See other Religion Articles
Title: The Troubling Worldview of the 'Rapture-Ready' Christian
Source:
Lew Rockwell
URL Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell71.html
Published: Oct 7, 2010
Author: Bill Barnwell
Post Date: 2010-10-07 12:31:54 by Original_Intent
Keywords: Rapture, Scofield, Darby, Fatalism
Views: 1849
Comments: 100
When the subject of the "end-times" comes up, many Christians and non-Christians don’t want to talk about it. Some Christians, annoyed with all the competing theories and terminology just say, "What difference does it make? Jesus is coming back and I just need to be ready." Non-Christians just assume that since Christianity isn’t true, then the whole issue doesn’t matter. Well, actually, it does matter. I will submit that the popular doctrines of the Left Behind series pose very real threats not only to Christianity, but also to the wider culture. Probably most conservative Protestants (though not all of us) believe that humanity is certainly in the final generation of life on earth as we currently know it. Not that we "could be," but that "we must be." That’s a big distinction. They believe this because of their views on a couple key Biblical texts. The first is the Olivet Discourse. This discourse by Jesus about the "end of the age" can be found in Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. Dispensationalists – a group that believes God has two separate prophetic programs for Israel and the Church and generally believes that Christians will be removed from the earth before a final tribulation – see all of the events or signs spoken of by Jesus as referring to events that are happening now or going to happen very soon. Never mind that Jesus was first and foremost referring to events that would occur within his own disciples’ lifetime (Matthew 24:34). They believe that nothing past chapter 3 in the book of Revelation has occurred yet. It is all in the future, and all relates to the tribulation period, which true Christians will avoid. Another key text is Daniel 9:27. It is from this verse alone that we get the idea of a "seven-year tribulation" during the end times. But the New Testament says nothing about a seven-year tribulation. The book of Revelation refers to a 3.5–year period – five different times. They are most likely referring to the same time period. Dispensationalists believe by prophetic necessity a number of things. First, they assume that the world must get worse in just about all ways. Second, they assume that Daniel 9:27 calls for the rebuilding of a Third Jewish Temple at the site of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore, prophetic necessity demands that the current Islamic al-Aqsa mosque must be torn down to build this new Jewish Temple. Halfway through the tribulation period, the antichrist will come and exalt himself in the new Jewish Temple, stop sacrifices in the Temple, break a peace treaty he had earlier made with Israel, and proclaim himself to be God. They get all this from cutting and pasting Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 together and then associating those passages with everything that will be going on in Revelation 4–19. There are all sorts of problems with these interpretations. First of all, the New Testament says nothing about a "pretribulational rapture." To see how bankrupt that position is, read my offering on the subject here. The evidence for a "pre-trib" rapture is not just weak, it is non-existent. Regarding the key verse of Daniel 9:27, see my refutation of the dispensationalist position here. Read those, especially if you are a dispensationalist who already presupposes that I’m wrong. Once you begin thinking of the implications involved, you begin to see why this doctrine is so dangerous to everybody. Dispensationalists seem to have a preoccupation with war. In fact, right now, dispensationalist mega-church pastor John Hagee is preaching that a war with Iran is not only the right thing to do, but is prophetically inevitable. Apparently, Bible prophecy demands a showdown with Iran. You see, if you aren’t on the side of war, then you aren’t on the side of God. Talk of peace now becomes irrelevant. It’s God’s will that we be militarists. In fairness, not all dispensationalists are militarists. Our own Laurence Vance is an example. But they are in a definite minority. The prevailing worldview of dispensationalism glorifies war, militarism, and the State. The dispensationalist view of Daniel 9:27 provides some troubling implications as well. They don’t care that tearing down the al-Aqsa mosque would result in a regional war and cause all sorts of global distress. This would not be a bad thing in their minds. They believe that it was all foreordained and is a sign that the end of the world would be soon upon us. Also, if you buy into these interpretations, talks of peace in the Middle East are futile. Jews and Muslims must continue killing each other at high rates. And who will be the one bringing peace to the Middle East in this popular end-time paradigm? Not Jesus, but the Antichrist. Therefore, talk of Middle East peace during this current "dispensation" is not from Jesus, but the Antichrist. When dispensationalists hear talk of peace summits or treaties in the Middle East, they assume it must have evil origins and be antichristic. If that’s the cause, why bother trying to make the world a better place? All we need to do is be good Christians and wait for our ticket out of this earth and make way for the Antichrist. Dispensationalists are numerous and popular. Well-connected preachers like Hagee have political connections. Dispensational preachers and lobbyists have the ear of the White House and are directly trying to influence foreign policy based on their very questionable theological views, which, by the way, are less than 200 years old. This is more than just a quirky theology that doesn’t affect those who do not hold it. Dispensationalists want to bring about world events that would have catastrophic implications for other Christians and for non-Christians. If they are correct, why should any of us bother trying to make the world a better place? Dispensationalists get very annoyed at this question. They say, "Final peace on earth will only come through Christ!" They basically insist Christians trying to do good in the world should only focus on "spiritual things." Trying to change social institutions for the better is futile and presumptuous. Apparently the only two options are handing the world over to Satan or believing that humans can do everything in their own strength. Not much room for nuance here. Ironically, many dispensationalists are involved in the Religious Right movement and want to stem abortions, ban gay marriage and make America more Christian. But at the same time they believe in a theology that says the world can only get worse, that there’s nothing any of us can do about it, and that it’s about to get so bad Christians are going to be taken off of the earth. If the ship is irreversibly sinking, why try and patch up the leaks? If you need more proof that many dispensationalists hold troubling worldviews, just take a visit over to the Rapture Ready message board. The main site is one of the bigger dispensationalist/pretribulational sites on the web. You can read for yourselves how they view the world, how they can’t wait to escape it, and their obsession with war. One angry pre-tribber wrote me a few weeks back. He had this to say: When the RAPTURE of the CHURCH takes place, and mark my words it will, maybe them you will see the light! After you have been left behind you are going to look back on all the people that you deceived, who will probably be in your face at that time, and hopefully repent of the false gospel that you were teaching! It's not to late to be saved during the 7 year tribulation period but it will be harder when you hear that Christians, who become Christians after the Rapture of the Church, are being beheaded for the witness of Jesus! Hopefully you and those who partake of your beliefs will see the light before Christ comes for the Church! Notice in his mind I’m not even a real Christian. The reason? Because I happen to have a different position than he does on the issue of the "rapture." I’ll also apparently be too much of a coward to "convert" during the "7 year tribulation" because other people who become Christians after the pre-tribulational rapture are being beheaded. Ever notice with people who so strongly believe this doctrine that they assume everyone who will be "left behind" is going to be absolutely clueless? Maybe I too will just assume aliens came and abducted the "true Christians." Apparently I’d be too scared to be beheaded, even though I’d find myself instantly in heaven along with all the real Christians who were taken up in the rapture. Finally notice the great confidence of this guy. He is so convinced of his position that only an idiot or heretic would disagree. Well, I challenge people like this, and the crew over at Rapture Ready to actually put their interpretations up against the Scriptures and think about the logic and implications of their beliefs. The logic and implications are clear. Society is going to hades in a handbasket. There’s little we can do to stem the tide of evil. The Middle East must further deteriorate. Anyone who disagrees with Israel’s foreign policy is opposing God. The third most important site to Muslims must be crushed to make way for a new Jewish Temple. Good Christians should support the building of a new temple with new animal sacrifices taking place inside of it (compare Hebrews 10 to the theology of Darby and Hal Lindsey). And in a strange sense, war is kinda good and peace is kinda bad – since war is a sign that the end is near and peace on earth is a sign of the Antichrist. Any Christian who doesn’t agree with all this is deceived at best and a heretic at worst. When you understand that millions of Christians believe this way, and that some of them are actually fairly influential on the political scene, you begin to see why this theology needs to be refuted. By refuting it, dispensationalists think you’re trying to refute God. I would argue that you’re being more faithful to God and the very Scriptures themselves. This is not just an in-house debate that only affects myself and other Christians. Dispensationalists have a vision for the world and it is bad news for everybody. Therefore, it would do you all good to spend some time in the Bible and see what exactly the Scriptures have to say on this subject. February 2, 2007 Bill Barnwell [send him mail] is a pastor and writer from Michigan. He holds both a Master of Ministry degree and a Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Indiana. Visit his blog. Additional Data: 1830 The initial development of the pre-tribulation doctrine, either by the trance-induced 20-year-old Margaret Macdonald for by John Nelson Darby. 1855 John Cumming announces that Russian will invade Israel: The End; Or, The Proximate Signs of the Close of This Dispensation, Lecture 7. 1878 Publication of the immensely popular book by William E. Blackstone (W.E.B.), Jesus Is Coming. 1909 C. I. Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible is published by Oxford University Press. 1917 Balfour Declaration promises British support for the creation of a State of Israel in Palestine. 1925 The Scopes' "Monkey Trial" results in a public disgrace for William Jennings Bryan and the voluntary withdrawal of American fundamentalism from public discourse. 1926 Founding of Dallas Theological Seminary. 1948 The creation of the modern State of Israel, May 14: the "generation of the fig tree" supposedly begins. 1970 Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth creates a huge new market in "ticking clock" prophecy books: an unstated but obvious rejection of traditional dispensationalism's doctrine of any any-moment Rapture, which insists that the 70th week of Daniel begins only after the Rapture. 1980 The presidential race and victory of Ronald Reagan: the New Christian Right becomes visible in the U.S. 1981 Rapture postponed: 1988 (40 years after the creation of the State of Israel), minus 7years for the year of the Great Tribulation = 1981. 1988 Rapture postponed: May 14, the 40th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel. 1988 Rapture postponed: Edgar C. Whisenant's prediction of a September Rapture during the Jewish Rosh-hosanna. His book sells millions of copies, July through early September. 1989 Fall of the Berlin Wall in October. 1990 Iraq invades Kuwait on July 2. Dallas Seminary's Charles Dyer announces the revival of prophesied Babylon. 1991 January-February: U.S. obliterates Iraq's army. 1991 August 21: Defeat of the attempted Soviet coup; Soviet Union begins to break apart. 2000 The final year of the second millennium after the birth of Jesus. What if the Rapture is again postponed? 2001 The beginning of the third millennium after the birth of Jesus. What if the Rapture is again postponed? Poster Comment: I have for some years now had a few misgivings and outright objections to Dispensationalism, not so much due to my own theological misgivings as I had no real knowledge in the area, but from the actions and behavior of its followers. Curious by nature I wanted to understand the world view that could simultaneously claim to be followers of the "Prince of Peace" and at the same support horrific wars, mass murder, and the ongoing recreation of Sodom and Gomorrah that is the modern Marxist-Racist State which names itself Israel. As well the Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter" and acceptance, without opposition, of great evil as somehow fulfilling some great design further offended me as it is a total absolution from responsibility for creating a better, more sane, world. It would seem to me to be antithetical to the teachings of he whom we call Jesus Christ. That by their inaction, and even active support, evil is allowed to flourish at the expense of the innocent and that horrors of murder, torture, war, rape, and degradation are taken with a fatalistic aplomb as though it just doesn't matter as the world is coming to an end last Tuesday. And then to top it off is the apparent belief that by mouthing the correct phrases one will be absolved of creating, by inaction and lack of moral opposition, even supporting it, a great conflagration of evil and veritable hell on earth and be lifted magically away among the righteous for having done so. In effect, under dispensationalism, it appears that one somehow becomes more Christian by not being one, and more righteous for having turned a blind eye to the horrors that inaction, and at times open support, has brought to pass. Equally troubling is the penchant for hating which many of its followers seem to possess. Hate of muslims, hate of this, and hate of that and yet no time to hate and remedy the evils that beset our world. So, much for their following the path laid forth by he who was named Jesus. The contradictions and the results become only starker, and more malignant, the more I learn of the issue. I cannot begin to express the revulsion I feel for such a world view with the evil and misery it spawns.
Excerpted from Gary North's book
"Rapture Fever
Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed" (Published 1993)
(Available here as a free e-book download)
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
Comments (1-40) not displayed.
.
.
.
#41. To: Red Jones (#40)
if you ask me, then I think you're pretty judgmental. You've ascribed many things to me that are from your imagination. Please. I've read enough of your posts to know that you are an advocate sticking it to the rich by having the government steal more of their money. everybody should have sympathy for the poor, it has nothing to do with ideology or politics. Why? For most people being poor is a transitory period in their lives due to being young, being laid off, being sick, etc. Most people do not stay poor. I do have sympathy for those who are poor due to mental or physical disabilities. However, having owned a chain of medical equipment stores and having a wife who is a nurse practitioner in an ER, I know that many, if not most, of the poor are poor because they are either lazy or addicted to something. I do not feel sorry for these people. They are parasites and should either be forced to better themselves or live on the streets and starve. the clique that rules us today is not concerned about the poor. Many decisions are made that harm them. The clique that rules us today is concerned with their own clique of businesses, not with the poor. If you want to blame the existence of this clique that rules us on the poor, then this is your choice. but it is completely illogical to do so. The clique that rules us today doesn't care about anyone but themselves, their friends, their family members and those who fund their campaigns and speaking fees. Blame the poor because of the government? LOL! No where in my post did I do any such thing. I blame the dumb asses who continue to bounce between the two parties, expecting them to solve the problem in their lives. The problems of this world and of yourself are not going to be solved by your ideologies. The bible says that a day will come when god will choose to hear the cries of the very poor people who are oppressed on this earth and as a result god will allow some horrible things to happen. These things will precipitate the end of the era we live in, 2'nd coming of Jesus, judgment of the people on this earth and the building of the kingdom of heaven here on earth which will be the next era. Today poor people in nations like Indonesia, Phillipines, Bengladesh and other nations cannot even get enough money together each day to buy some rice to live on. And over 10 million such people starve to death every year. The powers that be make decisions globally that impact negatively the poor. The poor are excluded from our economy. This will cause tremendous suffering. The one who made us will listen to the people who suffer in that manner. and that will trigger an end to the era that we live in. Well if your invisible sky-god doesn't care enough to save them, then why the hell should I?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
Yeah, they would. There is no figuring them out. They suffer, like I used to suffer, from a peculiar kind of blindness. I used to be the exact same way. Think AKA Stone on steroids. That was me, years ago. I cringe when I think back to what I said in the past. It was bad. I called it programming because that is exactly what it is, and it starts in early childhood. And it's a bitch to see through it. But once one sees through it, and tells the worthless kike "god" to fuck off for forever, it rapidly loses its power. I'm grateful for that. I thought I had the programming beat at one time, but I didn't. .
If you ask me
#42. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#39)
(Edited)
Can you imagine what these same people would say if a government treated its people in this same manner? They'd be screaming "tyranny!" and demanding the country be invaded.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
The second dumbest creature on the face of the earth is the one who cannot recognize its enemies. The most stupid of all is the one who will defend and collaborate with the very enemies that are destroying it and its own kind. -Ben Klassen
#43. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#35)
What exactly does that mean? If you were to inform your mind about that conversation by reading the context of that conversation rather than to let your own imaginations inform your mind, then you would know that what it means exactly is that you can distinguish between the regime that rules and any appearance of jesus on this earth by asking yourself if that regime has sympathy for the poor. If they use a big image of jesus and a voice from the sky that they fabricate as FormerLurker suggested they might and they're using this image to promote a regime that is not sympathetic to the poor, then you know it is fake. If you'd bothered to read the context and think, then you'd know that. I didn't make a plea for higher taxes or socialism, I was just conversing and you accused me of many false things.
The regime that rules us has no sympathy for the poor.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#44. To: farmfriend (#12) (Edited)
Good post. I agree with you and find all the references to "rapture nuts" and all the other names Christians are called very mean spirited. And I stopped reading the article at the point where the author seemed confused about the Book of Revelation being in the New Testament. If he can't even get that right what else did he get wrong?
I was taught the rapture and truthfully I still believe though I have seen and understand the evidence against it. However, I am ambivalent about it. It will either happen or it won't. Doesn't change what I do or how I live. I live that philosophy when fighting the government. I believe that the one world government will happen but that doesn't stop me from fighting it with my last breath. The hard part for me is the idea that I'm possibly working against God's will. I move forward anyway believing that if I am doing something wrong, he'll let me know.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#45. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#41)
you said plainly and clearly that I was advocating high taxes because I casually mentioned something about sympathy to the poor in conversation. You associate sympathy for the poor with government oppression.
Blame the poor because of the government?
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#46. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#41)
you're speaking a lot of nonsense from your imagination. I can't help you with that.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#47. To: Original_Intent (#0)
1988 Rapture postponed: Rapture postponed: Rapture postponed: Any chance of me getting a refund on all those "Left Behind" books I bought?
1981 Rapture postponed:
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
#48. To: Red Jones (#46)
Whatever comrade. From now on whenever you start spouting your "I hate the rich" nonsense and begin whining because they get to keep some of their money, I'm going to remind you of this conversation.
you're speaking a lot of nonsense from your imagination.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
#49. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#48)
From now on whenever you start spouting your "I hate the rich" nonsense and begin whining because they get to keep some of their money, I'm going to remind you of this conversation. would you say it is my imagination that in 2003 the US government came up with a special low rate of 15.0% to tax investment income? This is not from my imagination. This is a tax rate that primarily applies to rich people and it is lower than the 15.8% payroll tax that the poor must pay. It is also much lower than the effective tax rates, of combined payroll and income taxes, that middle income people must pay. It is a special low rate of taxation for the rich. and it is not my imagination. and I do object to it. In the early 2000's taxes were reformed so that corporate income tax rates were effectively cut in half. and as I've shown you for most rich individuals their tax rate was lowered from 39% to 15%. These 2 changes likely surrendered $250 billion a year. It is foolish to cause such debt as it causes debt costs for government to pay in the future and it did not create jobs. you seem to think the rich should be put on a pedestal and taxed especially low as a percent of their income compared to others. and you think this benefits anyone? This is your imagination at work. those ideologies you've been reading (like what is espoused by f a hayik) have got you and you can't even use your brain.
you're speaking a lot of nonsense from your imagination.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
#50. To: Flintlock (#47)
Given that they have long since hit the remainder pile I suspect not.
Any chance of me getting a refund on all those "Left Behind" books I bought?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#51. To: James Deffenbach, farmfriend (#44)
One problem. The Book of Revelations IS considered part of the New Testament.
And I stopped reading the article at the point where the author seemed confused about the Book of Revelation being in the New Testament.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#52. To: Red Jones (#49)
So? It's their money. They took the risks. They should reap the benefits. This is a tax rate that primarily applies to rich people and it is lower than the 15.8% payroll tax that the poor must pay. Bullshit. It applies to anyone and everyone who invests their money, not just the rich. If you think the rich are the only ones who invest their money then you are clueless. It is also much lower than the effective tax rates, of combined payroll and income taxes, that middle income people must pay. So instead of demanding that the Congress lower the taxes of the lower and middle classes your answer is to raise the taxes of the rich. Go figure. It is a special low rate of taxation for the rich. and it is not my imagination. and I do object to it. Of course you do. Someone has to pay for your entitlement programs. In the early 2000's taxes were reformed so that corporate income tax rates were effectively cut in half. Very good. Corporations don't pay taxes. They pass along those costs of taxes to the consumer in the form of higher prices. These 2 changes likely surrendered $250 billion a year. No, $250 billion went back to the people it belonged to in the first place. It is foolish to cause such debt as it causes debt costs for government to pay in the future and it did not create jobs. The answer to government debt doesn't lie in raising taxes. There isn't enough money in the United States to pay the debt of the United States government. The answer is to get rid of all entitlements, get rid of all executive departments not enumerated in the Constitution (FDA, EPA, Education, FCC, etc., etc) and slash the defense budget by 90%. you seem to think the rich should be put on a pedestal and taxed especially low as a percent of their income compared to others. and you think this benefits anyone? This is your imagination at work. those ideologies you've been reading (like what is espoused by f a hayik) have got you and you can't even use your brain. I doubt very seriously if you've ever read a single word Hayek ever wrote. As for putting "the rich" on a pedestal, I do not put them on a pedestal at all, nor do I believe they should be taxed less. However, unlike you, I also do not believe they should be taxed more just because they are rich.
would you say it is my imagination that in 2003 the US government came up with a special low rate of 15.0% to tax investment income?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
#53. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach (#51)
Yes Revelation is the last book in the Bible and a part of the new testament. *** The author, named John, has traditionally been identified with John the Apostle, to whom the Gospel of John is also attributed. According to the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, modern scholars are divided between the apostolic view and several alternative hypotheses which have been put forth in the last hundred years or so.[3] Historical-critical scholars, in particular, conclude that the author did not also write the Gospel of John.[4][5] Most scholars think that Revelation was written near the end of the 1st century.One problem. The Book of Revelations IS considered part of the New Testament.
The Book of the Revelation to John, often referred to as the Book of Revelation or simply Revelation, is the last in the collection of documents which constitute the New Testament (the second of the two major divisions of the Bible). It is also known as the Apocalypse of John or simply the Apocalypse. These titles come from Koine Greek apokalupsis, meaning "unveiling" or "revelation", which is the first word of the book. The word "apocalypse" is also used for other works of a similar nature, and the genre is known as apocalyptic literature. Such literature is "marked by distinctive literary features, particularly prediction of future events and accounts of visionary experiences or journeys to heaven, often involving vivid symbolism."[1] The Book of Revelation is the only apocalyptic document in the New Testament canon, though there are short apocalyptic passages in various places in the Gospels and the Epistles.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
#54. To: Original_Intent (#51)
That's what I was saying. The author didn't seem to understand that little point. He seems to be in disagreement with much of the Bible. But that's between him and God. I just don't like all the hateful descriptions of people who believe what the Bible clearly teaches.
One problem. The Book of Revelations IS considered part of the New Testament.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#55. To: farmfriend (#53)
That was my point. How could it not be a "part of the new testament" when it is the last book in the new testament? I've been knowing that for a long time.
Yes Revelation is the last book in the Bible and a part of the new testament.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#56. To: farmfriend, James Deffenbach (#53)
I might also point out that the author of the piece, which I did search for and choose with some care, holds not 1 but 2 Master's Degrees in Theology. So, agree, or disagree, look or not look, that is an individual choice. However, someone with eyes closed is in no danger of seeing.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#57. To: James Deffenbach (#55)
If I might delicately point out there appears, to my reading, no confusion on the part of the author as to where the Book of Revelation is located.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#58. To: Original_Intent (#57)
Not saying I couldn't have misunderstood him--it's possible--but it seemed to me he was saying that the book of Revelation was not a part of the New Testament. At any rate, I don't agree with a lot of what he says.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#59. To: All (#0)
Errata: A mistake on my part. There were several linked references in the following two paragraphs of the article which I inadvertently left out: "There are all sorts of problems with these interpretations. First of all, the New Testament says nothing about a "pretribulational rapture." To see how bankrupt that position is, read my offering on the subject here. The evidence for a "pre-trib" rapture is not just weak, it is non-existent. Regarding the key verse of Daniel 9:27, see my refutation of the dispensationalist position here. Read those, especially if you are a dispensationalist who already presupposes that I’m wrong. Once you begin thinking of the implications involved, you begin to see why this doctrine is so dangerous to everybody. Dispensationalists seem to have a preoccupation with war. In fact, right now, dispensationalist mega-church pastor John Hagee is preaching that a war with Iran is not only the right thing to do, but is prophetically inevitable. Apparently, Bible prophecy demands a showdown with Iran. You see, if you aren’t on the side of war, then you aren’t on the side of God. Talk of peace now becomes irrelevant. It’s God’s will that we be militarists. In fairness, not all dispensationalists are militarists. Our own Laurence Vance is an example. But they are in a definite minority. The prevailing worldview of dispensationalism glorifies war, militarism, and the State." His blog is located HERE
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#60. To: James Deffenbach (#58)
I presumed as much, and is one of the reasons I have trod lightly. While I disagree with the dispensationalist world view I am trying to be provocative, not offensive.
At any rate, I don't agree with a lot of what he says.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#61. To: Original_Intent (#56)
Yeah, the Bible talks about people like that. Second Timothy, chapter 3, verse 7: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And Romans, chapter 1, verse 22 says: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
I might also point out that the author of the piece, which I did search for and choose with some care, holds not 1 but 2 Master's Degrees in Theology.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#62. To: James Deffenbach (#61)
All I would suggest is to read the reference links that I posted in the errata immediately prior to my last post to you.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#63. To: James Deffenbach (#61)
I might also suggest that this blade has two edges. For those who would take disrelated verses and then impute their own meaning upon plainly written words is the same kind of offense for which the Roman Church has been criticized.
Yeah, the Bible talks about people like that. Second Timothy, chapter 3, verse 7: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And Romans, chapter 1, verse 22 says: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#64. To: Original_Intent (#2)
If you want to die, go ahead. But if not, don't just sit around waiting for the end of the world. How about YOU TRY TO FIX THE DAMN PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD, INSTEAD OF HOPING FOR GOD TO END IT ALL!! I would call you Nietzsche Wannabes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NietzscheWannabe Except Nietzsche Wannabes are doing something, moving towards a direction, even if is the end of all things, while you just sit around and wait for something to happen. You call people, such as those in the tea party, sheep, while it is really YOU that is "baaing" and complaining all the time, and doing nothing else to try toe fix the world. You all disgust me.
#65. To: PaulCJ (#64)
We can't just pick up a sword and go around hacking on pagans. Or can we?? Excerpt from the letter of St. Bernard to the Templars: 'The knights of Christ can fight the battles of their Lord with complete tranquility of conscience, fearing neither sin if they kill the enemy, nor the danger of being killed themselves. For to inflict death or to suffer death for Christ has nothing criminal about it, but rather brings an abundant claim to glory. By the first he gives glory to Christ, by the latter, he gains Christ Himself. The Lord, without a doubt, gladly accepts the death of the enemy as punishment; and yet more gladly gives Himself to the fallen knight as consolation. The knight of Christ may strike with confidence and die yet more confidently, for he serves Christ when he kills, and serves himself when he dies. Nor does he bear the sword in vain, for he is God’s minister to punish the evildoers and to exalt the good. When he kills an evildoer, he is not a murderer, but, if I may so put it, a killer of evil. It is necessary to see him as both the avenger at the service of Christ and the protector of the Christian people. Should he be killed himself, however, we know that he has not perished but has achieved eternal glory. Therefore, the death he inflicts is to Christ’s profit, and the death he receives is for his own gain. The Christian rejoices in the death of the pagan because Christ is glorified; while the death of the Christian gives the King occasion to show his liberality by rewarding the deserving knight. In the first case, the just man shall rejoice when he sees the punishment of the evil man. And in the latter, he will say, “Truly there is a reward for the just. Truly it is God who judges the earth." Certainly pagans should not be killed if there is any other way to prevent them from oppressing and persecuting the faithful. But it is much better to kill them than to have the just ones forever under the yoke of the wicked, and bending their knees to the iniquity of the pagans.' ~St. Bernard, De Laude Novae Milititae, Migne, P.L. vol. 182, col. 924
__________________________________________________________
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#66. To: PaulCJ (#64)
I'm with you that is exactly my complaint about the dispensationalists i.e., what I call Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter". Completely wrong from my point of view. It is my belief that God expects of us to do something about evils in our world. However, the dispensationalists view that as pointless, because as they have been predicting for the last 200 years the world is going to end last week and if you haven't mouthed the right words it's "coitans".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#67. To: Original_Intent (#66)
I never heard any say the world is going to end "last week." No Christian that I know tries to predict God's timing because they know it is in his hands.
However, the dispensationalists view that as pointless, because as they have been predicting for the last 200 years the world is going to end last week
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#68. To: James Deffenbach (#67)
Rhetorical hyperbole on my part. I just didn't use an /Sarcasm assuming it was clear from context. However, look at the timeline included at the bottom of the article. As well I know Hal Lindsay gave a prediction. However, that was really not my point - it is the implicit presumption that the "End Times" rapture is going to occur "any moment now". Take a look at the "Rapture Ready" Forum. Between war mongering and wishing for hundreds of millions of dead there is the assumption that not only are they among the righteous but that that they are going to be taken home to the mother ship* heaven any time now.
*Sorry, couldn't resist. Please excuse my warped sense of humor.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#69. To: FormerLurker (#11)
Geeeez - And I thought Cynicom was a cynic.
little spheres telling them to "walk into the light". Thing is, those little spheres generating the "light" could well transport them to an alien mothership, to be herded and kept as food for an intersteller voyage.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#70. To: Original_Intent (#68)
The fact is that it CAN happen any time. But as I said before, the timing is in God's hands and he knows when it will be. I don't and I don't claim to. I have an idea when I think it might be but not a specific date per se.
it is the implicit presumption that the "End Times" rapture is going to occur "any moment now".
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#71. To: Original_Intent (#0)
In the King James Bible, the word "temple" is not even in Daniel 9:27 or Matthew 24:15. Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to other scriptures like Daniel 11:36 listed here: http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm. "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard- of things against the God of gods." At 2 Thessalonians 2:4, these are the Greek words for the numerical references in the phrase "so 5620 that he 846 as 5613 God 2316 sitteth 2523 in 1519 the temple 3485 of God 2316, shewing 584 himself 1438 that 3754 he is 2076 God 2316": hoste autos hos theos kathizo eis naos theos apodeiknymi heautou hoti esti theos. By studying the definitions given for those words, the phrase could be interpreted as a person or kingdom established/appointed as if they/it are the image of God. This link explains that Ancient Israel's biblical-agricultural calendar was based upon seven year cycles. However, I think there are 11 days difference between their lunar calendar and the solar calendar. Anyway, the seventh years of their calendar cycles are Sabbath years. 2009-2010 is a Sabbath year. Here is a link to a Google video that is almost an hour long but, after the first 20 minutes or so, the narrator starts mentioning calculations and the seventh year as it pertains to their interpretations of scriptures. He says that the Messiah is to come after the seventh year: Israeli War Hizbullah Lebanon Iran Gaza The Zero Hour israel hidabroot. This is another video at YouTube that suggests the year 2012 is when that is expected: end of days year 2012 in bible codes. End of days can be interpreted as latter days. Ex: Deuteronomy 4:29-32.
Another key text is Daniel 9:27. It is from this verse alone that we get the idea of a "seven-year tribulation" during the end times. But the New Testament says nothing about a seven-year tribulation. The book of Revelation refers to a 3.5–year period – five different times. They are most likely referring to the same time period. Dispensationalists believe by prophetic necessity a number of things. First, they assume that the world must get worse in just about all ways. Second, they assume that Daniel 9:27 calls for the rebuilding of a Third Jewish Temple at the site of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore, prophetic necessity demands that the current Islamic al-Aqsa mosque must be torn down to build this new Jewish Temple. Halfway through the tribulation period, the antichrist will come and exalt himself in the new Jewish Temple, stop sacrifices in the Temple, break a peace treaty he had earlier made with Israel, and proclaim himself to be God. They get all this from cutting and pasting Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 together and then associating those passages with everything that will be going on in Revelation 4–19.
-------
"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#72. To: GreyLmist (#71)
What you say, Dude!
the God of gods." At 2 Thessalonians 2:4, these are the Greek words for the numerical references in the phrase "so 5620 that he 846 as 5613 God 2316 sitteth 2523 in 1519 the temple 3485 of God 2316, shewing 584 himself 1438 that 3754 he is 2076 God 2316": hoste autos hos theos kathizo eis naos theos apodeiknymi heautou hoti esti theos. By studying the definitions given for those words, the phrase could be interpreted as a person or kingdom established/appointed as if they/it are the image of God.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#73. To: James Deffenbach (#44)
The author is mistaken. The proper term is Rapture Monkey , not rapture nut.
I agree with you and find all the references to "rapture nuts" and all the other names Christians are called very mean spirited.
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
#74. To: GreyLmist (#71)
While by no means do I make pretensions to being a theologian something I have observed before is that many prophetic traditions have this time as either a culmination or a time of great flux and change. The Hopi, Zuni, and Lakotah/Nakotah prophecies (although short lived as someone killed it, the White Buffalo was born, as well is the Mayan Calenda, along with the Bible and even Nicolai Nostradamus all pointing at this time as one which will see a change in our civilization again shifting back toward the spiritual. As well, on a hopeful note, Nostradamus prediction was for a thousand years of peace following the great turmoil we are now in the midst of. And contrary to any other speculations I would observe that Nostradamus was a devout Christian and has an amazing record of accuracy. Although in many cases he was so cryptic, for fear of the inquisition, that he coded everything.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#75. To: Original_Intent (#1)
well, this thread was sure an interesting read. i don't get into debate about this topic or the bible for that matter. it's an exercise in futility, imo. it amazes me how many different ways people can and do interpret each and every verse's meaning though.
#76. To: christine (#75)
Ordinarily I also avoid religious debates, and I make no scholarly claims in the area. However, the toxicity of Christian Zionism, and it's twisted perversion of the Scriptures have to be confronted in one fashion or another for the protection of all. The fatalistic, and even ghoulish, views and actions, or inactions, of the dispensationalists are promoting much evil in our world. Despite their pretensions to Christianity their fruit has a rather devilish odor.
well, this thread was sure an interesting read. i don't get into debate about this topic or the bible for that matter. it's an exercise in futility, imo. it amazes me how many different ways people can and do interpret each and every verse's meaning though.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#77. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, farmfriend (#51) (Edited)
Original_Intent: One problem. The Book of Revelations IS considered part of the New Testament. I didn't get the impression that the author was confused about that. It's my opinion that there is no "Battle of Armageddon" in the Book of Revelation. Refs: Revelation 16:16, Revelation 19:11-21. There is a gathering for battle by the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies but the beast and the false prohet are captured and thrown into the fiery lake of brimstone, a word which has the conotation of purifying. The others there are "slain" by the sword of the Faithful and True rider on the white horse, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords -- by the sword of His mouth, symbolic of Truth. The word "slain" has the conotations of being destroyed by Truth, abolished by Truth, and deprived of spiritual life by Truth. Ark means gathering place in Hebrew. Armageddon can mean "place of crowds" - Megiddown. The UN, for example, is a gathering place of "kings" and it has crowds. James Deffenbach: And I stopped reading the article at the point where the author seemed confused about the Book of Revelation being in the New Testament.
-------
"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#78. To: Original_Intent (#66)
Completely wrong from my point of view. I "Christian Fatalists" is a good enough term as any for the groups we are talking about.
I'm with you that is exactly my complaint about the dispensationalists i.e., what I call Christian Fatalism i.e., "it just doesn't matter".
#79. To: GreyLmist (#77)
Thank you I was beginning to think I was alone in what I see as the import of our times. Not a world ending but the end of one age and the rebirth of a more spiritual world. Time will tell, but I think, and pray, that the minions of the dark will be turned back and that the end will be the beginning. What I pray for is a universal salvation, and a resurrection of a more spiritual society and culture, and ultimately even redemption of those who would have denied it to us, but only after a good long penance with suitable amends. In short I pray for the rise of a true civilization not a barbarism with deadly toys.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#80. To: GreyLmist, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, (#77)
Now there is something to ponder.
The UN, for example, is a gathering place of "kings" and it has crowds.
"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.
.
.
.
Comments (81 - 100) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest