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Title: The Troubling Worldview of the 'Rapture-Ready' Christian
Source:
Lew Rockwell
URL Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell71.html
Published: Oct 7, 2010
Author: Bill Barnwell
Post Date: 2010-10-07 12:31:54 by Original_Intent
Keywords: Rapture, Scofield, Darby, Fatalism
Views: 1960
Comments: 100
When the subject of the "end-times" comes up, many Christians and non-Christians don’t want to talk about it. Some Christians, annoyed with all the competing theories and terminology just say, "What difference does it make? Jesus is coming back and I just need to be ready." Non-Christians just assume that since Christianity isn’t true, then the whole issue doesn’t matter. Well, actually, it does matter. I will submit that the popular doctrines of the Left Behind series pose very real threats not only to Christianity, but also to the wider culture. Probably most conservative Protestants (though not all of us) believe that humanity is certainly in the final generation of life on earth as we currently know it. Not that we "could be," but that "we must be." That’s a big distinction. They believe this because of their views on a couple key Biblical texts. The first is the Olivet Discourse. This discourse by Jesus about the "end of the age" can be found in Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. Dispensationalists – a group that believes God has two separate prophetic programs for Israel and the Church and generally believes that Christians will be removed from the earth before a final tribulation – see all of the events or signs spoken of by Jesus as referring to events that are happening now or going to happen very soon. Never mind that Jesus was first and foremost referring to events that would occur within his own disciples’ lifetime (Matthew 24:34). They believe that nothing past chapter 3 in the book of Revelation has occurred yet. It is all in the future, and all relates to the tribulation period, which true Christians will avoid. Another key text is Daniel 9:27. It is from this verse alone that we get the idea of a "seven-year tribulation" during the end times. But the New Testament says nothing about a seven-year tribulation. The book of Revelation refers to a 3.5–year period – five different times. They are most likely referring to the same time period. Dispensationalists believe by prophetic necessity a number of things. First, they assume that the world must get worse in just about all ways. Second, they assume that Daniel 9:27 calls for the rebuilding of a Third Jewish Temple at the site of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore, prophetic necessity demands that the current Islamic al-Aqsa mosque must be torn down to build this new Jewish Temple. Halfway through the tribulation period, the antichrist will come and exalt himself in the new Jewish Temple, stop sacrifices in the Temple, break a peace treaty he had earlier made with Israel, and proclaim himself to be God. They get all this from cutting and pasting Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 together and then associating those passages with everything that will be going on in Revelation 4–19. There are all sorts of problems with these interpretations. First of all, the New Testament says nothing about a "pretribulational rapture." To see how bankrupt that position is, read my offering on the subject here. The evidence for a "pre-trib" rapture is not just weak, it is non-existent. Regarding the key verse of Daniel 9:27, see my refutation of the dispensationalist position here. Read those, especially if you are a dispensationalist who already presupposes that I’m wrong. Once you begin thinking of the implications involved, you begin to see why this doctrine is so dangerous to everybody. Dispensationalists seem to have a preoccupation with war. In fact, right now, dispensationalist mega-church pastor John Hagee is preaching that a war with Iran is not only the right thing to do, but is prophetically inevitable. Apparently, Bible prophecy demands a showdown with Iran. You see, if you aren’t on the side of war, then you aren’t on the side of God. Talk of peace now becomes irrelevant. It’s God’s will that we be militarists. In fairness, not all dispensationalists are militarists. Our own Laurence Vance is an example. But they are in a definite minority. The prevailing worldview of dispensationalism glorifies war, militarism, and the State. The dispensationalist view of Daniel 9:27 provides some troubling implications as well. They don’t care that tearing down the al-Aqsa mosque would result in a regional war and cause all sorts of global distress. This would not be a bad thing in their minds. They believe that it was all foreordained and is a sign that the end of the world would be soon upon us. Also, if you buy into these interpretations, talks of peace in the Middle East are futile. Jews and Muslims must continue killing each other at high rates. And who will be the one bringing peace to the Middle East in this popular end-time paradigm? Not Jesus, but the Antichrist. Therefore, talk of Middle East peace during this current "dispensation" is not from Jesus, but the Antichrist. When dispensationalists hear talk of peace summits or treaties in the Middle East, they assume it must have evil origins and be antichristic. If that’s the cause, why bother trying to make the world a better place? All we need to do is be good Christians and wait for our ticket out of this earth and make way for the Antichrist. Dispensationalists are numerous and popular. Well-connected preachers like Hagee have political connections. Dispensational preachers and lobbyists have the ear of the White House and are directly trying to influence foreign policy based on their very questionable theological views, which, by the way, are less than 200 years old. This is more than just a quirky theology that doesn’t affect those who do not hold it. Dispensationalists want to bring about world events that would have catastrophic implications for other Christians and for non-Christians. If they are correct, why should any of us bother trying to make the world a better place? Dispensationalists get very annoyed at this question. They say, "Final peace on earth will only come through Christ!" They basically insist Christians trying to do good in the world should only focus on "spiritual things." Trying to change social institutions for the better is futile and presumptuous. Apparently the only two options are handing the world over to Satan or believing that humans can do everything in their own strength. Not much room for nuance here. Ironically, many dispensationalists are involved in the Religious Right movement and want to stem abortions, ban gay marriage and make America more Christian. But at the same time they believe in a theology that says the world can only get worse, that there’s nothing any of us can do about it, and that it’s about to get so bad Christians are going to be taken off of the earth. If the ship is irreversibly sinking, why try and patch up the leaks? If you need more proof that many dispensationalists hold troubling worldviews, just take a visit over to the Rapture Ready message board. The main site is one of the bigger dispensationalist/pretribulational sites on the web. You can read for yourselves how they view the world, how they can’t wait to escape it, and their obsession with war. One angry pre-tribber wrote me a few weeks back. He had this to say: When the RAPTURE of the CHURCH takes place, and mark my words it will, maybe them you will see the light! After you have been left behind you are going to look back on all the people that you deceived, who will probably be in your face at that time, and hopefully repent of the false gospel that you were teaching! It's not to late to be saved during the 7 year tribulation period but it will be harder when you hear that Christians, who become Christians after the Rapture of the Church, are being beheaded for the witness of Jesus! Hopefully you and those who partake of your beliefs will see the light before Christ comes for the Church! Notice in his mind I’m not even a real Christian. The reason? Because I happen to have a different position than he does on the issue of the "rapture." I’ll also apparently be too much of a coward to "convert" during the "7 year tribulation" because other people who become Christians after the pre-tribulational rapture are being beheaded. Ever notice with people who so strongly believe this doctrine that they assume everyone who will be "left behind" is going to be absolutely clueless? Maybe I too will just assume aliens came and abducted the "true Christians." Apparently I’d be too scared to be beheaded, even though I’d find myself instantly in heaven along with all the real Christians who were taken up in the rapture. Finally notice the great confidence of this guy. He is so convinced of his position that only an idiot or heretic would disagree. Well, I challenge people like this, and the crew over at Rapture Ready to actually put their interpretations up against the Scriptures and think about the logic and implications of their beliefs. The logic and implications are clear. Society is going to hades in a handbasket. There’s little we can do to stem the tide of evil. The Middle East must further deteriorate. Anyone who disagrees with Israel’s foreign policy is opposing God. The third most important site to Muslims must be crushed to make way for a new Jewish Temple. Good Christians should support the building of a new temple with new animal sacrifices taking place inside of it (compare Hebrews 10 to the theology of Darby and Hal Lindsey). And in a strange sense, war is kinda good and peace is kinda bad – since war is a sign that the end is near and peace on earth is a sign of the Antichrist. Any Christian who doesn’t agree with all this is deceived at best and a heretic at worst. When you understand that millions of Christians believe this way, and that some of them are actually fairly influential on the political scene, you begin to see why this theology needs to be refuted. By refuting it, dispensationalists think you’re trying to refute God. I would argue that you’re being more faithful to God and the very Scriptures themselves. This is not just an in-house debate that only affects myself and other Christians. Dispensationalists have a vision for the world and it is bad news for everybody. Therefore, it would do you all good to spend some time in the Bible and see what exactly the Scriptures have to say on this subject. February 2, 2007 Bill Barnwell [send him mail] is a pastor and writer from Michigan. He holds both a Master of Ministry degree and a Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Indiana. Visit his blog. Additional Data: 1830 The initial development of the pre-tribulation doctrine, either by the trance-induced 20-year-old Margaret Macdonald for by John Nelson Darby. 1855 John Cumming announces that Russian will invade Israel: The End; Or, The Proximate Signs of the Close of This Dispensation, Lecture 7. 1878 Publication of the immensely popular book by William E. Blackstone (W.E.B.), Jesus Is Coming. 1909 C. I. Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible is published by Oxford University Press. 1917 Balfour Declaration promises British support for the creation of a State of Israel in Palestine. 1925 The Scopes' "Monkey Trial" results in a public disgrace for William Jennings Bryan and the voluntary withdrawal of American fundamentalism from public discourse. 1926 Founding of Dallas Theological Seminary. 1948 The creation of the modern State of Israel, May 14: the "generation of the fig tree" supposedly begins. 1970 Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth creates a huge new market in "ticking clock" prophecy books: an unstated but obvious rejection of traditional dispensationalism's doctrine of any any-moment Rapture, which insists that the 70th week of Daniel begins only after the Rapture. 1980 The presidential race and victory of Ronald Reagan: the New Christian Right becomes visible in the U.S. 1981 Rapture postponed: 1988 (40 years after the creation of the State of Israel), minus 7years for the year of the Great Tribulation = 1981. 1988 Rapture postponed: May 14, the 40th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel. 1988 Rapture postponed: Edgar C. Whisenant's prediction of a September Rapture during the Jewish Rosh-hosanna. His book sells millions of copies, July through early September. 1989 Fall of the Berlin Wall in October. 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait on July 2. Dallas Seminary's Charles Dyer announces the revival of prophesied Babylon. 1991 January-February: U.S. obliterates Iraq's army. 1991 August 21: Defeat of the attempted Soviet coup; Soviet Union begins to break apart. 2000 The final year of the second millennium after the birth of Jesus. What if the Rapture is again postponed? 2001 The beginning of the third millennium after the birth of Jesus. What if the Rapture is again postponed? Poster Comment: I have for some years now had a few misgivings and outright objections to Dispensationalism, not so much due to my own theological misgivings as I had no real knowledge in the area, but from the actions and behavior of its followers. Curious by nature I wanted to understand the world view that could simultaneously claim to be followers of the "Prince of Peace" and at the same support horrific wars, mass murder, and the ongoing recreation of Sodom and Gomorrah that is the modern Marxist-Racist State which names itself Israel. As well the Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter" and acceptance, without opposition, of great evil as somehow fulfilling some great design further offended me as it is a total absolution from responsibility for creating a better, more sane, world. It would seem to me to be antithetical to the teachings of he whom we call Jesus Christ. That by their inaction, and even active support, evil is allowed to flourish at the expense of the innocent and that horrors of murder, torture, war, rape, and degradation are taken with a fatalistic aplomb as though it just doesn't matter as the world is coming to an end last Tuesday. And then to top it off is the apparent belief that by mouthing the correct phrases one will be absolved of creating, by inaction and lack of moral opposition, even supporting it, a great conflagration of evil and veritable hell on earth and be lifted magically away among the righteous for having done so. In effect, under dispensationalism, it appears that one somehow becomes more Christian by not being one, and more righteous for having turned a blind eye to the horrors that inaction, and at times open support, has brought to pass. Equally troubling is the penchant for hating which many of its followers seem to possess. Hate of muslims, hate of this, and hate of that and yet no time to hate and remedy the evils that beset our world. So, much for their following the path laid forth by he who was named Jesus. The contradictions and the results become only starker, and more malignant, the more I learn of the issue. I cannot begin to express the revulsion I feel for such a world view with the evil and misery it spawns.
Excerpted from Gary North's book
"Rapture Fever
Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed" (Published 1993)
(Available here as a free e-book download)
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#61. To: Original_Intent (#56)
Yeah, the Bible talks about people like that. Second Timothy, chapter 3, verse 7: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And Romans, chapter 1, verse 22 says: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. All I would suggest is to read the reference links that I posted in the errata immediately prior to my last post to you.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I might also suggest that this blade has two edges. For those who would take disrelated verses and then impute their own meaning upon plainly written words is the same kind of offense for which the Roman Church has been criticized.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
If you want to die, go ahead. But if not, don't just sit around waiting for the end of the world. How about YOU TRY TO FIX THE DAMN PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD, INSTEAD OF HOPING FOR GOD TO END IT ALL!! I would call you Nietzsche Wannabes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NietzscheWannabe Except Nietzsche Wannabes are doing something, moving towards a direction, even if is the end of all things, while you just sit around and wait for something to happen. You call people, such as those in the tea party, sheep, while it is really YOU that is "baaing" and complaining all the time, and doing nothing else to try toe fix the world. You all disgust me.
We can't just pick up a sword and go around hacking on pagans. Or can we?? Excerpt from the letter of St. Bernard to the Templars: 'The knights of Christ can fight the battles of their Lord with complete tranquility of conscience, fearing neither sin if they kill the enemy, nor the danger of being killed themselves. For to inflict death or to suffer death for Christ has nothing criminal about it, but rather brings an abundant claim to glory. By the first he gives glory to Christ, by the latter, he gains Christ Himself. The Lord, without a doubt, gladly accepts the death of the enemy as punishment; and yet more gladly gives Himself to the fallen knight as consolation. The knight of Christ may strike with confidence and die yet more confidently, for he serves Christ when he kills, and serves himself when he dies. Nor does he bear the sword in vain, for he is God’s minister to punish the evildoers and to exalt the good. When he kills an evildoer, he is not a murderer, but, if I may so put it, a killer of evil. It is necessary to see him as both the avenger at the service of Christ and the protector of the Christian people. Should he be killed himself, however, we know that he has not perished but has achieved eternal glory. Therefore, the death he inflicts is to Christ’s profit, and the death he receives is for his own gain. The Christian rejoices in the death of the pagan because Christ is glorified; while the death of the Christian gives the King occasion to show his liberality by rewarding the deserving knight. In the first case, the just man shall rejoice when he sees the punishment of the evil man. And in the latter, he will say, “Truly there is a reward for the just. Truly it is God who judges the earth." Certainly pagans should not be killed if there is any other way to prevent them from oppressing and persecuting the faithful. But it is much better to kill them than to have the just ones forever under the yoke of the wicked, and bending their knees to the iniquity of the pagans.' ~St. Bernard, De Laude Novae Milititae, Migne, P.L. vol. 182, col. 924
__________________________________________________________ I'm with you that is exactly my complaint about the dispensationalists i.e., what I call Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter". Completely wrong from my point of view. It is my belief that God expects of us to do something about evils in our world. However, the dispensationalists view that as pointless, because as they have been predicting for the last 200 years the world is going to end last week and if you haven't mouthed the right words it's "coitans".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I never heard any say the world is going to end "last week." No Christian that I know tries to predict God's timing because they know it is in his hands.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Rhetorical hyperbole on my part. I just didn't use an /Sarcasm assuming it was clear from context. However, look at the timeline included at the bottom of the article. As well I know Hal Lindsay gave a prediction. However, that was really not my point - it is the implicit presumption that the "End Times" rapture is going to occur "any moment now". Take a look at the "Rapture Ready" Forum. Between war mongering and wishing for hundreds of millions of dead there is the assumption that not only are they among the righteous but that that they are going to be taken home to "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Geeeez - And I thought Cynicom was a cynic.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" The fact is that it CAN happen any time. But as I said before, the timing is in God's hands and he knows when it will be. I don't and I don't claim to. I have an idea when I think it might be but not a specific date per se.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. In the King James Bible, the word "temple" is not even in Daniel 9:27 or Matthew 24:15. Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to other scriptures like Daniel 11:36 listed here: http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm. "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard- of things against the God of gods." At 2 Thessalonians 2:4, these are the Greek words for the numerical references in the phrase "so 5620 that he 846 as 5613 God 2316 sitteth 2523 in 1519 the temple 3485 of God 2316, shewing 584 himself 1438 that 3754 he is 2076 God 2316": hoste autos hos theos kathizo eis naos theos apodeiknymi heautou hoti esti theos. By studying the definitions given for those words, the phrase could be interpreted as a person or kingdom established/appointed as if they/it are the image of God. This link explains that Ancient Israel's biblical-agricultural calendar was based upon seven year cycles. However, I think there are 11 days difference between their lunar calendar and the solar calendar. Anyway, the seventh years of their calendar cycles are Sabbath years. 2009-2010 is a Sabbath year. Here is a link to a Google video that is almost an hour long but, after the first 20 minutes or so, the narrator starts mentioning calculations and the seventh year as it pertains to their interpretations of scriptures. He says that the Messiah is to come after the seventh year: Israeli War Hizbullah Lebanon Iran Gaza The Zero Hour israel hidabroot. This is another video at YouTube that suggests the year 2012 is when that is expected: end of days year 2012 in bible codes. End of days can be interpreted as latter days. Ex: Deuteronomy 4:29-32.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
What you say, Dude!
"Satan / Cheney in "08" The author is mistaken. The proper term is Rapture Monkey , not rapture nut.
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
While by no means do I make pretensions to being a theologian something I have observed before is that many prophetic traditions have this time as either a culmination or a time of great flux and change. The Hopi, Zuni, and Lakotah/Nakotah prophecies (although short lived as someone killed it, the White Buffalo was born, as well is the Mayan Calenda, along with the Bible and even Nicolai Nostradamus all pointing at this time as one which will see a change in our civilization again shifting back toward the spiritual. As well, on a hopeful note, Nostradamus prediction was for a thousand years of peace following the great turmoil we are now in the midst of. And contrary to any other speculations I would observe that Nostradamus was a devout Christian and has an amazing record of accuracy. Although in many cases he was so cryptic, for fear of the inquisition, that he coded everything.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
well, this thread was sure an interesting read. i don't get into debate about this topic or the bible for that matter. it's an exercise in futility, imo. it amazes me how many different ways people can and do interpret each and every verse's meaning though.
Ordinarily I also avoid religious debates, and I make no scholarly claims in the area. However, the toxicity of Christian Zionism, and it's twisted perversion of the Scriptures have to be confronted in one fashion or another for the protection of all. The fatalistic, and even ghoulish, views and actions, or inactions, of the dispensationalists are promoting much evil in our world. Despite their pretensions to Christianity their fruit has a rather devilish odor.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Original_Intent: One problem. The Book of Revelations IS considered part of the New Testament. I didn't get the impression that the author was confused about that. It's my opinion that there is no "Battle of Armageddon" in the Book of Revelation. Refs: Revelation 16:16, Revelation 19:11-21. There is a gathering for battle by the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies but the beast and the false prohet are captured and thrown into the fiery lake of brimstone, a word which has the conotation of purifying. The others there are "slain" by the sword of the Faithful and True rider on the white horse, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords -- by the sword of His mouth, symbolic of Truth. The word "slain" has the conotations of being destroyed by Truth, abolished by Truth, and deprived of spiritual life by Truth. Ark means gathering place in Hebrew. Armageddon can mean "place of crowds" - Megiddown. The UN, for example, is a gathering place of "kings" and it has crowds. I might also point out that the author of the piece, which I did search for and choose with some care, holds not 1 but 2 Master's Degrees in Theology.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#62. To: James Deffenbach (#61)
#63. To: James Deffenbach (#61)
Yeah, the Bible talks about people like that. Second Timothy, chapter 3, verse 7: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And Romans, chapter 1, verse 22 says: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
#64. To: Original_Intent (#2)
#65. To: PaulCJ (#64)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#66. To: PaulCJ (#64)
#67. To: Original_Intent (#66)
However, the dispensationalists view that as pointless, because as they have been predicting for the last 200 years the world is going to end last week
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#68. To: James Deffenbach (#67)
the mother ship* heaven any time now.
*Sorry, couldn't resist. Please excuse my warped sense of humor.
#69. To: FormerLurker (#11)
little spheres telling them to "walk into the light". Thing is, those little spheres generating the "light" could well transport them to an alien mothership, to be herded and kept as food for an intersteller voyage.
#70. To: Original_Intent (#68)
it is the implicit presumption that the "End Times" rapture is going to occur "any moment now".
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#71. To: Original_Intent (#0)
Another key text is Daniel 9:27. It is from this verse alone that we get the idea of a "seven-year tribulation" during the end times. But the New Testament says nothing about a seven-year tribulation. The book of Revelation refers to a 3.5–year period – five different times. They are most likely referring to the same time period. Dispensationalists believe by prophetic necessity a number of things. First, they assume that the world must get worse in just about all ways. Second, they assume that Daniel 9:27 calls for the rebuilding of a Third Jewish Temple at the site of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore, prophetic necessity demands that the current Islamic al-Aqsa mosque must be torn down to build this new Jewish Temple. Halfway through the tribulation period, the antichrist will come and exalt himself in the new Jewish Temple, stop sacrifices in the Temple, break a peace treaty he had earlier made with Israel, and proclaim himself to be God. They get all this from cutting and pasting Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 together and then associating those passages with everything that will be going on in Revelation 4–19.
#72. To: GreyLmist (#71)
the God of gods." At 2 Thessalonians 2:4, these are the Greek words for the numerical references in the phrase "so 5620 that he 846 as 5613 God 2316 sitteth 2523 in 1519 the temple 3485 of God 2316, shewing 584 himself 1438 that 3754 he is 2076 God 2316": hoste autos hos theos kathizo eis naos theos apodeiknymi heautou hoti esti theos. By studying the definitions given for those words, the phrase could be interpreted as a person or kingdom established/appointed as if they/it are the image of God.
#73. To: James Deffenbach (#44)
I agree with you and find all the references to "rapture nuts" and all the other names Christians are called very mean spirited.
#74. To: GreyLmist (#71)
#75. To: Original_Intent (#1)
#76. To: christine (#75)
well, this thread was sure an interesting read. i don't get into debate about this topic or the bible for that matter. it's an exercise in futility, imo. it amazes me how many different ways people can and do interpret each and every verse's meaning though.
#77. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, farmfriend (#51)
(Edited)
James Deffenbach: And I stopped reading the article at the point where the author seemed confused about the Book of Revelation being in the New Testament.
-------
"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#78. To: Original_Intent (#66)
Completely wrong from my point of view. I "Christian Fatalists" is a good enough term as any for the groups we are talking about.
I'm with you that is exactly my complaint about the dispensationalists i.e., what I call Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter".
#79. To: GreyLmist (#77)
Thank you I was beginning to think I was alone in what I see as the import of our times. Not a world ending but the end of one age and the rebirth of a more spiritual world. Time will tell, but I think, and pray, that the minions of the dark will be turned back and that the end will be the beginning. What I pray for is a universal salvation, and a resurrection of a more spiritual society and culture, and ultimately even redemption of those who would have denied it to us, but only after a good long penance with suitable amends. In short I pray for the rise of a true civilization not a barbarism with deadly toys.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#80. To: GreyLmist, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, (#77)
Now there is something to ponder.
The UN, for example, is a gathering place of "kings" and it has crowds.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#81. To: Original_Intent, GreyLmist, abraxas, Armadillo, wididiz, christine, Jethro Tull, Lod (#79)
Now that is an interesting point. If you read the book Fourth Turning, written by two historians, you find the second turning is a spiritual awakening. The 60s were such a turning. We are just coming out of a first turning. Very interesting comment. Again something to ponder. I think the authors description is colored by the 60s. Second Turning - Awakening
Not a world ending but the end of one age and the rebirth of a more spiritual world.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#82. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent, abraxas (#81)
It's my understanding that a "First Turning" is like after WW2. The nation was strong and proud. I believe we are entering a Fourth Turning. America will come out of the current economic crisis. The only question is what kind of "First Turning" will we have? A totalitarian one, or a free one? I believe America to be divinely predestined. If you look at the life of George Washington, his experiences practically scream divine intervention. He was a real life action hero. The entire founding seems divinely predestined.We are just coming out of a first turning. Very interesting comment. Again something to ponder.
A "Second Turning" is like the 60's, and era of spiritual upheaval. A "Third Turning" is like the 80's, with a new civic order. A "Fourth Turning" is great discontinuity and crisis, like the depression.
People have always thought the end times where when they were living. Early Christians thought Jesus was going to return soon to save them from the Romans. Instead, Christians took over Rome. 2000 years later, we're still waiting for Jesus and predicting his eminent arrival. Time is nothing to Him, He will come when it's right. Jesus says clearly that no one will know when the end is coming. Anyone who claims they know, must be wrong.
Or maybe, since the country is beyond bankrupt, a new nation(s) will form from its ashes.
What Gods plan for America is, I dont know.
-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.
#83. To: Armadillo, Original_Intent, abraxas (#82)
Not according to the book: Like the four seasons of nature, the four turnings of history are equally necessary and important. Awakenings and Crises are the saecular solstices, summer and winter, each a solution to a challenge posed by the other. Highs and Unravelings are the saecular equinoxes, spring and autumn, each coursing a path directionally opposed to the other. When a society moves into an Awakening or Crisis, the new mood announces itself as a sudden turn in social direction. An Awakening begins when events trigger a revolution in the culture, a Crisis when events trigger an upheaval in public life. A High or Unraveling announces itself as a sudden consolidation of the new direction. A High begins when society perceives that the basic issues of the prior Crisis have been resolved, leaving a new civic regime firmly in place. An Unraveling begins with the perception that the Awakening has been resolved, leaving a new cultural mindset in place. The gateway to a new turning can be obvious and dramatic (like the 1929 Stock Crash) or subtle and gradual (like 1984’s Morning in America). It usually occurs two to five years after a new generation of children starts being born. The tight link between turning gateways and generational boundaries enables each archetype to fill an entire phase-of-life just as the mood of an old turning grows stale and feels ripe for replacement with something new. The four turnings comprise a quaternal social cycle of growth, maturation, entropy, and death (and rebirth). In a springlike High, a society fortifies and builds and converges in an era of promise. In a summerlike Awakening, it dreams and plays and exults in an era of euphoria. In an autumnal Unraveling, it harvests and consumes and diverges in an era of anxiety. In a hibernal Crisis, it focuses and struggles and sacrifices in an era of survival. When the saeculum is in motion, therefore, no long human lifetime can go by without a society confronting its deepest spiritual and worldly needs. Modernity has thus far produced six repetitions of each turning, each repetition lasting roughly the duration of a phase of life and corresponding to an identical constellation of generational archetypes. Each sequential set of four turnings constitutes a saeculum. It's my understanding that a "First Turning" is like after WW2. The nation was strong and proud. A "Second Turning" is like the 60's, and era of spiritual upheaval. A "Third Turning" is like the 80's, with a new civic order. A "Fourth Turning" is great discontinuity and crisis, like the depression.
A turning is an era with a characteristic social mood, a new twist on how people feel about themselves and their nation. It results from the aging of the generational constellation. A society enters a turning once every twenty years or so, when all living generations begin to enter their next phases of life. Like archetypes and constellations, turnings come four to a saeculum, and always in the same order:
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#84. To: farmfriend (#83) (Edited)
I haven't read the book, just what I've read elsewhere and from a radio interview with the author. Am I in error about the authors opinion, or have you formulated your own associations for the turnings? Or maybe dumbass Armadillo should just read the book...
Not according to the book
It was my understanding that the author associated 1st after WW2, 2nd with the 60's, 3rd with the 80's, and the fourth now. And the author made some predictions about the 4th that seem like now.
-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.
#85. To: Armadillo (#84)
I've formulated my own for my 4um associations. As the Armadillo turns and/or As the farmfriend turns....has a soap opera ring to it. : )
formulated your own associations for the turnings
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#86. To: abraxas, farmfriend (#85)
On this weeks episode of As the Armadillo turns...As the Armadillo turns and/or As the farmfriend turns....has a soap opera ring to it. : )
With all the animals on this forum, armadillo, turtle, critter, hounddog, coral snake, we need a Farm Friend to keep us in order.
Armadillo posts flawless logic, only to be rebuffed once again. Disconsolate, he withdraws to his burrow.
Tune in next week when Armadillo posts TMI, and ends up looking creepy.
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"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.
#87. To: Armadillo (#84)
Mmmm there is a lot of things I can think of your ass to do... Yes. The post I did above on the turnings was taken off their web site. The fourth turning is characterized by a crisis. 9/11? Financial collapse? WWII and the crash of the stock market were the previous crises, or fourth turning.
Or maybe dumbass Armadillo should just read the book...
I haven't read the book, just what I've read elsewhere and from a radio interview with the author. It was my understanding that the author associated 1st after WW2, 2nd with the 60's, 3rd with the 80's, and the fourth now. And the author made some predictions about the 4th that seem like now.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#88. To: Armadillo, abraxas (#86)
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#89. To: abraxas, Armadillo, christine (#85)
As the 4um turns. LOL
As the Armadillo turns and/or As the farmfriend turns....has a soap opera ring to it. : )
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#90. To: Armadillo, farmfriend (#86)
I'll bring the popcorn. : )
Tune in next week when Armadillo posts TMI, and ends up looking creepy.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#91. To: Original_Intent (#1) (Edited)
Rapture I don't agree with every point [at least at this time], but here are some lessons in the above. The "rapture" disarms Christians who should be "fighting" for Christ's Kingdom which has come [ bible.cc/john/18-36.htm "world" doesn't mean "earth" here; it means government, constitution, order of things, as in that Old World Order of the Whore (Jerusalem) riding the Beast (Rome)]. "Dispensationalism" allows Jews to make a liar out of Christ who called them the Synagogue of Satan who would come and worship before the Christians [Rev. 3:9], and gives them "chosen people" status, whereas He said they would be cursed [Isaiah 65:15 (unless they accepted Christ, of course)]. "Millennialism" gives room to the Judeo-British Empire to wage war against the rest of the world under their delusion of "divine right to rule". See British-Israelism at the bottom of the link, and www.seekgod.ca/identity.htm , and "British Israel: The Hidden Hand Behind the 'The Kingdom of God on Earth' Deception - British Israel Uses Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals to Promote the "Kingdom of God on Earth' Scheme to Deliver Up A One World Society-Both Feudal and Fascist" http://www.redicecreations.com/s.../08aug/britishisrael.html . Here's the proof: http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/art...british-israel/index.html http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/art...rael/british-israel-2.htm http://www.scepterofjudah.com/We...ly/SJZionDailyReport.html [etc.] ======================== There's a better way [I don't agree with every point on the following either, particularly his view on the Floundering Fathers, but it's a great start; I couldn't have done it!]: "The Christmas Conspiracy! is a growing number of Christians around the world whose goal reaches beyond the U.S. and seeks to hasten the day in which all governments will "beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks" and everyone will sit safely and securely "under their Vine and Fig Tree" (Micah 4:1-7). The way to achieve a "Vine & Fig Tree" society is to overthrow the governments of every nation on earth by persuading dictators and bureaucrats to recognize publicly and officially that the Babe born on the first Christmas is the only legitimate King. Our weapons are reason and logic, our strategy is mass political resignation, not assassination, and our tactics are persuasion and winsome character, not force and violence. This goal is to be achieved by putting Christ's commands into practice in our own lives. The Christmas Conspiracy! repudiates monarchy, democracy, oligarchy and all other humanistic forms of government, and advocates Anarcho-Theocracy....." http://vftonline.org/xmaspiracy/index.htm This man studied to become lawyer and couldn't pass the Bar, because apparently Christians can't become lawyers in California. He refused to take their antiChristian oath. I just found out the other day he is running for Congress, and he is having some sort of webcast this morning [unfortunately I won't be able to listen]. http://vftonline.org/Craig4Congress/issues/liberty.htm "OZARKS VIRTUAL TOWN HALL Every Saturday you can join a virtual Town Hall to discuss Now in our 4th year! Click here for the October 9th, 2010 10:30am LIVE Webcast Join the Discussion! =================== edit: This man studied to become a lawyer and couldn't pass the Bar, because apparently Christians can't become lawyers in California. "lawyer" should have read "attorney", as in attorn the chattel to the Banksters. They don't practice "law"; they practice Babylonian UCC Codes under Land Piracy [Admiralty]. I hadn't had my coffee yet; sorry for the error:)
&
Premillennialism
&
Dispensationalism
Refuted
Saturday Mornings, 10:30am Central Time
A Christian/Libertarian Discussion of
The President's Saturday Morning Radio Address
the President's weekly Saturday Morning Radio Address to the nation
-- or anything else you'd like to discuss!
Submit your question or comment right NOW....."
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#92. To: Original_Intent (#91)
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) Isaiah 52:15 He will cleanse many nations [with his blood]. Kings will shut their mouths because of him. They will see things that they had never been told. They will understand things that they had never heard. "Millennialism" gives room to the Judeo-British Empire to wage war against the rest of the world under their delusion of "divine right to rule".
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#93. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#91)
Thank you. Your scholarship adds substance where my knowledge is found wanting. I have increasingly found the viewpoints of the Premillennialist/rapture monkey/dispensensational viewpoint increasingly repugnant because of the evil they support, but lack the scholarship to show it for the bowlderization of Christian Theology that it is. You have nicely filled the gap where I want.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#94. To: farmfriend, Armadillo, Original_Intent, all (#81) (Edited)
There are some themes and memes that have the effect of cancer cells -- Dispensationalism; Millenialism; good from evil; suffering is good evolutionally -- for lumpenproles; people deserve bad government if that's what they get. Imo, that book amounts to New Age Chaos Theory which is just a "chic" extension of the deliberate Chaos conditions that social-engineers have been orchestrating through the milleniums for their predictive gains and amusements. It's "lipstick" on those Discordian pigs to foster conformity and resignation, even a sort of "nature worship", for what they've scripted as our pre- fabricated generational fates -- all "destined" at some point to be trapped in their "boom and bust" cycles of failure and struggle to recuperate. Too bad for those unlucky enough to be born into a generation slated to end at a low point as if their group were just natural born failures. No thanks. Not my idea of a good guide or even a good read. Meanwhile, how is it "TPTB" maniacal monsters avoid charges of child abuse as they smirkingly market Chaos conditioning and perversions to childen on channels like Cartoon Network and get paid to do it? Yesterday's episode of The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy (which has a death theme) was titled "Complete and Utter Chaos" (#3.13, released 15 October 2004). The plot was about the mythological Apple of Discord and the "goddess" Eris was modeled after Madonna. One of the ending lines was about a head up a horse's butt and a picture of that was shown. For six years since that "cartoon" debuted, "Child Protective Services" hasn't been concerned at all with how negatively children are being affected by that and other gross media manipulations of their psyches. That's just one example of many but they're concerned instead about removing a child from her parents because of the father's affiliation with Oath Keepers and seeing that homosexuals get to have access to other people's children because Nature won't give them one of their own through their chosen lifestyle. I suppose if we listen to Strauss and Howe, they'll tell us it's just a downward phase to be expected as naturally cyclic and not an intentionally debilitating cultural calamity -- that maybe these generations just had the misfortune of being born into a long low point. I'd like to "throw the book at them" -- charge them as Chaos Agents of confusion and despair and fatalism.
the book Fourth Turning, written by two historians
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#95. To: Original_Intent (#93)
I find the use of the term "rapture monkey" very offensive and repugnant too. What's the problem, you just can't stand it that some people don't share your exact view?
I have increasingly found the viewpoints of the Premillennialist/rapture monkey/dispensensational viewpoint increasingly repugnant
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#96. To: GreyLmist, Armadillo, Original_Intent, abraxas (#94)
Your point is well taken though I disagree with your characterization of the authors and their book. It is not fatalistic in anyway and they freely admit that they are dealing in generalities that don't always fit as with everything in life. cycles are just that, cycles. They are fluid and every changing. They even give examples where history made leaps, completely skipping sections of the general cycle.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#97. To: farmfriend (#96)
I have really got to read that book. I've been intending to get it for a while.
There are so many good ones out now. Glenn Beck (yes, I know) has some good books on his show.
Lots of reading, not much time.
-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.
#98. To: Armadillo, abraxas (#97)
Well I would hate to see you give up some of your other hobbies.
Lots of reading, not much time.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#99. To: farmfriend, abraxas (#98)
Maybe I could combine them. You've given me a good idea. The photo name- "The Radical."
Well I would hate to see you give up some of your other hobbies.
An art nude photo of reading "Fourth Turning".
Shot at 45 degree right-frontal, seated in a wooden chair, right foot on left knee, face obscured with the book. Black background.
With "Atlas Shrugged", "Democracy in America", "The Road to Serfdom", "George Washington's Sacred Fire", "The 5000 Year Leap" and "The Federalist Papers" stacked on a desk nearby.
-------
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
-Carl Sagan.
#100. To: Armadillo (#99)
LOL I'd like to see it.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
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