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Title: Thank A Vet?
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URL Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance216.html
Published: Nov 11, 2010
Author: Laurence Vance
Post Date: 2010-11-11 06:22:29 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 1440
Comments: 121
We’ve all seen the bumper stickers: "My son is in the Air Force," "If You Can Read This in English, Thank a Marine," "Proud Vietnam Veteran," "Fly Navy," and of course, "Thank a Vet." Why should we? Why should we call them heroes, give them military discounts, grant them veterans preference, express our support for them with ribbons on our cars, honor them with a holiday, hold military appreciation church services for them, and thank them for their "service"? Veterans Day began as Armistice Day to commemorate the signing of the armistice that ended World War I. It had nothing to do with honoring current and former members of the military like Veterans Day is celebrated today. And if the sole purpose of Armistice Day was to honor World War I veterans, it should never have been celebrated since no American soldier did anything honorable by intervening in a European foreign war. And it doesn’t matter if he was drafted or not. Britain’s last World War I combat veteran, Harry Patch, died last year at the age of 111. He boasted that he hadn’t killed anyone in combat. "War isn’t worth one life," Patch said, it is "calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings." In his autobiography The Last Fighting Tommy, Patch wrote that "politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder." In the last years of his life, Patch warned some young naval recruits that they shouldn’t join. Frank Buckles, age 109, is the only American veteran of World War I still living. When asked while being honored for his service at a 2007 Veterans Day ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery what he thought about being there while the United States was at war, he replied: "I’m no authority, but I’m not in favor of war unless it’s an emergency." I think that Buckles is more of an authority on the horrors of war and the folly and wickedness of war than the current members of the Joint Chiefs. It is only because World War I did not turn out to be the "war to end all wars" that the holiday was changed to Veterans Day as a tribute to all soldiers who fought for their country. Although I believe World War II to be neither necessary nor good, I come not on this Veterans Day to criticize the "greatest generation," who, it turns out, were also great at pillaging and carousing. For reasons I explained in "U.S. Presidents and Those Who Kill for Them," World War II marks the permanent establishment of the American military as the president’s personal attack force to kill by his decree Koreans, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Grenadians, Panamanians, Yugoslavs, Serbians, Afghans, Iraqis, Somalis, Yemenis, and Pakistanis. Next on the list is Iranians. Sometimes these presidential decrees are rubberstamped by a congressional authorization to use force, but they are always preceded by presidential lies and warmonger propaganda. So why should a Vietnam veteran be proud? He was typically young, ignorant, deceived, and drafted. He may have fought obediently, valiantly, selflessly, and fearlessly, but since he had no business fighting in Vietnam in the first place, I have nothing to thank him for. And I certainly can’t thank him for preventing the Viet Cong from turning America into a socialist republic. Besides, LBJ beat Ho Chi Minh to that anyway. Many Vietnam veterans have written me and expressed shame, remorse, anger, and resentment – not pride – for having been duped into going thousands of miles away from American soil to intervene in another country’s civil war. In fact, I have found that it is those who are not Vietnam veterans who are the most vociferous defenders of the war in Vietnam. The most undeserved and oftentimes disgusting outpouring of thankfulness I have ever seen is over those who have fought or are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. The praise and adoration of those fighting in "the front lines in the war on terror" reaches its apex on Veterans Day, which has become a day to defend U.S. wars and recognize all things military. These soldiers certainly have done nothing worthy of thanks. Sure, they have rebuilt infrastructure – after bombing it to smithereens. They no doubt removed a brutal dictator – and unleashed American brutality in the process. And yes, they have rescued orphan children – after blowing their parents and brothers and sisters to kingdom come. What is there to thank our soldiers for? They are not defending our freedoms. They are not keeping us safe from our enemies. They are not protecting us from terrorists. They are not guaranteeing our First Amendment rights. They are not defending U.S. borders. They are not guarding U.S. shores. They are not patrolling U.S. coasts. They are not enforcing no-fly zones over U.S. skies. They are not fighting "over there" so we don’t have to fight "over here." They are not avenging 9/11. They are not safeguarding the American way of life. Oh, and they are not ensuring that I have the liberty to write what I do about the military. What, then, should we thank our soldiers for? Should we thank them for fighting an unconstitutional war, an unscriptural war, an immoral war, an offensive war, an unjust war, or a senseless war? Should we thank our veterans for helping to carry out an aggressive, reckless, belligerent, and interventionist foreign policy? Should we thank the military for sucking $1 trillion out of the federal budget? But, some will say, these soldiers are just doing their jobs. They can’t help it if the U.S. military sends them to fight in an unjust war in Iraq or Afghanistan. They are just following orders. They didn’t enlist in the military to kill people. What would any sane man think about a doctor who takes a job at a hospital knowing that the hospital instructs its doctors to euthanize old and sickly patients – and then says he was just doing his job, following orders, and didn’t take the job to kill people? Why are soldiers treated so differently? Why do they get a pass on committing or supporting those who commit murder and mayhem? But, someone else says, the military has lowered its recruiting standards and is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Many soldiers are ignorant about the true nature of the military and U.S. foreign policy. Why should we fault them for their ignorance? Why should they be criticized for unjustly killing Iraqis or Afghans or Pakistanis? They are just following orders. Let’s go back to the doctor I mentioned. Suppose that after he takes a job in ignorance at what he thinks is a reputable hospital he is instructed to euthanize old and sickly patients? What should he do? I don’t know of anyone who would say anything else but that he should quit his job or at least refuse to euthanize anyone. Again, why are soldiers treated so differently? Why do they get a pass on committing or supporting those who commit murder and mayhem? But, comes another reply, soldiers have a term of enlistment. They can’t just quit their jobs. Doctors can walk away from their jobs at any time. Then I guess it all comes down to morality: Be a mercenary and kill for the state or refuse to do so and suffer the consequences of dishonorable discharge and/or imprisonment. It is high time that Americans stop holding veterans and current members of the military in such high esteem. It is scientists, engineers, inventors, businessmen, industrialists, software developers, and entrepreneurs that made America great – not veterans of foreign wars. It is doctors, iron workers, taxi drivers, bricklayers, writers, electricians, and cooks that positively contribute to society – not soldiers. I would like to be able to thank a vet – on Veterans Day and every other day of the year – but I’m still searching for a reason.
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#1. To: Ada (#0)
(Edited)
I agree 100%. I think the last time America fought a legitimate war was in 1812 and even that is debatable.
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Salon Salisbury, CT
#2. To: Ada (#0)
Boy, that ought to get a lot of Pavlov's sheeple's panties in a twist. "But, but, but they're protecting my freeedums!"
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)
#3. To: Ada (#0)
First, I did not see anywhere if the author was a veteran or not. Second, it seems to me like this is a rerun, been here before??? Third, with NO veterans, would we be certain the author would be here now and in a position to dispense his bile so freely? And lastly, during his lifetime, did the author participate in any manner with the elections of any governments???
It is high time that Americans stop holding veterans and current members of the military in such high esteem. It is scientists, engineers, inventors, businessmen, industrialists, software developers, and entrepreneurs that made America great – not veterans of foreign wars. It is doctors, iron workers, taxi drivers, bricklayers, writers, electricians, and cooks that positively contribute to society – not soldiers.
#4. To: Ada (#0)
Calculated by the establishment to get unemployed riffraff and troublemakers of the street since the establishment is too inept to organize meaningful/rehabilitative tasks for this segment of the population. The inter-related monarchies of Europe had these periodic war escapades until Organized Jewry made wars into major productions (with devastating consequences) to establish the illegal Israeli state and of course to make money as their big guy in London did off the Napolionic war with Britain.
it's "calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings."
#5. To: Tatarewicz (#4)
Really??? Going back to day one, I hardly consider Joseph Warren, George Washington, James Madison and the like as being "riff raff" and needing rehabilitation.
Calculated by the establishment to get unemployed riffraff and troublemakers of the street since the establishment is too inept to organize meaningful/rehabilitative tasks for this segment of the population.
#6. To: Ada (#0)
How about our active duty Vets all go on strike around here -- like a labor union strike -- for about a week? Russia and China and the like would probably be here with their Militaries by then. If Vancey asks real nice, on his knees while he writes up another article saying, "Many thanks in advance", and Lew Rockwell publishes it with his endorsement, maybe our Military will go back to work and make them retreat.
I would like to be able to thank a vet – on Veterans Day and every other day of the year – but I’m still searching for a reason.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#7. To: GreyLmist (#6)
History is NOT a favored subject to most Americans of the ME generations.
How about our active duty Vets all go on strike around here -
#8. To: Cynicom (#5)
Bad example, Cynicom; Tatarewicz' comment certainly would not have included or implied such men. The Revolutionary war was fought with good reason. Your military service (was it during time of war?) and mine closely parallel. Dr. Vance, author of this essay, hits the target perfectly - right in the middle of the X-ring. VietNam war, and the Clinton,Bush,and Obama wars are illicit and unnecessary; WWI and WWII are now properly viewed as terribly suspect. The first rule of war is Propaganda, and the first victim is Truth.
Going back to day one, I hardly consider Joseph Warren, George Washington, James Madison and the like as being "riff raff" and needing rehabilitation
"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." lod
#9. To: Bub (#8)
Well, our military started there, with those men. They risked everything, Warren was killed on day one, so there had to be a starting point. My great/4 grandfather was 18, he took down his musket and joined the fray, killing people. Of course seventy per cent of the populace sat on their hands, did nothing, let the riff raff decide the fate of the country. Then when the shooting was over, they came out of hiding, cheering on the veterans that had won freedom for all. Some things never change.
Bad example,
#10. To: Cynicom (#7)
If they want to learn the hard way that our Military is necessary, regardless of how it's been misused so often by slimeball politicians, that could probably be arranged easy enough.
History is NOT a favored subject to most Americans of the ME generations.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#11. To: Ada, 4 (#0)
Yes. I will thank a vet. This nation honors those who died at Valley Forge and Antietam and on the beaches of Normandy, as well as those who every day put their lives on the line for America in Iraq, be it right or wrong to some. The military nature of America has to change, but those who have served, or are serving, deserve our respect.
#12. To: Cynicom (#3)
What difference does his background make in regard to his argument? You might wish to examine our participation in all foreign and domestic wars and decide for yourself whether any of them were necessary.
#13. To: GreyLmist (#10)
Anyone that participated in the process of choosing a government does not have clean hands. Shifting the blame onto the few is rather cowardly.
If they want to learn the hard way that our Military is necessary, regardless of how it's been misused so often by slimeball politicians, that could probably be arranged easy enough.
#14. To: Critter (#1)
The War of 1812 was the doing of the "War Hawks" who were sort of like today's neocons. They were hoping to annex what was left of Spanish Florida and even conquer Canada. We were lucky to have our country back at the end of it. We have England's preoccupation with other matters to thank for that.
I agree 100%. I think the last time America fought a legitimate war was in 1812 and even that is debatable.
#15. To: Ada (#12)
As a historian of sorts, just perhaps I do have some background in this system. As riff raff, I take offense to those that were and or are sideliners. Please use caution Ada when using the word...YOU...
You might wish to examine our participation in all foreign and domestic wars and decide for yourself whether any of them were necessary.
#16. To: Tatarewicz (#4)
The establishment prefers not to use the riffraff but sometimes, especially if a war is prolonged, that is all they can get. Initially wars kill the best and brightest males of that generation.
#17. To: Ada (#0)
"It is high time that Americans stop holding veterans and current members of the military in such high esteem. It is scientists, engineers, inventors, businessmen, industrialists, software developers, and entrepreneurs that made America great – not veterans of foreign wars. It is doctors, iron workers, taxi drivers, bricklayers, writers, electricians, and cooks that positively contribute to society – not soldiers." Well then, as an Army Vet from '65-'68 Artillery, How about thanking me for 7 Patents as an Engineer. Or the 3 Industrial Manf. Plants that I was Plant Mgr. of? Or the Machine Shop I started when I got out of Mfg.? Other than that, I've really just sucked up my SS.
#18. To: ndcorup (#17)
Well Sir, as riff raff most likely you and I are mucking up this thread in particular and the forum in general. I need to be taught my place. Someone mentioned the best and the brightest as paying the bill by dying. That is not factual, never has been, and anyone desiring to, may peruse the official government records that break down the death statistics by ranks. The best and brightest rise to the top, the riff raff remains at the bottom, this seems always to be true and accepted. Official records show the overwhelming death rate of the bottom layer VS the top layer death rate. Too many people here do not want to be reminded that a riff raff soldier refused to kill any more during WW2 and Eisenhower had him shot. This by a man that never in his military career had one day of combat. Eddie Slovak was against war and killing, he deserted time after time, so he was shot. No loss, just more riff raff.
Other than that, I've really just sucked up my SS.
#19. To: Cynicom (#18)
Isn't it surprising that we Riff-Raff can actually use a.......computer thingy? The Army gave me a lot. Those who haven't served, just don't comprehend. I got E-5 at 12 months, thanks to a Brig. Gen. Kenny, It was a start in Life, and some of the best and worst experiences. But I left the Army changed, and ready to fight for what I wanted. Every male with two arms and two legs should have the experience. And I was paid well for my time later, much later, The V.A. gave me a Liver Transplant when I was 63.
The best and brightest rise to the top, the riff raff remains at the bottom, this seems always to be true and accepted. Official records show the overwhelming death rate of the bottom layer VS the top layer death rate.
#20. To: Ada (#14)
How dare you belittle this country's efforts to fulfill it's manifest destiny! We, as a young Nation again engaged in battle the most powerful military on the planet and defeated them. If England could have driven us back into their colonial empire they would have...preoccupied or not. The Battle of New Orleans was a resounding military victory, pitting a small, outnumbered army of American regulars and volunteers against the most hardened veterans the British could muster. A little bitch like you is not even fit to comment on their sacrifice or achievement. (The War of 1812) - We were lucky to have our country back at the end of it. We have England's preoccupation with other matters to thank for that.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#21. To: Jethro Tull (#11)
Those who fight for wrong might not realize what they are doing but that's no reason to honor them.
be it right or wrong
#22. To: Flintlock (#20)
How dare you belittle this country's efforts to fulfill it's manifest destiny! OMG manifest destiny. The Battle of New Orleans was fought after the war was over. And, yes, the Brits would have rolled over the whole country just the way they did Washington, D. C. if they had put their attention to it.
#23. To: Cynicom (#18)
Someone mentioned the best and the brightest as paying the bill by dying. That is not factual, never has been, and anyone desiring to, may peruse the official government records that break down the death statistics by ranks. Please don't assume that "the best and brightest" are indicative of rank. Plenty of morons in the upper echelon.
#24. To: Ada (#22) (Edited)
Yes, a concept a little bone-smoker like you probably finds repugnant. The combatants didn't know that and fought accordingly...we won They did put their attention to it, and they failed. The contest was akin to an amateur going 10 rounds with Ali to a draw, yet pukes like you would say Ali won. We won the War of 1812 and went on to conquer the continent under the envious eye of England, yet they did nothing because they could do nothing.
OMG manifest destiny.
The Battle of New Orleans was fought after the war was over
And, yes, the Brits would have rolled over the whole country just the way they did Washington, D. C. if they had put their attention to it.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#25. To: Cynicom (#3)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#26. To: GreyLmist (#6)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#27. To: ndcorup (#17)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#28. To: Cynicom (#18)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#29. To: ndcorup (#19)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#30. To: Cynicom (#18)
The one who posted this article, as well as all those who are in agreement with its contents, are as guilty as the bastards who sent all those young men (and most lately women, too) to war. Do my panties have to be in a wad for me to think that way? Hardly! I know too well who are the guilty parties and those giving credence to the subject writing are adding fuel to the fire of the elite. By the way, save your words that are designed to either change my mind or have me look ignorant. I have lived too long, seen too much, studied and researched history too intently, and suffered too many years at the hands of the guilty to think any other way than I do.
... as riff raff most likely you and I are mucking up this thread in particular and the forum in general.
#31. To: ghostdogtxn (#28)
ghost... If you read the walk up to that, the gist was the best and brightest always die in war. That is untrue, always has been and anyone that is interested can view the statistics for the past many wars.
Or is it all bullshit?
#32. To: Ada (#12)
It doesn't matter if none of those wars were necessary. It doesn't change the fact that our Military is necessary. Vance and Rockwell and their sort amount to unnecessary noisemakers with enemy accents. No doubt, keeping us safe from our real enemies and their cadre of serpentine propagandists is not at all what they'd really like to see our Military tasked with doing.
You might wish to examine our participation in all foreign and domestic wars and decide for yourself whether any of them were necessary.
-------
"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#33. To: Phant2000 (#30)
Best and brightest has intrigued me. That is a contradiction it itself, if we have the bottom of the social order doing the dying, surely they are NOT the best and brightest. From experience, when my turn came, the best and brightest managed to skip out on a government mandated service to kill people. Out of thirteen young men, five hustled into college and were exempted. One became a doctor, two engineers, one a pro ball player the other a farmer. They were the best and brightest, never went, sat on the sidelines. We of the riff raff went except one that was homo sexual. Three were wounded, one twice. Yes, we were the hated riff raff that have now become the hated veterans.
By the way, save your words that are designed to either change my mind or have me look ignorant.
#34. To: Ada (#21)
Ada, Make all these eeevil military industrial complex dupes go away, then come speak to me about drawing down our forces. OK?
#35. To: Cynicom (#33) (Edited)
I have NO hate for the "riff raff that have now become the hated veterans". As to the "best and the brightest ... doing the dying", those sending them never identified them in such terms. They were merely identified as "expendable".
Yes, we were the hated riff raff that have now become the hated veterans.
#36. To: Flintlock (#24)
While the Balltle of New Orleans was a win, the War of 1812 was not. We were lucky to get a draw out of it. We can thank Napoleon for that. I don't know what a bone smoker is but Manifest Destiny was certainly repugnant.
#37. To: Phant2000 (#35)
I doubt if there are many here that truly understand how the "riff raff" are indeed determined to be expendable. To write off thousands with the stroke of a pen is beyond the intellectual comprehension of far too many people. I did not mind being seen as the riff raff of society, we knew our place in the social order, however to be used by society as cannon fodder and then be written off here on this forum, as someone not worthy of any consideration, is rather difficult to accept.
They were merely identified as "expendable".
#38. To: ghostdogtxn (#29)
A few years prison would do anyone a lot of good. So I agree with you. And thanks to veterans who won the wars for banksters, prison or the military are the only choices millions of young Americans have these days. In fact, as you well know many who served were given that choice by sentencing judges. But, we should never fail to be grateful for the marines who served in Haiti (?) or those who served in The Philippines(?) or the brave troops who attacked Granada, which had a socialist govt for years, but two weeks before Granada nationalized the banks that laundered drug money destined for the final wash at the Federal Reserve via Miami or Chicago. Smedley Butler pointed to at least 100 wars and conflicts that were unnecessary. So, even if some wars since 1812 were arguably in America's interest (I disagree but I won't dispute it because it's not necessary to making my point) is that any reason to pile up young American bodies without daring to question the need for those losses? Old men who romanticize their military experiences should be told if they helped enslave half of Europe for over 40 years. They are Soviet war vets who fought on the wrong side. George Patton was either a brilliant visionary or a traitor, and those mindless vets would have followed whoever won the debate to attack the USSR while we had the chance. Both sides couldn't be on solid moral ground. And if simply following orders was enough to vindicate vets there wouldn't have been any Nuremberg trials.
A lot of my clients say the same thing about prison. They go in and they have no skills and a bad attitude, and when they come out often times they have learned machine shop or welding or carpentry or even computer skills.
The letter of the law is too cold and formal to have a beneficial influence on society. Whenever the tissue of life is woven of legalistic relations, there is an atmosphere of moral mediocrity, paralyzing man's noblest impulses._Solzhenitsyn
#39. To: HOUNDDAWG (#38)
Romanticize???? That is a stretch of the imagination , rather new to me. I dont know of anyone that ever viewed military life in such a light. The blood and gore, the death and dying were rather realistic teachers, one never romanticized then or later about the dead.
Old men who romanticize their military experiences should be told if they helped enslave half of Europe for over 40 years. They are Soviet war vets who fought on the wrong side.
#40. To: Cynicom (#39)
You can't expect much more from someone who obviously doesn't understand how so many were "used by society as cannon fodder". Furthermore, it is UNACCEPTABLE to be "written off here on this forum as someone not worthy of any consideration".
Romanticize????
#41. To: Cynicom (#18)
I don't see those at the top as any real measure of the best and brightest. Too many of them are the actual riff raff and many at the bottom could be much brighter and better than them, if not artificially held back by the imploders of our economy, our society in general, as well as our governmental cohesion Constitutionally.
The best and brightest rise to the top, the riff raff remains at the bottom
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#42. To: GreyLmist (#41)
That was a tongue in cheek for those that have not a clue of military life.
I don't see those at the top as any real measure of the best and brightest.
#43. To: HOUNDDAWG (#38)
i don't think you meant Cyni here as i know that's the last thing he's ever done. i still make a distinction between enlistees and draftees and even in vets from wars past including VN as they had no access to the internet or any alternative media as they do today.
Old men who romanticize their military experiences should be told if they helped enslave half of Europe for over 40 years.
#44. To: Esso (#2)
"But, but, but they're protecting my freeedums!" I AM a Veteran and I agree, and I imagine a lot of others would too. It is like I have repeated to the Freeptards and Dildoheads sending young men and women to die in an unjust cause does not make it just. What the schmucks at Freeptardia and the slobbering drooling mind numbed Dildoheads really mean is SUPPORT OUR POINTLESS WAR. I've posted it before but Mark Twain and Smedlely Butler both nailed it. One, Twain, was mostly opposed to war throughout his life (he spent about 2 days as a Confederate before taking a powder) the other was a career Marine Major General who was twice awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his valor. Both reached the same conclusion best expressed by Butler after his retirement: Boy, that ought to get a lot of Pavlov's sheeple's panties in a twist.
"I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was part of a racket all the time. Now I am sure of it. ...
...There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism. It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. ...
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. ..."
Smedley Darlington Butler, Maj. Gen, USMC (Ret.)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#45. To: christine, Cynicom, HOUNDDAWG, all (#43) (Edited)
i don't think you meant Cyni here as i know that's the last thing he's ever done. i still make a distinction between enlistees and draftees and even in vets from wars past including VN as they had no access to the internet or any alternative media as they do today. The military is sold, and sold heavily, as a rite of manhood. "Real Men" serve in the military and "wimps" do not. That of course is a lie but many believe it. Many, such as myself, join for the right reasons - to serve. Naivete of the young, the desire to pursue adventure, and all of the writing glorifying military service, causes many to believe that it is a GOOD thing to do. That it is apparent to many older and wiser that it is a con job should not make those who serve a target of opprobrium unless their individual actions merit it. The opprobrium is not upon the young man or woman who has been indoctrinated into the view that it is their duty and then following the call of duty have their desire to serve perverted to foul ends but upon the perverts who use that noble streak to create a weapon of oppression and crass gangsterism. In part, the failure to make the distinction between those who naively join believing all the hogwash they've been fed and those who join for baser reasons, this lack of understanding of why men choose to serve, creates a breach between those who have and those who have served for the right reasons and those who have not served in discussing the matter of war. And yet they should be natural allies - as was shown by Smedley Butler. War and the causes of war do not rest in the hands of naive young men and women it lies in the hands of those who knowingly send them into conflict misusing their lives and energy to further criminal ends. To the guy in the ranks it is duty which dominates, and that is the only force which holds them in place. For those who pervert that desire to serve and do ones duty there lies the guilt. Certainly if I knew what I now know, which I did not know then, when I raised my hand to swear that oath to serve I would never have done so. That knowledge is also not known by most of the kids who choose to serve today. Yes, some do know, but even then all of our textbooks, the media, and our so called leaders promote the call to war, to service, and to uniform. That some still give that greater weight is not necessarily a sign of poor character but quite the contrary. Of course many of the good and decent who once volunteered no longer do, because they are aware of how their energies would be spent. And so the military, and the politicians which control the military, have had to lower standards seeking the naive, the criminal, and the stupid. That is the reality. Ending that cycle is not done by recriminations and catcalls, which raise defensive shields against the message, but by education, and the determination to counter the apathy, and avarice, of those who have been content to see the wars rage - as long as it is not their son or daughter spilling their blood, or getting their head blown off.
Old men who romanticize their military experiences should be told if they helped enslave half of Europe for over 40 years.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#46. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#45)
IMO, it's a way for lower class kids who haven't the luxury to attend some useless university to garner government benefits and health care bennies going into the future. It's critically important to make a distinction between those who were drafted and the current volunteers. The draftees deserve our unswerving respect as do some kids today, however misguided.
#47. To: Jethro Tull (#46)
And that is true. What we need is a return to the Peace Corps as Kennedy set it up and put that useful youthful energy to work, and train them, doing good around the world. That would be much more productive in terms of national defense as it would help to prevent wars and the causes of war before it becomes a war. However, to the Banksters who are the ones really pushing it War is "profit center" or as Smedley Butler put it "War Is A Racket", and to hell with, as Cyni puts it, the "riff-raff". Part of the problem is that non-war industries have been moved to other countries and we are being set up to be the enforcement arm of the "New World Order" of Banking Fiends.
IMO, it's a way for lower class kids who haven't the luxury to attend some useless university to garner government benefits and health care bennies going into the future.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#48. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#47)
Actually that's just another government job, IMO. I'd rather slap a 20% tariff on transnational (formally American) products coming into America. It's tough medicine, and we'll all be paying more for our crap at WalMart, but 'made in America' products instantly become 20% cheaper. Just a thought.
What we need is a return to the Peace Corps as Kennedy set it up and put that useful youthful energy to work, and train them, doing good around the world.
#49. To: Jethro Tull (#48)
Why not both? We do need to maintain a presence in the world, and it would be, as much as it would help others, promoting our interests in a positive way. Although I prefer it done by a private group why not have a channel to direct that youthful altruism in a way that benefits all? Just like the military it would be a term of service not necessarily a lifelong pursuit.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#50. To: Cynicom (#18)
Slovak did not desert because he was against war and killing. He deserted because he was "too scared" to serve in a rifle company (his words). As if every other Joe in his unit weren't scared as well. He was given an opportunity to throw away his statement and return to his unit by every single officer that spoke with him as his case went up the chain of command. He didn't think they would kill him butt instead would send him back to prison, where he was most comfortable. He thought wrong. You are correct that he was riff-raff. Slovak was a career criminal who had been in and out of prison since he was a kid. He was classified 4-F due to his criminal record until 1943 when they needed warm bodies, at which time they reclassified him to 1-A and drafted him. Had he went back to his unit and served, the chances are very good that after the war was over that he would have went right back to being a criminal and the tax payer would have had to pay for his imprisonment. Good riddance to bad trash as far as I am concerned.
Eddie Slovak was against war and killing, he deserted time after time, so he was shot. No loss, just more riff raff.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#51. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#49)
Well, I'd disagree and suggest that America was great when it was an isolationist, xenophobic nation. A nation, by definition, is a boundary guided by language, culture and border. Those deep into conspiracies can trace the point in American history where we strayed, but I'm more inclined in stopping the puppet masters and their programs as they present themselves now. I give you Jan Brewer and the state of AZ, aided by Joe Arpaio.
Why not both? We do need to maintain a presence in the world, and it would be, as much as it would help others, promoting our interests in a positive way.
#52. To: Ada (#0)
I'm a Vet and I don't want anyone to thank me for anything. There is no reason TO thank me. No one forced me to join and my time in Panama, Kuwait/Iraq, Somalia, Haiti or Bosnia had nothing at all to do with "keeping us free."
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#53. To: Jethro Tull (#51)
A WELL-ARMED isolationist, xenophobic nation.
Well, I'd disagree and suggest that America was great when it was an isolationist, xenophobic nation.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#54. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, All (#50)
Rather harsh sentence by someone that was not there. Of course you already know that he was shot for a reason OTHER THAN DESERTING, YOU ALREADY KNOW THE OPINION OF THE MAJORITY INVOLVED.
Good riddance to bad trash as far as I am concerned.
#55. To: Cynicom (#37)
Not intending to be Maudlin, but words from the past say it well ---"ALL gave some, SOME gave all". Most of us that served knew some of the last category. And by now, most of us are immune to the slugs who demean us.
"I did not mind being seen as the riff raff of society, we knew our place in the social order, however to be used by society as cannon fodder and then be written off here on this forum, as someone not worthy of any consideration, is rather difficult to accept."
#56. To: ndcorup (#55)
Hey man, thanks for your service and thanks for still being alive.
#57. To: Jethro Tull (#51)
Well, I'd disagree and suggest that America was great when it was an isolationist, xenophobic nation. A nation, by definition, is a boundary guided by language, culture and border. Those deep into conspiracies can trace the point in American history where we strayed, but I'm more inclined in stopping the puppet masters and their programs as they present themselves now. I give you Jan Brewer and the state of AZ, aided by Joe Arpaio. And I would respectfully disagree. When America was largely isolationist Steamships were the state of the art, Telegraph was the primary means of communication across the Atlantic, and those crazy kids in the Bicycle shop were still experimenting with gliders. As well we were never completely isolationist. It was tariffs levied to protect northern manufacturing and banking interests which helped drive us into a Civil War. Not that I am opposed to tariffs per se, but when they are levied out of political motivation to the disadvantage of other citizens then they cease to be revenue collection become an adjunct to Crony Capitalism. We now live in an age where communications technology instantly connects Hong Kong, London, and New York in a Global web. While Tariffs and Imposts are, I believe, important in both raising revenue and leveling the competitive playing field between domestic industry and foreign competition it is nevertheless competition which forces innovation and efficiency. So, there is a balancing point. Illegal immigration, and protecting our borders, is not the same thing - it is only a superficial similarity. As well it is nonsensical regulations levied in the interest of the most powerful lobbies which is hobbling American industry as much or more than foreign competition. American business should be able to compete on a level playing field and regulations need to be formulated for the protection of people from fraud, and pollution, and nothing more. However, that is not what they do. They are, in many cases (take the AMA for example), structured and arranged so as to establish a preference for one group over another. The matter of real reform is not a subject I can attempt more than outline in a forum post, but it would revolve around the key principle of "rational self interest" not "special interests" which is what we have now.
Why not both? We do need to maintain a presence in the world, and it would be, as much as it would help others, promoting our interests in a positive way.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#58. To: ndcorup, All (#55)
From the tone set here by quite a few, it is easily recognized that regardless of how we got there, our service is to be demeaned, we were truly expendable. Earlier I mentioned Eddie Slovik. His trial for desertion started at ten AM and at eleven forty AM he had been convicted and sentenced to be shot. All of this "justice" was administered by desk officers that had never seen or heard a shot fired in Europe. Sloviks "legal adviser" was not an attorney. Later is self shame the desk officers admitted it would have a shorter trial except they argued whether Slovak should be shot or hung. Slovak was a nobody, petty criminal, Ike ON HIS OWN DECIDED TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF HIM AND SO HE DID. The trial officers were horrified and several confessed their shame, after the fact. But, so what, the world was better off without such trash.
And by now, most of us are immune to the slugs who demean us.
#59. To: Cynicom (#54)
He was shot for a variety of reasons: Lt. Col. Henry J. Sommer, the division judge advocate: “The accused is an habitual criminal. He has never seen combat, has run away twice when he believed himself approaching it and avows his intent to run again.…” Maj. Frederick J. Bertolet, assistant staff judge advocate, ETO (European Theater of Operations): “If the death penalty is ever to be imposed for desertion it should be imposed in this case, not as a punitive measure nor as retribution, but to maintain that discipline upon which alone an army can succeed against the enemy.” An official comment, undated, from C. Robert Bard, a colonel in the judge advocate general’s office, provides the following: “During the period 1 January 1942 through 30 June 1948, 2,864 Army personnel were tried for desertion.…Of these, forty-nine were sentenced to death. Only one was executed.” Over a six-and-a-half-year period, then, reasons were found by those in higher authority to void the death sentences of forty-eight men found guilty of desertion. Only in Slovik’s case was no reason found. SIovik, guilty as many others were, was made an example—the sole example, as it turned out.
Of course you already know that he was shot for a reason OTHER THAN DESERTING, YOU ALREADY KNOW THE OPINION OF THE MAJORITY INVOLVED.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#60. To: Cynicom, ndcorup, All (#58) (Edited)
Eddie Slovak demeaned himself. He attempted to game the system and lost. They even offered to allow him to recant DURING HIS TRIAL. He refused. He dug his own grave and it is not being disrespectful to the military to say so.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#61. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#57)
I beg to differ. All of the above were the state of America, not of the world. It was our benevolence that allowed erstwhile lesser nations to share in develop (for a price as well they should). As for tariffs, it isn't a matter for debate unless you disagree with our Constitution. I lose you on illegal immigration. It's illegal and makes a mockery of our immigration policy. It will be illegals who bring down unemployment, Medicare, Medicaid, but I'm a voice in the wilderness. God help all those American citizens who rely on them, or soon will.
When America was largely isolationist Steamships were the state of the art, Telegraph was the primary means of communication across the Atlantic, and those crazy kids in the Bicycle shop were still experimenting with gliders. As well we were never completely isolationist
#62. To: Jethro Tull (#34)
Might as well draw our troops out of South Korea. Not enough of them to stop the Yellow Horde from crossing the 38th parallel. The South Koreans may or may not be able handle them but its their problem and not ours.
Make all these eeevil military industrial complex dupes go away, then come speak to me about drawing down our forces. OK?
#63. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#59)
Out of thousands, he was chosen by IKE, to set an example. Ike went against the advice of his staff. One may avail themselves of books written by those on the court martial board that were horrified that an example was to be made of one that was from the bottom step of society. I have never before come across anyone else, military or no, that rushes to such harsh judgment about an event, and they display so little knowledge.
He was shot for a variety of reasons:
#64. To: Ada, Jethro Tull, cynicom (#62)
Au contraire, mon ami. The US holds treaties around the world based on UN resolutions/US treaties with sovereign nations; in fact, US military forces in South Korea are under UN jurisdiction. If a US troop is killed, their remains are brought back to the USA in a coffin with a UN flag draped over it to this very day. Might as well draw our troops out of South Korea. Not enough of them to stop the Yellow Horde from crossing the 38th parallel. The South Koreans may or may not be able handle them but its their problem and not ours.
#65. To: Ada (#62)
Ada... Those few troops in South Korea are bait, they are expendable and will be written off in any land war. The rank and file may or may not be aware of that. It has been done before, sacrifice American lives, write them off. In case of a land war with North Korea alone, the latest troop requirement for our army to save ourselves is...690,000 grunts on the ground within sixty days. Of course we will have other Americans willing to go to their aid, wont we??? Or do we subscribe to writing off 30,000 sub standard Americans as no loss?
Might as well draw our troops out of South Korea.
#66. To: Ada (#0) (Edited)
Honestly, I think the only people proud of serving in Vietnam are the people that would also be proud of stabbing you in the back. Those that can admit they made a mistake I have much respect for, than those that act like they did nothing wrong and are proud of what they did.
So why should a Vietnam veteran be proud? He was typically young, ignorant, deceived, and drafted. He may have fought obediently, valiantly, selflessly, and fearlessly, but since he had no business fighting in Vietnam in the first place, I have nothing to thank him for.
God is always good!
#67. To: Jethro Tull (#61)
Ahhhhhhh! Now that I have a nice hot cup of tea, grown in India and packaged in France, I can continue. First, to get it off the table, I do not disagree with you on illegal immigration, and would like to see the so-called H-1b Work Visas sharply curtailed. Both are driving down American wages, and act to the detriment of the common man. I am, rather than an advocate of "free trade", an advocate for fair trade i.e., what is fair to the people of the United States. Of course fairness is a matter of perspective too. The American Steel Industry collapsed because of two things: 1. Tariffs that isolated the U.S. Steel Industry and protected them from bad business decisions. 2. Inflexible Unions opposed to modernization because it would put "Union Members" out of a no longer needed job. When the Tariffs were lifted U.S. Steel producers collapsed and the "Union Members" were ALL put out of work as entire plants closed. So, both were short sighted as despite their great advantage of short shipping routes to their customers the customers were able to buy a better product for less on the open market despite much higher shipping costs. The lesson is that Tariffs are not a panacea. Protectionism, and isolationism, are no longer viable in world of producers and markets. That does not mean we have to allow vast inflows of goods brought about as a result of near slave labor and no environmental regulation. Both from self interest and as an ethical matter. So, tariffs should be high enough, and no higher, to equalize the difference. That preserves competition while at the same time protecting domestic industry and jobs. Another long term objective, something that is like waving a Cross wrapped in Garlic to a Vampire so far as our Bankster Masters see it, is the encouragement of employee ownership. Not communisim but businesses owned and run by the people who work in them. There are, at least, two good reasons to encourage it: 1. Employees who hold a real stake in the business have self interest in seeing that the business succeeds. 2. It encourages local ownership, and discourages selling out to a foreign interest. If they sell out they're selling themselves out. 3. It empowers the workers making them more self-sufficient. However, the Banksters have, in the past (Pan-Am Airways comes to mind) a distinct aversion to financing employee takeovers, and have been reluctant to float the loans necessary to do it. A good case study is a small steel mill near where I live. The major corporation that owned it decided it was not profitable enough to keep open. Problem was it was the only major employer in the community in which it was located and closing it meant large scale unemployment for the community. So, the employees bought the plant mortgaging their own homes and taking on 60K of debt per household. A year later the mill was flourishing and was more profitable than ever. Within a couple of years the debt was retired and the employees all owned their own share free and clear. The solutions to our problems are not just erect a wall and pretend no one else exists. It just is not going to work in an interconnected and interdependent world. What is needed is a dose of rational self interest. It was commented under Reagan that a rising tide lifts all boats, and I believe that to be true, but only if we drive a stake through the heart of the Bankster Vampires sucking the lifeblood from the planet.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#68. To: Cynicom (#63)
Those books were written years after the fact - after the men had a chance to reflect on what they had done. I gave you a link from an article by Cpt. Benedict B. Kimmelman who sat on the jury. In that link were quotes from the JAG and the assistant JAG. No one was "horrified" at the time the event took place. Kimmelman didn't become "horrified" until after the Battle of the Bulge when he was captured and in a German POW camp and reflected upon what he had done. The men on the firing squad were also not "horrified." One stated, ""I got no sympathy for the sonofabitch! He deserted us, didn't he? He didn't give a damn how many of us got the hell shot out of us, why should we care for him?" The other soldier said, "I personally figured that Slovik was a no-good, and that what he had done was as bad as murder." I have never before come across anyone else, military or no, that rushes to such harsh judgment about an event, and they display so little knowledge. Just because I do not agree with your portrayal of Slovak as a poor victim does not mean that I have no knowledge of the matter.
One may avail themselves of books written by those on the court martial board that were horrified that an example was to be made of one that was from the bottom step of society.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#69. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, All (#68)
Sorry to disagree but your knowledge of that affair and how the military works is abysmal. Especially for someone that was once a part of the system.
Just because I do not agree with your portrayal of Slovak as a poor victim does not mean that I have no knowledge of the matter.
#70. To: Cynicom (#58)
Cyni, I have the utmost respect and highest regards for soldiers who have served honorably even in what were dishonorable causes (the assumption being that most who served believed the propaganda that got them involved). I had an uncle who was a POW in Germany and who was the recipient of many medals. And one of the nicest, kindest, most decent man you could ever hope to meet. I respect men like that. The ones I don't respect are the ones who made up the propaganda that has gotten us involved in various blood-letting enterprises where we had no national interest or any business. As Smedley Butler rightly pointed out, war is a racket, a racket to enrich the few at the expense of the many and should never be fought until and unless it can be shown that it is being waged against real enemies and in our national interest,* not on tactics (like the War on Terror). How does one, or one nation, win a war on terror? Would it not require the extermination of most of mankind since almost all of us are terrorists by some definition? And our country has created terrorists by killing innocent people. Their family members won't be satisfied to think of their innocent loved ones as "collateral damage" and their deaths as being somehow "for the greater good." Politicians and bankers should get to fight their own d@mned wars. I bet you there wouldn't be many if that were the case. *National interest, not the pecuniary interest of people in the MIC and the bankers. People who would throw their own mother under the bus if there was a couple of dollars in it for them.
From the tone set here by quite a few, it is easily recognized that regardless of how we got there, our service is to be demeaned, we were truly expendable.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#71. To: Ada (#62)
Exactly right. We were there as a tripwire. What the damned N.Koreans likely knew was that we had our dirty little 175mm nukes aimed at their invasion passes. Our standing orders were, upon order, Fire our nukes, blow the Guns, and run for our lives. Because we had about 15 min. to live. Definitely made booze your recreation.
"Might as well draw our troops out of South Korea. Not enough of them to stop the Yellow Horde from crossing the 38th parallel. The South Koreans may or may not be able handle them but its their problem and not ours."
#72. To: James Deffenbach (#70)
James... Agreed. I approach all views of the grunts in the military with a skeptical eye. I was in the unenviable position in the mi8litary, of having someone stand in front of us and tell us we were expendable. Seven of us on each crew. It was all passed to us in the abstract, but it did not take a genius to realize what was being said. It boiled down to, if you go, you wont be back, death sentence, for doing your job. I am rather jaded concerning those that have zero regard for the grunts, past or present. In due time they may well change their minds.
#73. To: ndcorup (#71)
Most here have not a clue as to how serious that is and how expendable you were. I do. I had friends that were firing regular munitions point blank into charging Chinese hoards, killing them by the thousands. They finally spiked their guns and ran for their lives. Those still in Korea will be written off, there is no way we can save them nor help them. This was done in WW2, write them off by the thousands and move on.
Because we had about 15 min. to live.
#74. To: Original_Intent (#67)
1. Tariffs that isolated the U.S. Steel Industry and protected them from bad business decisions. 2. Inflexible Unions opposed to modernization because it would put "Union Members" out of a no longer needed job. O_I - Our steel industry collapsed because of our entanglement in global treaties (agreements is more accurate) that for whatever reason we abide by. Out congress has willingly surrendered their constitutional oversight for a pound of flesh. It is THEY, not the president, not the Senate, and not the unions who have the ability to cancel these (WTO/NAFTA) agreements. We simply need to fire the oafs and employ the clear thinkers. (((((((((((((( WASHINGTON - The World Trade Organization has ruled that stiff tariffs President Bush imposed last year to give American steel companies time to get back on their feet violated global trade rules, officials who have seen the preliminary decision said Wednesday. Administration officials said they would appeal the decision and that the tariffs will remain in effect during the appeal process. "We believe the steel safeguard measures comply with our international obligations and will appeal the panel report if it is finalized without change," said a U.S. trade official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. U.S. steel-consuming industries, however, urged the administration to end the "safeguard" program, which has two more years to run. They have complained that the high tariffs have cost their companies 200,000 jobs over the past year. "We need to find other ways to help the steel industry without hurting their customers," said Lewis Leibowitz, general counsel for the Consuming Industries Trade Action Coalition. I am, rather than an advocate of "free trade", an advocate for fair trade i.e., what is fair to the people of the United States. Of course fairness is a matter of perspective too. The American Steel Industry collapsed because of two things:
WTO rules against tariffs: Steel measures violate global trade, panel says
#75. To: buckeroo (#64)
Probably true, now. When I was on the DMZ we saw no evidence of the UN. The 7 guys killed when I was there were shipped back under OUR flag. I was slated to be an "escort" for one guy, passed on it. I don't handle funerals well. I did go to a KATUSA's funeral, for a day or two. Not sure how long it was. Their trip to Happy Mountain is a Drinking/Eating Affair. Now THEY know how to Die! I could reasonably converse in screwed up Korean. I was representing the Army. We also paid for it.
"in fact, US military forces in South Korea are under UN jurisdiction."
#76. To: Cynicom (#73)
How do you spike guns? in the field. I assume you are talking about howitzers and the like.
They finally spiked their guns and ran for their lives.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#77. To: Cynicom, ADA, buckeroo (#73)
Enjoy the scenery --- Camp St. Barbara http://www.qsl.net/wd4ngb/stbarbara.htm
#78. To: tom007 (#76)
Put a charge in them and blow them up so they are unserviceable. One of my friends was lying wounded in Tokyo General hospital when the doctor came in and said he was outta there. He thot he was going stateside. No deal. He was not fit for infantry duty so they put him in artillery so he could ride in a truck. They killed Chinese as long as they could, spiked their guns and took off running. After his second wounding, they reluctantly shipped him back stateside.
How do you spike guns? in the field.
#79. To: ndcorup, ada, cynicom (#75)
Lead by U.S. Army Col. Donald Kropp, officials from the United Nations Command Military Armistice Commission (UNCMAC) salute a casket draped with the U.N. flag. The casket is believed to contain one of five U.S. soldiers killed in the Korean War who were repatriated during a ceremony at the Panmunjom Freedom House. The UNCMAC officials received the remains from North Korean officials during the eighth repatriation ceremony held since joint search and recovery operations began in Korea in 1996. The five sets of remains brings the total returned to 19. Kim Yong-kyu, a spokesman for the U.N. command said the remains were recovered from Gaechon City, about 50 miles north of Pyongyang. The U.S. 2nd Infantry Division suffered nearly 5,000 casualties while retreating through the area after China entered the war in late 1950 heightening the possibility that the remains are of U.S. soldiers. The repatriated remains will be shipped to the Army's Central Identification Laboratory in Hawaii for processing. (U.S. Air Force photo by Staff Sgt Jim Varhegyi) (RELEASED) 
Repatriation Ceremony
#80. To: buckeroo (#79)
I had friends, shot down over the North, never found, MIA and finally a year ago written off by pen as KIA. It never ends.
#81. To: ndcorup (#77)
We need a few of those on the US border with Mexico.
#82. To: Cynicom (#78)
And if you don't have the C-4 handy, you can load a round with a PD fuze and roll a grenade down the tube. We also understood that the tube was shot after we fired our Nuke Rd. Don't know.
"Put a charge in them and blow them up so they are unserviceable."
#83. To: buckeroo (#81)
The nice thing about the 175mm Gun was that they'd shoot 22 Mi. You could sit back a ways and sip a brew while the round was in the air. :-)
"We need a few of those on the US border with Mexico."
#84. To: ndcorup (#83)
Yeah... have a brew while watching a few bodies snapping is something I want to see on the Southern border. BUT NO ...... all we get are signs from DHS and BLM.
#85. To: ndcorup (#82) (Edited)
We carried the 10,000 pounder. One drop, firewall the engines and run like hell.
We also understood that the tube was shot after we fired our Nuke Rd. Don't know.
#86. To: Cynicom (#80)
Today, America is just an arm of the UN. That picture I posted shows a coffin of at least one US soldier that was draped in a UN flag. Meanwhile back at the chicken ranch, illegals are taking over the southern border of the US. I wonder if the USA has agreed with Mexico and the UN about this invasion.
It never ends.
#87. To: buckeroo (#86)
Dont tell the illegals but if a draft is instituted, they will be among the first to go.
#88. To: Cynicom (#69)
If I am so ignorant about the Slovik matter and "how the military works" then please educate me, because with the exception of my opinion of Slovik, everything I have stated about him I have backed up with a link from one of the men who found Slovik guilty. That cannot be said about you. You claim that Eisenhower went against the advice of his staff without providing a lick of evidence to back up the claim. On the other hand, I have provided a link which clearly shows that he was found unanimously guilty, that the President of the Court Martial board sentenced him to death, that the death sentence was enthusiastically approved by the JAG, the assistant Jag, and the division commander, MG Cota. Contrary to your claim, Eisenhower followed the advice of the people directly involved in the matter. As for not knowing how the military works, those are empty words you threw out because I do not agree with your attempt to cast Slovik as a victim. Yeah he was a victim in the sense that he and millions of others were drafted and forced to fight a war we had no business fighting. Should he have been executed? No, probably not. The other 49 weren't. However, he knowingly played the odds and lost. He was given every opportunity to recant his written statement. When the cook took Slovik to his CO, the CO tried to get him to recant his written statement. He refused. The JAG tried to get him to recant his written statement prior to the court martial. He refused. The members of the court martial tried to get him to recant his written statement, not once but twice during the court martial. He refused. If he had recanted they would have dropped the whole damned matter. They did everything but beg him to man up and go back to his unit. Since my knowledge is so abysmal, please tell me which of the facts I have stated are untrue and/or what I have left out.
Sorry to disagree but your knowledge of that affair and how the military works is abysmal. Especially for someone that was once a part of the system.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#89. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#88)
Education seems to be out of the question. Any person posting here prints a photo of himself, some good, some not so good. Brashness, immaturity and arrogance always stands out. It turns people off. Add incivility and obscene language to the photo and it comes across in living color. ON the forum we are the portrait we paint.
If I am so ignorant about the Slovik matter and "how the military works" then please educate me,
#90. To: Cynicom (#89)
Any person posting here prints a photo of himself, some good, some not so good. Brashness, immaturity and arrogance always stands out. It turns people off. Add incivility and obscene language to the photo and it comes across in living color. ON the forum we are the portrait we paint. I have been neither uncivil to you nor have I used obscene language in discussing this topic with you. That is nothing more than a red herring. I find it funny that you had no problem in posting to me until it was time for you to put up or shut up. LOL! As if people can't see through your pitiful attempt to hide the fact that you are incapable of refuting the link I provided or anything I have said. Begone old man and quit wasting my time.
ducation seems to be out of the question.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#91. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#90)
It is too late to withdraw what we have all seen. The portrait has been readily available. It could use a lot of work. That is advice, take it or leave it. We have seen YOU.
#92. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#90)
True mark of a quitter. I hope you stay and add something, of which you are capable. A little polish here and there and we mite see something different.
Begone old man and quit wasting my time.
#93. To: Cynicom (#91)
We have seen YOU. That is nothing more than a red herring. I find it funny that you had no problem in posting to me until it was time for you to put up or shut up. LOL! As if people can't see through your pitiful attempt to hide the fact that you are incapable of refuting the link I provided or anything I have said.
It is too late to withdraw what we have all seen. The portrait has been readily available. It could use a lot of work. That is advice, take it or leave it.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#94. To: Cynicom (#92)
I never said I was going anywhere. Since you refuse to back up your words with anything resembling proof and throw out red herrings in order to deflect from that fact you are wasting my time.
I hope you stay and add something, of which you are capable. A little polish here and there and we mite see something different.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#95. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#94)
Wasting your time?? Do you realize how adolescent that is??? How arrogant. If you are unable to comprehend what I have said to you in polite terms, then any advice by anyone would indeed be a waste. Proof of what? A few here have in the past put it very bluntly their conception of you. I prefer a more civil approach. There is much to be learned, no one here is the repository of all knowledge. Listen and LEARN.
I never said I was going anywhere. Since you refuse to back up your words with anything resembling proof and throw out red herrings in order to deflect from that fact you are wasting my time.
#96. To: Ada (#0) (Edited)
Ok, dammit, I agree. From now on, I will reach to shake "What do you mean, illegal orders?" "Well, you followed your chain-of-command "Treason... War Crimes?" "Just tell them you were just following orders."
hands and say "thanks for your
honorable intentions when you signed up
but, why did you follow all those illegal orders?"
into battle when no war was "declared" by Congress.
That was a violation of your oath of office
and consequently you can be charged
with war crimes and maybe even treason."
~~~~~~~
Best Movie Monologue
Defensive Racism Has Its Place
#97. To: Cynicom (#95)
Do you realize how adolescent that is??? How arrogant. If you are unable to comprehend what I have said to you in polite terms, then any advice by anyone would indeed be a waste. Proof of what? A few here have in the past put it very bluntly their conception of you. I prefer a more civil approach. There is much to be learned, no one here is the repository of all knowledge. Listen and LEARN. One thing I've noticed about you is that when you begin loosing a debate you change the subject and start posting red herrings like the above. It's too bad you aren't man enough to admit when you are wrong. It's a pattern.
Wasting your time??
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#98. To: Ada, cynicom, original_intent (#0)
you know, i really liked this article & its sentiments- another titled 'the troops don't protect our freedoms' has been posted here for many years, but is not so caustic. But after seeing how this article hurts many good men here, i would rethink the manner in which these ideas are expressed. out of Christian charity. because if one merely insults & alienates those who would otherwise agree with then, message is not effective.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#99. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, All (#97)
Noticed???? Good heavens. Please fill me in on any debate I have ever lost. I would like an unblemished record. Seriously...To me winning means little, I would rather learn something. And if you have ever paid attention to my postings, in an unbiased fashion, you will find that quite often I compliment posters with the grade of A+ or better. This on threads I dont even post on. Why??? Because I read, I learn, I appreciate and respect. If one were to look, I bet I have given you an A+ in the past because you are intelligent and do some very good writing. In my past, I have given lectures to large groups of doctors. Thats bad because they all KNEW I was an ignorant rube and they knew everything. Try it sometime. That was my assignment and I had to do it. But I did know two or three things about the subject that they did not know. It was in their interest that they admit such and listen. How does one do it??? Very difficult because they, as you, are too often unwilling to consider what someone else has to say. Right or wrong, listen. The doctors? They were rude, chatting among themselves, showing their disdain for the rube up front. Until, I called attention to their rudeness, and then zapped them with one of their failures, one they wished no one knew. From that point on, they were polite, listened to the rube and some even thanked rube for "teaching" them a truth they wished to ignore. Summation...I been doing this for years, have some experience with dealing with my betters, made friends with most of them.
One thing I've noticed about you is that when you begin loosing a debate you change the subject and start posting red herrings like the above. It's too bad you aren't man enough to admit when you are wrong. It's a pattern.
#100. To: Artisan (#98)
True... People need to realize, there is a military within the military. The grunts are at the very lowest rung of the military ladder. It is they that do the bleeding and dying. Hate the military? Thats fine, I did too, while in and out. Being a grunt in my time because they could drag me away does not mean that somehow I was inferior to someone that was never in a like position. Grunts are the cannon fodder, the expendables, no one likes them, no one. Lay the vile burden of war on their shoulders, blame them for the ills of the world, that is easily done. Respect them once a year, not possible, they were and are sub human trash. Been there, we were trash brothers together, many of the brothers bled and died. Yes sir, human trash because they are at the bottom of the ladder.
you know, i really liked this article & its sentiments-
#101. To: Ada (#16) (Edited)
I don't think "best and brightest " young people would commit themselves to a vocation that primarily involves killing people. They'd find a job that makes them indispensable to the community and out of the army, even operating a farm. Here's one insider's view (Sean) of the SNAFU nature of the military: Interesting article you cite on the performance of the US military in Grenada. I don't usually comment on military matters, but as I served in the 82nd during this time I thought I'd add my $.02. I have to say that the Washington Monthly article and your commentary on the US military is spot on in every detail, except that the original plan of attack involved the Rangers parachuting in to take the runway so the 82nd could then airland its troops in, with my battalion, the 2/325 AIF, being the first one in. I did not participate in the invasion as I was on emergency leave when it happened, but I heard all the stories afterwards and they corrobarate much of what was in that article. It was amazing the number of casualties my unit experienced considering how badly outnumbered and outgunned the Cubans were. A captain and platoon sergeant from my battalion were both killed when they foolishly walked solo up a hill to try and locate the enemy...and succeeded in doing so. Our brigade HQ was hit by an A-10 strike that was called in by a lieutenant to take out a sniper resulting in one dead and and at least 11 injured—proving the old adage that there is nothing more dangerous than a 2nd Lt with a compass and a map. Despite their small number the Cubans seemed to be everywhere, and our Recon platoon alone was ambushed twice albeit with no casualties. My jeep took a bullet during one of these ambushes, and given the huge numbers of medals they handed out afterwards, I'm surprised I didn't get a Purple Heart or Bronze Star for my jeep's ordeal, even though I wasn't there. As it was, they gave Bronze Stars to all the company kiss-asses who showed up for the party, and some other medal for everyone else. I heard a lot of stories of objectionable behavior and outright war crimes just from my company alone. In one case, a Cuban prisoner was stripped bare-chested and tied face down to the hood of a jeep and driven around like a hunter's trophy. The hood of a jeep can get pretty hot even in winter let alone in the hot Caribbean sun. I heard reports of soldiers shooting cattle and stealing cars for sport, as well as blowing up houses with LAW rockets and killing fish with grenades—though some of these attacks were by request of locals hoping for compensation. In my opinion, the 82nd at that time was just a dog and pony show where incompetent and disinterested careerist officers stopped to get their tickets punched with the necessary Airborne experience needed for future promotions to field grade officer positions. We spent most of our time cleaning the barracks and picking up cigarette butts rather than training for war, and most of our officers and NCOs were utterly clueless and incompetent. That there were always cigarette butts to pick up showed the general attitude of officers and NCOs to the men, as we never dropped our own butts knowng someone else would have to pick them up. 07 November, 2010 19:23 Anonymous Sean said... Typical of this breed was one of my captains who was a West Point grad and remarkable ass-kisser even by 82nd Airborne standards (or "cheesedog" as we called them, from the practice of eating the "fromunder cheese" from under their superior's foreskins). This clown would have us run by the commanding general's headquarters during our morning PT and demand we let the general know we were there by shouting with bogus enthusiasm. We finally broke him of the habit by laughing uproariously instead. The captain was with the unit for 6 months when he requested a display of our weapons for inspection. I was a TOW anti-tank gunner in Combat Support Company which included the TOWs, 4.2 inch mortars and the Recon platoon. We lined up our TOWs "dress right dress" or in a neat row and this putz walks over to my TOW and asks his XO, "is this a TOW?" Of course, let me not spare our Air Force friends, who routinely dropped us in the trees on jumps, or Marine Corps Anglico which called in a barrage of 155mm artillery fire during a training exercise just 300 yards from their position on the very edge of a fire zone just as we were driving by in our jeeps, How none of us were killed or injured is a mystery as the explosions were close enough and loud enough to cause me ear pain for a few weeks afterwards. Based on my experience in an allegedly "elite" unit I'd have to say the US military is an overrated farce. Thank God we didn't have to say "Hooah" back in those days as I think I'd have gone postal if they forced me to mouth such a bloody moronic, mealy-mouthed affirmative. As it was our required "All the Way, Sir!" was bad enough. https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4046811478707691837&postID=5869354487024270591 07 November, 2010 https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4046811478707691837&postID=5869354487024270591
#102. To: Cynicom (#99)
And you want to talk about other peoples arrogance. LOL! I hate to tell you this but it happens quite often. Anytime someone puts you in a corner or questions your supposed/self-proclaimed wisdom. One thing for sure is that you lost this one. You lost it the minute you threw up your red herring on post 89 in order to deflect from your inability to address the supported facts I laid before you. Those facts completely contradicted the unsubstantiated bullshit that you likely made up out of thin air or took from your remembrance of a piss poor Martin Sheen movie. Once again, the information I presented to you came straight from a member of the Court Martial board. Deal with it. Get back with me when you have something other than preconceived notions and uninformed bullshit to offer.
Good heavens. Please fill me in on any debate I have ever lost. I would like an unblemished record.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#103. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#102)
What? You have no sense of humor either. Son, we may have to order a saliva test ASAP for you. Remember now, whenever you post, the olde man will be sitting there, just waiting to pounce on you. I will read your posts as always.
And you want to talk about other peoples arrogance.
#104. To: Cynicom (#99)
As I have often written on this site before, most participants here have NO clue who they read. Unfortunately, too many will identify a person's writing as exceptional in their own mind and then attack that person to bring him/her down a notch. They don't acknowledge there is something to learn in the content of that person's words. They only go for the throat to lessen the chance others don't or won't identify their shortcomings. Instead of accusing you of "posting red herrings" when you are "loosing [sic] a debate", I have chosen to read and learn from your posts. Thank you, Cyni, for all you have shared with me by way of your postings. I am a far better informed homosapien than those who choose to attack you for your superior knowledge.
Seriously...To me winning means little, I would rather learn something. And if you have ever paid attention to my postings, in an unbiased fashion, you will find that quite often I compliment posters with the grade of A+ or better.
#105. To: Cynicom (#103)
Son, we may have to order a saliva test ASAP for you. Remember now, whenever you post, the olde man will be sitting there, just waiting to pounce on you. I will read your posts as always. I graciously accept your concession.
What? You have no sense of humor either.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#106. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#102)
Such drivel will get you little more than ignorance. It is obvious that your response is ego-driven and void of intellectual content.
And you want to talk about other peoples arrogance. LOL! I hate to tell you this but it happens quite often. Anytime someone puts you in a corner or questions your supposed/self-proclaimed wisdom. One thing for sure is that you lost this one. You lost it the minute you threw up your red herring on post 89 in order to deflect from your inability to address the supported facts I laid before you. Those facts completely contradicted the unsubstantiated bullshit that you likely made up out of thin air or took from your remembrance of a piss poor Martin Sheen movie.
#107. To: Phant2000 (#104)
Instead of accusing you of "posting red herrings" when you are "loosing [sic] a debate", I have chosen to read and learn from your posts. Thank you, Cyni, for all you have shared with me by way of your postings. I am a far better informed homosapien than those who choose to attack you for your superior knowledge. He's better informed that a person who sat on the Court martial board is? LOL!.
As I have often written on this site before, most participants here have NO clue who they read. Unfortunately, too many will identify a person's writing as exceptional in their own mind and then attack that person to bring him/her down a notch. They don't acknowledge there is something to learn in the content of that person's words. They only go for the throat to lessen the chance others don't or won't identify their shortcomings.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#108. To: Phant2000 (#106)
LOL! OK Cynicom whatever you say.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#109. To: Phant2000 (#104)
thank you... Most likely in the past I have given you an A+ or two, knowing your background. Who am I to be giving out grades to my betters? Well, just a nobody that has always chosen to show proper credit and respect for the work of others. Does'nt cost me anything and I have more than likely done that for Fan as I have always read his postings. Good thing he cannot BOZO me from reading.
I compliment posters with the grade of A+ or better.
#110. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, Phant2000 (#108)
No Sir, not at all. If I had more time and energy I would look back to see if I ever gave you an A+. Being an odds person and knowing how you think, I would wager I have done so. Mind you, I will read and pick apart everything you post, finding just cause, I will pounce. Just kiddin, hehehehehehe
LOL! OK Cynicom whatever you say.
#111. To: Cynicom (#109)
Dearest Cyni ... it may not cost you anything, but if the recipient gives your grades/remarks/posts sufficient thought, it will only encourage him/her to continue reading, researching and learning. God Bless YOU and those like you. In the meantime, any of Fayek's post that may have included important information is lost on me (and others) because of the way he chose to attack you for posting your personal conclusions and/or opinions.
Who am I to be giving out grades to my betters? Well, just a nobody that has always chosen to show proper credit and respect for the work of others.
#112. To: Phant2000, all (#111) (Edited)
I really do not understand why you would state such a bold faced lie that is so easily disproved upon the very thread you make the lie on. As can easily be seen, he began attacking and insulting me on post 63 all because I had the nerve to post verifiable facts complete with links to counter his attempted revision of history.
to attack you for posting your personal conclusions and/or opinions.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#113. To: Phant2000 (#106)
Much as your comments are.
Such drivel will get you little more than ignorance. It is obvious that your response is ego-driven and void of intellectual content.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#114. To: Cynicom (#110)
Be my guest. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong.
Mind you, I will read and pick apart everything you post, finding just cause, I will pounce. Just kiddin, hehehehehehe
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
#115. To: buckeroo (#86)
I disagree. For about 50 years the UN was the US figleaf for aggression, i.e, we used the UN in Korea not the other way around. Now its NATO that has the honor--the UN having proved unreliable in the second Iraq War.
Today, America is just an arm of the UN. That picture I posted shows a coffin of at least one US soldier that was draped in a UN flag.
#116. To: Ada (#115)
Yes, of course NATO is the propaganda shield of coalition forces in Iraq; as it also is in Afghanistan. The UN was booted out of Bush's War because the Security Council was going to decide against military action based on Powell/Bush plea to the UN in 2003, prior to any attack on Iraq because of lack of evidence concerning WMD. BTW, the UN security council wasn't unreliable; they were correct. Bush turned to NATO as an attempt to garner not coalition forces... but as a propaganda method to build a case for the American publick. The rest is history about two failed wars costing the US taxpayer trillions of dollars and possibly bankrupting America.
Now its NATO that has the honor--the UN having proved unreliable in the second Iraq War.
#117. To: christine, Cynicom (#43)
Certainly not! He's a friend of yours and any friend of yours is a friend of mine. (Unless of course he places no value on my friendship in which case it is of no use to him, and the less said about it the better)
i don't think you meant Cyni here
The letter of the law is too cold and formal to have a beneficial influence on society. Whenever the tissue of life is woven of legalistic relations, there is an atmosphere of moral mediocrity, paralyzing man's noblest impulses._Solzhenitsyn
#118. To: HOUNDDAWG, Christine (#117)
I like people. Best of all are unpretentious people. People that are honest enough to display their true self, warts and all. As for Christine, I zing her regularly, BECAUSE SHE IS A FRIEND. I was most fortunate in life, that I met many people that I was able to learn from, older people, all walks of life. First I learned to keep my mouth shut, show respect and the education followed, from men among men. Example if you care to read... My oldest mentor called one evening, asked me to stop by for a drink and meet some friends from West Germany. (during the cold war) I went, there were three men and a lady. The three, my mentor and I had long in depth discussion on many things, mostly world affairs. After two hours we were discussing the West German government etc. Then and only then did my friend tell me that all three were West German government cabinet members. They had been in Washington for talks with our government, stopped here to see my mentor. I learned a great deal that evening, first hand.
(Unless of course he places no value on my friendship in which case it is of no use to him, and the less said about it the better)
#119. To: Artisan, Ada, cynicom, original_intent, christine, F.A. Hayek Fan, Phant2000 (#98)
My older half brother received a govt survivor's check from the age of 3 until he turned 18 because his dad was active duty navy when he died, and Mom married my dad. As soon as bro turned 18 he was drafted and sent to Vietnam. He actually signed up for a second tour and the psychological damage didn't manifest for years when he held a coveted slot as a Sgt in the CA National Guard. Life was good, all of his needs were met as he continued to receive govt checks, but then the nightmares started and before long he was a civilian basket case being zombie-drugged by the VA, and he couldn't hold a job. After his "final appeal" I forced the VA to reverse their decision and award him a partial disability pension, and in addition he received a token check of slightly less than $400 every January from The Agent Orange Fund, something no one in our circle even knew existed. Before he succumbed to Agent Orange related organ failure at the age of 51 he said, "If I knew then what I know now it would have been Fort Canada all the way." He was preparing to remarry his former wife in a few days when his check arrived (they divorced because of his mental problems) but he suddenly died. She had no family, no skills and no income and my brother knew he was a goner so he wanted to take care of her with a widow's pension. Because he died before the marriage she was not eligible. I did all I could to help him, including money that I could ill afford to share. After all, at 18 he was as clueless about war and international financial intrigue as I was, and because his dad was navy and he received a survivor's check he felt obligated to serve. I don't fault any young man who was drafted or even those who enlisted out of patriotism. My brother faced the hard truth, that he had killed others and too many American lives were lost or ruined for reasons that just weren't good enough. Rockefeller's oil tankers continued to move product out of Haiphong harbor during that "police action" which is at least one and perhaps the only reason why there was no declaration of war. Either Prescott Bush should have been allowed to continue profiting from his business dealings with Germany or Rockefeller should not have been allowed to move oil from Southeast Asia. They both couldn't have been dealt with properly. As for me, I'd be a great deal more prone to patriotic reflection about my brother's sacrifice if not for this mutually exclusive dichotomy.
you know, i really liked this article & its sentiments- another titled 'the troops don't protect our freedoms' has been posted here for many years, but is not so caustic. But after seeing how this article hurts many good men here, i would rethink the manner in which these ideas are expressed. out of Christian charity. because if one merely insults & alienates those who would otherwise agree with then, message is not effective.
The letter of the law is too cold and formal to have a beneficial influence on society. Whenever the tissue of life is woven of legalistic relations, there is an atmosphere of moral mediocrity, paralyzing man's noblest impulses._Solzhenitsyn
#120. To: HOUNDDAWG (#119)
that is quite a story, thanks for sharing it. i'm sorry that happened to your brother.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#121. To: Artisan (#120)
Thank you.
The letter of the law is too cold and formal to have a beneficial influence on society. Whenever the tissue of life is woven of legalistic relations, there is an atmosphere of moral mediocrity, paralyzing man's noblest impulses._Solzhenitsyn
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