Creation, there are more than likely a huge number of worlds similar to ours, where there could well be huge populations of beings on those planets.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#22. To: FormerLurker, Red Jones, all (#20)
Which is a mouthful and closely parallels my own thoughts. If by one's actions, deeds, and whom one supports, one furthers the aims of evil is one truly walking the path?
Those who claim to be "godlike" since they feel themselves superiour to others might have a rude awakening along the way. The term "christian" is supposed to imply that they are following in Jesus' footsteps, who they feel is actually God Himself, yet many behave no better than the most evil people that have ever walked the Earth. Many are nothing but immense hypocrites who will find out that their misdeeds, hatred, and cruelty will carry consequences.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#23. To: Original_Intent, Red Jones, all (#22)
They're "walking a path" alright, but not the one they think they're on.
If by one's actions, deeds, and whom one supports, one furthers the aims of evil is one truly walking the path?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#24. To: Original_Intent (#21)
Well if there is a God, ALL life would be "God's children", not just us humans. That the Vatican is even involving itself with possible extraterrestrial life is certainly interesting though.
As an interesting side note. A few years back the Vatican set up an observatory in the American Southwest. At the same time the cryptic pronouncement was made that if life exists on other worlds that the beings thereon were God's children too.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#25. To: FormerLurker (#23)
And it is not even paved with good intentions.
They're "walking a path" alright, but not the one they think they're on.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#26. To: Shoonra (#6)
That is the Christian Fatalism of which I spoke in my comment with the article. It is a very perverse viewpoint for which I have no affinity. The logic of it, when you explore its different nuances, is such as to encourage support of evil while, falsely, claiming it to be of the highest good. I would not heap all of the evils in the world upon the shoulders of the misguided and insane dispensationalists, but then again I would not see them absolved for their evil either. I somehow doubt that a just God would see them as righteous followers.
One of the unfortunate characteristics of the "rapture-ready" is a rather laissez faire attitude about the situation being left to future generations (presumably the "unsaved", who are going to be punished anyway). One painful example was James Watt, Reagan's Sec. of Interior, who seemed appallingly indifferent to environmental problems because he was so sure that all the good people would not have to deal with them in future decades. In earlier generations there have been some instances of "rapture-ready" people, such as the Russelites, who were spectacularly irresponsible about running up debts as they felt that the Rapture would whisk them away before the collection date.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#27. To: Original_Intent (#1)
GO Orthodox warrior!!!
I know before I read any further bump
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"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#28. To: Original_Intent (#0)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#29. To: All (#0)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#30. To: Eric Stratton (#28)
Thank you. I held back from responding because your post stands on its own in illustrating the contradictions. However, the best post to follow was the same post.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#31. To: Original_Intent (#16)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#32. To: Eric Stratton (#31) (Edited)
On points too innumerable to list. And if the Ten Commandments come into conflict with the actions of the Zionist State the Ten Commandments are thrown out the window. There is a hell of a contradiction there. Based upon some man's questioned and disputed interpretation of a few out of context lines of scripture one is supposedly following God by ignoring God's laws. Of course the irony of that tends to elude the dispensationalists; along with most other observations regarding decency and common sense.
They flagrantly ignore Jesus' own words!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#33. To: Original_Intent (#32)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#34. To: Original_Intent (#0)
There is no rapture. II Thessalonians addresses this misconception.
#35. To: Red Jones (#17)
What exactly does that mean? That the government isn't stealing enough money from us at the point of a gun? Maybe you could point out that place in the Constitution that states that the government should have sympathy for the poor? Better yet, where does it state that the standard of living of one group of people should be decreased in order to increase the standard of living of another group? You liberals and Christian socialists are always whining about fairness but explain to me how it is fair to my family to steal from us and give it to someone else regardless of how undeserving they are? Your invisible sky God and your book of fairy tales only demands 10% from his followers, and then specifically states that how much they give is up to THEM, yet you would have the government forcibly take what...50%?...70%?...Just how fucking much is enough for you? I tell you what. I'll agree with giving more to the poor when you Christians get off your dead asses and follow your book of fairy tales by giving everything you own to the church so that they can redistribute it among the poor. That's how they did it in the Book of Acts. No where in your book do the Apostles and Disciples whine about what the government ISN'T doing. On the contrary, they expected not a damned thing from the government. If you ask me, you Christian socialists want the government to steal more of everyone's money so that you can wash your hands of the poor while standing on your high-horse and pretending you give a damn. I wonder if your God will agree with your "I gave at the office" excuse for not following your own Bible.
The regime that rules us has no sympathy for the poor.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
#36. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, Red Jones, all (#35)
Sympathy for the poor does not necessarily mean taking and redistributing. However, he has a point in that our tax and regulatory laws are burdens that fall most unequally on the poor. Sympathy for the poor could be expressed as simply as taking the government Jackboot off of their face.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#37. To: Original_Intent (#36)
Sympathy for the poor could be expressed as simply as taking the government Jackboot off of their face. I've read Red's posts long enough to know what he means. If you want a "fair" tax then tax everyone exactly the same, poor and rich.
Sympathy for the poor does not necessarily mean taking and redistributing. However, he has a point in that our tax and regulatory laws are burdens that fall most unequally on the poor.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
#38. To: FormerLurker, all (#23)
Yes they are. They worship a god that they believe will torture people in real fire for endless centuries, and all that for committing one "sin", which, BTW, they have no choice to commit because according to them we are all born sinners. Then, they have the gall to call this "justice". It's not a stretch to see how they are just like their insane little god. And this isn't even getting into the OT insanity of mass murder, blood sacrifice, slavery, rape, pillage etc that was commanded by their nutcase "god". Damned if it didn't take me decades to see this though. It's very powerful programming. .
They're "walking a path" alright, but not the one they think they're on.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
The second dumbest creature on the face of the earth is the one who cannot recognize its enemies. The most stupid of all is the one who will defend and collaborate with the very enemies that are destroying it and its own kind. -Ben Klassen
#39. To: PSUSA (#38)
Then, they have the gall to call this "justice". Can you imagine what these same people would say if a government treated its people in this same manner? They'd be screaming "tyranny!" and demanding the country be invaded.
They worship a god that they believe will torture people in real fire for endless centuries, and all that for committing one "sin", which, BTW, they have no choice to commit because according to them we are all born sinners.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
#40. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#35)
if you ask me, then I think you're pretty judgmental. You've ascribed many things to me that are from your imagination. everybody should have sympathy for the poor, it has nothing to do with ideology or politics. the clique that rules us today is not concerned about the poor. Many decisions are made that harm them. The clique that rules us today is concerned with their own clique of businesses, not with the poor. If you want to blame the existence of this clique that rules us on the poor, then this is your choice. but it is completely illogical to do so. The problems of this world and of yourself are not going to be solved by your ideologies. The bible says that a day will come when god will choose to hear the cries of the very poor people who are oppressed on this earth and as a result god will allow some horrible things to happen. These things will precipitate the end of the era we live in, 2'nd coming of Jesus, judgment of the people on this earth and the building of the kingdom of heaven here on earth which will be the next era. Today poor people in nations like Indonesia, Phillipines, Bengladesh and other nations cannot even get enough money together each day to buy some rice to live on. And over 10 million such people starve to death every year. The powers that be make decisions globally that impact negatively the poor. The poor are excluded from our economy. This will cause tremendous suffering. The one who made us will listen to the people who suffer in that manner. and that will trigger an end to the era that we live in.
If you ask me
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#41. To: Red Jones (#40)
if you ask me, then I think you're pretty judgmental. You've ascribed many things to me that are from your imagination. Please. I've read enough of your posts to know that you are an advocate sticking it to the rich by having the government steal more of their money. everybody should have sympathy for the poor, it has nothing to do with ideology or politics. Why? For most people being poor is a transitory period in their lives due to being young, being laid off, being sick, etc. Most people do not stay poor. I do have sympathy for those who are poor due to mental or physical disabilities. However, having owned a chain of medical equipment stores and having a wife who is a nurse practitioner in an ER, I know that many, if not most, of the poor are poor because they are either lazy or addicted to something. I do not feel sorry for these people. They are parasites and should either be forced to better themselves or live on the streets and starve. the clique that rules us today is not concerned about the poor. Many decisions are made that harm them. The clique that rules us today is concerned with their own clique of businesses, not with the poor. If you want to blame the existence of this clique that rules us on the poor, then this is your choice. but it is completely illogical to do so. The clique that rules us today doesn't care about anyone but themselves, their friends, their family members and those who fund their campaigns and speaking fees. Blame the poor because of the government? LOL! No where in my post did I do any such thing. I blame the dumb asses who continue to bounce between the two parties, expecting them to solve the problem in their lives. The problems of this world and of yourself are not going to be solved by your ideologies. The bible says that a day will come when god will choose to hear the cries of the very poor people who are oppressed on this earth and as a result god will allow some horrible things to happen. These things will precipitate the end of the era we live in, 2'nd coming of Jesus, judgment of the people on this earth and the building of the kingdom of heaven here on earth which will be the next era. Today poor people in nations like Indonesia, Phillipines, Bengladesh and other nations cannot even get enough money together each day to buy some rice to live on. And over 10 million such people starve to death every year. The powers that be make decisions globally that impact negatively the poor. The poor are excluded from our economy. This will cause tremendous suffering. The one who made us will listen to the people who suffer in that manner. and that will trigger an end to the era that we live in. Well if your invisible sky-god doesn't care enough to save them, then why the hell should I?
If you ask me
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
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