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Title: Commentary: Good news for corporations, bad news for voters
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Published: Oct 20, 2010
Author: http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeti
Post Date: 2010-10-20 15:50:33 by tom007
Keywords: None
Views: 500
Comments: 54
Commentary: Good news for corporations, bad news for voters Will anyone even bother voting in future elections? Will they get involved in political causes? Will they spend one dime of their savings supporting a political candidate or a campaign? When you look at what is happening with money and politics in 2010, these are not idle questions. Thanks to changes in the law, company honchos can now buy an election as easily as they order office furniture. The president has tried to make an issue of this in the past 10 days, but I suspect his commentary will have little effect. More from MarketWatch.com: • The Nation Tires of Wall Street 'Justice' • Gold Timers Are Quite Subdued Despite New Highs • The Buck Drops Here In case you missed it, recent Supreme Court rulings mean that corporations can now effectively spend freely on political campaigns, including during elections. Loopholes in the tax code, particularly pertaining to 501(c)4 nonprofits, mean they can do so secretly through anonymous front groups. It doesn't matter whether you are a Republican or a Democrat, whether you hate the president or like him. Under this system, the game is over. Our democracy is dead. We just don't know it yet. Don't believe me? Look at the numbers. Up until now, the gold standard for campaign fund-raising was set by Barack Obama in 2008. With brilliant creativity and energy, his team harnessed the Internet, and combined it with on-the-ground logistics to tap sources of funds from big cities and little towns all across the country. In the end, 320,000 individual donors sent in money, a remarkable achievement. About 200,000 of them gave less than $1,000. The total raised by the campaign was $750 million. At the time it was considered the wave of the future -- the utopian marriage of grassroots democracy and technology. How naive that looks. It's already a period piece. Compared with the financial firepower in the hands of major corporations, that amount of money is chicken feed. Many CEOs can cut checks for millions, even tens of millions, without blinking. They can match all that effort without breaking a sweat. According to data from FactSet, there are around 350 companies on the U.S. stock market that have more than $750 million on hand just in cash and equivalents, such as short-term Treasury bills. Exxon Mobil Corp. (NYSE: XOM - News) has $13.3 billion in ready money. That's 18 times as much as Obama raised in all of 2007-08. Johnson & Johnson (NYSE: JNJ - News) has $12.7 billion. UnitedHealth Group Inc. (NYSE: UNH - News) has about $10 billion. The list goes on. In other words, under the new law, the chief executive of any of these companies could match the most successful grassroots, populist fund-raising campaign in history with a single phone call. That understates the issue; only a small percentage of a company's true wealth is tied up in ready cash. Exxon Mobil, the biggest company, is valued at more than $330 billion. So $750 million is just one quarter of 1% of its value. A quarter of one percent. Who notices a 0.25% movement in a stock price? Annual cash flow runs to tens of billions of dollars a year. No one company will have to pay the full tab to buy each election for corporate America anyway: The bill will be shared. How many companies could chip in $20 million or $50 million without even noticing? You think Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (NYSE: GS - News) or Citigroup Inc. (NYSE: C - News) or Bank of America Corp. (NYSE: BAC - News) can't find that cash around to buy off reform? That's plutocracy, pure and simple. Shareholders will have no say. "Political-speech decisions can be made without input from shareholders, a role for independent directors or detailed disclosure," law professors Lucian Bebchuk of Harvard and Robert Jackson of Columbia will report in a forthcoming paper on the issue. As Bebchuk told me: "Companies certainly are not required, and do not disclose, contributions to intermediaries that engage in political spending." Cornelius Hurley, director of Boston University's Morin Center for Banking and Financial Law, said companies can bury these types of spending in the budget for marketing, community involvement, or lobbying. Also, under the rules, the bigger the company, the more it can spend and hide. "It's incredibly rare that corporate contributions rise to the size that would be material, and only material facts need to be disclosed," says Stephen Bainbridge, law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles. "You'd have to have contributions on the order of 10% of assets to be deemed material." Corporations are only just waking up to the good news. In the last few months, money has started pouring into outside groups. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, a remarkable $180 million has gone into independent political organizations. Most of that, about three-quarters, has gone into organizations on the right. It just so happens those organizations tend to be favored by top business executives. But if you're a conservative and you're cheering, just wait until your interests clash with those of company boardrooms. You think you're going to win? What sort of clout does this money buy? According to data tracked by Media Matters for America, the 10 biggest independent right-wing groups aired 60,052 political ads nationwide between Aug. 1 and Oct. 11. At 30 seconds a commercial, that's about 500 hours of commercials. The Chamber of Commerce spent $10 million running 4,700 adverts during a single week. It's easy to say, "Oh, we're too smart to fall for that marketing stuff. You can't just buy an election. Look at Jerry Brown!" But watch out for the law of small numbers. There will always be the occasional exception. And Brown, who comes from another era, built up a formidable political base before we became a plutocracy. This election is just the beginning. Expect the amounts spent in the future to be vastly greater. Political ads are merely the tip of the iceberg. The real action will come from hundreds of millions spent in areas of propaganda that you'll never see -- from Astroturfing and smears to slush funds. We're talking unlimited money. Expect personal scandals to erupt, as if by magic, around any reform politician with half a chance. Remember, an election isn't like shopping. In politics, if the majority eats Ring Dings, we're all eating Ring Dings. Various experts will try to tell you the new system of unlimited, secret corporate donations can't survive. "I don't believe secretly funding our elections can be sustained," Fred Wertheimer, head of reform group Democracy 21, told the New York Times. "It won't hold up. The public won't stand for it. This is guaranteed corruption." I'm glad he's so optimistic. But who is going to stop it? There are no gatekeepers left with any power. How can you fix a broken political system with a broken political system? How can someone in manacles strike off his own chains? Brett Arends is the author of "Storm Proof Your Money," on how to survive the slump. ___ Popular Stories on Yahoo!: • 3 Ways to Beat Rising Tax Rates • The Best States For Business and Careers • A Reaganesque Proposal for Obama Follow Yahoo! Finance on twitter_logo.jpg Twitter; become a fan on facebook_logo.jpg Facebook. Copyrighted, MarketWatch. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of MarketWatch content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of MarketWatch. MarketWatch shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. 55 comments Show: Post a comment * Comments 1 - 10 of 55 * First * Prev * Next * Last * A Yahoo! User 0 users liked this comment Vote for this comment Vote for this comment 0 users disliked this comment A Yahoo! User 3 minutes ago Report Abuse Only 6 corporations control ALL the media in this country anyway, this was just the final nail in the coffin. Dave K Reply * Scott 0 users liked this comment Vote for this comment Vote for this comment 0 users disliked this comment Scott 7 minutes ago Report Abuse Thanks for telling the truth. The only thing to do is free your mind, be aware no matter how painful it is to watch the gullible, the young who don't have anything to compare the current situation with, just fall for it. Yes, they don't take out a reformer on the issues. It's the affair, the income tax discrepancy. The opposition is so scared, they know they're against the tilt. So much easier to obey the real boss. Now. What will the rest of the world think? And will people get desperate to riot in the streets? Reply
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#15. To: abraxas (#13)
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The legal protections of AbraxasCorp exist at the whim of Congress if AbCorp has no Constitutional rights. I dont need to look at corporate law, because that law is based on the current reality that corps have rights. I dont care what Monsanto and Big Pharma buy ads about. They can not vote. I dont trust corporations (except for AbraxasCorp of course) any more than I trust a politician. I trust the Constitution. If you strip corps of Constitutial rights, the corps become the toys of politicians even more. Monsantos money and resources would be at the disposal of Congressman Dickhead even MORE than now. I'm not afraid of the Big Business Boogieman. I do not like the mingling of government and business either. If a business had no rights (beyond those granted by laws from Congress), that would not stop the mingling, it would accelerate it. Corporations and their resources would function at the corrupt politicians pleasure. What we have now is not perfect, but it's better than the alternative.
Nuts.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" lol...... I trust the Constitution as well and it was written by, for and of the people-- not corporations. If you do not like the mingling of government and business, then why support giving them carte blanche to purchase elections, politicians and LEGISLATION. You always get more of what you subsidize. You are supporting an ELITE structure, that isn't applicable to all business in this nation. The corps have the best government they can buy, but we the people no longer have government for us. The small business man is getting CRUSHED. We have no real competition amongst a bunch of oligopolies. This is what corporate person-hood had given this nation--debt, corruption, unemployment.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Corporations are the creation of the State, and have the legal status of a person. Under the free market corporations would not exist and certainly wouldn't be considered a person.
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson
The Constitution, as interpreted by the SCOTUS in 1886, gives corporations the same rights as a person. Until that changes, I am correct. Sorry. Corporations however CAN NOT VOTE. They can pour as much money on Congresman Dickhead as they want. Actually, it's not the "Mellons" who have been denied speech by the laws that were just repealed by SCOTUS. It was small and medium business interests, who for years have been unable to stop monopoly type legislation crafted by legislators with their back door payments from mercantilist big business. The people I just referenced, in fact, did not. And I'm glad that they finally do. The whole Marxist concept that "only certain people should be allowed to speak" doesn't fly with me, nor should it fly with any American with a respect for freedom of speech. Deal with it kid, the progressives lost their foothold in this arena. Good.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
I don't care what you consider corporations, no offense. Individuals and stockholders, own corporations. They have every right to use and dispose of their property as they see fit, for any peaceful pursuit. That includes buying megaphones or ads on television. That's how liberty works, ya' know?
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Oh come on, that's sheer sophistry. According to that standard, if I as an individual go out knock door to door for a candidate in September, that means I cannot in October. Because, you know, that would exercising the right twice. And since when, honestly tell me when, was there a "number of times" limit on rights? Who gave you, or anybody, the authority to tell me or anybody else how many times we're allowed to speak?
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Oh come on, that's sheer sophistry. According to that standard, if I as an individual go out knock door to door for a candidate in September, that means I cannot in October. Because, you know, that would exercising the right twice. And since when, honestly tell me when, was there a "number of times" limit on rights? Who gave you, or anybody, the authority to tell me or anybody else how many times we're allowed to speak? Your arguments are sophistry.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" You entirely ignore my main point on this thread--corporations are NOT individuals, so they don't deserve individual rights. As an individual, you have your rights to use as many times as you like and so do the shareholders and the people who work for corporate entities. Giving the entity personhood is the crux of the problem.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Do they not have INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS? Yes, they do. Therefore, the CORPORATION doesn't need nor deserve to have them as all the people have them INDIVIDUALLY, as intended in our Constitution, which is supposed to be BY, FOR and OF THE PEOPLE, not the corporations.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The problem with our country is not Big Business, it's BIG GOVERNMENT. They also determined that abortion is okie dokie--do you also agree with that decision? The SC has a long and arduous history of BAD DECISIONS and corporate personhood is just one of MANY. When did the SC become infallible? I missed the memo. Nope, the elites buy the airtime, line the pockets of the candidates THEY want, not who would be best for this nation. The BEST are ignored and marginalized long before they ever make it on the ballot. And if they do make, then they get the "kook" label and are schooled in the shut the hell up threats. Hence, the same lame issues get rehashed that will never be fixed. Notice how much the issue of bank fraud is playing in this election..........crickets. The government is a whore for big business pimps. How many bank bail-outs would it take to make the case? How much health care for Big Pharma and for insurance companies must WE the INDIVIDUALS endure before people realize this most obvious fact? How much more NAFTA and CAFTA and catering illegals to work for big business mus WE THE PEOPLE subsidize? Would you change your perspective when our government MANDATES RFID chips for corporate cronies? Most of our big governemnt is run by, for and of big business. Dept. of energy--oil companies. SEC--bankers. FDA & EPA--Monsanto and Big Pharma. Treasury--bankers. DOD--military industrial complex. FCC-telcom companies. These are just a few examples.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Please quote where I said the SCOTUS was infallible. I'll wait. My point was that of FACT versus your OPINION. It is a FACT that business have the same rights as individuals, per the SCOTUS decision of 1886. No amount of money spent by business on politics can force you to vote how they want. They have no vote, YOU have the vote. You talk as if corporate money will somehow mesmerize you or others into voting against your/their will. It's their money, and they can spend it however they wish. This anti-corporate stuff is a hallmark of leftests, always worried what everyone one else is doing. The problem you have isnt caused by big business, it's caused by big government. I'm fully aware of the SC decision that turned the tide Dillo. They buy the message Dillo. What the masses know of the candidates is filtered through corporate intersts. The leftist hallmark argument is ridiculous and naive, like lefties in general. : ) Again, the problem is that we now have a government by, for and of the corporations, not WE THE PEOPLE. I can't say it any more clearly as you try to restate my "problem". It doesn't need to be restated as I've been very clear on the issue over and over again. We the people have some nebulous notion of liberty within a very tightly controlled corpritocricy these days.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
What the masses know of candidates mostly comes from ads made by the candidates, and from media. Actually, my "leftist hallmark argument" comment is correct. Listen to the Obamaites, they say the same anti-corporate things. It's left-wing dogma. They dont like "Big Business", they like "Big Government". Dr. Dillos prescription- So in other words, you cannot offer a challenge to them. I see. Sorry about the lack of class warfare on this end of the keyboard dude. Turns out, Marxism is a minority position. Who knew?
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Corporations are or aren't anything, fact is, they're composed of individuals. Some of those individuals are owners of the wealth of the corporation. In a free society (not ours!) how you use and dispose of your wealth is YOUR business. Further, given the right of freedom of speech, you can decide to pool your resources with any ol' person you wish, and engage in politics. That's how freedom works. Regardless of how you see "corporations".
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
You don't get to decide how I get to spend my money, if I pool it with others, nor do you get to decide who "deserves" rights. Welcome to liberty dear.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Slavery dear
"Satan / Cheney in "08" I don't care how INDIVIDUALS spend their money. More power to them. A corporation, on the other hand, is NOT an INDIVIDUAL. We have LESS liberty, not more, in a fascist corporatocracy.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Ahhhh, thanks, I needed a good belly laugh tonight. And the difference between "big business" and "big government" is what, exactly? You're talking about the same bunch of people. Or, at least, about the same bunch of shape-shifting monsters in semi-humanoid form. In a sane and honest society -- which has nothing to do with the one we live in -- there wouldn't be any such fiction as a "corporate person." That's just an obvious device for enabling actual persons to do stuff that they can't be held responsible for. If Ted Bundy had been just a little smarter, it would've turned out that all his murders were actually the work of an LLC called "BundyCorp" or some such.
- - - - - - - - - - - Maybe you will have better luck making this obvious point than I have had. Big Business LOVES Big Government--only the tax serfs get shafted and neither Big Business nor Big Government care about that.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Any success I have will be pure luck. If it was a matter of using reason to make the case, you already had it done, 'way, 'way up the thread.
- - - - - - - - - - - Individuals spend their monies in groups, or individually. You don't get a say in how they do it. Move from the paradigm of the socialists, this is what they taught you, that you're not allowed to spend money if you make money. The "big" companies always have a voice. Always. ALWAYS. Get it? The law to let all of us have a voice means we get to fight back? Get it yet?
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Maybe you'd be happier at KOS?
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
There is NOTHING in the Constitution regarding any other entity deserving INDIVIDUAL rights. I want to move back to the CONSTITUTIONAL paradigm. Your socialist diatribe is tiresome, SOL. Why must corporations have PERSONHOOD? Because the SC says so? Well, here's a news flash--the SC isn't infallible and those judges aren't beyond a bribe. You act as if this nation couldn't possible exist without corporate personhood.........well it did and better than it is doing today. Yes, the Big Co's had a voice then, without PERSONHOOD. GET IT? US isn't corporations SOL. INDIVIDUALS are INDIVIDUALS, corporations are not individuals and per the damn definitions DO NOT REPRESENT BELIEFS OF INDIVIDUALS IN THEM OR DEEM LIABILITY FOR INDIVIDUALS IN THE CORPORATION. BY DEFINITION THE INDIVIDUALS ARE SEPARATE FROM THE CORPORATION--sheesh, I hope all caps helps you grasp this salient point.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
For crying out loud, I offered you the LEGAL DEFINITION to aid in your understanding. Let me offer it to you again, maybe, just maybe, you can grasp it this time-- A corporation is an institution that is granted a charter recognizing it as a SEPARATE LEGAL ENTITY having its own privileges, and liabilities DISTINCT FROM THOSE OF ITS MEMBERS. Corporations exist as a product of corporate law. INDIVIDIDUALS exist as a product of mom and dad. Get it?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The obvious thing about your points is you havnt made any. Your populist bumpersticker anti-corporate dogma are not "points". I have discussed this with facts and opinions on how to correct the root problem. Your "points" have added nothing, do not address the problem, and are based on false presumptions. Sorry. You should try running a business. Most business of any size want NOTHING to do with government. Government regulations and meddling make doing business harder, not easier. Those are facts. Sorry. The root problem is Big Government. Reduce the size of government and their meddling in business and they no longer have anything to offer business. Fascism requires Big Government, not big business. Again, I'm sorry for posting facts. Ok, you drank the kool aid. I get it. You're not listening, you're too busy typing in caps. Cheers hon, let me know when you settle down. Slainte.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Sheesh, I find your diversion into socialist labeling insulting SOL. Now, your off into kool aid drinking, pretending this makes some valid point. It doesn't. We have big government FOR big business. It's two sides of the same coin. Big government has grown to meet the demands of big business, creating monopolies and oligarchies. It's a slick little payback for campaign contributions. Hence the fascist cesspool that infringes upon INDIVIDUAL rights and liberties. Once you give individual rights to big business, individuals cease to be of any importance. It is the small business person who suffers the most in this paradigm with massive taxes while big business skates by with subsidies and ripping off the taxpayers.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Ok, if you want to win, then you win. I'll give you time to think about your position. If you still want to win, then consider yourself won. You clearly don't get what I'm saying, from passion on your part. So be it. Slainte. Hope your night goes well. Some day.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Fascism requires Big Government, not big business. Balony. The Dept. of Energy is run by big oil. The FDA is run by Monsanto and Big Pharma. The EPA and the Dept. of Ag. are run by Monsanto cronies. The FCC is run by telcom cronies. The SEC is run by banking cronies. The Dept. of Treasury is run by Big Banking cronies. That's the facts. The root problem is that big government exists FOR big business. That's the fact. Let's refer to the definition of fascism for clarity: Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy. KEY WORD: CORPORATIST “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, a man who knows his fascism.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
All my nights go well. : ) Good health to you too, SOL.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Nope. You have it backward dear. Business and Uncle Sam are in bed, but Sam is on top. Dillo, Sam works for Monsanto and big oil and big pharma, not the other way around. Big business simply bought enough politicians to organize the nation for their benefit. How can you ignore this? This isn't Nazi Germany.........this is corpritocracy USA. You are argueing about which came first the chicken or the egg.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
It's easy to ignore something that is not true. :P In any dealing with government, individual or business, government always has the upper hand. Government holds all the cards. Government literaly controls the playing field where business exists. It's not the chicken or egg, but which one is in control. You might claim the chick is controling the chicken. I say the chick (business) seeks protection and support from the chicken (government).
Dillo, look at who runs the department and the department heads. Government does not have the "upper hand" when Monsanto any other big business is running a department. Government is merely a means for big business to stack the deck in their favor. Tell me when has government asserted anything against Monsanto? When it comes to big business there is no assertion from government because big business runs the department and shuffles the deck to their advantage every time. We had TARP because it was in Goldman Sachs and big banks best interest. Despite OVERWHELMING opposition from the people, they got those tax dollars, but you keep pretending that government "controls" the card game. If that wasn't "cowering before Big Business" then I don't know what would be......
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Oh, and an additional $331 billion in undisclosed securities purchases by the government for Citi wasn't "cowering" at all... Gee, a secret bailout ON TOP OF TARP that has been hidden from the public for two years.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
*Sigh* I think SonOfLiberty was right. Have a good night Ab.
lol.....night, Dillo.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I trust that AbraxasCorp has ENOUGH legal protection without the necessity of sharing my INDIVIDUAL rights. Take a gander at corporate law and show me where they are lacking in protections--a case or precedent to prove your case.
No rights, then Congress can make laws to treat AbCorp as they wish.
Take away those rights and laws change. The scenario I posted is based on if corps had no rights, thus current laws are not applicable.
It's still up to the individual people to wade through the election mud and lies and hold their reps accountable.
And also the government would have unfettered access to manipulate your job and your livelihood via your employer. 
#16. To: Armadillo (#5)
Corporations are groups of people, thus a corporation has the same rights as those people.
#17. To: Armadillo (#15)
I dont trust corporations (except for AbraxasCorp of course) any more than I trust a politician. I trust the Constitution.
#18. To: Armadillo (#5)
Corporations are groups of people,
#19. To: abraxas (#17)
I trust the Constitution as well and it was written by, for and of the people-- not corporations. If you do not like the mingling of government and business, then why support giving them carte blanche to purchase elections, politicians and LEGISLATION. You always get more of what you subsidize.
When reelection comes up, you can vote his butt out. YOU are in charge, not MegaWorldComglomoCorp.You are supporting an ELITE structure, that isn't applicable to all business in this nation. The corps have the best government they can buy, but we the people no longer have government for us. The small business man is getting CRUSHED. We have no real competition amongst a bunch of oligopolies. This is what corporate person-hood had given this nation--debt, corruption, unemployment.
There is nothing "ELITE" about them. YOU hold the power of the vote, not them. YOU have the power.
More people work for small business than large.
The problem with our country is not Big Business, it's BIG GOVERNMENT.
Business would rather not deal with government, but because government is so vast they get in bed with it to gain any competitive advantage.
Reduce the size and influence of government and your problem with business goes away.
#20. To: tom007 (#3)
Yeh - bout time the Mellons and the top 1/2 of one percent getting their say.
They had no voice before.
#21. To: abraxas (#4)
#22. To: abraxas (#6)
Every person in the group has INDIVIDUAL rights--why should they get the right twice at election time?
#23. To: SonOfLiberty (#22)
Every person in the group has INDIVIDUAL rights--why should they get the right twice at election time?
#24. To: SonOfLiberty (#22)
#25. To: SonOfLiberty (#21)
Individuals and stockholders, own corporations
#26. To: Armadillo (#19)
The Constitution, as interpreted by the SCOTUS in 1886, gives corporations the same rights as a person. Until that changes, I am correct. Sorry
#27. To: abraxas (#26)
They also determined that abortion is okie dokie--do you also agree with that decision? The SC has a long and arduous history of BAD DECISIONS and corporate personhood is just one of MANY. When did the SC become infallible? I missed the memo.
That you dislike that reality does not invalidate it.
I disagree with the SCOTUS on abortion, however my disagreement does not change the reality that abortion is legal.
It's their money, and it's legal. If you dont like it, dont vote for them.
Liberty is a good thing. Not everyone exercising their Liberty will do so in a manner that Abraxas or Armadillo likes. That's fine with me, thats's Liberty. :)
#28. To: Armadillo (#27)
#29. To: abraxas (#28)
(Edited)
They buy the message Dillo. What the masses know of the candidates is filtered through corporate intersts. The leftist hallmark argument is ridiculous and naive, like lefties in general.
I've got ridiculous political ads, made by candidates and special interests, all over my TV and the internet. Pundits and the newspaper are telling me how to vote.
Corporations are certainly involved, and are giving money to whatever candidate whos polices are better for their business. Ultimately it's the candidates own mouth, and the media, where the masses get the message.
I dont trust business any more than I trust government. Business exists to make a profit, nothing wrong with that, but it's not in my interest. If I dont like a product from Big Pharma or Monsanto, or whatever I dont buy it.
They can not make me use their product. However government can force me to use a Big Pharma or Monsanto product. By requiring their products be included as ingredients in other products or by giving them money to push their products. Again, the problem is that we now have a government by, for and of the corporations, not WE THE PEOPLE.
Business is cozy with government because Big Government inserts itself into business. This creates Crony Capitalism, or lite-fascism.
To reduce that, reduce the size and scope of government. A government without the authority to help a business is of little use to a business.
To reduce governmental swelling and corporate infection, drain and transfuse the government, apply Liberty. Repeat every 2-4 years. :)
#30. To: tom007 (#23)
#31. To: abraxas (#24)
#32. To: abraxas (#25)
Do they not have INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS? Yes, they do. Therefore, the CORPORATION doesn't need nor deserve to have them as all the people have them INDIVIDUALLY, as intended in our Constitution, which is supposed to be BY, FOR and OF THE PEOPLE, not the corporations.
#33. To: SonOfLiberty (#32)
Welcome to liberty dear.
#34. To: SonOfLiberty (#32)
#35. To: Armadillo (#19)
The problem with our country is not Big Business, it's BIG GOVERNMENT.
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. -- H. L. Mencken
#36. To: Enderby (#35)
And the difference between "big business" and "big government" is what, exactly? You're talking about the same bunch of people. Or, at least, about the same bunch of shape-shifting monsters in semi-humanoid form.
#37. To: abraxas (#36)
Maybe you will have better luck making this obvious point than I have had.
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. -- H. L. Mencken
#38. To: abraxas (#34)
#39. To: tom007 (#33)
#40. To: SonOfLiberty (#38)
#41. To: SonOfLiberty (#21)
I don't care what you consider corporations, no offense
#42. To: abraxas (#36)
Maybe you will have better luck making this obvious point than I have had.
Big Business LOVES Big Government--only the tax serfs get shafted and neither Big Business nor Big Government care about that.
When government gets too big and cozy with business, then certain business can attain a competitive advantage by getting into bed with Uncle Sam. Those are facts. Sorry.
Government likes a relationship with big business because they can get kickbacks, campaign cash, and more power over the marketplace. In return, business gets deals and legislation favorable to their company at the expense of others. Business will support candidates that advocate for the companies interests. Those are facts. Sorry.
Have a nice day.
#43. To: abraxas (#40)
#44. To: SonOfLiberty (#43)
#45. To: abraxas (#44)
#46. To: Armadillo (#42)
Most business of any size want NOTHING to do with government.
#47. To: SonOfLiberty (#45)
Hope your night goes well. Some day.
#48. To: abraxas (#46)
Balony. The Dept. of Energy is run by big oil. The FDA is run by Monsanto and Big Pharma. The EPA and the Dept. of Ag. are run by Monsanto cronies. The FCC is run by telcom cronies. The SEC is run by banking cronies. The Dept. of Treasury is run by Big Banking cronies.
Oil and Monsanto are in bed with Uncle Sam, but Sam is calling the shots. : Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy. KEY WORD: CORPORATIST
The GOVERNMENT organizes a nation according to corporatist perspectives. Business does not organize the government.
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, a man who knows his fascism.
In Nazi Germany, Hitlers government was in charge, any business that did not tow the line was gone.
In Mussolinis Italy, government was in charge, any business that did not tow the line was gone.
#49. To: Armadillo (#48)
#50. To: abraxas (#49)
Dillo, Sam works for Monsanto and big oil and big pharma, not the other way around.
Big business simply bought enough politicians to organize the nation for their benefit. How can you ignore this?
We do not have a weak government cowering before Big Business. We have a too strong government asserting itself.
#51. To: Armadillo (#50)
#52. To: Armadillo (#50)
#53. To: abraxas (#52)
#54. To: Armadillo (#53)
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