I'm not even sure if all of the Essene stuff is true, it just would seem that a lot of it probably is.
In terms of what actual history reveals, have you read the link in post #97?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
What it all comes down to is that ALL religions are corrupt, and all point fingers at each other as to who is evil.
They are ALL evil for the most part.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Christ however is not a religion. To follow him is not a religion.
It is, since he more than likely never existed.
In fact, even if he did, God wouldn't need to embody himself into a man and die on the cross to make a point.
He could just speak from the clouds if He wanted to.
In fact, it's against the 10 Commandments to worship an idol or false god. I guess that's why "christians" wish to condemn Judaism as satanic, since to obey the 10 Commandments would mean to stop worshipping Jesus.
It depends if you want to remove Jesus from the origins of the faith and claim all that counts is what he said, even though what "he said" was fabricated by those at the Council of Nicea and appended, changed, modified, and otherwise spun for the next 1000 years before ever making it into an English bible.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
I know so very few people that simply follow Christ in the ultimate of simplicity that it is, and none that walk into church doors on Sundays.
If anything I'd take the Essene side of the story, since if Jesus DID exist, he WOULD have been an Essene due to not only his place of birth, but the fact that there are historical claims that he WAS an Essene, they really did exist, and they were a peaceful and spiritual people.
I have not heard of ONE war they were involved in. In fact, most if not all of the original Essenes were wiped out by Rome due to their failure to defend themselves through violence.
Like you said, I haven't seen too many people like that walking around these days.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
The research the man did and the references to respected sources cannot be denied.
Have you looked up anything he listed as evidence, such as the Sinai Bible, or the actual historical references to the Council of Nicea?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
I also don't think that you're aware of the history of the Council of Nicea as it relates to Christ? I don't see much to link the two frankly
Two words.
Hesus Krishna
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
I don't have "a site". Which link are you referring to?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
You then have absolutely no frame of reference for God.
The existence of that which is God doesn't depend on the existence of any man.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
I see misery and suffering caused by BOTH the Jewish and Christian religions, as well as that caused by the Islamic religion.
I'd say the Christians have on a whole caused more suffering than the Jews have, when you consider the various Inquisitions, witch trials, Crusades, and other such matters.
Show me the math.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Well for an example, how many Christians don't wholeheartedly support the killing going on over there in Iraq and Afghanistan?
But not even including that, how many people were hidiously tortured to death by the Church itself in the first 1000 years of its history?
How many were killed by the various Crusades?
I don't recall reading about any religious persecution perpetrated by the Jews back then. In fact, they were among the ones being persecuted.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
So, He didn't need Hebrews/Jews either to write down their oral traditions and Chosenite dogma and market it as the Word of God
Correct. In fact, much of what's in the Old Testament is derived from earlier legends from other civilizations, such as the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.
There are MANY earlier "Sons of God" across various civilizations as well, such as Mithras, Krishna, Buddha, and quite a few others.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
You are aware, aren't you, that Jews have 72 names for God to represent His various manifestations?
They all convey a different aspect of the same God.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Elaborate on why you are seemingly ok with that but not with Jesus as a manifestation of God.
The various names of the one God, such as Lord God, I Am, etc., all relate to the One God.
Jesus was a man, a human being who walked the earth (if he actually did that is).
It's like calling a tree a star. You can call it that, but it doesn't mean it is one.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Back when? After the Old Testament slaughters by their forebears? Even the New Testament speaks of Jews as persecutors.
You don't need to convince me that both Christianity and Judaism are bogus and evil.
I already know.
No loving God would order the murder of innocent men, women, and children (including infants). See 1 Samuel 15:3
In fact, a true God who created the Universe and all within it would not need to order his "children" to do anything of the sort.
In the blink of an eye he could devastate a nation or the entire planet, and would not need the help of humans to accomplish his wishes.
Thus, since Christianity is based upon the Jewish Scriptures, and more than likely was created out of various religions with similar man gods, it is equally false.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
You don't need to convince me that both Christianity and Judaism are bogus and evil.
I already know.
I'm not trying to convince you of that. You argued that Christianity had caused more suffering and I contested that calculation. But let's discuss which has endeavored the most historically to ease suffering -- not monetarily but doctrinally and, more importantly, hands-on ministerially to the downtrodden and afflicted. Or, we could return to the original topic and discuss Brother Kapner's interview.
No loving God would order the murder of innocent men, women, and children (including infants). See 1 Samuel 15:3
In fact, a true God who created the Universe and all within it would not need to order his "children" to do anything of the sort.
In the blink of an eye he could devastate a nation or the entire planet, and would not need the help of humans to accomplish his wishes.
No argument from me but you seem to be of the opinion that the Creator of the universe and life itself couldn't manifest in human form if He wanted to do that. What's the rationale behind limiting Him so?
Thus, since Christianity is based upon the Jewish Scriptures, and more than likely was created out of various religions with similar man gods, it is equally false.
Long story short, Christianity is like the expression of the Creator's command: Let there be Light. Sure, humans have not been perfect examples of that but let's talk about Judaism. Or is it Jew-Deism? Or maybe Jew-Daism, with kind of a focus on Nature?
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
On the subject of the Crusades, it seems that you then want to disassociate Christianity from Jewish scriptures but there is evidence that a big motive of the Crusades was to re-enthrone a Davidic bloodline in the Holy Land. Do you agree or disagree?
I'd also like to hear what you think of Br. Kapner's assessment that if you put two Jews in a room for a week, by the end of the week they'll have formed 25 groups -- all of them Jewish oriented. I thought it was funny but probably not a big exaggeration. How about you?
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
No argument from me but you seem to be of the opinion that the Creator of the universe and life itself couldn't manifest in human form if He wanted to do that. What's the rationale behind limiting Him so?
You could argue that He or She (or It) could manifest as a cockroach or a bat, but that doesn't mean He or She would.
The very people whom you distrust so much are the same people who supposedly delivered a Messiah to the world. I find it odd that you trust them with that sort of story, yet distrust them in anything else.
If you delve into the origins of the New Testament, you'll find some extremely dubious history there, and if you follow the known trail of it's existing editions, you'll find words, verses, and entire chapters inserted, omitted, or otherwise modified over time.
Look up Codex Sinaiticus, that might be a good start.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
On the subject of the Crusades, it seems that you then want to disassociate Christianity from Jewish scriptures but there is evidence that a big motive of the Crusades was to re-enthrone a Davidic bloodline in the Holy Land. Do you agree or disagree?
Whatever the motive, how does this fit in with a religion formulated to worship and follow a "Prince of Peace"?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
BTW, what sort of peaceful and holy people would inflict the sick sadistic forms of torture imposed upon those who refused to believe the state mandated religion of christianty, or were even just accused of an infraction against it?
The Inquisitions victims included men, women, children, and even babies.
In 1320 the inquisition added witchcraft to its list of heresies. Many styles of torture had been invented during the inquisition so as to inflict the most horrific pain on the poor victim without killing them. The worst of these were turned upon those accused of witchcraft.
With pope innocent v111 issuance of his papal bull against witches in 1484, the torture of people accused of being a witch reached fanatical proportions. The worst tortures of the inquisition occured in Germany and France.
Millions of innocent people were tortured and murdered during the inquisition. The inquisitors followed procedures set forth by the dominican monks of pope innocent v111. At first the poor accused were told to confess. They were then stripped naked, shaved, pricked with needles for insensitive spots and then examined for marks of the devil.
Before the torture started, the victim was told what was about to happen and in many cases this forced the accused to commit to whatever the inquisitors wanted.
It was noted that a person who refused to talk even under torture was being aided by the devil. While the poor victim was being tortured a clerk recorded what was said. In many cases the clerk recorded things that were not even said.
Each subsequent round of torture was much worse than the one before. The torturer was paid out of seized funds belonging to the victim. If the victim had no money then the relatives were made to pay.
While the poor victims screamed with pain the childish tortures carried on like sadistic maniacs. They sprayed there instruments with so called holy water, wore amulets, herbs and crossed themselves. The exact method of torture varied from place to place. The rack was well used in France during the inquisition.
Some victims were horsewhipped. A sharp iron fork was used to mangle breasts. Red hot pincers were used to tear off flesh. Red hot irons were inserted up vaginas and rectums. A device named the turcas was used to tear out fingernails.
After the nails were ripped out needles were shoved into the quicks. Boots called bootikens were used to lacerate flesh and crush bone. Thumbscrews were used to crush the fingers and toes. Acid was poured on victims and hands were immersed into pots of boiling oil and water.
Eyes were gouged out by irons. Alcohol was poured on the head of the poor victim and set alight. Water was poured down the victims throat with a notted cloth. The cloth was then jerked out tearing up the victims bowels.
There was no limit to the types and cruelty of the tortures. The inquisition meant anything was allowed. The inquisitors were sadistic and mentally disturbered.
Even after the poor victims confessed to things they never did more torture was to follow. On the way to the stake or gallows victims were flogged, burned, branded and had their hands and tongues hacked off. By the 17th century as the catholic church began to loose power the inquisition began to collapse. Millions had died as a result of the inquisition, including men, women, children and babys.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Me: you seem to be of the opinion that the Creator of the universe and life itself couldn't manifest in human form if He wanted to do that. What's the rationale behind limiting Him so?
You: You could argue that He or She (or It) could manifest as a cockroach or a bat, but that doesn't mean He or She would.
How about a burning bush? Doesn't seem a big stretch of the imagination from there to me that He would think a human form might be a step for Him after the plantlife experience.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
how does this [the Crusades] fit in with a religion formulated to worship and follow a "Prince of Peace"?
Well, that's one of His titles from Isaiah 9:6 -- towards the end of the list, though. Since we're talking about Catholics, I'm going to reference the Douay- Rheims version of the Bible:
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
Matthew 10:34 says: Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
Personally, I think of it as the sword of Truth, which is divisive but can lead to a spiritual peace, if not an earthly peace due to the obstinance of others who reject the Truth. But in the age of the Crusaders, people might have been more apt to see it as a weapon of war for God the Mighty. It was a very long time ago and diplomacy probably wasn't as much of a priority back then. Even these days it's still not as high a priority as it should be to prevent war. Wouldn't it be Wonderful if the world could wise up enough soon through the teachings and examples He reflects for everyone to live here in Peace? I think so.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Yaba yaba doo, bible bible bible. You have anything more authoritive?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Wouldn't it be Wonderful if the world could wise up enough
to see they are being fed bullshit. Yes, it would.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
You see GreyLmist, the bible to me is not authoritive, and as much as some people like to think it is, I'm not one of those people.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
BTW, what sort of peaceful and holy people would inflict the sick sadistic forms of torture imposed upon those who refused to believe the state mandated religion of christianty, or were even just accused of an infraction against it?
The Inquisitions victims included men, women, children, and even babies.
10 Most Frightening Torture Techniques from the Middle Ages
From INQUISITION
You really don't want to discuss Br. Kapner's interview for some reason, do ya? I can't imagine why. He does profess to be a Christian but was born a Jew, so you might be somewhat more receptive to his wavelength than a Christian Gentile's. He's even kind of humorous sometimes.
We could debate why the Church was so barbarically primitive hundreds of years ago or milleniums ago and why people in it still aren't models of perfection; why they might have taken literally Old Testament dictats not to suffer witches to live, therefore the Inquistion was not merely a question of tyrants being intolerant of other belief systems; how much stock they may have put in the influences of merciless, Jewish scriptural models or covert Marrano Jews in their midst maybe advising them in those directions to make the Church into an object of scorn; what they considered their duty in battles against what they considered demonic; how Jews and other religions weren't subject to the Inquision's jurisdiction, just people who professed to be Catholics; and on and on. I got the impression, though, from your earlier posts here that even the suggestion of some Marrano Jews perhaps having less than angelic motives and influences within the power structure of the Church and its governance might annoy you as an adjudicator of verdicts like "You hate the Jews," or not.
I'd much rather discuss the timelier Kapner interview than tortured histories. I'm thinking that would be the polite thing to do, FL -- at least some small commentary on your part as to the context of it, other than a dismissal out-of- hand as anti-semitic -- since his views as an insider are what the thread was intended to be about. If you don't want to listen to it but could give an opinion on the bit I cited that I thought was funny and probably not far off- base, that would suffice.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Yaba yaba doo, bible bible bible. You have anything more authoritive?
Jumpin' Jehoshaphat, FL! You're the one who referenced the Biblical title, "Prince of Peace". What would you prefer me to reference in response as more authoritative about that? The New York Times? I hope not. It's not what I consider a trusty source, like you don't think the Bible is.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC