The Senate on Saturday blocked a bill that would create a path to citizenship for certain illegal immigrant students who came to the United States as children, completed two years of college or military service and met other requirements including passing a criminal background check. The vote, 55-41 in favor of the bill, effectively kills the measure for this year, and its fate beyond that is uncertain.
Refuse to serve, and you will pay a price, that is reality.
I will agree that you have a point. and that the 'free-loader' label is not so bad or inaccurate in a way. but I also disagree with that label. It doesn't bother me for you to say that and given your WW2 era background it is understandable.
the wars we're in now can't be described the same as WW2 though in that nobody could imagine they are all-out knock-down world wars.
I'm not anti-American at all. the opposite instead. and I won't serve in these wars. as I said, when they come here, that is when i'll fight. 65 or younger or older. that should be good enough for you.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
in 32 Abraxas described the situation falsely. and she did so with the intention of ridicule towards me.
It is a fact that the 1986 law was crafted to protect employers who hire illegals. I've explained that many times. Abraxas said the law was made to stop illegals, to stop the employers from hiring them. this did not happen. It did not occur. Many people said it occurred. Abraxas may confuse reality with their description of it. She's so addicted to the lies that when someone tells her the truth she pretends it is a lie.
They never passed a law to punish employers for hiring illegals. They made it illegal to hire illegals, they provided for some penalties, but those provisions are dysfunctional in reality and simply don't work. I know it is impossible for cyni & abraxas to comprehend that the lawmakers might be dishonest. cyni and abraxas will believe whatever they're told by the television and whatever puppets are put up to entertain them.
the reality is that we have never tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals. Ronald reagan and the wall street journal at the time said this was a huge flaw in the law being passed. and so articles from 1986 are not on the net. abraxas blames me for that. Reagan's speeches that do not support the favored story-line are also hard to find. what else is new?
as for cyni, I don't just stick with ronald reagan. I stick with george Washington. Washington was asked where his loyalties were? He responded that his first loyalty was to god. his second loyalty was to his family. his third loyalty was to his nation. Nowhere on that list did he say he was loyal to the government.
cyni, you can be a slave to the government all you want. your choice. My view is that just because the government and some television cartoons tell us that we should go to war does not cause a good american to go to war. The wars are not in the interests of my nation, the people around me and certainly inconsistent with the truths made by god. So, I'll keep my loyalties to god, family & nation. You keep your loyalties to whoever it is that rules our government.
are abraxas and cyni so stupid as to think that merely giving amnesty will cause other new illegals not to come? Apparently so. there must be laws to cause the employers to actually be penalized for hiring illegals for the illegals to stop coming. i've explained that 100 times. we have never made those laws. In 32 abraxas described the situation falsely.
you've both fallen victim to propaganda and your brains are too stupid to even see. You sure don't mind insulting me. yet when i throw it in your face, you cannot tolerate it.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
you've both fallen victim to propaganda and your brains are too stupid to even see. You sure don't mind insulting me. yet when i throw it in your face, you cannot tolerate it.
Lets put this to its basic concept.
Whether Red is right or wrong, whether AB is right or wrong is OF NO CONSEQUENCE.
It has everything to do with social behavior.
There are those of us on this forum that try to maintain a medium of polite social intercourse. Civility costs us nothing. Those of us in that group expected such civility from Red. You have made your choice, so be it.
I spoke the simple truth without being impolite at all. I repeated myself 100 times for people who questioned. and relentlessly I was ridiculed for it. with a great deal of rudeness as well. all I did was respond by saying Abraxas is a liar. her characterization in 32 is false. we have never had laws that penalized employers for hiring illegals.
I'm not the only one who escalated. and I did not start it.
and I think you should have more respect for the truth. You want to live in your comfortable world with your propaganda and when somebody shows you that it is false you insult them.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
you're an idiot. articles from back then are not on the net. and you're the one that wants to see the info, I've already seen it.
I skimmed through what you said were first 2 paragraphs
You can't tolerate simple reality. and you can't be polite to people
and you don't have the integrity even try to go look for the info yourself.
Oh, like his speeches aren't on the Internet? Look Red, I'm sick of your insults, your sandbox shinanigans, your name calling.......
Isn't this all the same crap you "supposedly" deplored over at Robin's Nest?
No, for the umpteenth time, I'm not asking for your verbal account or your fuzzy memory account of anything. BACK UP THE CRAP YOU ARE SPEWING IN THIS THREAD WITH DOCUMENTATION!!! Can it get any clearer than that?
I posted the ENTIRE SIGNING STATEMENT which refutes your claims the Reagan wasn't attempting via this legislation to tackle the employee and employer problems.......that resulted in EPIC FAILURE.
I've already documented CLEARLY with EVIDENCE that dementia was not a factor in 1986.
Tell it to yourself Red. I've posted REAGAN'S OWN WORDS. Can't get more real than than. I've been more polite than you deserve after all of your insults and sandbox shinanigans on this thread.
I have looked up all your claims Red. Why don't you try doing the same? From the signing statement, to vids from his debate, to documentation of his dementia onset--I've PROVIDED DOCUMENTATION AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. Why don't you work on your own integrity? Perhaps, you have none.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
you're an idiot. the man characterizes the law falsely and you choose to believe that his false characterization is true.
So, you are now saying that Reagan was a liar too? And that we should not believe what he claimed to believe his own legislation would accomplish?
I've already stated he sold us the amnesty on a pile of BS. Apparently you now agree with me on this issue.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Good guys don't call others liars and idiots simply because they cannot produce any evidence or documentation to substantiate their fuzzy memory on issues.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
No, your opinion is that the dementia was impacting him in 1986, which you have offered not one iota of documentation to back your claim. The historical fact is that the dementia came on after he fell off a horse in 1989 and suffered injury to his brain. Now you think you know more than Reagan's doctors.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
we have never had laws that penalized employers for hiring illegals.
BAH....
The federal government maintains those same laws of punishment. According to the Immigration Reform and Control Act, approved by Congress in 1986, precludes states and cities from imposing any civil or criminal penalties on companies for hiring illegal immigrants. The same law, however, allows states to have their own “licensing or similar laws.” In fact that is why SB1070 is being fought vigourously by the federal government.
The problem with the federal government is that it operates just like you, Red, you don't give a damn about America's own sovereignty.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
that is correct. the link you put up and said included the speech I referred to does not include the speech I referred to. I have spent some time looking for that speech. I have found that the bulk of reagan's speeches you can get if you pay fees for. Only a few are actually available for free. and as for the one that I was interested in,it would have beenmade in very early November, 1986 immediately prior to signing the legislation. It is simply not listed even in the Reagan Library. no surprise to me. I warned you that this was likely the case.
the signing statement quote you put up is not what I was referring to. you think it significant that reagan read a statement about the bill, a statement written by others, it means nothing. You should pay attention to reagan's warning to us he made in the national tv appearance where he specifically said the legislation was faulty and needed to be changed.
You also ridiculed my memory of the 1986 wall street journal editorial that addressed that legislation. You ridiculed that I had not put up a link to it. They have no links to 1986 articles.
In all of this you've dealt with me in bad faith. For example you said you had put up documentation, but your documentation is irrelevant to the story I told.
The wall street journal specifically stated that it was well known that fraudulent documents would be made on a large scale. The wall street journal specifically stated that the law was modified on the insistence of republican leadership in the senate so that employers would not be forced to check a central database to see if the docs were real. the wsj specifically said the law would protect employers who took photo-copies of docs and if the docs merely look real the employer is in the clear. The wsj specifically said this would lead to massive new illegal immigration. I remember that article. You say I am a liar. Yet you don't put up proof. You ridicule me for not doing so, but there are no links available - because it was 1986.
I did find an article by Ed meese written in 2006 in the NYT that said the employer sanctions provisions were never enforced. meese is an establishment republican, loyal to the cause of guest workers. he was not honest, he should have said the law was faulty from the beginning.
It is a big story-line that we are supposed to believe that somehow we just can't stop employers from hiring illegals. We can. I've tried to communicate that and this has upset you. and not just you, many people at this site are upset at these simple truths I've spoken. it has upset you and them because you buy the big story-line that we're sold in the propaganda, that we just can't stop employers from hiring illegals. It is false, but you love your fables.
If we wanted a solution, then we would look to reagan's solution of amnesty combined with employer sanctions. South Carolina has proven that employer audits work.
In Arizona we've turned over 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in 3 years' time. You and many stupid idiots believe that is the best we can do. And I can put up a link (if you insist) to show that only 131 illegals were turned over by Arizona in 3 years' time. I have already put up such a link here. I have also put up a link showing that the South Carolina strategy works.
and I have personally witnessed that employers have no fear of hiring people that they know are illegal and do it every do - because there are no real penalties for doing so.
i've also put up a link showing that bush did virtually nothing to punish employers for hiring illegals and that with Obama's stepped up enforcement it is only $3 million in fines handed out in a whole year by our federal gov for hiring illegals.
There's never been any real effort to stop the illegals from coming in. plain and simple. reagan did warn us about it, I saw him. You want to call me a liar on this point because there is no video on the internet. you're very naive. lots of things get censored in history.
Reagan should have repeated this claim in his signing statement. He did not. but as I said, he had dementia and was influenced/controlled by people around him.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I posted the ENTIRE SIGNING STATEMENT which refutes your claims the Reagan wasn't attempting via this legislation to tackle the employee and employer problems.
this is an example of what I mean that you're a complete idiot dealing with me in bad faith.
first of all the legislation came from congress. The Senate leadership had a huge impact on it that they refused to let any bill through if it had real provisions for stopping employers from hiring illegals. (I'll repeat again, please read) the signing statement said there was provision in the law to punish employers for hiring illegals. that is true. but the provisions were very weak and as I've tol you, purposely flawed, reagan came on tv before that signing statement and warned about it. The signing statement does not prove that I did not see that on tv. I did.
reagan did truly want to penalize the employers. the congress did not give him the proper legislation to do it. If you want to believe the big story-line of the propaganda that somehow we just can't stop illegals, go for it - be sutpid.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
that may be true. but you are a liar and an idiot. and I said so because what you said in 32 is in bad faith, and a lie.
I'll say it again, we've never tried to stop the illegals from coming here, never had legislation to do so. only fake legislation that some stupid people were fooled by. We had massive propaganda to convince those stupid people that we tried, but we never tried.
I did find the NYT editorial by Meese that openly said there was no serious effort to keep the illegals out. if you want to find that editorial you can also. but it is obvious to the casual observer based on a preponderance of evidence that we never tried to keep them out. and Meese was the Attorney General at the time, so he should know.
You know some say we should be able to disagree politely. that is true. I don't think #32 was polite, it was mocking and ridicule. All I did after that was tell the truth in less polite fashion. But I told the truth.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
The historical fact is that the dementia came on after he fell off a horse in 1989 and suffered injury to his brain. Now you think you know more than Reagan's doctors.
thank you for explaining that to me. I think that he had dementia in 1986 when he allowed this legislation through.
I was a citizen who paid extremely close attention in 1986 because I understood them to be important historical events. and i am also guilty of being tenacious enough to remember it and tell people. but in doing this I go against the grain of the mediocre people who would prefer that I swallow the propaganda.
sorry, I'm not an idiot. Don't blame me for this.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
In fact that is why SB1070 is being fought vigourously by the federal government.
the federal government sues AZ on AZ SB 1070 because it is good psycho-drama for stupid people who like to be fooled by propaganda. I posted an article showing that the state of Arizona passed a grand total of 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in the last 3 years. that included the time prior to SB 1070. The first anti-illegal immigrant law AZ passed was 3 years ago. People were afraid of that law also and it did nothing. Now SB 1070 does nothing either. It is purposely made so that it will not do anything significant.
I've explained this about 20 times.
If you want me to explain to you exactly what SB1070 does and why it does not work, then I can do that. But I've done it so many times already. and you just keep watching your tv.
If you want to know how to stop illegals and why we're not doing it, then you actually have to use your brain and think. You have to be able to think thoughts not sanctioned by the mass media propaganda. it is virtually impossible for many Americans (buck).
and for anyone that cares - regarding amnesty - you're not going to get a bill through congress on immigration unless it includes some kind of amnesty. because that is political reality. the best you can hope for is what reagan hoped for and failed to get because Senate Republicans sabotaged the efforts. You can't let 20, 25 million people in your country and let them live there for up to 20 years and then just kick them out. The people of our country will not allow it.
The idiots under the influence of propaganda who are so opposed to amnesty in reality are paving the way for a permanent stream of guest workers. and will not succeed either at kicking the illegals out.
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
what about our schools? Some have 80 or 90% illegal immigrant children. do you think we'll kick them all out just because their parents came here illegally? We're not. our people won't stand for it. Make yourself irrelevant if you think otherwise. that is exactly where the propaganda you love puts you (by design).
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I did find the NYT editorial by Meese that openly said there was no serious effort to keep the illegals out.
You best go read 32 again. There is no insulting, no name calling, no sandbox shinanigans. It is a clear RESPONSE TO YOUR POST, Red. Are you saying your post was a lie? If so, I agree.
Why don't you refute the COMMENTARY of 32, rather than whining and sniveling and injecting personal woes and hurt widdle feelers into the discussion that are NOT IN THE CONTENT OF THE POST?
When I wrote 32, I assumed you were an adult who could participate in an adult confersation. In hind sight, I way over-estimated your discourse abilities.
Yeah, you keep spewing your opinion with no documentation expecting the lot of us to deem it credible. Well, I don't. I've refuted your fuzzy memories and opinions time and again....while you have yet to prove yourself correct even once.
I've read Meese's hindsight commentary, Red. It only proves the points I have made all along. Why don't you post it for the lot of us? Because you know it proves you wrong again.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I think that he had dementia in 1986 when he allowed this legislation through.
PROVE IT!! As you said earlier, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and thinks that it doesn't stink.
Do you have anything other than your fuzzy memories and opinions to contribute?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
PROVE IT!! A veto would have done so, but Reagan didn't opt for that and promoted every itota of that bill as a means to verify illegals in the work place and not discriminate against them.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Aw shucks, Wud. There you go making me blush again........ : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
the federal government sues AZ on AZ SB 1070 because it is good psycho-drama for stupid people who like to be fooled by propaganda.
What about Arizona's LAW Act that you and the American People forget about that is in front of the USSC beyong SB 1070? Did you conveniently forget that issue?
I posted an article showing that the state of Arizona passed a grand total of 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in the last 3 years. that included the time prior to SB 1070. The first anti-illegal immigrant law AZ passed was 3 years ago [buckeroo adds: under Janet Napolitano, the AZ LAW Act]. People were afraid of that law also and it did nothing. Now SB 1070 does nothing either. It is purposely made so that it will not do anything significant.
Why do you think the laws do nothing? I shall tell you as I am more forthright than you: the US federal government and many other groups contest those same laws and until those same laws wind through federal jurisprudence, the enacted laws are essentially suspended. Still, those same laws create remarkable changes; I was personally delighted to hear the result of Brewer's SB 1070 when thousands of illegals fled the state.
I've explained this about 20 times.
I don't mean to step on your toes, but your explanations tired and emotional rants are one-sided vehicles that portray you as a wimpy-pouty-illegal-alien-ass-licker.
If you want me to explain to you exactly what SB1070 does and why it does not work, then I can do that. But I've done it so many times already.
Oh no... please no more BS.
and you just keep watching your tv.
I don't watch the tele; I haven't since 1993......
If you want to know how to stop illegals and why we're not doing it, then you actually have to use your brain and think. You have to be able to think thoughts not sanctioned by the mass media propaganda. it is virtually impossible for many Americans (buck).
This is a classic case of your unabashed rants. You draw a number of assumptions together and then let yourself down not executing or following through with a complete idea that demonstrates your own understanding about anything.
and for anyone that cares - regarding amnesty - you're not going to get a bill through congress on immigration unless it includes some kind of amnesty.
More assumptions, pal.
because that is political reality.
ICE has been prosecuting thousands of employers since 2008 all over the nation for hiring illegals. THAT IS A REALITY. (thanks to my pals in the Minutemen)
the best you can hope for is what reagan hoped for and failed to get because Senate Republicans sabotaged the efforts. You can't let 20, 25 million people in your country and let them live there for up to 20 years and then just kick them out. The people of our country will not allow it.
Why? Because you say so?
The idiots under the influence of propaganda who are so opposed to amnesty in reality are paving the way for a permanent stream of guest workers. and will not succeed either at kicking the illegals out.
"Guest workers?" How about shooting targets.
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
More emotional ranting not sticking with the subject matter. As I said in [post#5] on this thread (when I pinged your sorry ass) you had a sad face about this DREAM Act. To use an Internet cliche, pal: you are pwned!
what about our schools? Some have 80 or 90% illegal immigrant children. do you think we'll kick them all out just because their parents came here illegally? We're not. our people won't stand for it. Make yourself irrelevant if you think otherwise. that is exactly where the propaganda you love puts you (by design).
Who cares. Kick the illegals out and their illegal anchor babies.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
#130. To: abraxas, cynicon, Flintlock, buckeroo (#126)
PROVE IT!!
I've given you all the proof I can. I recounted the speech that I saw reagan give at the time. I recounted the WSJ editorial at the time that explained this situation. those 2 documents are not available for us to view today.
but will you please prove to me that in 1986 we imposed penalties on employers for hiring illegals. In #32 you said we did the amnesty thing and the employer sanctions thing at the same time and it did not work.
I have said you are a liar in #32. We did not impose employer sanctions in 1986 as you say. and I read an editorial in the NYT yesterday written by Ed Meese in 2006, he said the government actually made no effort to stop employers from hiring illegals. He was attorney general in the late 1980's, he should know.
I have witnessed in my personal experience that today employers in Arizona were scared by the Arizona laws. They have lost this fear. and they hire illegals routinely and knowingly and they do it without any penalty at all.
I demand that you prove to me that in 1986 we imposed employer sanctions. We did not do so in 1986, we have not done so since. You are a liar to say otherwise.
I have posted on this forum an article from the Arizona republic that says in 3 years since Arizona first passed laws against illegal immigrants the state of Arizona has passed a grand total of 131 people to the federal government who were illegal immigrants.
Yet many idiots on this web site are convinced that arizona imposed employer sanction. Stupid fools think that this is evidence that employer sanctions won't work and say we need to build an elaborate wall at the border. Meanwhile dozens of tunnels exist coming under the border and illegal immigrants have actually been going through tunnels. You can't stop them with a wall. Only stupid idiots who believe anti-American republican propaganda (like you) will believe that crap.
I also posted an article on this site from the Arizona republic that shows that south carolina's strategy against illegals does work. They audit employer payrolls and systematically identify illegals. then they make the illegals leave without any criminal penalty. That is reasonable. but for you and other idiots all you want to do is perpetually bash people of immigrant background. and complain endlessly. while you vote for politicians that will bring us guest workers.
You're a dupe, you're under the influence of a propaganda scheme that fools you into supporting politicians that will bring us guest workers which is anti-american. All I've done over time is expose this and I did it politely. you could not tolerate that and became impolite. I responded in kind.
Cyni says I should apologize. I've had time to think about it. No, I won't apologize. ban me. who cares if your minds are so small and your prejudices so large.
I repeat, can you put up documentation to prove your claim in #32 that we as a nation imposed sanctions on employers in 1986. What sanctions we imposed were purposely ineffective. I've shown that over and over and over again. but because it conflicts with the propaganda you love I am hated.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
lol.....what part of your recall has no credibility don't you understand, Red?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
ICE has been prosecuting thousands of employers since 2008 all over the nation for hiring illegals. THAT IS A REALITY. (thanks to my pals in the Minutemen)
I posted an article here that said the Obama admin greatly increased enforcement through ICE on this issue. it said that in the latest year a grand total of $3 million in fines was handed out to employers at the federal level. If you want to think that is vigorous enforcement, I can only conclude you are an idiot.
You are a drunken dupe who buys a propaganda line designed to end with immigration reform that will bring us millions of legal guest workers as well as legalize the existing illegals not as US citizens, but likely as guest workers.
It is far to our advantage to have our nation populated by US citizens rather than semi-slaves such as guest workers. The illegal immigrant/guest worker systems are the same as the indentured servant/slavery systems imposed by the king of england in the 1600's. it is a system that is meant to suppress wages and bypass economic freedom that could benefit the population. It is a system that divides our country up and ruins us. it is a system that you support as fools do.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Senate PASSES BILL TO GIVE EACH ILLEGAL BEANER $1000 TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
CONGRESS MANDATES $5 MAIL-IN FINE FOR SHOOTING BEANERS
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
More emotional ranting not sticking with the subject matter.
here is an excellent example of alcohol-induced myopia.
Inherent to our conversation is the possibility of kicking out 20 million or more illegal people. Buckeroo is apparently denying this simple fact.
Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed. It should be obvious to anyone with a brain.
The best you can do is keep the new illegals out and legalize the existing ones. Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point. In building that alliance he had to oppose people in his own party who were anti-American. Unfortunately, his demented or compromised state did not facilitate that he achieve victory on this front.
there are many people on this web site who are so in love with perpetually bashing new immigrants that they will be good sheeple and stupid and facilitate that an endless stream of guest workers come in. this will make them happy as they will gather together in increasingly isolated small groups and complain.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
The mean average "Hispanic" IQ is 89. They are a drag on the economy, always will be and should be forced out.
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson
lol.....what part of your recall has no credibility don't you understand, Red?
this statement demonstrates a very excellent point. You are inherently calling me a liar in saying that my memory is faulty. and you began doing that long before I used the word 'liar' relative to you. when you first began to call me a liar which was long before this thread I was extremely polite and simply offered evidence to refute your claim that our government has been imposing penalties to employers since 1986 for hiring illegals.
I repeat, it has never been US policy or Arizona policy to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. It has always been allowed and tolerated.
Abraxas can't process reality. when a politician comes on tv and says that we are doing our best to impose penalties to employers for hiring illegals, she believes that politician and ignores all evidence.
and then cyni comes along and says I should apologize for saying 'liar'. the real priority here is that mediocrity and national suicide in service to an anti-american clique is the priority.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point.
Oh, Red, how could this be so? You were just claiming the man didn't know what the hell he was doing because in the fog of dementia.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Saying your memory isn't worth a damn and that you are a liar are two completely different things, Red.
Words have meaning. If I wanted to call you a liar I would just come out and call you a liar. I'm not one to mince words.
Your doublespeak is getting to the point of idiocy here Red. Reagan is your saint who passed the great Amnesty and deserves the credit (or blame as the case may be) for it or he is just another dishonest politician peddling the impossible. Make up your mind. You can't have it one way on one post and another on the next.
Sheesh, speaking of difficulty processing reality.......
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The mean average "Hispanic" IQ is 89. They are a drag on the economy, always will be and should be forced out.
hispanics also participate in the job market at a higher level in that a higher percentage of them have jobs. pretty foolish to think they don't contribute to the economy.
to advocate as you do that we should kick people out based on their IQ is to discredit yourself on the national stage. if it makes you happy to be irrelevant Turtle, go for it.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
WASHINGTON, May 18 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- New research from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that the cost of illegalimmigration to Arizonans is over $2.7 billion annually. This newly-released estimate includes additional areas of expenditure not included in FAIR's 2004 estimate of about $1.3 billion annual expenditures.
FAIR's research shows that K-12 education of the children of illegal aliens costs the state's taxpayers nearly half of the total fiscal burden. Other factors included in FAIR's estimate are Medicaid, SCHIP, incarceration, welfare and general government expenditures. FAIR's estimate also includes tax state revenue collected from the illegal immigrant population through property, sales and income taxes. This tax revenue represents about $143 million annually, leaving a deficit of more than a $2.7 billion.
Saying your memory isn't worth a damn and that you are a liar are two completely different things,
I will admit, there is a difference.
but the inherent argument is that as you said in 32 the US government is somehow trying to penalize employers for hiring illegals and has been since 1986 and I say that the government never even tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
now you are convinced that my memory is faulty. On what basis are you convinced of this? Are the memories of all people so faulty or is it just my memory? you demanded very rudely that I provide evidence of reagan's speech that I remember. You put up a link to his speeches and you did say that this was evidence, yet the link you put up did not include but a minority of reagan's tv appearances in the 1980's and it did not include the speech I saw in early November of 1986. You said that the signing statement was evidence that I never saw the speech I saw, yet the signing statement and the speech I saw are 2 different things.
You say that my memory of the wall street journal editorial I read is faulty. and you said that the fact that I could not produce a link proves that my memory is faulty. but 1986 articles from the WSJ are not on the internet. I'd have to go to the library and scan a pdf, then put it on the net to prove this to you. not going to do that abraxas.
Lets consider the New York Times editorial written by Ed Meese in 2006. He was Attorney General under Reagan. He said in the editorial that from the beginning of after the 1986 law was passed there was no real serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals. Would you say also that Ed Meese's memory on this point is faulty?
If his memory is faulty, then on what do you base this opinion of yours'.
Again, I ask you for evidence that the US government makes a serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
but will you please prove to me that in 1986 we imposed penalties on employers for hiring illegals.
I want to tell you that as a Minuteman (yeah I was on the border with Chris Simcox in AZ); you simply havn't paid attention to the changes that have gone on in the US government since 2006. Through the first 15 or so years since the 1986 IRCA that Reagan signed, it was largely because of lack of enforcement because the political powers that have existed, maintained no will at all for enforcement.
And so illegal immigration flourished and in a sense expanded through 2006. But since many of the Gilchrist/Simcox successful work from 2004 onward, there have been significant changes in law and enforcement.
E-verify is required now and that program is rapidly expanding from direct federal employees and contractors (and sub-contractors) to all employers that deal with the US federal government. In the end, if an employer accepts a SSN for ANY employee, that employee shall be verified through E-Verify.
Also, since ~2006 ICE has modified its earlier approach from illegal employees to employers AND employees. The fines and penalties are such that imprisonment for employers is now on the books.
And there have been a lot of successes all over the country as the federal government increases capability and capacity for enforcement.
You are simply out of date and don't keep up with the news or what is going on in America. Now, don't get me wrong .... this nation failed to handle the problem for nearly 20 years (which is always the case) but significant changes are happening.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
If his memory is faulty, then on what do you base this opinion of yours'.
Again, I ask you for evidence that the US government makes a serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
I haven't relied on my memory, Red. I've provided the signing statement for the bill which provides the evidence that the US government was "supposedly" doing something about employers hiring illegals clear back in 1986. However, the bill only made the situation WORSE, which is what I've been repeating ad nauseum all along this thread while you make lame excuses for Reagan and unsubstantiated claims base soley on your fuzzy memory and nothing else.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed. It should be obvious to anyone with a brain.
Your whinny emotional rant is annoying. I want the illegals hung by the neck after they have been dipped in hot tar and sprinkled with feathers. After that, I say kick 'em out.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Red ignores states taking action as well. Missouri, for instance, made English the official langauage and cut all state benefits for illegals in that state. Missouri has witnessed a massive decline in illegals since 2007 when the legislation was enacted.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed.
Your whinny emotional rant is annoying. I want the illegals hung by the neck after they have been dipped in hot tar and sprinkled with feathers. After that, I say kick 'em out.
lol.........say, when Ike kicked illegals out did housing prices plummet? NO!!
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point.
Oh, Red, how could this be so? You were just claiming the man didn't know what the hell he was doing because in the fog of dementia.
if you review the record today of what republican and 'conservative' journalists say about Reagan on the immigration issue, they bad-mouth Ronald Reagan. This is because Reagan wanted to create a situation where new illegal immigrants and an un-ending stream of compromised guest workers do not come here. and today's republicans and 'conservative' journalists are on a side that wants to see a permanent stream of guest workers who have a crimped legal status come here for the sake of suppressing wages. and so reagan is ridiculed for this. The controversial comment I made that first created controversy is that I said I would stick with Reagan on this point. and then you ridiculed me directly in 32 for that and spoke falsely. You said that the government has been trying since 1986 to stop illegals by penalizing employers, this is not true.
Reagan did not want to criminalize the illegals themselves or put up a wall on the border. Reagan said this, I saw him. today's republicans want to criminalize the illegals themselves thus costing US taxpayers lots of money and at the same time hold the employers blameless who hire them. it is also a completely useless enforcement system that only costs money and fails. Republicans today also want to build a wall on the border and a powerful police presence there. Ronald Reagan was opposed to this, I saw him say so. The strategy of putting the big police presence on the border only wastes money and is ineffective - because they have already demonstrated a great propensity and ability to build tunnels.
Reagan had a completely different idea, he wanted to penalize employers who hire illegals. That was a good idea, I say so because it was a good idea and would benefit us as a people. I do not say so because I think reagan was a 'saint' as abraxas describes. I said repeatedly that reagan's personal limitations resulted in failure on this issue. I did not say he 'didnt know what the hell he was doing', that is abraxas' description.
He knew what he was doing, he had many republicans who I would call the bush republicans around him that worked against him. After he left the scene the republican party was completely taken over by bush republicans who were anti-american.
I repeat what I said that was so controversial. I'll stick with reagan.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
E-verify is required now and that program is rapidly expanding from direct federal employees and contractors (and sub-contractors) to all employers that deal with the US federal government. In the end, if an employer accepts a SSN for ANY employee, that employee shall be verified through E-Verify.
my impression is that a few states do require employers to use e-verify. In Arizona it is voluntary. The federal government provides the e-verify system as a free service, but does not require that employers use it.
However, the e-verify system has become ineffective. Most illegals who pay for fake documents are able to get through the e-verify system OK.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Also, since ~2006 ICE has modified its earlier approach from illegal employees to employers AND employees. The fines and penalties are such that imprisonment for employers is now on the books.
Recently I put up an article that said the sum total quantity of fines passed out by the federal gov to employers in an entire year was $3 million. as far as jailing people, some people have been jailed in rare cases. But the norm is that employers can hire who they want. the federal gov does nothing significant to stop them.
The total number of employers that arizona has punished under its infamous laws is not even 5 employers and the punishments were token. period. I put up an article on this forum not long ago to prove that.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.