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Title: Senate Blocks Bill for Illegal Immigrant Students
Source:
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URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/us/politics/19immig.html
Published: Dec 18, 2010
Author: DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Post Date: 2010-12-18 13:19:42 by Jethro Tull
Keywords: None
Views: 1437
Comments: 162
Senate Blocks Bill for Illegal Immigrant Students By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN Published: December 18, 2010 The Senate on Saturday blocked a bill that would create a path to citizenship for certain illegal immigrant students who came to the United States as children, completed two years of college or military service and met other requirements including passing a criminal background check. The vote, 55-41 in favor of the bill, effectively kills the measure for this year, and its fate beyond that is uncertain. -Snip
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#30. To: Red Jones (#28)
You might retract that Red.
well I'm not going to serve in the wars. and I think anyone that does is stupid. I advised all of my family members not to serve. some served anyway. the recent immigrants from mexico & central america as well as the others born here who are descendant from those regions have voluntarily decided not to serve in these wars in very large numbers, much more so than the whites. and the blacks have decided not to serve as well. this does not make them opposed to our society or our country.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
This is what I've been saying Red. Did they stop coming? NO!! Reagan said it would STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION (meaning those new immigrants coming). In your statement above, you have only proven exactly what I've been saying while continually failing to admit that the amnesty failed miserably as a measure to "stop the new illegals from coming" as per Reagan's statements. So, what is your circular argument here, Red?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Red... Never say never. Unless you are over 65, you just might be forced to do your share, no free riders.
Not enough of a rebel to reach for the veto pen, it would seem. Spare me the truth when you can take action.
I have always had a distinct distaste for free riders. Whether civilian or military, no free riders in life.
Red - I know that your feelings and positions on this matter are strong, but to call another member a liar is beneath you.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
why the heck should I. I saw ronald reagan's speech. she mis-characterized it. he was one leader on our public stage that warned us. He did not create the legislation. he said he opposed it while they were making it. The wall street journal said he opposed what they were doing. he signed the bill in protest. that is a fact. he did not originate the bill. Others did. A story-line was created and the media sold it to us. But the reality is that reagan did warn us on that legislation. and the media conveniently ignored that part in their story-line. Others are addicted to that story-line the media sold. I am not. I remember what Reagan said and I will not mischaracterize it just to make some liar happy. If somebody is going to mischaracterize reagan and slander him, then I don't really respect that. I do respect Ronald Reagan. Reagan explained carefully and patiently that millions of illegals would come here if we did not modify the legislation. He did that on national tv. Don't blame me for remembering that just because others believed the media story of those events. reagan was not the author of those aspects of the legislation. Senate Republicans were. Put the blame where it belongs.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Amen to that. Worse, he sold it to the people on a load of BS. Since his amnesty, tens of millions of new immigrants have come into this nation for all the freebies and hopes of another amnesty like Reagans.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I thot so too but he ignored it. Calling anyone here a liar is unforgivable. Calling a lady a liar is beyond the pale.
Operation Wetback, bump. I like Ike.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Red... Be a gentleman and apologize, other than that, you disappoint myself and many others here.
Oh, so he had no veto power? Let me make it clear for you Red: VETO=PROTEST. Talk about mischaracterizing........
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Are you referring to this? Reagan was ordered to active duty for the first time on April 18, 1942. Due to his nearsightedness, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas.[21] His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as a liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office.[22] Upon the approval of the Army Air Force (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on May 15, 1942, and was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit (officially, the "18th AAF Base Unit") in Culver City, California.[22] On January 14, 1943 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California.[22] He returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit after completing this duty and was promoted to Captain on July 22, 1943.[19] In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was re-assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit on November 14, 1944, where he remained until the end of World War II.[19] He was recommended for promotion to Major on February 2, 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year.[23] He returned to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on December 9, 1945.[23] By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the AAF.[19] - Wiki Ike was a put up deal, that was plain to see. His second go around, I voted for him for a few reasons. During the Korean thing, he said, "if elected I will go to Korea". In the military we knew what that meant, he would end the damned war. Altho the government was loaded with communists, Ike took it to the Russians in many military ways. He was never given credit for that.
if people here are going to lie outright about reagan's speech on this subject and historical events, that is OK with me. I'm not going to lie about it. Reagan stood before the nation on national tv and told them the legislation needed to be modified or else millions of illegals would come. and then abraxas blames reagan. not acceptable. the media and other politicians besides reagan told us the legislation would keep illegals out. Reagan himself said just the opposite. Don't blame reagan for what the others did is all I'm saying. and as far as I'm concerned abraxas called me a liar by disputing what I said about Reagan. all I did was throw the truth back at her. It is an absolute lie and a slander against reagan to say that reagan tried to sell anyone on that legislation. He signed very reluctantly he said in a national speech and pointed out its flaws. Just because the media has a different story-line I am supposed to believe it. screw the media and all those foolish enough to idolize it. and don't blame me if your memories are so fuzzy.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Among others... If you were someone, knew someone, or had plenty of money, you could find a hiding place. I saw a lot of it, too much. Anyone that believes the beaners will stand and fight are wrong. Some individuals, certainly, en masse it will be South of the border, whites with no leverage will Jimmy Carter north.
you served. I did not. and will not. when they invade our country, that is when I will fight, and it doesn't matter what age I am at that time. not before. and it doesn't matter what the penalties are.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I would not call anyone here that name, no one, regardless of the situation. I was raised differently perhaps.
I did not such thing and YOU KNOW IT!! You threw back EXACTLY WHAT I HAD BEEN SAYING WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING THE EPIC FAILURE IN REGARDS TO STOPPING NEW IMMIGRANTS. It's right up there on the thread and you can't deny it, Red. Reagan signed it when he could have vetoed it.....that would have been protest. He did not and therefore he is responsible for its epic failure.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
That's a blessing. We all get passionate about our view points. Sometimes more than we should. I can see a difference of opinion on Reagan's stance on the amnesty bill. Let's call this one a draw.
Red - Calling someone a liar is just so derogatory. You can post evidence to the contrary without denigrating the poster personally, can't you? Have a blessed evening.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
will not serve... I have seen others like you, side liners, free riders, participate in government, but share no blame, let others do the bleeding and dying. Right or wrong, we were forced by the government that protects you.
I like Ike. Wait a second, are you suggesting that we pack a poor, downtrodden minority into railroad cars and ship them to a Final Destination??? Where have I heard this before.... :p
__________________________________________________________ we're all entitled to our opinions. just like assholes, they can be ugly. so you would've done things different from reagan. Thats great. i don't have any confidence that you are one tenth the person that reagan was. You did not get yourself elected. reagan did. Reagan was the only public figure in 1986 who was warning us of the danger of illegal immigrants and he did that as the legislation was signed by him. that is an achievement. If you want to bad- mouth him for it, so be it. who cares. You are a person of insignificant achievements by comaprison. I'll say it again, reagan was under dementia at the time. and he was surrounded by people who were against him, likely giving him drugs that put him at a severe disadvantage. at least he had the clarity to tell the public what was wrong with that legislation. Nobody else did that. You act like Reagan was the cause of the illegal immigrants coming. The media sold you on that. It is false. if we implemented what reagan tried to sell us we would not have the illegal immigrants here. we did not do that. and yet you blamed reagan for our nation's failure. a cheap cop-out and a lie. Don't blame me that I recall exactly and precisely what happened. Those were important events. I guess I should be a mind-numbed stupid robot and believe whatever garbage the media sells. sorry, it does not compute.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
You have a fuzzy memory Red: Here are the first two paragraphs of Reagan's signing statement for the 1986 amnesty: Statement on Signing the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 November 6, 1986 The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 is the most comprehensive reform of our immigration laws since 1952. In the past 35 years our nation has been increasingly affected by illegal immigration. This legislation takes a major step toward meeting this challenge to our sovereignty. At the same time, it preserves and enhances the Nation's heritage of legal immigration. I am pleased to sign the bill into law. In 1981 this administration asked the Congress to pass a comprehensive legislative package, including employer sanctions, other measures to increase enforcement of the immigration laws, and legalization. The act provides these three essential components. The employer sanctions program is the keystone and major element. It will remove the incentive for illegal immigration by eliminating the job opportunities which draw illegal aliens here. We have consistently supported a legalization program which is both generous to the alien and fair to the countless thousands of people throughout the world who seek legally to come to America. The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans. Here's a link to the entire protest free Reagan document: "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I would not call anyone here that name, no one, regardless of the situation. I was raised differently perhaps. Not so differently from many of us. There was a time when that would have resulted in a glove across the face, and a set time for pistols to settle such an outrageous character assassination. I'm of the olde school also on this one.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Forever a stain on Lord Reagan's reign....
__________________________________________________________ Not to pile on, because I don't want to pile, but I do feel compelled to comment. Having been called a liar myself when I was simply mistaken, later admitted after I did some research, I know it does rankle. So, I always give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes people are mistaken and so it is not a lie, it is simply bad information.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
More fuzzy memory eh Red? Reagan's dementia onset is noted as 1989, not 1986. In July 1989, the Reagans took a trip to Mexico, where Reagan was thrown off a horse and taken to a hospital for tests. The Reagans returned to the U.S. and visited the Mayo Clinic where they were told President Reagan had a head concussion and a subdural hematoma, and was subsequently operated on. Doctors believe that is what hastened the onset of Alzheimer's disease, an incurable neurological disorder which ultimately causes brain cells to die, and something Reagan was diagnosed with in 1994. Read more: http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/famous- dementia.shtml#ixzz18WjKVXiT
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Amen... Of all people, Abraxas caught me in a falsehood a few days ago, she corrected me, without calling me a liar, and I acknowledged my mistake.
Amen. Don't call the poster a LIAR, just point them in the right direction to the truth. How tough is that? We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Sir Lod... Your olde age is showing, olde man. hehehehehe
I saw reagan's speech to the nation on this subject. I remember what he said. The 1'st 2 paragraphs of that signing statement may not have been the same as the speech I saw. and it does not contradit what I saw either. you go believe in your fables if you want. it isn't just my memory. The wall street journal described reagan's position at the time and the conflict between him and senate republicans who were the people who insisted the employers not be punished for hiring illegals. reagan took a different stand on that point. Only a liar paints it different. the passages you put up have nothing to do with penalties to employers. reagan asked for such penalties. and you are a liar to characterize it otherwise. the wall street journal at the time specifically said that both reagan and House democrats wanted penalties for employers and that they were frustrated by senate republicans. the media conveniently failed to communicate this stuff to us. and you badger me for not being steeped in the media's fables about reagan and this issue. by disputing my version you have called me a liar, and you did it with a mocking attitude that was rude. All I have done is throw it back in your face with the truth and correctly called you a liar - which you are.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
However, it is interesting to observe the forum ethos - as a group we resist the kind of ill will generated on El Pee. Exactly, we don't want to degenerate into an El Pee. However, it is interesting to observe the forum ethos - as a group we resist the kind of ill will generated on El Pee. That is a sign of an ethical and stout group.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
I guess I should be a mind-numbed stupid robot and believe whatever garbage the media sells. What I clearly said before and I'm happy to reiterate is that Reagan sold us a bill that he said would STOP NEW IMMIGRANTS FROM COMING INTO THE US, which by your own commentary is agreed upon. What you fail to agree to is that this premise for passing the bill was A) BS and B) AN EPIC FAILURE. Furthermore, you claim that Reagan protested the bill which COMPLETELY contradicts his signing statement. And, to justify Reagan's signing you claim he had dementia when all other sources claim the onset was in 1989, not 1986. And yes, because of Reagan's 1986 amnesty MORE ILLEGALS CAME TO THE US in hopes of amnesty.......the numbers don't lie Red. Well, the least you could do is actually provide some documentation and verification for the claims you are making and you could actually discuss the documents and evidence I have presented to the CONTRARY. It's obvious to the lot of us that your "recall" lacks credibility and in lieu of any cogent argument you would rather sling insults and call others liars while you spit on your monitor and have a little tirade.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Yes, on the one hand I'm more forgiving, and at the same time less forgiving of certain things. Strange, but true. Seems I'm moving to a Black vs. White view, with no Gray in the middle.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Calm down. Ab is a nice lady and an honorable one. I realize you disagree with her viewpoint, and that's fine, that's part of what forums are about - exchanging viewpoints, but because someone does not agree does not make them a liar. It means they have a different take on it. You both have valid points so debate the point not personalities.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
A great close to this most interesting thread. Now to Ignore Thread feature. 'night.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Comments (71 - 162) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestYou are a liar.
#31. To: Cynicom (#26)
#32. To: Red Jones (#28)
Reagan said, and I saw his speech, that we needed to pass legislation to stop the new illegals from coming
#33. To: Red Jones (#31)
well I'm not going to serve in the wars. and I think anyone that does is stupid.
#34. To: Red Jones (#28)
but reagan was the 1 rebel who told us the truth
#35. To: randge (#34)
#36. To: Red Jones (#28)
#37. To: Cynicom (#30)
#38. To: randge (#34)
Not enough of a rebel to reach for the veto pen, it would seem.
#39. To: Lod (#36)
I know that your feelings and positions on this matter are strong, but to call another member a liar is beneath you.
#40. To: abraxas, 4 (#38)
#41. To: Red Jones, abraxas, randge, Lod (#37)
#42. To: Red Jones (#37)
he signed the bill in protest.
#43. To: Cynicom (#35)
After completing fourteen home-study Army Extension Courses, Reagan enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve[18] on April 29, 1937, as a private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa.[19] He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on May 25, 1937.[20]
#44. To: Lod (#40)
I like Ike.
#45. To: Lod (#36)
#46. To: Cynicom, 4 (#39)
#47. To: randge (#43)
Are you referring to this?
#48. To: Cynicom (#33)
might be forced
#49. To: Lod (#46)
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
#50. To: Red Jones (#45)
and as far as I'm concerned abraxas called me a liar by disputing what I said about Reagan. all I did was throw the truth back at her.
#51. To: Lod, Cynicom, 4, Red Jones, abraxas, all (#46)
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
#52. To: Red Jones (#45)
#53. To: Red Jones (#48)
you served. I did not. and will not. when they invade our country, that is when I will fight
#54. To: Lod (#40)
Operation Wetback, bump.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#55. To: abraxas (#42)
so he had no veto power?
#56. To: Red Jones (#45)
and don't blame me if your memories are so fuzzy.
#57. To: Cynicom (#49)
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
#58. To: abraxas (#56)
Statement on Signing the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#59. To: Lod, Red Jones (#52)
#60. To: Red Jones (#55)
reagan was under dementia at the time. and he was surrounded by people who were against him, likely giving him drugs that put him at a severe disadvantage
#61. To: Original_IntentLod, Abraxas (#59)
So, I always give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes people are mistaken and so it is not a lie, it is simply bad information.
#62. To: Lod, 4 (#57)
There was a time when that would have resulted in a glove across the face
#63. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#59)
So, I always give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes people are mistaken and so it is not a lie, it is simply bad information.
#64. To: Lod (#63)
We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
#65. To: abraxas (#56)
#66. To: Lod (#63)
We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
#67. To: Red Jones (#55)
You act like Reagan was the cause of the illegal immigrants coming
#68. To: Cynicom, 4 (#64)
#69. To: Red Jones, abraxas (#65)
#70. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#69)
You both have valid points so debate the point not personalities.
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