The Senate on Saturday blocked a bill that would create a path to citizenship for certain illegal immigrant students who came to the United States as children, completed two years of college or military service and met other requirements including passing a criminal background check. The vote, 55-41 in favor of the bill, effectively kills the measure for this year, and its fate beyond that is uncertain.
Right you are, buck. I haven't a clue how this bill didn't pass, but it's a wonderful surprise as it will further anger the perpetual angry base of the socialist wing of the National Party. This rebuff to the Illegal Lobby makes me berry, berry happy.
but I believe he carries a touch of Stockholm Syndrome regarding illegals :)
you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But remember, I am sticking with Ronald Reagan on this issue. Reagan believed in forgiving the illegals.
I feel that any civilized society has an obligation to the children that grow up in that society. Most illegal immigrants' children believe it or not grow up with English as their preferred language. They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American.
We allowed their parents to come here and to exist here.
But remember, I am sticking with Ronald Reagan on this issue. Reagan believed in forgiving the illegals.
They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American.
Reagan sold his amnesty as a measure to STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!! How has that worked out for this nation?
Yes, the illegal children go to our pubic schools on our tax dollars, Red. Isn't that enough of a gift to them without adding the amnesty cherry on top? Our schools are now broke with vast amounts of money spent on ESL and free lunches. How's it all working out for us, Red?
don't blame me that the US congress has passed a law that protected employers who hire illegals. that was done in 1986. Don't blame me for that. and actually don't blame ronald reagan. He did not have a vote in congress. He came before the public and told everyone that the law needed to be changed to penalize employers for hiring illegals. He told everyone that congress screwed up and it needed to be fixed. I saw Reagan's speech. Don't blame me and don't blame reagan for the failure of congress.
Reagan was actually under great pressure to sign the bill. He did not come up with the idea contrary to your implication. He was also handicapped by dementia at the time and he had people surrounding him like Bush who were deceiving him. At least he came before the public and told everyone of the problem. that is a lot more than almost anyone else did.
If we had passed the legislation that reagan asked for, then these 20-30 million illegals would not be here. So don't blame him.
Reagan was actually under great pressure to sign the bill. He did not come up with the idea contrary to your implication. He was also handicapped by dementia at the time and he had people surrounding him like Bush who were deceiving him. At least he came before the public and told everyone of the problem. that is a lot more than almost anyone else did.
Spare me Red. Reagan signed it and therefore he is responsible for it. Sheesh, just a few posts up you were cheerleading Reagan as your reason for promoting amnesty.......yet, you continually omit that it was sold as a way to END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has failed miserably.
yet, you continually omit that it was sold as a way to END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has failed miserably.
you are mistaken. Many politicians in those days and the mass media told us that the 1986 reform legislation would end illegal immigration. But Ronald Reagan was not one such person. You are a liar. Reagan said, and I saw his speech, that we needed to pass legislation to stop the new illegals from coming. he said that at the time he signed what he said was flawed legislation. Others sold the legislation as you said, reagan did not. The rest of our establishment did as you say. but reagan was the 1 rebel who told us the truth.
if people here are going to lie outright about reagan's speech on this subject and historical events, that is OK with me. I'm not going to lie about it.
Reagan stood before the nation on national tv and told them the legislation needed to be modified or else millions of illegals would come. and then abraxas blames reagan. not acceptable.
the media and other politicians besides reagan told us the legislation would keep illegals out. Reagan himself said just the opposite. Don't blame reagan for what the others did is all I'm saying.
and as far as I'm concerned abraxas called me a liar by disputing what I said about Reagan. all I did was throw the truth back at her.
It is an absolute lie and a slander against reagan to say that reagan tried to sell anyone on that legislation. He signed very reluctantly he said in a national speech and pointed out its flaws. Just because the media has a different story-line I am supposed to believe it. screw the media and all those foolish enough to idolize it.
Here are the first two paragraphs of Reagan's signing statement for the 1986 amnesty:
Statement on Signing the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986
November 6, 1986
The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 is the most comprehensive reform of our immigration laws since 1952. In the past 35 years our nation has been increasingly affected by illegal immigration. This legislation takes a major step toward meeting this challenge to our sovereignty. At the same time, it preserves and enhances the Nation's heritage of legal immigration. I am pleased to sign the bill into law.
In 1981 this administration asked the Congress to pass a comprehensive legislative package, including employer sanctions, other measures to increase enforcement of the immigration laws, and legalization. The act provides these three essential components. The employer sanctions program is the keystone and major element. It will remove the incentive for illegal immigration by eliminating the job opportunities which draw illegal aliens here. We have consistently supported a legalization program which is both generous to the alien and fair to the countless thousands of people throughout the world who seek legally to come to America. The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans.
Here's a link to the entire protest free Reagan document:
I saw reagan's speech to the nation on this subject. I remember what he said. The 1'st 2 paragraphs of that signing statement may not have been the same as the speech I saw. and it does not contradit what I saw either.
you go believe in your fables if you want.
it isn't just my memory. The wall street journal described reagan's position at the time and the conflict between him and senate republicans who were the people who insisted the employers not be punished for hiring illegals. reagan took a different stand on that point.
Only a liar paints it different.
the passages you put up have nothing to do with penalties to employers. reagan asked for such penalties. and you are a liar to characterize it otherwise.
the wall street journal at the time specifically said that both reagan and House democrats wanted penalties for employers and that they were frustrated by senate republicans. the media conveniently failed to communicate this stuff to us. and you badger me for not being steeped in the media's fables about reagan and this issue.
by disputing my version you have called me a liar, and you did it with a mocking attitude that was rude. All I have done is throw it back in your face with the truth and correctly called you a liar - which you are.
The wall street journal described reagan's position
Only a liar paints it different.
by disputing my version you have called me a liar, and you did it with a mocking attitude that was rude.
Post the speech content, your recall lacks credibility.
Then, by all means, post the WSJ recap for the lot of us.
Oh, really? I painted Reagan's SIGNING STATEMENT. Was he a liar? Go to the link I provided and read the ENTIRE document that details Reagan's position on EVERY ASPECT OF THE BILL. How can I lie about REAGAN'S SIGNING STATEMENT? It is what it is. He said it. He signed it.
lol......your recall has proven again and again and again to lack credibility. Do I call you a liar because of this? No. But while you call other posters on fuzzy memory I simply have taken you to the mat for your own with documentation BY REAGAN that proves you are wrong.
You want to talk about rude after you called me a liar?
Then, by all means, post the WSJ recap for the lot of us.
you're an idiot. articles from back then are not on the net. and you're the one that wants to see the info, I've already seen it.
if you're asking me to verbally explain what the WSJ said about it back then, I've already done that like 10 times including in this thread.
I skimmed through what you said were first 2 paragraphs of signing statement. it was not speaking the things I saw in his speech to the nation on that subject.
I told you twice, the man had dementia.
You can't tolerate simple reality. and you can't be polite to people. You're the one who first called me a liar by mocking and ridiculing my story-line in favor of the propaganda line that our mass media sells us. and you don't have the integrity even try to go look for the info yourself. and I've explained to you twice that this info may not be available as it does go against the story- line we're supposed to believe.
its not worth taking you seriously because your mind doesn't function and you're disrespectful.
you're an idiot. articles from back then are not on the net. and you're the one that wants to see the info, I've already seen it.
I skimmed through what you said were first 2 paragraphs
You can't tolerate simple reality. and you can't be polite to people
and you don't have the integrity even try to go look for the info yourself.
Oh, like his speeches aren't on the Internet? Look Red, I'm sick of your insults, your sandbox shinanigans, your name calling.......
Isn't this all the same crap you "supposedly" deplored over at Robin's Nest?
No, for the umpteenth time, I'm not asking for your verbal account or your fuzzy memory account of anything. BACK UP THE CRAP YOU ARE SPEWING IN THIS THREAD WITH DOCUMENTATION!!! Can it get any clearer than that?
I posted the ENTIRE SIGNING STATEMENT which refutes your claims the Reagan wasn't attempting via this legislation to tackle the employee and employer problems.......that resulted in EPIC FAILURE.
I've already documented CLEARLY with EVIDENCE that dementia was not a factor in 1986.
Tell it to yourself Red. I've posted REAGAN'S OWN WORDS. Can't get more real than than. I've been more polite than you deserve after all of your insults and sandbox shinanigans on this thread.
I have looked up all your claims Red. Why don't you try doing the same? From the signing statement, to vids from his debate, to documentation of his dementia onset--I've PROVIDED DOCUMENTATION AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. Why don't you work on your own integrity? Perhaps, you have none.
I posted the ENTIRE SIGNING STATEMENT which refutes your claims the Reagan wasn't attempting via this legislation to tackle the employee and employer problems.
this is an example of what I mean that you're a complete idiot dealing with me in bad faith.
first of all the legislation came from congress. The Senate leadership had a huge impact on it that they refused to let any bill through if it had real provisions for stopping employers from hiring illegals. (I'll repeat again, please read) the signing statement said there was provision in the law to punish employers for hiring illegals. that is true. but the provisions were very weak and as I've tol you, purposely flawed, reagan came on tv before that signing statement and warned about it. The signing statement does not prove that I did not see that on tv. I did.
reagan did truly want to penalize the employers. the congress did not give him the proper legislation to do it. If you want to believe the big story-line of the propaganda that somehow we just can't stop illegals, go for it - be sutpid.
PROVE IT!! A veto would have done so, but Reagan didn't opt for that and promoted every itota of that bill as a means to verify illegals in the work place and not discriminate against them.
#130. To: abraxas, cynicon, Flintlock, buckeroo (#126)
PROVE IT!!
I've given you all the proof I can. I recounted the speech that I saw reagan give at the time. I recounted the WSJ editorial at the time that explained this situation. those 2 documents are not available for us to view today.
but will you please prove to me that in 1986 we imposed penalties on employers for hiring illegals. In #32 you said we did the amnesty thing and the employer sanctions thing at the same time and it did not work.
I have said you are a liar in #32. We did not impose employer sanctions in 1986 as you say. and I read an editorial in the NYT yesterday written by Ed Meese in 2006, he said the government actually made no effort to stop employers from hiring illegals. He was attorney general in the late 1980's, he should know.
I have witnessed in my personal experience that today employers in Arizona were scared by the Arizona laws. They have lost this fear. and they hire illegals routinely and knowingly and they do it without any penalty at all.
I demand that you prove to me that in 1986 we imposed employer sanctions. We did not do so in 1986, we have not done so since. You are a liar to say otherwise.
I have posted on this forum an article from the Arizona republic that says in 3 years since Arizona first passed laws against illegal immigrants the state of Arizona has passed a grand total of 131 people to the federal government who were illegal immigrants.
Yet many idiots on this web site are convinced that arizona imposed employer sanction. Stupid fools think that this is evidence that employer sanctions won't work and say we need to build an elaborate wall at the border. Meanwhile dozens of tunnels exist coming under the border and illegal immigrants have actually been going through tunnels. You can't stop them with a wall. Only stupid idiots who believe anti-American republican propaganda (like you) will believe that crap.
I also posted an article on this site from the Arizona republic that shows that south carolina's strategy against illegals does work. They audit employer payrolls and systematically identify illegals. then they make the illegals leave without any criminal penalty. That is reasonable. but for you and other idiots all you want to do is perpetually bash people of immigrant background. and complain endlessly. while you vote for politicians that will bring us guest workers.
You're a dupe, you're under the influence of a propaganda scheme that fools you into supporting politicians that will bring us guest workers which is anti-american. All I've done over time is expose this and I did it politely. you could not tolerate that and became impolite. I responded in kind.
Cyni says I should apologize. I've had time to think about it. No, I won't apologize. ban me. who cares if your minds are so small and your prejudices so large.
I repeat, can you put up documentation to prove your claim in #32 that we as a nation imposed sanctions on employers in 1986. What sanctions we imposed were purposely ineffective. I've shown that over and over and over again. but because it conflicts with the propaganda you love I am hated.
lol.....what part of your recall has no credibility don't you understand, Red?
this statement demonstrates a very excellent point. You are inherently calling me a liar in saying that my memory is faulty. and you began doing that long before I used the word 'liar' relative to you. when you first began to call me a liar which was long before this thread I was extremely polite and simply offered evidence to refute your claim that our government has been imposing penalties to employers since 1986 for hiring illegals.
I repeat, it has never been US policy or Arizona policy to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. It has always been allowed and tolerated.
Abraxas can't process reality. when a politician comes on tv and says that we are doing our best to impose penalties to employers for hiring illegals, she believes that politician and ignores all evidence.
and then cyni comes along and says I should apologize for saying 'liar'. the real priority here is that mediocrity and national suicide in service to an anti-american clique is the priority.
Saying your memory isn't worth a damn and that you are a liar are two completely different things, Red.
Words have meaning. If I wanted to call you a liar I would just come out and call you a liar. I'm not one to mince words.
Your doublespeak is getting to the point of idiocy here Red. Reagan is your saint who passed the great Amnesty and deserves the credit (or blame as the case may be) for it or he is just another dishonest politician peddling the impossible. Make up your mind. You can't have it one way on one post and another on the next.
Sheesh, speaking of difficulty processing reality.......
Saying your memory isn't worth a damn and that you are a liar are two completely different things,
I will admit, there is a difference.
but the inherent argument is that as you said in 32 the US government is somehow trying to penalize employers for hiring illegals and has been since 1986 and I say that the government never even tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
now you are convinced that my memory is faulty. On what basis are you convinced of this? Are the memories of all people so faulty or is it just my memory? you demanded very rudely that I provide evidence of reagan's speech that I remember. You put up a link to his speeches and you did say that this was evidence, yet the link you put up did not include but a minority of reagan's tv appearances in the 1980's and it did not include the speech I saw in early November of 1986. You said that the signing statement was evidence that I never saw the speech I saw, yet the signing statement and the speech I saw are 2 different things.
You say that my memory of the wall street journal editorial I read is faulty. and you said that the fact that I could not produce a link proves that my memory is faulty. but 1986 articles from the WSJ are not on the internet. I'd have to go to the library and scan a pdf, then put it on the net to prove this to you. not going to do that abraxas.
Lets consider the New York Times editorial written by Ed Meese in 2006. He was Attorney General under Reagan. He said in the editorial that from the beginning of after the 1986 law was passed there was no real serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals. Would you say also that Ed Meese's memory on this point is faulty?
If his memory is faulty, then on what do you base this opinion of yours'.
Again, I ask you for evidence that the US government makes a serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
If his memory is faulty, then on what do you base this opinion of yours'.
Again, I ask you for evidence that the US government makes a serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
I haven't relied on my memory, Red. I've provided the signing statement for the bill which provides the evidence that the US government was "supposedly" doing something about employers hiring illegals clear back in 1986. However, the bill only made the situation WORSE, which is what I've been repeating ad nauseum all along this thread while you make lame excuses for Reagan and unsubstantiated claims base soley on your fuzzy memory and nothing else.