The Senate on Saturday blocked a bill that would create a path to citizenship for certain illegal immigrant students who came to the United States as children, completed two years of college or military service and met other requirements including passing a criminal background check. The vote, 55-41 in favor of the bill, effectively kills the measure for this year, and its fate beyond that is uncertain.
Right you are, buck. I haven't a clue how this bill didn't pass, but it's a wonderful surprise as it will further anger the perpetual angry base of the socialist wing of the National Party. This rebuff to the Illegal Lobby makes me berry, berry happy.
but I believe he carries a touch of Stockholm Syndrome regarding illegals :)
you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But remember, I am sticking with Ronald Reagan on this issue. Reagan believed in forgiving the illegals.
I feel that any civilized society has an obligation to the children that grow up in that society. Most illegal immigrants' children believe it or not grow up with English as their preferred language. They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American.
We allowed their parents to come here and to exist here.
But remember, I am sticking with Ronald Reagan on this issue. Reagan believed in forgiving the illegals.
They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American.
Reagan sold his amnesty as a measure to STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!! How has that worked out for this nation?
Yes, the illegal children go to our pubic schools on our tax dollars, Red. Isn't that enough of a gift to them without adding the amnesty cherry on top? Our schools are now broke with vast amounts of money spent on ESL and free lunches. How's it all working out for us, Red?
don't blame me that the US congress has passed a law that protected employers who hire illegals. that was done in 1986. Don't blame me for that. and actually don't blame ronald reagan. He did not have a vote in congress. He came before the public and told everyone that the law needed to be changed to penalize employers for hiring illegals. He told everyone that congress screwed up and it needed to be fixed. I saw Reagan's speech. Don't blame me and don't blame reagan for the failure of congress.
Reagan was actually under great pressure to sign the bill. He did not come up with the idea contrary to your implication. He was also handicapped by dementia at the time and he had people surrounding him like Bush who were deceiving him. At least he came before the public and told everyone of the problem. that is a lot more than almost anyone else did.
If we had passed the legislation that reagan asked for, then these 20-30 million illegals would not be here. So don't blame him.
Reagan was actually under great pressure to sign the bill. He did not come up with the idea contrary to your implication. He was also handicapped by dementia at the time and he had people surrounding him like Bush who were deceiving him. At least he came before the public and told everyone of the problem. that is a lot more than almost anyone else did.
Spare me Red. Reagan signed it and therefore he is responsible for it. Sheesh, just a few posts up you were cheerleading Reagan as your reason for promoting amnesty.......yet, you continually omit that it was sold as a way to END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has failed miserably.
yet, you continually omit that it was sold as a way to END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has failed miserably.
you are mistaken. Many politicians in those days and the mass media told us that the 1986 reform legislation would end illegal immigration. But Ronald Reagan was not one such person. You are a liar. Reagan said, and I saw his speech, that we needed to pass legislation to stop the new illegals from coming. he said that at the time he signed what he said was flawed legislation. Others sold the legislation as you said, reagan did not. The rest of our establishment did as you say. but reagan was the 1 rebel who told us the truth.
if people here are going to lie outright about reagan's speech on this subject and historical events, that is OK with me. I'm not going to lie about it.
Reagan stood before the nation on national tv and told them the legislation needed to be modified or else millions of illegals would come. and then abraxas blames reagan. not acceptable.
the media and other politicians besides reagan told us the legislation would keep illegals out. Reagan himself said just the opposite. Don't blame reagan for what the others did is all I'm saying.
and as far as I'm concerned abraxas called me a liar by disputing what I said about Reagan. all I did was throw the truth back at her.
It is an absolute lie and a slander against reagan to say that reagan tried to sell anyone on that legislation. He signed very reluctantly he said in a national speech and pointed out its flaws. Just because the media has a different story-line I am supposed to believe it. screw the media and all those foolish enough to idolize it.
Here are the first two paragraphs of Reagan's signing statement for the 1986 amnesty:
Statement on Signing the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986
November 6, 1986
The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 is the most comprehensive reform of our immigration laws since 1952. In the past 35 years our nation has been increasingly affected by illegal immigration. This legislation takes a major step toward meeting this challenge to our sovereignty. At the same time, it preserves and enhances the Nation's heritage of legal immigration. I am pleased to sign the bill into law.
In 1981 this administration asked the Congress to pass a comprehensive legislative package, including employer sanctions, other measures to increase enforcement of the immigration laws, and legalization. The act provides these three essential components. The employer sanctions program is the keystone and major element. It will remove the incentive for illegal immigration by eliminating the job opportunities which draw illegal aliens here. We have consistently supported a legalization program which is both generous to the alien and fair to the countless thousands of people throughout the world who seek legally to come to America. The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans.
Here's a link to the entire protest free Reagan document:
I saw reagan's speech to the nation on this subject. I remember what he said. The 1'st 2 paragraphs of that signing statement may not have been the same as the speech I saw. and it does not contradit what I saw either.
you go believe in your fables if you want.
it isn't just my memory. The wall street journal described reagan's position at the time and the conflict between him and senate republicans who were the people who insisted the employers not be punished for hiring illegals. reagan took a different stand on that point.
Only a liar paints it different.
the passages you put up have nothing to do with penalties to employers. reagan asked for such penalties. and you are a liar to characterize it otherwise.
the wall street journal at the time specifically said that both reagan and House democrats wanted penalties for employers and that they were frustrated by senate republicans. the media conveniently failed to communicate this stuff to us. and you badger me for not being steeped in the media's fables about reagan and this issue.
by disputing my version you have called me a liar, and you did it with a mocking attitude that was rude. All I have done is throw it back in your face with the truth and correctly called you a liar - which you are.
what abraxas said in 32 was mocking and ridicule. and it was also a lie. Reagan was not the one who made the legislation that let the illegals come. She said that Reagan said the legislation would stop illegals. the truth is completely the opposite. reagan came on tv, he said the legislation was very seriously flawed and that it neglected to stop illegals. he said that some were saying that it would, but that this was not true. he said this right on national tv. I can't help it if abraxas buys the propaganda. I was not the one who started the rudeness. i just refuse to tolerate it.
then abraxas put up these 1'st 2 paragraphs of a signing statement that were completely irrelevant to the question.
Reagan was far from perfect, but he was a legitimate American leader with sentiment for our country. People who slander him because they believe fables sold by an anti-American clique dominating our media I don't have much patience for. Especially when they go out of their way to be rude and insulting to me. and that is how I view #32.
People here are making the argument that it is impossible for the US government to stop employers from hiring illegals. She said that Reagan tried and failed, that is a lie. the US government has never tried to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. You are liars to say otherwise.
cyni, you said I was a free-loader and a side-liner. You fought in America's wars. i have not done so. And I am sincere in saying that I will not do so until the foreigners invade here - regardless of any draft or police action against me. that is the only time I will fight - when they invade us. you mocked my sincerity and called me a free-loader.
Forgive me for telling you, but I can't really take your requests seriously.
Our government has made no attempt to keep the illegals out. reagan warned us. He was the only one who did. I'll speak the truth for the truth's sake. too bad if you don't like it.
cyni, you said I was a free-loader and a side-liner.
Red...
Your words, you did not serve, would not serve.
That is a red flag to anyone that DID SERVE. We endured millions of free riders and side liners, WE PAID WITH OUR LIVES AND BLOOD.
It is not a bitter memory Red, it is a factual memory, there were untold free riders. Your words, you did not serve, would not serve, yet chances are you participated in this government that took the lives of a brother and untold friends.
Tell that to any one that did their turn, anyone, you will get and deserve the same response.
in using that term to describe me you are making strong judgments about something you know nothing about. and you are not my judge.
Red...
You call others liars, then refute your own words.
By willfully stating you did not and will not serve, you placed yourself in a category of Americans that few care to entertain.
The normal word is draft dodger or slacker. Both are intentionally demeaning. The terms I used are most descriptive, sideliners or free riders. For whatever reason, you refuse to serve. Usually it is religion, it does not make you a slacker, IT DOES MAKE YOU A FREE RIDER, AS YOU GET A PASS WHILE I AM OFF TO BLEED AND DIE.
Conscientious Objector???? Those are called cowards.
You brought up a subject that had NOTHING to do with calling someone a liar. A gentleman would have apologized , unless you care to be known otherwise.
Once more Red, stop evading your own words, apologize as you should.
in 32 Abraxas described the situation falsely. and she did so with the intention of ridicule towards me.
It is a fact that the 1986 law was crafted to protect employers who hire illegals. I've explained that many times. Abraxas said the law was made to stop illegals, to stop the employers from hiring them. this did not happen. It did not occur. Many people said it occurred. Abraxas may confuse reality with their description of it. She's so addicted to the lies that when someone tells her the truth she pretends it is a lie.
They never passed a law to punish employers for hiring illegals. They made it illegal to hire illegals, they provided for some penalties, but those provisions are dysfunctional in reality and simply don't work. I know it is impossible for cyni & abraxas to comprehend that the lawmakers might be dishonest. cyni and abraxas will believe whatever they're told by the television and whatever puppets are put up to entertain them.
the reality is that we have never tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals. Ronald reagan and the wall street journal at the time said this was a huge flaw in the law being passed. and so articles from 1986 are not on the net. abraxas blames me for that. Reagan's speeches that do not support the favored story-line are also hard to find. what else is new?
as for cyni, I don't just stick with ronald reagan. I stick with george Washington. Washington was asked where his loyalties were? He responded that his first loyalty was to god. his second loyalty was to his family. his third loyalty was to his nation. Nowhere on that list did he say he was loyal to the government.
cyni, you can be a slave to the government all you want. your choice. My view is that just because the government and some television cartoons tell us that we should go to war does not cause a good american to go to war. The wars are not in the interests of my nation, the people around me and certainly inconsistent with the truths made by god. So, I'll keep my loyalties to god, family & nation. You keep your loyalties to whoever it is that rules our government.
are abraxas and cyni so stupid as to think that merely giving amnesty will cause other new illegals not to come? Apparently so. there must be laws to cause the employers to actually be penalized for hiring illegals for the illegals to stop coming. i've explained that 100 times. we have never made those laws. In 32 abraxas described the situation falsely.
you've both fallen victim to propaganda and your brains are too stupid to even see. You sure don't mind insulting me. yet when i throw it in your face, you cannot tolerate it.
you've both fallen victim to propaganda and your brains are too stupid to even see. You sure don't mind insulting me. yet when i throw it in your face, you cannot tolerate it.
Lets put this to its basic concept.
Whether Red is right or wrong, whether AB is right or wrong is OF NO CONSEQUENCE.
It has everything to do with social behavior.
There are those of us on this forum that try to maintain a medium of polite social intercourse. Civility costs us nothing. Those of us in that group expected such civility from Red. You have made your choice, so be it.
I spoke the simple truth without being impolite at all. I repeated myself 100 times for people who questioned. and relentlessly I was ridiculed for it. with a great deal of rudeness as well. all I did was respond by saying Abraxas is a liar. her characterization in 32 is false. we have never had laws that penalized employers for hiring illegals.
I'm not the only one who escalated. and I did not start it.
and I think you should have more respect for the truth. You want to live in your comfortable world with your propaganda and when somebody shows you that it is false you insult them.
we have never had laws that penalized employers for hiring illegals.
BAH....
The federal government maintains those same laws of punishment. According to the Immigration Reform and Control Act, approved by Congress in 1986, precludes states and cities from imposing any civil or criminal penalties on companies for hiring illegal immigrants. The same law, however, allows states to have their own “licensing or similar laws.” In fact that is why SB1070 is being fought vigourously by the federal government.
The problem with the federal government is that it operates just like you, Red, you don't give a damn about America's own sovereignty.
In fact that is why SB1070 is being fought vigourously by the federal government.
the federal government sues AZ on AZ SB 1070 because it is good psycho-drama for stupid people who like to be fooled by propaganda. I posted an article showing that the state of Arizona passed a grand total of 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in the last 3 years. that included the time prior to SB 1070. The first anti-illegal immigrant law AZ passed was 3 years ago. People were afraid of that law also and it did nothing. Now SB 1070 does nothing either. It is purposely made so that it will not do anything significant.
I've explained this about 20 times.
If you want me to explain to you exactly what SB1070 does and why it does not work, then I can do that. But I've done it so many times already. and you just keep watching your tv.
If you want to know how to stop illegals and why we're not doing it, then you actually have to use your brain and think. You have to be able to think thoughts not sanctioned by the mass media propaganda. it is virtually impossible for many Americans (buck).
and for anyone that cares - regarding amnesty - you're not going to get a bill through congress on immigration unless it includes some kind of amnesty. because that is political reality. the best you can hope for is what reagan hoped for and failed to get because Senate Republicans sabotaged the efforts. You can't let 20, 25 million people in your country and let them live there for up to 20 years and then just kick them out. The people of our country will not allow it.
The idiots under the influence of propaganda who are so opposed to amnesty in reality are paving the way for a permanent stream of guest workers. and will not succeed either at kicking the illegals out.
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
what about our schools? Some have 80 or 90% illegal immigrant children. do you think we'll kick them all out just because their parents came here illegally? We're not. our people won't stand for it. Make yourself irrelevant if you think otherwise. that is exactly where the propaganda you love puts you (by design).
the federal government sues AZ on AZ SB 1070 because it is good psycho-drama for stupid people who like to be fooled by propaganda.
What about Arizona's LAW Act that you and the American People forget about that is in front of the USSC beyong SB 1070? Did you conveniently forget that issue?
I posted an article showing that the state of Arizona passed a grand total of 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in the last 3 years. that included the time prior to SB 1070. The first anti-illegal immigrant law AZ passed was 3 years ago [buckeroo adds: under Janet Napolitano, the AZ LAW Act]. People were afraid of that law also and it did nothing. Now SB 1070 does nothing either. It is purposely made so that it will not do anything significant.
Why do you think the laws do nothing? I shall tell you as I am more forthright than you: the US federal government and many other groups contest those same laws and until those same laws wind through federal jurisprudence, the enacted laws are essentially suspended. Still, those same laws create remarkable changes; I was personally delighted to hear the result of Brewer's SB 1070 when thousands of illegals fled the state.
I've explained this about 20 times.
I don't mean to step on your toes, but your explanations tired and emotional rants are one-sided vehicles that portray you as a wimpy-pouty-illegal-alien-ass-licker.
If you want me to explain to you exactly what SB1070 does and why it does not work, then I can do that. But I've done it so many times already.
Oh no... please no more BS.
and you just keep watching your tv.
I don't watch the tele; I haven't since 1993......
If you want to know how to stop illegals and why we're not doing it, then you actually have to use your brain and think. You have to be able to think thoughts not sanctioned by the mass media propaganda. it is virtually impossible for many Americans (buck).
This is a classic case of your unabashed rants. You draw a number of assumptions together and then let yourself down not executing or following through with a complete idea that demonstrates your own understanding about anything.
and for anyone that cares - regarding amnesty - you're not going to get a bill through congress on immigration unless it includes some kind of amnesty.
More assumptions, pal.
because that is political reality.
ICE has been prosecuting thousands of employers since 2008 all over the nation for hiring illegals. THAT IS A REALITY. (thanks to my pals in the Minutemen)
the best you can hope for is what reagan hoped for and failed to get because Senate Republicans sabotaged the efforts. You can't let 20, 25 million people in your country and let them live there for up to 20 years and then just kick them out. The people of our country will not allow it.
Why? Because you say so?
The idiots under the influence of propaganda who are so opposed to amnesty in reality are paving the way for a permanent stream of guest workers. and will not succeed either at kicking the illegals out.
"Guest workers?" How about shooting targets.
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
More emotional ranting not sticking with the subject matter. As I said in [post#5] on this thread (when I pinged your sorry ass) you had a sad face about this DREAM Act. To use an Internet cliche, pal: you are pwned!
what about our schools? Some have 80 or 90% illegal immigrant children. do you think we'll kick them all out just because their parents came here illegally? We're not. our people won't stand for it. Make yourself irrelevant if you think otherwise. that is exactly where the propaganda you love puts you (by design).
Who cares. Kick the illegals out and their illegal anchor babies.
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
More emotional ranting not sticking with the subject matter.
here is an excellent example of alcohol-induced myopia.
Inherent to our conversation is the possibility of kicking out 20 million or more illegal people. Buckeroo is apparently denying this simple fact.
Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed. It should be obvious to anyone with a brain.
The best you can do is keep the new illegals out and legalize the existing ones. Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point. In building that alliance he had to oppose people in his own party who were anti-American. Unfortunately, his demented or compromised state did not facilitate that he achieve victory on this front.
there are many people on this web site who are so in love with perpetually bashing new immigrants that they will be good sheeple and stupid and facilitate that an endless stream of guest workers come in. this will make them happy as they will gather together in increasingly isolated small groups and complain.
Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point.
Oh, Red, how could this be so? You were just claiming the man didn't know what the hell he was doing because in the fog of dementia.
if you review the record today of what republican and 'conservative' journalists say about Reagan on the immigration issue, they bad-mouth Ronald Reagan. This is because Reagan wanted to create a situation where new illegal immigrants and an un-ending stream of compromised guest workers do not come here. and today's republicans and 'conservative' journalists are on a side that wants to see a permanent stream of guest workers who have a crimped legal status come here for the sake of suppressing wages. and so reagan is ridiculed for this. The controversial comment I made that first created controversy is that I said I would stick with Reagan on this point. and then you ridiculed me directly in 32 for that and spoke falsely. You said that the government has been trying since 1986 to stop illegals by penalizing employers, this is not true.
Reagan did not want to criminalize the illegals themselves or put up a wall on the border. Reagan said this, I saw him. today's republicans want to criminalize the illegals themselves thus costing US taxpayers lots of money and at the same time hold the employers blameless who hire them. it is also a completely useless enforcement system that only costs money and fails. Republicans today also want to build a wall on the border and a powerful police presence there. Ronald Reagan was opposed to this, I saw him say so. The strategy of putting the big police presence on the border only wastes money and is ineffective - because they have already demonstrated a great propensity and ability to build tunnels.
Reagan had a completely different idea, he wanted to penalize employers who hire illegals. That was a good idea, I say so because it was a good idea and would benefit us as a people. I do not say so because I think reagan was a 'saint' as abraxas describes. I said repeatedly that reagan's personal limitations resulted in failure on this issue. I did not say he 'didnt know what the hell he was doing', that is abraxas' description.
He knew what he was doing, he had many republicans who I would call the bush republicans around him that worked against him. After he left the scene the republican party was completely taken over by bush republicans who were anti-american.
I repeat what I said that was so controversial. I'll stick with reagan.