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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Support the Troops?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/10/07/support-the-troops/
Published: Oct 8, 2010
Author: Justin Raimondo
Post Date: 2010-10-08 06:20:50 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 854
Comments: 81

No way!

We often hear, from antiwar activists as well as pious politicians and every sort of commentator, that we should all "support the troops." No matter what one thinks of the particular war being fought, this kind of boilerplate is invariably appended: "But of course," we are told, "everyone supports the troops." We honor them for their service. We pat them on the back and say: "Good job!"

In this context, consider the details of the most recent atrocity coming out of Afghanistan, the activities of the "Thrill Kill platoon," which is accused of murdering Afghan civilians and keeping body parts as trophies. The alleged mastermind of the thrill-killers, Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs, is also under investigation by military authorities on suspicion of carrying out similar murders in Iraq. The Gibbs "kill team" is suspected of slaughtering at least seven Afghan civilians, and quite possibly more, in the most heinous manner imaginable. Gibbs and four others were arrested in June, and seven others are being held.

These twelve apostles of mayhem — assigned to the 2nd Stryker Brigade, and stationed at Forward Operating Base Ramrod, along the border with Pakistan — randomly chose unarmed Afghan civilians to murder. Then they shot them, or blew them up with grenades, mutilating the victims. Gibbs, the alleged ringleader, made necklaces out of the body parts. They covered up their killing spree by placing weapons near the corpses, and the incidents went down in the records as gun battles with "insurgents."

Gibbs reportedly has a tattoo on his left calf which is a pictorial record of his crime spree: it consists of two crossed pistols encircled by six skulls. According to news reports, the red skulls indicate murders carried out in Iraq, and the blue skulls represent Afghan kills.

Knowledge of the killings was widely shared in the camp, and it’s hard to imagine higher-ups were unaware of what was going on. But there was indeed one apparently unwilling participant, Adam Winfield, who desperately tried to reach out to his parents, to whom he confessed the murders.

The "honor the troops" brigade will tell us this is just another case of a few bad apples: this latest incident is no reason to condemn the entire US military – is it?

Well, quite frankly, it is, because, as Winfield pointed out to his parents in a February 14 Facebook posting: "Pretty much the whole platoon knows about it. It’s okay with all of them pretty much. Except me…. I want to do something about it [but] the only problem is I don’t feel safe here telling anyone." "I talked to someone," Winfield continued, "and they told me this stuff happens all the time and that when we get back there is always someone that spills the beans so it normally works its way out."

Winfield’s father asked, "No one else thought it was wrong?" Winfield’s reply:

"No, everyone just wants to kill people at any cost, they don’t care, the Army is full of a bunch of scumbags, I realized."

Winfield resigned his position as the platoon’s team leader because "I cannot be a leader in a platoon that allows this to happen." He went on to make a key point:

"There are no more good men left here…. I started to think whether I should quit and just give up because it’s stupid to get smoked in Afghanistan. The Army really let me down when I thought I would come out here to do good, maybe make some change in this country…. I find out that it’s all a lie."

None of this would have come out if not for an investigation into alleged drug use by soldiers. Investigators uncovered widespread and rampant drug use, including hashish, opium, and anti-depressants which are issued by the military: in the course of their investigation, one of the thrill-killers – apparently under the influence at the time – spilled the beans. In addition, Winfield’s parents made repeated calls to military authorities immediately upon learning of this horror, but before I get to any of that I want to underscore Winfield’s words:

"There are no more good men left here."

Of course there aren’t. What kind of person joins the military at this particular point in time – a point when the US is engaged in endless wars of aggression, and stories of atrocities committed by "our" soldiers are coming out all the time? For the most part, precisely the kind of person who would delight in the orgy of bloodlust conducted by the "thrill kill platoon." The military has become an outlet for the sociopaths in our midst.

Yes, I know, with the recession people will be joining for economic reasons: after all, where else can they find a job?

Economic considerations no doubt play a large part in the decision to go into the military, but other factors also play a part in making this choice: alongside economic necessity, in this instance, is the generalized knowledge that atrocities are being committed over there. Winfield says the whole platoon knew about what was going on with the "thrill killers," and the same can be said about the entire country when it comes to atrocities being committed in Iraq and Afghanistan by US troops, and I don’t just mean Abu Ghraib. This grisly record is common knowledge, and, in deciding to join up, the prospective US soldier is consciously choosing to ignore or downplay the moral aspects of being asked to commit atrocities: it’s much more important to him (or her) to make a living.

This is the definition of a moral monster.

There was a time, not so long ago, when the decision to seek a career in the military did not involve becoming such a monster. That time has long since passed. To put on an American uniform today is to become complicit in a criminal enterprise, and this characterization is not by any means limited to the thrill-killer platoon but to the entire killing machine deployed to carry out Washington’s grand design.

When Winfield’s parents contacted US military authorities they were told nothing could be done unless Winfield came forward in Afghanistan – where his life was at risk. The others suspected him of being "soft," and threats had already come in from the thrill-killers that if he squealed his life was worth nothing: the ringleader waved the finger of a dead Afghan in his face to illustrate the point. The day he learned of the situation his son was in – Valentine’s Day, a Sunday — Winfield’s father left message on the Army Inspector General’s hotline, the Army’s criminal investigations division, and the office of Sen. Bill Nelson, Democrat of Florida.

The response was nil. A few days later, Private Winfield was forced by his sergeant to engage in yet another random murder: Winfield says he aimed high and missed, but the military is still charging him in the killing.

The Army knew what was going on. As that officer said to Winfield, this sort of thing goes on all the time. It’s part of our "footprint," even in areas where we aren’t engaged in military operations. Where US military bases exist, murders and rapes committed by US military personnel are common: the bases themselves are ringed with bars, houses of prostitution, and other less-than-savory establishments, catering to the thuggish tastes and habits of our centurions as they guard the perimeters of the American empire. These bases are running sores on the faces of our client states and protectorates, and, as in Japan, immensely resented ambassadors of ill will.

So what can we do about it? Short of getting the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention the rest of the world, the antiwar movement can engage in an aggressive campaign of counter-recruitment. This latest atrocity, which has been downplayed by the US media, should be publicized extensively, in tandem with a focused effort to persuade young people not to join up. If the media is running "public service announcements" and ads promoting military service, we should run counter-ads – and take full advantage of the controversy when the networks refuse to run them.

The US military is a criminal enterprise, just as the ruling elite in this country is the equivalent of a crime syndicate: and they are getting away with murder. One day, the people’s justice will be visited on them. Let’s hope that rough justice doesn’t unfairly impact us all.

The US is exporting its sociopaths overseas, in hopes that the havoc such people usually wreak can be put to some "good" use, but such callousness will soon blow back in our faces when Johnnie-the-thug comes marching home. We’ve already seen a spate of vicious murders committed by just-released veterans of the Iraq and Afghan wars: mental illness is rife among these veterans, and a disproportionately large segment is turning violent. More worrisome, gang members are reportedly joining in droves, and being accepted because the military is desperate to make its recruiting quota. They are boasting that when they come back, trained to kill by professionals, they’ll be in good shape to continue their criminal activities on the home front.

It will be a harsh justice indeed as these deranged killers visit the same sort of destruction on us as they inflicted on their innocent victims overseas.

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#41. To: christine (#34)

i still make a distinction between those who were drafted and those who enlist today

I respect your opinion.

Perhaps personally living thru three major wars has warped my sensibilities.

In defense, all I can say is, to me, experience says regardless of how we got there, it has been those of the lowest social order that have done the bleeding and dying.

Even this government publishes statistics for present and past wars, showing who paid the price. Those figures are very sobering, factual and enlightening to anyone with an open mind.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-10-08   13:09:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Original_Intent (#37)

Butler was only 59 when he left us...

Lod  posted on  2010-10-08   13:14:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Cynicom (#36)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2010-10-08   13:25:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Lod (#42) (Edited)

Butler was only 59 when he left us...

I have seen people float the suspicion that, like Fed opponent Congressman Louis T. McFadden, he was whacked, because of the ongoing build up to U.S. involvement in WWII which he would no doubt have opposed. There is little doubt that the elites regarded him as a mortal enemy as he scuttled one serious attempt to take over the U.S. Government. (See Jules Archer's "The Plot To Seize The White House".) This very real and very true event has been completely blacked out of our Government School History Books - that itself says something about who controls the government. You won't find any mention of McFadden either.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   13:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: ghostdogtxn, Cynicom (#43)

Simply raising your voice in opposition is an action. It is an action that at least two thirds of our fellow citizens lack the wit or courage to do.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   13:35:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Cynicom (#22)

And they are employed by whom???

I didn't hire them, nor did I agree to any of them being hired.

I voted for Ron Paul, and he promised to bring them all home.

So don't try blaming me for what goes on.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-10-08   13:38:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Original_Intent (#44)

In June 1940, Butler checked himself into the hospital after becoming sick a few weeks earlier. His doctor described his illness as an incurable condition of the upper gastro-intestinal tract that was probably cancer. His family remained by his side, even bringing his new car so he could see it from the window. He never had a chance to drive it. On June 21, 1940, Smedley Butler died in the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia.

Sounds shaky enough to me.

Lod  posted on  2010-10-08   13:39:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Jethro Tull (#23)

Can anyone tell me why a kid with all the availability of today's information flow, would choose to 'liberate Afghanistan' at the behest of this government? IMVHO there is no sane answer.

Many are quite brainwashed by indoctrination and/or brain damaged by vaccines, fluoride, and various neurotoxins added to food.

Add our economic despair, with promises of college, money, and the "honor" of "fighting terrorists", combined with the adoration women have for men in uniform these days, well, how can they NOT see it as a promising opportunity?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-10-08   13:42:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Lod (#47)

Yes, there is room for question marks.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   13:43:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: ghostdogtxn (#43)

If you live in this country you are responsible.

Exactly.

Travesty????

We have currently a president that is Harvard educated, received a Nobel Peace Prize, he sends the dregs of American society to the ME to kill people, they are called thugs and worse, yet the President has clean hands. How is that possible?

We only assess blame and fault downward, not upward???? That is a small indicator of class bias.

The thugs come home, commit suicide by the numbers, and what of the professional military, ah yes, pay raise, medals and lots of glory.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-10-08   13:50:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Original_Intent, Lod (#47)

In June 1940, Butler checked himself into the hospital after becoming sick a few weeks earlier. His doctor described his illness as an incurable condition of the upper gastro-intestinal tract that was probably cancer.

He should have gotten a 2nd opinion pronto. You'd think he'd be a bit suspicious of government doctors with what he obviously knew about the "system".

It is extremely odd that all of a sudden he'd "feel sick", and supposedly die of an "incurable gastro-intestinal tract" disorder assumed to be cancer.

If it were true, he would have been sick for quite awhile prior to succumbing to the illness.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-10-08   13:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: FormerLurker (#51)

Yes, the symptoms could just as easily fit some form of poisoning.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   14:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Cynicom (#50)

We have currently a president that is Harvard educated, received a Nobel Peace Prize, he sends the dregs of American society to the ME to kill people, they are called thugs and worse, yet the President has clean hands. How is that possible?

Let's add he hasn't proven himself to be an American citizen and on that basis alone isn't fit for office. Had NAFTA not conveniently come along, the draft would have to be reinstated, and the kids would then get real wise to global affairs, real quick.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-10-08   14:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Original_Intent (#40)

It will change only when enough people say ENOUGH! That is why the media presents so little of the truth, because those running the death machine fear what would happen if the reality sunk into enough of the American Public to reach a critical mass.

...and, don't we know, that's why the Internet is feared and hated by so many who have a devious agenda.

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." lod

Bub  posted on  2010-10-08   14:59:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Cynicom (#39)

Walking free and clear of any responsibility is difficult for me.

I didn't see any of that in Enderby's comment; we all are keyboard kommandos only, but we're exhibiting responsibility by posting views that we hope will be educative, not adversarial.

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." lod

Bub  posted on  2010-10-08   15:05:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Bub, Jethro Tull, christine, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, CadetD, Eric Stratton, all (#54)

It will change only when enough people say ENOUGH! That is why the media presents so little of the truth, because those running the death machine fear what would happen if the reality sunk into enough of the American Public to reach a critical mass.

...and, don't we know, that's why the Internet is feared and hated by so many who have a devious agenda.

Exactly. Despite all the disinformation and propaganda flooding onto the 'net it is an avenue around the information blockade. And a little truth is a powerful thing. A lot of truth is world changing. And that change is what the elite Banksters and Psychiatrists fear - it causes their collars to tighten up. The greater the awareness among the masses of the common people the more they lose. We are now on the cusp. The changes over the next few months are going to be staggering. I don't know where it will fall out, but I think that the prospect of losing their control is going to force them to try and act. The situation is accelerating and something is going to come to pass soon, and it isn't going to be pretty. We have to be ready to again summon the strength that made a nation free.

We are in for a very rough ride.

I am looking for the greatest chaos to center in and around the Virginia area.

Stand Tall America your truest test has arrived.

SIC TEMPER TYRANNIS!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   15:13:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Cynicom (#22)

Of course not every soldier is a thug, but many of them apparently are.

And they are employed by whom???

The initial threat is a lie; our troops are not protecting our freedoms. No one on this thread is avoiding condemnation of the troops' employers; rather, the Government is the usual target, here. We are aghast at rogue elements in our military. (The same military that does a fly-over at the Super Bowl...why? Is there a sports-connection?) For all that matter, though, we are aghast at the U.S. waging a war against two non-threatening countries. I, too, was a U.S.Army grunt; I observed the caste and class system....

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." lod

Bub  posted on  2010-10-08   15:32:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Original_Intent (#56)

I am looking for the greatest chaos to center in and around the Virginia area.

why?

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2010-10-08   16:17:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Bub (#57)

I, too, was a U.S.Army grunt; I observed the caste and class system....

I was never an Army grunt but I saw many of them taken away in chains and irons for refusing to fight.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-10-08   16:23:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Bub (#55)

Walking free and clear of any responsibility is difficult for me.

I didn't see any of that in Enderby's comment;

Below by Enderby.

" Who's "WE?" I don't recall hiring anyone, nor training anyone to kill.

You may say that the gummint was my agent when it did so. But I didn't hire them, either.

Sorry, but I accept responsibility only in proportion to the amount of control I have. Which, in this case, is zero. "

Cynicom  posted on  2010-10-08   16:28:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#58) (Edited)

I am looking for the greatest chaos to center in and around the Virginia area.

why?

Uncertain. In part high population density, proximity to Corexit polluted waters, dependence on government jobs, and a tradition of liberty. It was Virginia that gave us some of our most fiery proponents of individual libery - Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and Robert E. Lee.

Oh, and note my closing line: "Sic Temper Tyrannis" - "Thus Ever to Tyrants" - the State Motto of Virginia.

That and just my undefinable "sense" of matters. Call it what you will, clairvoyance, precognition, or intuition I nevertheless seem to be feeling a sense in that direction.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   16:31:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Original_Intent (#61)

That and just my undefinable "sense" of matters. Call it what you will, clairvoyance, precognition, or intuition I nevertheless seem to be feeling a sense in that direction.

I tend to agree.

Government is there, military hierarchy is there and enough military people to make for a volatile mixture.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-10-08   16:33:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Original_Intent (#40) (Edited)

The reality is that the good kids get swamped by the psychopaths and sociopaths and are intimidated into silence by NonComs and Officers who are themselves at least sociopaths or too afraid to rock the boat lest they not get that next promotion - or the next bullet.

in vietnam the grunts revolted,due in large part to the blacks and pot.the blacks knowingly were going to be used as garbage and because they had little else going,ended up enlisting,or being unlucky and drafted.but there was good pot in vietnam,coupled with the whites,this triangle built the base for revolt.during the campaign you could ask a black spec 4 who robert mcnammara was and you got deer eyes in headlights.you ask a white spec 4 (if he was a stoner),he could tell you all about mcnammara and westmoreland lies.this building revolt gained even more traction as word spread that gung-ho officers were being 'fragged'. now who knows what goes thru a kids mind as bullets are flying and everything they have been taught points that m-16 at anything and everything not associated with GI.if anyone of 'us' were there, would one of 'us' consider fragging a gung-ho moron ordering the platoon into certain combat? but then i guess 'moron' shows my thoughts.the ones that were 'in country'back then,just like the ones in iraq and afghanistan today,need some serious support.we can all do the right thing by accepting what 'we' have wrought.one example might be to find the nearest zionist and dissassemble him.

paddlefeet  posted on  2010-10-08   16:43:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Original_Intent (#61)

I agree; I just wanted to see what your reasoning was. The fact that Virginia is where the cross was planted 400 years ago, has a lot to do with my take on it. I believe Satan hates Virginia.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2010-10-08   16:49:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Original_Intent (#56)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-10-08   17:03:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Original_Intent (#56)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-10-08   17:04:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: paddlefeet (#63)

Fragging was nothing new to 'nam - just more commonly practiced. I still remember my father's comment about his WWII Platoon going through 3 Platoon Leaders who were all gung-ho to get everybody killed for their own glory. He did not approve of the practice and did not participate, and as a Scout Sniper was gone with his squad behind Japanese lines most of the time, but he was aware of the practice. The last Platoon Leader was smart enough to tell the Platoon Sergeant "you have the experience Sarge. I'll follow your lead until I learn enough to take over."

we can all do the right thing by accepting what 'we' have wrought.one example might be to find the nearest zionist and dissassemble him.

A capital idea!

To me "Support The Troops" means "Bring them home Alive" - NOW.

Unfortunately the attitude in government now is very Kissingerian: "In Haig's presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as 'dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy'."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   17:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#64)

I agree; I just wanted to see what your reasoning was. The fact that Virginia is where the cross was planted 400 years ago, has a lot to do with my take on it. I believe Satan hates Virginia.

Most would-be tyrants hate Virginia - it is like a Cross to a Vampire.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   17:09:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Original_Intent (#68)

"...The State of Virginia is now permanently branded as the FCI State

F for freemasonry,
I for Israel,
C for Communism.

Eustace Mullins
June 13, 2006"

www.rense.com/general72/contract.htm

All the makings of the battle of armageddon.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2010-10-08   17:23:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Original_Intent (#67)

Fragging was nothing new to 'nam

fragging is common thru out history,what else is common,the blatent lies and the inept leadership pulling strings for all things patriotic, imo robert mcnammara was a snake along with westmoreland..these heros of america caused more deaths than religion.......well,almost.

paddlefeet  posted on  2010-10-08   18:19:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Original_Intent (#67)

that is very interesting your father's experience in WW2 where he was a sniper / scout. a few years ago an old man who served in the Korea war told me how he killed his commanding officer in korea. he said it was just the 2 of them there. The new officer was admonishing him to get out of his foxhole and go into the woods and get killed. He told the officer it was better to just sit and wait. The officer was admonishing. He raised his gun and shot him clean thru. later he told people the chinese got him. Nobody cared.

that fellow I spoke of survived a lot of combat.

Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-10-08   18:40:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Red Jones, 4 (#71)

He raised his gun and shot him clean thru. later he told people the chinese got him. Nobody cared.

Of course not.

They both were just animals to be slaughtered.

No matter who slaughtered them.

Lod  posted on  2010-10-08   18:51:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: All (#72)

paraphrasing Heinz Kissinger.

Lod  posted on  2010-10-08   19:25:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Red Jones (#71)

that fellow I spoke of survived a lot of combat.

For most common soldiers in combat, contrary to Hollywood Propaganda, that is the primary objective - to survive combat. The bravery evidenced in winning medals is usually nothing more than the attempt to stay alive and keep one's squad mates alive. My old man came home with a chest full of medals, but thing he was happiest about was coming home, alive, and mostly intact.

My Grandfather was a very fortunate man. He sent 5 sons off to WWII and got 5 sons back. Some a little worse for wear but alive and none severely disabled - although I had one uncle, wounded at Iwo Jima, who was given 100% disability. Not that he was 100% disabled, but I guess it was a consolation prize for having nearly died on the beach at Iwo Jima. He was lucky - he was with the third assault wave, the first was almost completely wiped out, 85% of the second wave, and about 65% of the third wave.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-08   20:51:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Original_Intent (#74)

Flying the Pacific at nite, Iwo was always a welcome sight. One could not help but wonder at the horrible deaths of man that visited that place.

It was a foretaste of what was to come had we invaded Japan.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-10-08   21:12:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, Original_Intent (#64)

interesting perspective...

christine  posted on  2010-10-08   22:18:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Red Jones (#71)

that is very interesting your father's experience in WW2 where he was a sniper / scout. a few years ago an old man who served in the Korea war told me how he killed his commanding officer in korea. he said it was just the 2 of them there. The new officer was admonishing him to get out of his foxhole and go into the woods and get killed. He told the officer it was better to just sit and wait. The officer was admonishing. He raised his gun and shot him clean thru.

self defense, imo. it was kill or be killed.

christine  posted on  2010-10-08   22:22:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: christine (#77)

unfortunately.

the part of the war he was in was when chinese were attacking in overwhelming force where US troops were out-numbered. he survived a lot of combat. somehow he made it to vietnam where the lower part of his leg was blown off. and that exited him from the army. the hard fighting will contribute sometimes to problems in civilian life, and in his case that happened as well. he has pictures of mccarthur walking & such that he took.

he also happened to be ethnic mexican, but born here.

Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-10-08   23:05:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Original_Intent (#74)

he was with the third assault wave, the first was almost completely wiped out, 85% of the second wave, and about 65% of the third wave.

that is incredible.

Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Red Jones  posted on  2010-10-08   23:09:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Cynicom (#75)

Flying the Pacific at nite, Iwo was always a welcome sight. One could not help but wonder at the horrible deaths of man that visited that place.

It was a foretaste of what was to come had we invaded Japan.

My apologies, I missed your comment earlier. Yes, Iwo Jima during the Marine assault was not a place conducive to good health. It was a fluke that my uncle survived. He came off the LC running up the beach leading his Platoon, he was a Sergeant, screaming his War Cry he took a .50 cal through his open mouth which exited out of the fleshy part of the back of his neck. It missed his spine by about an inch. He ended up living well into his 80's passing on about 1981 (he was my dad's oldest brother and was already in his early 40's at Iwo Jima).

For my father Pelilau was the worst. The Japanese were dug into caves and they had to dig them out. Most would not surrender and were "cooked" with flame throwers. The history books call it the "Killing Grounds". He was with the Marine Expeditionary force on Okinawa, waiting to invade the Japanese mainland on Honshu, when the bomb was dropped and the war ended.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-09   0:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Red Jones (#79)

he was with the third assault wave, the first was almost completely wiped out, 85% of the second wave, and about 65% of the third wave.

that is incredible.

Iwo Jima was not a picnic. The history books acknowledge it to have been the hardest of the islands in the South Pacific to take. The Japanese were well dug in and had ample supplies.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-10-09   0:15:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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