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Title: Senate Blocks Bill for Illegal Immigrant Students
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URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/us/politics/19immig.html
Published: Dec 18, 2010
Author: DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Post Date: 2010-12-18 13:19:42 by Jethro Tull
Keywords: None
Views: 1211
Comments: 162
Senate Blocks Bill for Illegal Immigrant Students By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN Published: December 18, 2010 The Senate on Saturday blocked a bill that would create a path to citizenship for certain illegal immigrant students who came to the United States as children, completed two years of college or military service and met other requirements including passing a criminal background check. The vote, 55-41 in favor of the bill, effectively kills the measure for this year, and its fate beyond that is uncertain. -Snip
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#1. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
My kind of bill.
My kind of bill. Yes it would!! I would personally send one (1) beaner back with a 1k contribution!
Why on Earth does Congress consider these "freebies" during America's sunset as a global empire? Rhetorically, they have their own heads up their asses while the nation is hemorrhaging to death based upon their own doings.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Right you are, buck. I haven't a clue how this bill didn't pass, but it's a wonderful surprise as it will further anger the perpetual angry base of the socialist wing of the National Party. This rebuff to the Illegal Lobby makes me berry, berry happy.
You are not alone. However... Red Jones might have a sad face.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Red, has many fine qualities, but I believe he carries a touch of Stockholm Syndrome regarding illegals :)
you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But remember, I am sticking with Ronald Reagan on this issue. Reagan believed in forgiving the illegals. I feel that any civilized society has an obligation to the children that grow up in that society. Most illegal immigrants' children believe it or not grow up with English as their preferred language. They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American. We allowed their parents to come here and to exist here.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
No, "we" didn't. The US government did and in violation of the US Constitution and in particular, the 14th Amendment.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
DADT ends today as the "Dream Act" fails. ¡Cholos no! pero ¡maricones sí!
What you mean "we" White Man? "We" as in "We The People" have had no say in it as the Feral Government bowing to the plans of their Globalist Psychiatrist/Bankster masters opened the floodgates intentionally to destroy the culture. Nothing is done to stem the flow other than a few attempts by volunteer groups such as the Minutemen. It is an unfortunate situation, but they are not here legally, and that is the bottom line. It may seem cold hearted to you, but I simply regard it as just. If they wish to remain here some accomodation could be made, but not without a legal application in the same fashion as anyone else wishing to emigrate here.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Applying for a Green card and later citizenship is way too difficult in America. The steps take way too long and according to Red Jones need to be "short-cutted" so as to ensure America is a freedom loving nation for the whole wide world to see. Screw all those other people that wait their respective turn to enter the US legally and then take the time to apply for citizenship. And screw all the taxpayers! Illegals come first in America.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
There is the rub, Red. In doing what they have done, albeit because of decisions that their parents have made, and in asking what they are asking for, these people are cutting in line in front of a great many folks that have jumped through a great many hoops to get here in accordance with the law, and who jump through many more to get permanent residency and eventually citizenship. Immigrants who come here legally to stay and live do not poll well on the "Dream Act" or similar legislation. In fact they are strongly against it. This is one of the chief reasons that this bill failed. It was patently unfair.
you make a good point there.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
We allowed their parents to come here and to exist here. Excellent point. The problem is with the mexican gang-bangers, car-stealing, drug dealing, la raza, and all the other malcontents here. These should be shown the exit, pronto.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Apparently you also think that if Mexicans can sneak into this country they can hand that reponsibility over to Americans. They have schools in Mexico. Let them educate their own kids --- if they can. Only 41% of Los Angeles Unified School District students and 39% of Clark County (Las Vegas) kids graduated from high school last year.
MUHAHAHAHA
Our First Malcontent is the idiot from Kenya!!! He has found the "exit" on many occasions, but he keeps coming back. I wonder if someone would volunteer for the job of sending him to "secondary" upon his return from his next trip and demanding he produce his birth certificate. Otherwise, if not produced, advise him his passport looks to be a forgery and send him to Kenya!!!
This kind of legislation is precisely the reason that the Framers insisted on the natural born qualification for the office of POTUS.
They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American. Reagan sold his amnesty as a measure to STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!! How has that worked out for this nation? Yes, the illegal children go to our pubic schools on our tax dollars, Red. Isn't that enough of a gift to them without adding the amnesty cherry on top? Our schools are now broke with vast amounts of money spent on ESL and free lunches. How's it all working out for us, Red?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Think they are Americans???? When the draft arrives, watch those "Americans" swarm South of the Border.
don't blame me that the US congress has passed a law that protected employers who hire illegals. that was done in 1986. Don't blame me for that. and actually don't blame ronald reagan. He did not have a vote in congress. He came before the public and told everyone that the law needed to be changed to penalize employers for hiring illegals. He told everyone that congress screwed up and it needed to be fixed. I saw Reagan's speech. Don't blame me and don't blame reagan for the failure of congress. Reagan was actually under great pressure to sign the bill. He did not come up with the idea contrary to your implication. He was also handicapped by dementia at the time and he had people surrounding him like Bush who were deceiving him. At least he came before the public and told everyone of the problem. that is a lot more than almost anyone else did. If we had passed the legislation that reagan asked for, then these 20-30 million illegals would not be here. So don't blame him.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Okay Red. According to the Christian Science Monitor: The Center for Immigration Studies in Washington recently estimated that about one million illegal immigrants would eventually enroll in public institutions (state universities or community colleges) as a result of the DREAM Act, and that each one would receive a tuition subsidy from taxpayers of nearly $6,000 per year for a total cost of $6.2 billion a year. Why the hell should illegal alien children get $6K per year for college and NOT MY KIDS?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
black americans also are far less likely to serve in today's wars than white americans. does this mean they're not american? the wars are very evil. Don't blame the new immigrants that they're not going to serve.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Spare me Red. Reagan signed it and therefore he is responsible for it. Sheesh, just a few posts up you were cheerleading Reagan as your reason for promoting amnesty.......yet, you continually omit that it was sold as a way to END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has failed miserably.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I have not suggested that it be so. so why do you ask me? But perhaps if your children were to take the same steps they would also receive the same subsidy.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Red... Black Americans have no choice, they have no dual citizenship, they cannot run to Mexico and be a citizen. White americans will run once again to Canada and illegals will run to Mexico, count on it. The free ride on the gravy train is not free after all, the bill will come due, they will run south. Mexico took a pass in WW2 but made a fortune selling oil etc to the US. Troops to fight, sorry, just send money.
It's a subsidy for ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT CHILDREN Red......how shall my kiddies fit into that criteria? Why should We The People be expected to pay this subsidy for these children? As I already stated we have already paid about $8K per year pre student to put them through K-12 education. Isn't that enough?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
you are mistaken. Many politicians in those days and the mass media told us that the 1986 reform legislation would end illegal immigration. But Ronald Reagan was not one such person. You are a liar. Reagan said, and I saw his speech, that we needed to pass legislation to stop the new illegals from coming. he said that at the time he signed what he said was flawed legislation. Others sold the legislation as you said, reagan did not. The rest of our establishment did as you say. but reagan was the 1 rebel who told us the truth.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Yes, the undocumented keyan should by law be the very first deportee.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
You might retract that Red.
well I'm not going to serve in the wars. and I think anyone that does is stupid. I advised all of my family members not to serve. some served anyway. the recent immigrants from mexico & central america as well as the others born here who are descendant from those regions have voluntarily decided not to serve in these wars in very large numbers, much more so than the whites. and the blacks have decided not to serve as well. this does not make them opposed to our society or our country.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
This is what I've been saying Red. Did they stop coming? NO!! Reagan said it would STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION (meaning those new immigrants coming). In your statement above, you have only proven exactly what I've been saying while continually failing to admit that the amnesty failed miserably as a measure to "stop the new illegals from coming" as per Reagan's statements. So, what is your circular argument here, Red?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Red... Never say never. Unless you are over 65, you just might be forced to do your share, no free riders.
Not enough of a rebel to reach for the veto pen, it would seem. Spare me the truth when you can take action.
I have always had a distinct distaste for free riders. Whether civilian or military, no free riders in life.
Red - I know that your feelings and positions on this matter are strong, but to call another member a liar is beneath you.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
why the heck should I. I saw ronald reagan's speech. she mis-characterized it. he was one leader on our public stage that warned us. He did not create the legislation. he said he opposed it while they were making it. The wall street journal said he opposed what they were doing. he signed the bill in protest. that is a fact. he did not originate the bill. Others did. A story-line was created and the media sold it to us. But the reality is that reagan did warn us on that legislation. and the media conveniently ignored that part in their story-line. Others are addicted to that story-line the media sold. I am not. I remember what Reagan said and I will not mischaracterize it just to make some liar happy. If somebody is going to mischaracterize reagan and slander him, then I don't really respect that. I do respect Ronald Reagan. Reagan explained carefully and patiently that millions of illegals would come here if we did not modify the legislation. He did that on national tv. Don't blame me for remembering that just because others believed the media story of those events. reagan was not the author of those aspects of the legislation. Senate Republicans were. Put the blame where it belongs.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Amen to that. Worse, he sold it to the people on a load of BS. Since his amnesty, tens of millions of new immigrants have come into this nation for all the freebies and hopes of another amnesty like Reagans.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I thot so too but he ignored it. Calling anyone here a liar is unforgivable. Calling a lady a liar is beyond the pale.
Operation Wetback, bump. I like Ike.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Red... Be a gentleman and apologize, other than that, you disappoint myself and many others here.
Oh, so he had no veto power? Let me make it clear for you Red: VETO=PROTEST. Talk about mischaracterizing........
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Are you referring to this? Reagan was ordered to active duty for the first time on April 18, 1942. Due to his nearsightedness, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas.[21] His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as a liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office.[22] Upon the approval of the Army Air Force (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on May 15, 1942, and was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit (officially, the "18th AAF Base Unit") in Culver City, California.[22] On January 14, 1943 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California.[22] He returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit after completing this duty and was promoted to Captain on July 22, 1943.[19] In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was re-assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit on November 14, 1944, where he remained until the end of World War II.[19] He was recommended for promotion to Major on February 2, 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year.[23] He returned to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on December 9, 1945.[23] By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the AAF.[19] - Wiki Ike was a put up deal, that was plain to see. His second go around, I voted for him for a few reasons. During the Korean thing, he said, "if elected I will go to Korea". In the military we knew what that meant, he would end the damned war. Altho the government was loaded with communists, Ike took it to the Russians in many military ways. He was never given credit for that.
if people here are going to lie outright about reagan's speech on this subject and historical events, that is OK with me. I'm not going to lie about it. Reagan stood before the nation on national tv and told them the legislation needed to be modified or else millions of illegals would come. and then abraxas blames reagan. not acceptable. the media and other politicians besides reagan told us the legislation would keep illegals out. Reagan himself said just the opposite. Don't blame reagan for what the others did is all I'm saying. and as far as I'm concerned abraxas called me a liar by disputing what I said about Reagan. all I did was throw the truth back at her. It is an absolute lie and a slander against reagan to say that reagan tried to sell anyone on that legislation. He signed very reluctantly he said in a national speech and pointed out its flaws. Just because the media has a different story-line I am supposed to believe it. screw the media and all those foolish enough to idolize it. and don't blame me if your memories are so fuzzy.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Among others... If you were someone, knew someone, or had plenty of money, you could find a hiding place. I saw a lot of it, too much. Anyone that believes the beaners will stand and fight are wrong. Some individuals, certainly, en masse it will be South of the border, whites with no leverage will Jimmy Carter north.
you served. I did not. and will not. when they invade our country, that is when I will fight, and it doesn't matter what age I am at that time. not before. and it doesn't matter what the penalties are.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I would not call anyone here that name, no one, regardless of the situation. I was raised differently perhaps.
I did not such thing and YOU KNOW IT!! You threw back EXACTLY WHAT I HAD BEEN SAYING WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING THE EPIC FAILURE IN REGARDS TO STOPPING NEW IMMIGRANTS. It's right up there on the thread and you can't deny it, Red. Reagan signed it when he could have vetoed it.....that would have been protest. He did not and therefore he is responsible for its epic failure.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
That's a blessing. We all get passionate about our view points. Sometimes more than we should. I can see a difference of opinion on Reagan's stance on the amnesty bill. Let's call this one a draw.
Red - Calling someone a liar is just so derogatory. You can post evidence to the contrary without denigrating the poster personally, can't you? Have a blessed evening.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
will not serve... I have seen others like you, side liners, free riders, participate in government, but share no blame, let others do the bleeding and dying. Right or wrong, we were forced by the government that protects you.
I like Ike. Wait a second, are you suggesting that we pack a poor, downtrodden minority into railroad cars and ship them to a Final Destination??? Where have I heard this before.... :p
__________________________________________________________ we're all entitled to our opinions. just like assholes, they can be ugly. so you would've done things different from reagan. Thats great. i don't have any confidence that you are one tenth the person that reagan was. You did not get yourself elected. reagan did. Reagan was the only public figure in 1986 who was warning us of the danger of illegal immigrants and he did that as the legislation was signed by him. that is an achievement. If you want to bad- mouth him for it, so be it. who cares. You are a person of insignificant achievements by comaprison. I'll say it again, reagan was under dementia at the time. and he was surrounded by people who were against him, likely giving him drugs that put him at a severe disadvantage. at least he had the clarity to tell the public what was wrong with that legislation. Nobody else did that. You act like Reagan was the cause of the illegal immigrants coming. The media sold you on that. It is false. if we implemented what reagan tried to sell us we would not have the illegal immigrants here. we did not do that. and yet you blamed reagan for our nation's failure. a cheap cop-out and a lie. Don't blame me that I recall exactly and precisely what happened. Those were important events. I guess I should be a mind-numbed stupid robot and believe whatever garbage the media sells. sorry, it does not compute.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
You have a fuzzy memory Red: Here are the first two paragraphs of Reagan's signing statement for the 1986 amnesty: Statement on Signing the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 November 6, 1986 The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 is the most comprehensive reform of our immigration laws since 1952. In the past 35 years our nation has been increasingly affected by illegal immigration. This legislation takes a major step toward meeting this challenge to our sovereignty. At the same time, it preserves and enhances the Nation's heritage of legal immigration. I am pleased to sign the bill into law. In 1981 this administration asked the Congress to pass a comprehensive legislative package, including employer sanctions, other measures to increase enforcement of the immigration laws, and legalization. The act provides these three essential components. The employer sanctions program is the keystone and major element. It will remove the incentive for illegal immigration by eliminating the job opportunities which draw illegal aliens here. We have consistently supported a legalization program which is both generous to the alien and fair to the countless thousands of people throughout the world who seek legally to come to America. The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans. Here's a link to the entire protest free Reagan document: "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I would not call anyone here that name, no one, regardless of the situation. I was raised differently perhaps. Not so differently from many of us. There was a time when that would have resulted in a glove across the face, and a set time for pistols to settle such an outrageous character assassination. I'm of the olde school also on this one.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Forever a stain on Lord Reagan's reign....
__________________________________________________________ Not to pile on, because I don't want to pile, but I do feel compelled to comment. Having been called a liar myself when I was simply mistaken, later admitted after I did some research, I know it does rankle. So, I always give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes people are mistaken and so it is not a lie, it is simply bad information.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
More fuzzy memory eh Red? Reagan's dementia onset is noted as 1989, not 1986. In July 1989, the Reagans took a trip to Mexico, where Reagan was thrown off a horse and taken to a hospital for tests. The Reagans returned to the U.S. and visited the Mayo Clinic where they were told President Reagan had a head concussion and a subdural hematoma, and was subsequently operated on. Doctors believe that is what hastened the onset of Alzheimer's disease, an incurable neurological disorder which ultimately causes brain cells to die, and something Reagan was diagnosed with in 1994. Read more: http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/famous- dementia.shtml#ixzz18WjKVXiT
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Amen... Of all people, Abraxas caught me in a falsehood a few days ago, she corrected me, without calling me a liar, and I acknowledged my mistake.
Amen. Don't call the poster a LIAR, just point them in the right direction to the truth. How tough is that? We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Sir Lod... Your olde age is showing, olde man. hehehehehe
I saw reagan's speech to the nation on this subject. I remember what he said. The 1'st 2 paragraphs of that signing statement may not have been the same as the speech I saw. and it does not contradit what I saw either. you go believe in your fables if you want. it isn't just my memory. The wall street journal described reagan's position at the time and the conflict between him and senate republicans who were the people who insisted the employers not be punished for hiring illegals. reagan took a different stand on that point. Only a liar paints it different. the passages you put up have nothing to do with penalties to employers. reagan asked for such penalties. and you are a liar to characterize it otherwise. the wall street journal at the time specifically said that both reagan and House democrats wanted penalties for employers and that they were frustrated by senate republicans. the media conveniently failed to communicate this stuff to us. and you badger me for not being steeped in the media's fables about reagan and this issue. by disputing my version you have called me a liar, and you did it with a mocking attitude that was rude. All I have done is throw it back in your face with the truth and correctly called you a liar - which you are.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
However, it is interesting to observe the forum ethos - as a group we resist the kind of ill will generated on El Pee. Exactly, we don't want to degenerate into an El Pee. However, it is interesting to observe the forum ethos - as a group we resist the kind of ill will generated on El Pee. That is a sign of an ethical and stout group.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
I guess I should be a mind-numbed stupid robot and believe whatever garbage the media sells. What I clearly said before and I'm happy to reiterate is that Reagan sold us a bill that he said would STOP NEW IMMIGRANTS FROM COMING INTO THE US, which by your own commentary is agreed upon. What you fail to agree to is that this premise for passing the bill was A) BS and B) AN EPIC FAILURE. Furthermore, you claim that Reagan protested the bill which COMPLETELY contradicts his signing statement. And, to justify Reagan's signing you claim he had dementia when all other sources claim the onset was in 1989, not 1986. And yes, because of Reagan's 1986 amnesty MORE ILLEGALS CAME TO THE US in hopes of amnesty.......the numbers don't lie Red. Well, the least you could do is actually provide some documentation and verification for the claims you are making and you could actually discuss the documents and evidence I have presented to the CONTRARY. It's obvious to the lot of us that your "recall" lacks credibility and in lieu of any cogent argument you would rather sling insults and call others liars while you spit on your monitor and have a little tirade.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Yes, on the one hand I'm more forgiving, and at the same time less forgiving of certain things. Strange, but true. Seems I'm moving to a Black vs. White view, with no Gray in the middle.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Calm down. Ab is a nice lady and an honorable one. I realize you disagree with her viewpoint, and that's fine, that's part of what forums are about - exchanging viewpoints, but because someone does not agree does not make them a liar. It means they have a different take on it. You both have valid points so debate the point not personalities.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
A great close to this most interesting thread. Now to Ignore Thread feature. 'night.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
Sir Lod... Your olde age is showing, olde man. hehehehehe I don't know about you guys, but my father had some firm ideas about how a gentleman behaves toward a lady. I think it would take an act of will for me to do much more than just be coldly polite even if a woman is being an absolute bitch.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Rest well good sir.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
The wall street journal described reagan's position Only a liar paints it different. by disputing my version you have called me a liar, and you did it with a mocking attitude that was rude. Post the speech content, your recall lacks credibility. Then, by all means, post the WSJ recap for the lot of us. Oh, really? I painted Reagan's SIGNING STATEMENT. Was he a liar? Go to the link I provided and read the ENTIRE document that details Reagan's position on EVERY ASPECT OF THE BILL. How can I lie about REAGAN'S SIGNING STATEMENT? It is what it is. He said it. He signed it. lol......your recall has proven again and again and again to lack credibility. Do I call you a liar because of this? No. But while you call other posters on fuzzy memory I simply have taken you to the mat for your own with documentation BY REAGAN that proves you are wrong. You want to talk about rude after you called me a liar?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
what abraxas said in 32 was mocking and ridicule. and it was also a lie. Reagan was not the one who made the legislation that let the illegals come. She said that Reagan said the legislation would stop illegals. the truth is completely the opposite. reagan came on tv, he said the legislation was very seriously flawed and that it neglected to stop illegals. he said that some were saying that it would, but that this was not true. he said this right on national tv. I can't help it if abraxas buys the propaganda. I was not the one who started the rudeness. i just refuse to tolerate it. then abraxas put up these 1'st 2 paragraphs of a signing statement that were completely irrelevant to the question. Reagan was far from perfect, but he was a legitimate American leader with sentiment for our country. People who slander him because they believe fables sold by an anti-American clique dominating our media I don't have much patience for. Especially when they go out of their way to be rude and insulting to me. and that is how I view #32. People here are making the argument that it is impossible for the US government to stop employers from hiring illegals. She said that Reagan tried and failed, that is a lie. the US government has never tried to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. You are liars to say otherwise.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
That is very true, ones views of others does change with age, tolerance changes, forgiveness is easier, but there is a line determined by upbringing that cannot be crossed. I will say this, with age, many things are better understood, good or bad, one sees with more clarity. My one advantage in life was being born and raised on the wrong side of the tracks and with no education. Being thus, one always has a more realistic view of life than others.
Red... Forget the rhetoric, apologize to the lady, its easy, try it. Raise your stature here among men.
In her favor I do have to say it was witty. I wouldn't call it mocking. No, rather more it was sarcastic. Not that I have ever done such. No, not me. I read it as more of challenge than really an assault. If she wanted to be nasty she's quite capable of it, but she was just having fun albeit at your expense. So, just take it with a thick skin and apply Judo. Being polite does not require being a pushover.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
I can't take anything you say seriously. the media sells you on a false story and you want to blame me for not being sold the same. The 2 paragraphs you put up had nothing to do with the discussion. You've been dealing with me in bad faith. It is likely that it would be very difficult to find on the internet a speech made by reagan in 1986. or impossible. yet you demand that I do this just because you are an ignoramus with your feelings hurt over me exposing the fact that you were sold lies. the media sold a story-line on this issue - that somehow our government tried to stop illegals from coming and by magic cannot succeed. No, they never tried. I am an eye-witness to that history. who you going to believe, me or that television? big decision. I really don't care what you believe. but you should be polite to others. I do not believe you met that standard in 32 if you look at the context of the situation. If you don't believe me, then say so without rudeness and indignation or insults. If you treat me that way, then I will treat you that way - which I have done.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
and all I did was throw it back in kind whatever it was.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Oh really? The main crux of the legislation is EMPLOYMENT and ensuring there is no discrimination of illegals. THE BILL ENSURED NO ENFORCEMENT IN HIRING PRACTICES. Why don't you read it, Red? Here are the following paragraphs detailed in his signing statement: Section 102(a) of the bill adds section 274B to the Immigration and Nationality Act. This new section relates to certain kinds of discrimination in connection with employment in the United States. Section 274B(a) provides that it is an ``unfair immigration-related employment practice'' to ``discriminate against'' any individual in hiring, recruitment or referral for a fee, or discharging from employment ``because of'' such individual's national origin or -- if such individual is a United States citizen or an alien who is a lawful permanent resident, refugee admitted under INA section 207, or asylee granted asylum under section 208, and who has taken certain steps evidencing an intent to become a United States citizen -- because of such individual's citizenship status. Employers of fewer than four employees are expressly exempted from coverage. Discrimination against an ``unauthorized alien,'' as defined in section 274A(h)(3), is also not covered. Other exceptions include cases of discrimination because of national origin that are covered by title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, discrimination based on citizenship status when lawfully required under government authority, and discrimination in favor of a United States citizen over an alien if the citizen is at least ``equally qualified.'' The major purpose of section 274B is to reduce the possibility that employer sanctions will result in increased national origin and alienage discrimination and to provide a remedy if employer sanctions enforcement does have this result. Accordingly, subsection (k) provides that the section will not apply to any discrimination that takes place after a repeal of employer sanctions if this should occur. In the light of this major purpose, the Special Counsel should exercise the discretion provided under subsection (d)(1) so as to limit the investigations conducted on his own initiative to cases involving discrimination apparently caused by an employer's fear of liability under the employer sanctions program. I understand section 274B to require a ``discriminatory intent'' standard of proof: The party bringing the action must show that in the decisionmaking process the defendant's action was motivated by one of the prohibited criteria. Thus, it would be improper to use the ``disparate impact'' theory of recovery, which was developed under paragraph (2) of section 703(a) of title VII, in a line of Supreme Court cases over the last 15 years. This paragraph of title VII does not have a counterpart in section 274B. Section 274B tracks only the language of paragraph (1) of section 703(a), the basis of the ``disparate treatment'' (discriminatory intent) theory of recovery under title VII. Moreover, paragraph (d)(2) refers to ``knowing an intentional discrimination'' and ``a pattern or practice of discriminatory activity.'' The meaning of the former phrase is self-evident, while the latter is taken from the Supreme Court's disparate treatment jurisprudence and thus includes the requirement of a discriminatory intent. Thus, a facially neutral employee selection practice that is employed without discriminatory intent will be permissible under the provisions of section 274B. For example, the section does not preclude a requirement of English language skill or a minimum score on an aptitude test even if the employer cannot show a ``manifest relationship'' to the job in question or that the requirement is a ``bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that particular business or enterprise,'' so long as the practice is not a guise used to discriminate on account of national origin or citizenship status. Indeed, unless the plaintiff presents evidence that the employer has intentionally discriminated on proscribed grounds, the employer need not offer any explanation for his employee selection procedures. Section 274B(c) provides that the President shall appoint, with the advice and consent of the Senate, a Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices within the Justice Department, to serve for a term of 4 years. I understand this subsection to provide that the Special Counsel shall serve at the pleasure and with the policy guidance of the President, but for no longer than for a 4-year term (subject to reappointment by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate). In accordance with the provisions of section 274B(h) and (j)(4), a requirement to pay attorneys' fees may be imposed against nonprevailing parties -- including alleged victims or persons who file on their behalf as well as employers -- if claims or defenses are made that do not have a reasonable foundation in both law and fact. The same standard for the imposing of attorneys' fees applies to all nonprevailing parties. It is therefore expected that prevailing defendants would recover attorneys' fees in all cases for which this standard is satisfied, not merely in cases where the claim of the victim or person filing on their behalf is found to be vexatious or frivolous. The provisions of new INA section 245A(a)(4)(B) and (b)(1)(C)(ii), added by section 201(a) of the bill, state that no alien would qualify for the lawful temporary or the permanent residence status provided in that section if he or she has been convicted of any felony or three or more misdemeanors committed in the United States. New INA section 245A(d)(2) states that no alien would qualify for the lawful temporary or permanent residence status provided in that section if ``likely to become [a] public charge [ ].'' This disqualification could be waived by the Attorney General under certain circumstances. A likelihood that an applicant would become a public charge would exist, for example, if the applicant had failed to demonstrate either a history of employment in the United States of a kind that would provide sufficient means without public cash assistance for the support of the alien and his likely dependents who are not United States citizens or the possession of independent means sufficient by itself for such support for an indefinite period. New INA section 245A(a)(3) requires that an applicant for legalization establish that he has been ``continuously physically present in the United States since the date of the enactment'' but states that ``brief, casual, and innocent absences from the United States'' will not be considered a break in the required continuous physical presence. To the extent that the INS has made available a procedure by which aliens can obtain permission to depart and reenter the United States after a brief, casual, and innocent absence by establishing a prima facie case of eligibility for adjustment of status under this section, I understand section 245A(a)(3) to require that an unauthorized departure and illegal reentry will constitute a break in ``continuous physical presence.'' New INA section 210(d), added by section 302(a) of the bill, provides that an alien who is ``apprehended'' before or during the application period for adjustment of status for certain ``special agricultural workers,'' may not under certain circumstances related to the establishment of a nonfrivolous case of eligibility for such adjustment of status be excluded or deported. I understand this subsection not to authorize any alien to apply for admission to or to be admitted to the United States in order to apply for adjustment of status under this section. Aliens outside the United States may apply for adjustment of status under this section at an appropriate consular office outside the United States pursuant to the procedures established by the Attorney General, in cooperation with the Secretary of State, as provided in section 210(b)(1)(B). Section 304 of the bill establishes the Commission on Agricultural Workers, half of whose 12 members are appointed by the executive branch and half by the legislative branch. This hybrid Commission is not consistent with constitutional separation of powers. However, the Commission's role will be entirely advisory. Section 304(g) provides that upon request of the Commission's Chairman, the head of ``any department or agency of the United States'' must supply ``information necessary to enable it to carry out [the] section.'' Although I expect that the executive branch will cooperate closely with the Commission, its access to executive branch information will be limited in accordance with established principles of law, including the constitutional separation of powers. Section 601 establishes a Commission for the Study of International Migration and Cooperative Economic Development, all of whose members are appointed by the legislative branch. Section 601(d)(1) states that the access to executive branch information required under section 304(g) must be provided to this Commission also. Accordingly, the comments of the preceding paragraph are appropriate here as well. New INA section 274A(a)(5) provides that a person or entity shall be deemed in compliance with the employment verification system in the case of an individual who is referred for employment by a State employment agency if that person or entity retains documentation of such referral certifying that the agency complied with the verification system with respect to the individual referred. I understand this provision not to mandate State employment agencies to issue referral documents certifying compliance with the verification system or to impose any additional affirmative duty or obligation on the offices or personnel of such agencies. Distance has not discouraged illegal immigration to the United States from all around the globe. The problem of illegal immigration should not, therefore, be seen as a problem between the United States and its neighbors. Our objective is only to establish a reasonable, fair, orderly, and secure system of immigration into this country and not to discriminate in any way against particular nations or people. The act I am signing today is the product of one of the longest and most difficult legislative undertakings of recent memory. It has truly been a bipartisan effort, with this administration and the allies of immigration reform in the Congress, of both parties, working together to accomplish these critically important reforms. Future generations of Americans will be thankful for our efforts to humanely regain control of our borders and thereby preserve the value of one of the most sacred possessions of our people: American citizenship. Note: S. 1200, approved November 6, was assigned Public Law No. 99 - 603.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I would tend to agree with your point, however ab's got a valid point too. The President does have the power of the Veto.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
"Noun 1. liar - a person who has lied or who lies repeatedly prevaricator beguiler, cheater, deceiver, trickster, slicker, cheat - someone who leads you to believe something that is not true false witness, perjurer - a person who deliberately gives false testimony fabricator, fibber, storyteller - someone who tells lies
Here's a link to MOST of Reagan's speeches: Took me two seconds to locate.........
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
cyni, you said I was a free-loader and a side-liner. You fought in America's wars. i have not done so. And I am sincere in saying that I will not do so until the foreigners invade here - regardless of any draft or police action against me. that is the only time I will fight - when they invade us. you mocked my sincerity and called me a free-loader. Forgive me for telling you, but I can't really take your requests seriously. Our government has made no attempt to keep the illegals out. reagan warned us. He was the only one who did. I'll speak the truth for the truth's sake. too bad if you don't like it.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
What was the date, please?
congratulations. maybe you could look up the speech and see what he said. rather than make accusations you know nothing about. and I repeat again, it is not necessarilly true that you found an accurate copy of all reagan's speeches. but if you did, then you can easily look at them. Why don't you. then you can share it with me. rather than making accusations out of ignorance.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
in 1986 reagan came on tv to explain his signing of the immigration reform bill. In that speech he laid out the flaws of that legislation - that it did not penalzie employers for hiring illegals. he said the idea of giving amnesty and stopping new illegals was good. he said that the legislation failed to carry through and actually stop the new ones. He strongly recommended that legislation be passed to correct this. yet he still signed the legislation. how many times do I have to repeat the very same thing?
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Okay, I was just trying to help.
Above is Reagan promoting what he deemed necessary in regards to border security, immigration and amnesty at the POTUS debate......but he didn't produce a bill that did what he claimed was necessary. Oddly enough, he made three separate agenda speeches in 1986, beyond the State of the Nation.......but not one specifically about Amnesty. Imagine that? Perhaps this is because his SIGNING STATEMENT SAYS IT ALL, Red. Why should I "share" with you Red? I'm the only one who has contributed ANY documentation regarding this issue. All you have is "fuzzy memories" that lack credibility and have already been proven to be in err. You are outright proven wrong and your only retaliation is insults, innuendo, and tirades fit for a sandbox.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Red... Your words, you did not serve, would not serve. That is a red flag to anyone that DID SERVE. We endured millions of free riders and side liners, WE PAID WITH OUR LIVES AND BLOOD. It is not a bitter memory Red, it is a factual memory, there were untold free riders. Your words, you did not serve, would not serve, yet chances are you participated in this government that took the lives of a brother and untold friends. Tell that to any one that did their turn, anyone, you will get and deserve the same response.
On November 6, 1986, he issued the signing statement for the legislation which I have already posted in its entirety. However, Red completely IGNORES the context while relying on his fuzzy memory to refute what Reagan plainly stated.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Prune juice or orange juice. Muselix or Raisin Bran. Decisions, decisions.... :-o
__________________________________________________________ Lod aint that olde...yet. hehehehehehe
Just trying to help him along ;-)
__________________________________________________________ Dont let this get around but Mrs. Lod is trying to wean Lod off the gin bottle to the prune juice. hehehehehehe
"I supported this bill. I believe in the idea of amnesty for those that have put down roots and lived here even though some time back they may have entered illegally." Well, there are you then. There ain't much more to say.
I think part of the reaction against it is that people are just fed up. They are tired of the government not enforcing the border, and they are tired of supporting the horde. I also believe that the attitude of a lot of people was that this was the "Camel's nose". I have sympathy for the kids who have adapted and become part of this culture and feel like this is their home - that they identify with America not Mexico. I think I commented early on that an accomodation could be made, but this wasn't it.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Red's one of the good guys. So are many others that didn't or don't serve the evil elite.
we never did have a police state type border. it has always been an open border. the problem is not the border. the problem is failure to audit employers' payrolls and punish them for hiring illegals as well as make it very easy for them to screen out illegals. the e-verify system today has fallen apart in that its information is not reliable. a person can pass e-verify and still be an illegal immigrant. that happens with either sabotage or neglect of raw data. and government controls that database. ronald reagan was opposed to building a wall on the border. he said it was offensive.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
the people who want to spend a fortune on the border are the same people who want to bring in guest workers. it is a stupid thing to think that they are trying to protect us from illegals. that is what they sell us on tv. in America a few years ago there used to be local talk-radio people in Las Vegas, Phoenix & Texas who each were 100% devoted to talking about illegals. all that talk and useless too because they didn't bother to tell the people that the employers need to be punished and were not being punished for hiring illegals. you don't get all those talk radio shows focusing like that unless the people who rule are behind it. a whole industry built up to offend the new immigrants and divide us up, at the same time a purposely useless movement that can't pull its own head out of its own asshole. they advocate voting for politicians who want to bring in guest workers. and fool us into spending a ton of money on border police/walls.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
you're an idiot. articles from back then are not on the net. and you're the one that wants to see the info, I've already seen it. if you're asking me to verbally explain what the WSJ said about it back then, I've already done that like 10 times including in this thread. I skimmed through what you said were first 2 paragraphs of signing statement. it was not speaking the things I saw in his speech to the nation on that subject. I told you twice, the man had dementia. You can't tolerate simple reality. and you can't be polite to people. You're the one who first called me a liar by mocking and ridiculing my story-line in favor of the propaganda line that our mass media sells us. and you don't have the integrity even try to go look for the info yourself. and I've explained to you twice that this info may not be available as it does go against the story- line we're supposed to believe. its not worth taking you seriously because your mind doesn't function and you're disrespectful.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I looked again at that signing statement. so reagan said that the law had provisions for employer sanctions. I've explained to you that I've witnessed that employers routinely hire illegals without any penalty, that they are not afraid of hiring illegals, that they know how to do it and it does not bother them. There are no sanctions of significance and there never were. there is no real effort to stop illegals from coming here. that is reality. It doesn't matter what reagan's signing statement says. you're an idiot. the man characterizes the law falsely and you choose to believe that his false characterization is true. the man had dementia. he was easily influenced by people around him. He gave a speech saying that we needed to modify the law to penalize employers. I saw the speech. I also read in the wall street journal how it went. and I have shared that with you many times. you believe the story told by those who rule, that somehow we tried our best to keep illegals out and it didn't work. we never even tried. according to some idiot jerk I'm to be ridiculed and mocked just for seeing the truth. No, I'll be rude and disrespectful to you in kind and I will call you a liar as you did to me. only difference is, you are the real liar if you follow the context of the situation. you simply want your comfortable cocoon where you can complain and throw mud at illegals without any effect. someone that upsets tha comfortable cocoon by telling you the truth you can't tolerate.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
free-loader is your description, not mine. in using that term to describe me you are making strong judgments about something you know nothing about. and you are not my judge.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
in that list of speeches there are 3 from 1986. but none on the subject we're talking of. if you want to call me a liar and believe the man on the tv you can. reagan came on tv before he signed that bill and told of is flaws and warned, just like I said. and the wall street journal explained it too, made quite clear that millions of illegals would come here. these sources are not available on the iternet. you can't find them, I can't find them. I told you that in the beginning when you first ridiculed me for not putting them up. the legislation has provisions in it that do provide for sanctions against employers. However, these provisions are ineffective and useless (purposely so). I know that is a huge intellectual problem for someone like you with a small bigoted mind. But it means that reagan's signing statement was technically true. it also does not contradict what he'd previously said that the law was very flawed and needed to be changed. as I said, in 1986 reagan was not normal. He had dementia and people around him were able to manipulate him. but reagan said what he said and you can call me a liar all you want. I have respect for Reagan's position, he gave us a solution that was good. Bush and the other republicans completely swept his solution away and have allowed the illegals in. The democrats have failed to efectively oppose the republicans who purposely let them in. that is historical fact, not my opinion. You choose to believe the story-line of the television propaganda rather than an eye-witness. and you mock and ridicule me for not going along with your garbage.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Red... You call others liars, then refute your own words. By willfully stating you did not and will not serve, you placed yourself in a category of Americans that few care to entertain. The normal word is draft dodger or slacker. Both are intentionally demeaning. The terms I used are most descriptive, sideliners or free riders. For whatever reason, you refuse to serve. Usually it is religion, it does not make you a slacker, IT DOES MAKE YOU A FREE RIDER, AS YOU GET A PASS WHILE I AM OFF TO BLEED AND DIE. Conscientious Objector???? Those are called cowards. You brought up a subject that had NOTHING to do with calling someone a liar. A gentleman would have apologized , unless you care to be known otherwise. Once more Red, stop evading your own words, apologize as you should.
wud... If Red is one of the elite, there is not a problem. If he is one of the masses, there is a problem. He is a free rider, slacker, coward, side liner or whatever. Evil government or no, the masses ARE NEVER GIVEN A CHOICE. In an all out world war, right or wrong, such people cannot and will not be allowed to draw a pass. Refuse to serve, and you will pay a price, that is reality. I recall in WW2 when middle age men had no objections to the kids 18 being dragged off to war, then the age limit was raised up, age by age until men 39 years olde were being dragged away. Men to age 65 were forced to register for possible service, military or otherwise. My goodness, how their tune changed, let someone else serve not me. We have an evil government, no one gets a pass, no one, we all walk the walk, no free riders.
LOL What the *** **** are you talking about?
What the *** **** are you talking about? Cyni, sorry, with all due respect :D
So's Cyni and ab. Of the good guys that is.
I will agree that you have a point. and that the 'free-loader' label is not so bad or inaccurate in a way. but I also disagree with that label. It doesn't bother me for you to say that and given your WW2 era background it is understandable. the wars we're in now can't be described the same as WW2 though in that nobody could imagine they are all-out knock-down world wars. I'm not anti-American at all. the opposite instead. and I won't serve in these wars. as I said, when they come here, that is when i'll fight. 65 or younger or older. that should be good enough for you.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
in 32 Abraxas described the situation falsely. and she did so with the intention of ridicule towards me. It is a fact that the 1986 law was crafted to protect employers who hire illegals. I've explained that many times. Abraxas said the law was made to stop illegals, to stop the employers from hiring them. this did not happen. It did not occur. Many people said it occurred. Abraxas may confuse reality with their description of it. She's so addicted to the lies that when someone tells her the truth she pretends it is a lie. They never passed a law to punish employers for hiring illegals. They made it illegal to hire illegals, they provided for some penalties, but those provisions are dysfunctional in reality and simply don't work. I know it is impossible for cyni & abraxas to comprehend that the lawmakers might be dishonest. cyni and abraxas will believe whatever they're told by the television and whatever puppets are put up to entertain them. the reality is that we have never tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals. Ronald reagan and the wall street journal at the time said this was a huge flaw in the law being passed. and so articles from 1986 are not on the net. abraxas blames me for that. Reagan's speeches that do not support the favored story-line are also hard to find. what else is new? as for cyni, I don't just stick with ronald reagan. I stick with george Washington. Washington was asked where his loyalties were? He responded that his first loyalty was to god. his second loyalty was to his family. his third loyalty was to his nation. Nowhere on that list did he say he was loyal to the government. cyni, you can be a slave to the government all you want. your choice. My view is that just because the government and some television cartoons tell us that we should go to war does not cause a good american to go to war. The wars are not in the interests of my nation, the people around me and certainly inconsistent with the truths made by god. So, I'll keep my loyalties to god, family & nation. You keep your loyalties to whoever it is that rules our government. are abraxas and cyni so stupid as to think that merely giving amnesty will cause other new illegals not to come? Apparently so. there must be laws to cause the employers to actually be penalized for hiring illegals for the illegals to stop coming. i've explained that 100 times. we have never made those laws. In 32 abraxas described the situation falsely. you've both fallen victim to propaganda and your brains are too stupid to even see. You sure don't mind insulting me. yet when i throw it in your face, you cannot tolerate it.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Lets put this to its basic concept. Whether Red is right or wrong, whether AB is right or wrong is OF NO CONSEQUENCE. It has everything to do with social behavior. There are those of us on this forum that try to maintain a medium of polite social intercourse. Civility costs us nothing. Those of us in that group expected such civility from Red. You have made your choice, so be it.
I spoke the simple truth without being impolite at all. I repeated myself 100 times for people who questioned. and relentlessly I was ridiculed for it. with a great deal of rudeness as well. all I did was respond by saying Abraxas is a liar. her characterization in 32 is false. we have never had laws that penalized employers for hiring illegals. I'm not the only one who escalated. and I did not start it. and I think you should have more respect for the truth. You want to live in your comfortable world with your propaganda and when somebody shows you that it is false you insult them.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I skimmed through what you said were first 2 paragraphs You can't tolerate simple reality. and you can't be polite to people and you don't have the integrity even try to go look for the info yourself. Oh, like his speeches aren't on the Internet? Look Red, I'm sick of your insults, your sandbox shinanigans, your name calling....... Isn't this all the same crap you "supposedly" deplored over at Robin's Nest? No, for the umpteenth time, I'm not asking for your verbal account or your fuzzy memory account of anything. BACK UP THE CRAP YOU ARE SPEWING IN THIS THREAD WITH DOCUMENTATION!!! Can it get any clearer than that? I posted the ENTIRE SIGNING STATEMENT which refutes your claims the Reagan wasn't attempting via this legislation to tackle the employee and employer problems.......that resulted in EPIC FAILURE. I've already documented CLEARLY with EVIDENCE that dementia was not a factor in 1986. Tell it to yourself Red. I've posted REAGAN'S OWN WORDS. Can't get more real than than. I've been more polite than you deserve after all of your insults and sandbox shinanigans on this thread. I have looked up all your claims Red. Why don't you try doing the same? From the signing statement, to vids from his debate, to documentation of his dementia onset--I've PROVIDED DOCUMENTATION AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. Why don't you work on your own integrity? Perhaps, you have none.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
So, you are now saying that Reagan was a liar too? And that we should not believe what he claimed to believe his own legislation would accomplish? I've already stated he sold us the amnesty on a pile of BS. Apparently you now agree with me on this issue.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Good guys don't call others liars and idiots simply because they cannot produce any evidence or documentation to substantiate their fuzzy memory on issues.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
No, your opinion is that the dementia was impacting him in 1986, which you have offered not one iota of documentation to back your claim. The historical fact is that the dementia came on after he fell off a horse in 1989 and suffered injury to his brain. Now you think you know more than Reagan's doctors.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
BAH.... The federal government maintains those same laws of punishment. According to the Immigration Reform and Control Act, approved by Congress in 1986, precludes states and cities from imposing any civil or criminal penalties on companies for hiring illegal immigrants. The same law, however, allows states to have their own “licensing or similar laws.” In fact that is why SB1070 is being fought vigourously by the federal government. The problem with the federal government is that it operates just like you, Red, you don't give a damn about America's own sovereignty.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
that is correct. the link you put up and said included the speech I referred to does not include the speech I referred to. I have spent some time looking for that speech. I have found that the bulk of reagan's speeches you can get if you pay fees for. Only a few are actually available for free. and as for the one that I was interested in,it would have beenmade in very early November, 1986 immediately prior to signing the legislation. It is simply not listed even in the Reagan Library. no surprise to me. I warned you that this was likely the case. the signing statement quote you put up is not what I was referring to. you think it significant that reagan read a statement about the bill, a statement written by others, it means nothing. You should pay attention to reagan's warning to us he made in the national tv appearance where he specifically said the legislation was faulty and needed to be changed. You also ridiculed my memory of the 1986 wall street journal editorial that addressed that legislation. You ridiculed that I had not put up a link to it. They have no links to 1986 articles. In all of this you've dealt with me in bad faith. For example you said you had put up documentation, but your documentation is irrelevant to the story I told. The wall street journal specifically stated that it was well known that fraudulent documents would be made on a large scale. The wall street journal specifically stated that the law was modified on the insistence of republican leadership in the senate so that employers would not be forced to check a central database to see if the docs were real. the wsj specifically said the law would protect employers who took photo-copies of docs and if the docs merely look real the employer is in the clear. The wsj specifically said this would lead to massive new illegal immigration. I remember that article. You say I am a liar. Yet you don't put up proof. You ridicule me for not doing so, but there are no links available - because it was 1986. I did find an article by Ed meese written in 2006 in the NYT that said the employer sanctions provisions were never enforced. meese is an establishment republican, loyal to the cause of guest workers. he was not honest, he should have said the law was faulty from the beginning. It is a big story-line that we are supposed to believe that somehow we just can't stop employers from hiring illegals. We can. I've tried to communicate that and this has upset you. and not just you, many people at this site are upset at these simple truths I've spoken. it has upset you and them because you buy the big story-line that we're sold in the propaganda, that we just can't stop employers from hiring illegals. It is false, but you love your fables. If we wanted a solution, then we would look to reagan's solution of amnesty combined with employer sanctions. South Carolina has proven that employer audits work. In Arizona we've turned over 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in 3 years' time. You and many stupid idiots believe that is the best we can do. And I can put up a link (if you insist) to show that only 131 illegals were turned over by Arizona in 3 years' time. I have already put up such a link here. I have also put up a link showing that the South Carolina strategy works. and I have personally witnessed that employers have no fear of hiring people that they know are illegal and do it every do - because there are no real penalties for doing so. i've also put up a link showing that bush did virtually nothing to punish employers for hiring illegals and that with Obama's stepped up enforcement it is only $3 million in fines handed out in a whole year by our federal gov for hiring illegals. There's never been any real effort to stop the illegals from coming in. plain and simple. reagan did warn us about it, I saw him. You want to call me a liar on this point because there is no video on the internet. you're very naive. lots of things get censored in history. Reagan should have repeated this claim in his signing statement. He did not. but as I said, he had dementia and was influenced/controlled by people around him.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
this is an example of what I mean that you're a complete idiot dealing with me in bad faith. first of all the legislation came from congress. The Senate leadership had a huge impact on it that they refused to let any bill through if it had real provisions for stopping employers from hiring illegals. (I'll repeat again, please read) the signing statement said there was provision in the law to punish employers for hiring illegals. that is true. but the provisions were very weak and as I've tol you, purposely flawed, reagan came on tv before that signing statement and warned about it. The signing statement does not prove that I did not see that on tv. I did. reagan did truly want to penalize the employers. the congress did not give him the proper legislation to do it. If you want to believe the big story-line of the propaganda that somehow we just can't stop illegals, go for it - be sutpid.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
that may be true. but you are a liar and an idiot. and I said so because what you said in 32 is in bad faith, and a lie. I'll say it again, we've never tried to stop the illegals from coming here, never had legislation to do so. only fake legislation that some stupid people were fooled by. We had massive propaganda to convince those stupid people that we tried, but we never tried. I did find the NYT editorial by Meese that openly said there was no serious effort to keep the illegals out. if you want to find that editorial you can also. but it is obvious to the casual observer based on a preponderance of evidence that we never tried to keep them out. and Meese was the Attorney General at the time, so he should know. You know some say we should be able to disagree politely. that is true. I don't think #32 was polite, it was mocking and ridicule. All I did after that was tell the truth in less polite fashion. But I told the truth.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
thank you for explaining that to me. I think that he had dementia in 1986 when he allowed this legislation through. I was a citizen who paid extremely close attention in 1986 because I understood them to be important historical events. and i am also guilty of being tenacious enough to remember it and tell people. but in doing this I go against the grain of the mediocre people who would prefer that I swallow the propaganda. sorry, I'm not an idiot. Don't blame me for this.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
the federal government sues AZ on AZ SB 1070 because it is good psycho-drama for stupid people who like to be fooled by propaganda. I posted an article showing that the state of Arizona passed a grand total of 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in the last 3 years. that included the time prior to SB 1070. The first anti-illegal immigrant law AZ passed was 3 years ago. People were afraid of that law also and it did nothing. Now SB 1070 does nothing either. It is purposely made so that it will not do anything significant. I've explained this about 20 times. If you want me to explain to you exactly what SB1070 does and why it does not work, then I can do that. But I've done it so many times already. and you just keep watching your tv. If you want to know how to stop illegals and why we're not doing it, then you actually have to use your brain and think. You have to be able to think thoughts not sanctioned by the mass media propaganda. it is virtually impossible for many Americans (buck). and for anyone that cares - regarding amnesty - you're not going to get a bill through congress on immigration unless it includes some kind of amnesty. because that is political reality. the best you can hope for is what reagan hoped for and failed to get because Senate Republicans sabotaged the efforts. You can't let 20, 25 million people in your country and let them live there for up to 20 years and then just kick them out. The people of our country will not allow it. The idiots under the influence of propaganda who are so opposed to amnesty in reality are paving the way for a permanent stream of guest workers. and will not succeed either at kicking the illegals out. we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't. what about our schools? Some have 80 or 90% illegal immigrant children. do you think we'll kick them all out just because their parents came here illegally? We're not. our people won't stand for it. Make yourself irrelevant if you think otherwise. that is exactly where the propaganda you love puts you (by design).
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I did find the NYT editorial by Meese that openly said there was no serious effort to keep the illegals out. You best go read 32 again. There is no insulting, no name calling, no sandbox shinanigans. It is a clear RESPONSE TO YOUR POST, Red. Are you saying your post was a lie? If so, I agree. Why don't you refute the COMMENTARY of 32, rather than whining and sniveling and injecting personal woes and hurt widdle feelers into the discussion that are NOT IN THE CONTENT OF THE POST? When I wrote 32, I assumed you were an adult who could participate in an adult confersation. In hind sight, I way over-estimated your discourse abilities. Yeah, you keep spewing your opinion with no documentation expecting the lot of us to deem it credible. Well, I don't. I've refuted your fuzzy memories and opinions time and again....while you have yet to prove yourself correct even once. I've read Meese's hindsight commentary, Red. It only proves the points I have made all along. Why don't you post it for the lot of us? Because you know it proves you wrong again.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
PROVE IT!! As you said earlier, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and thinks that it doesn't stink. Do you have anything other than your fuzzy memories and opinions to contribute?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
PROVE IT!! A veto would have done so, but Reagan didn't opt for that and promoted every itota of that bill as a means to verify illegals in the work place and not discriminate against them.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
confersation You're so cute :)
Aw shucks, Wud. There you go making me blush again........ : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
What about Arizona's LAW Act that you and the American People forget about that is in front of the USSC beyong SB 1070? Did you conveniently forget that issue? Why do you think the laws do nothing? I shall tell you as I am more forthright than you: the US federal government and many other groups contest those same laws and until those same laws wind through federal jurisprudence, the enacted laws are essentially suspended. Still, those same laws create remarkable changes; I was personally delighted to hear the result of Brewer's SB 1070 when thousands of illegals fled the state. I don't mean to step on your toes, but your Oh no... please no more BS. I don't watch the tele; I haven't since 1993...... This is a classic case of your unabashed rants. You draw a number of assumptions together and then let yourself down not executing or following through with a complete idea that demonstrates your own understanding about anything. More assumptions, pal. ICE has been prosecuting thousands of employers since 2008 all over the nation for hiring illegals. THAT IS A REALITY. (thanks to my pals in the Minutemen) Why? Because you say so? "Guest workers?" How about shooting targets. More emotional ranting not sticking with the subject matter. As I said in [post#5] on this thread (when I pinged your sorry ass) you had a sad face about this DREAM Act. To use an Internet cliche, pal: you are pwned! Who cares. Kick the illegals out and their illegal anchor babies.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
I've given you all the proof I can. I recounted the speech that I saw reagan give at the time. I recounted the WSJ editorial at the time that explained this situation. those 2 documents are not available for us to view today. but will you please prove to me that in 1986 we imposed penalties on employers for hiring illegals. In #32 you said we did the amnesty thing and the employer sanctions thing at the same time and it did not work. I have said you are a liar in #32. We did not impose employer sanctions in 1986 as you say. and I read an editorial in the NYT yesterday written by Ed Meese in 2006, he said the government actually made no effort to stop employers from hiring illegals. He was attorney general in the late 1980's, he should know. I have witnessed in my personal experience that today employers in Arizona were scared by the Arizona laws. They have lost this fear. and they hire illegals routinely and knowingly and they do it without any penalty at all. I demand that you prove to me that in 1986 we imposed employer sanctions. We did not do so in 1986, we have not done so since. You are a liar to say otherwise. I have posted on this forum an article from the Arizona republic that says in 3 years since Arizona first passed laws against illegal immigrants the state of Arizona has passed a grand total of 131 people to the federal government who were illegal immigrants. Yet many idiots on this web site are convinced that arizona imposed employer sanction. Stupid fools think that this is evidence that employer sanctions won't work and say we need to build an elaborate wall at the border. Meanwhile dozens of tunnels exist coming under the border and illegal immigrants have actually been going through tunnels. You can't stop them with a wall. Only stupid idiots who believe anti-American republican propaganda (like you) will believe that crap. I also posted an article on this site from the Arizona republic that shows that south carolina's strategy against illegals does work. They audit employer payrolls and systematically identify illegals. then they make the illegals leave without any criminal penalty. That is reasonable. but for you and other idiots all you want to do is perpetually bash people of immigrant background. and complain endlessly. while you vote for politicians that will bring us guest workers. You're a dupe, you're under the influence of a propaganda scheme that fools you into supporting politicians that will bring us guest workers which is anti-american. All I've done over time is expose this and I did it politely. you could not tolerate that and became impolite. I responded in kind. Cyni says I should apologize. I've had time to think about it. No, I won't apologize. ban me. who cares if your minds are so small and your prejudices so large. I repeat, can you put up documentation to prove your claim in #32 that we as a nation imposed sanctions on employers in 1986. What sanctions we imposed were purposely ineffective. I've shown that over and over and over again. but because it conflicts with the propaganda you love I am hated.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
lol.....what part of your recall has no credibility don't you understand, Red?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I posted an article here that said the Obama admin greatly increased enforcement through ICE on this issue. it said that in the latest year a grand total of $3 million in fines was handed out to employers at the federal level. If you want to think that is vigorous enforcement, I can only conclude you are an idiot. You are a drunken dupe who buys a propaganda line designed to end with immigration reform that will bring us millions of legal guest workers as well as legalize the existing illegals not as US citizens, but likely as guest workers. It is far to our advantage to have our nation populated by US citizens rather than semi-slaves such as guest workers. The illegal immigrant/guest worker systems are the same as the indentured servant/slavery systems imposed by the king of england in the 1600's. it is a system that is meant to suppress wages and bypass economic freedom that could benefit the population. It is a system that divides our country up and ruins us. it is a system that you support as fools do.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
CONGRESS MANDATES $5 MAIL-IN FINE FOR SHOOTING BEANERS
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson
More emotional ranting not sticking with the subject matter. here is an excellent example of alcohol-induced myopia. Inherent to our conversation is the possibility of kicking out 20 million or more illegal people. Buckeroo is apparently denying this simple fact. Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed. It should be obvious to anyone with a brain. The best you can do is keep the new illegals out and legalize the existing ones. Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point. In building that alliance he had to oppose people in his own party who were anti-American. Unfortunately, his demented or compromised state did not facilitate that he achieve victory on this front. there are many people on this web site who are so in love with perpetually bashing new immigrants that they will be good sheeple and stupid and facilitate that an endless stream of guest workers come in. this will make them happy as they will gather together in increasingly isolated small groups and complain.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
The mean average "Hispanic" IQ is 89. They are a drag on the economy, always will be and should be forced out.
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson
this statement demonstrates a very excellent point. You are inherently calling me a liar in saying that my memory is faulty. and you began doing that long before I used the word 'liar' relative to you. when you first began to call me a liar which was long before this thread I was extremely polite and simply offered evidence to refute your claim that our government has been imposing penalties to employers since 1986 for hiring illegals. I repeat, it has never been US policy or Arizona policy to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. It has always been allowed and tolerated. Abraxas can't process reality. when a politician comes on tv and says that we are doing our best to impose penalties to employers for hiring illegals, she believes that politician and ignores all evidence. and then cyni comes along and says I should apologize for saying 'liar'. the real priority here is that mediocrity and national suicide in service to an anti-american clique is the priority.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Oh, Red, how could this be so? You were just claiming the man didn't know what the hell he was doing because in the fog of dementia.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Saying your memory isn't worth a damn and that you are a liar are two completely different things, Red. Words have meaning. If I wanted to call you a liar I would just come out and call you a liar. I'm not one to mince words. Your doublespeak is getting to the point of idiocy here Red. Reagan is your saint who passed the great Amnesty and deserves the credit (or blame as the case may be) for it or he is just another dishonest politician peddling the impossible. Make up your mind. You can't have it one way on one post and another on the next. Sheesh, speaking of difficulty processing reality.......
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
hispanics also participate in the job market at a higher level in that a higher percentage of them have jobs. pretty foolish to think they don't contribute to the economy. to advocate as you do that we should kick people out based on their IQ is to discredit yourself on the national stage. if it makes you happy to be irrelevant Turtle, go for it.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
WASHINGTON, May 18 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- New research from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that the cost of illegal immigration to Arizonans is over $2.7 billion annually. This newly-released estimate includes additional areas of expenditure not included in FAIR's 2004 estimate of about $1.3 billion annual expenditures. FAIR's research shows that K-12 education of the children of illegal aliens costs the state's taxpayers nearly half of the total fiscal burden. Other factors included in FAIR's estimate are Medicaid, SCHIP, incarceration, welfare and general government expenditures. FAIR's estimate also includes tax state revenue collected from the illegal immigrant population through property, sales and income taxes. This tax revenue represents about $143 million annually, leaving a deficit of more than a $2.7 billion. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20100518/DC07244) Fiscal Costs in Millions K-12 education__ $1,390.5__ LEP education__ $279.6__ Medicaid__ $259.8__ SCHIP+__ $335.0__ Justice__ $339.7__ Welfare+__ $85.5__ General__ $155.4__ Total Costs__ $2,845.6__Fiscal Revenues in Millions Property Tax__ $53.0__ Sales Tax__ $78.6__ Income Tax__ $11.2__ Total Revenues__ $142.8__ Net Costs__ $2,702.8__
I will admit, there is a difference. but the inherent argument is that as you said in 32 the US government is somehow trying to penalize employers for hiring illegals and has been since 1986 and I say that the government never even tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals. now you are convinced that my memory is faulty. On what basis are you convinced of this? Are the memories of all people so faulty or is it just my memory? you demanded very rudely that I provide evidence of reagan's speech that I remember. You put up a link to his speeches and you did say that this was evidence, yet the link you put up did not include but a minority of reagan's tv appearances in the 1980's and it did not include the speech I saw in early November of 1986. You said that the signing statement was evidence that I never saw the speech I saw, yet the signing statement and the speech I saw are 2 different things. You say that my memory of the wall street journal editorial I read is faulty. and you said that the fact that I could not produce a link proves that my memory is faulty. but 1986 articles from the WSJ are not on the internet. I'd have to go to the library and scan a pdf, then put it on the net to prove this to you. not going to do that abraxas. Lets consider the New York Times editorial written by Ed Meese in 2006. He was Attorney General under Reagan. He said in the editorial that from the beginning of after the 1986 law was passed there was no real serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals. Would you say also that Ed Meese's memory on this point is faulty? If his memory is faulty, then on what do you base this opinion of yours'. Again, I ask you for evidence that the US government makes a serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I want to tell you that as a Minuteman (yeah I was on the border with Chris Simcox in AZ); you simply havn't paid attention to the changes that have gone on in the US government since 2006. Through the first 15 or so years since the 1986 IRCA that Reagan signed, it was largely because of lack of enforcement because the political powers that have existed, maintained no will at all for enforcement. And so illegal immigration flourished and in a sense expanded through 2006. But since many of the Gilchrist/Simcox successful work from 2004 onward, there have been significant changes in law and enforcement. E-verify is required now and that program is rapidly expanding from direct federal employees and contractors (and sub-contractors) to all employers that deal with the US federal government. In the end, if an employer accepts a SSN for ANY employee, that employee shall be verified through E-Verify. Also, since ~2006 ICE has modified its earlier approach from illegal employees to employers AND employees. The fines and penalties are such that imprisonment for employers is now on the books. And there have been a lot of successes all over the country as the federal government increases capability and capacity for enforcement. You are simply out of date and don't keep up with the news or what is going on in America. Now, don't get me wrong .... this nation failed to handle the problem for nearly 20 years (which is always the case) but significant changes are happening.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Again, I ask you for evidence that the US government makes a serious effort to penalize employers for hiring illegals. I haven't relied on my memory, Red. I've provided the signing statement for the bill which provides the evidence that the US government was "supposedly" doing something about employers hiring illegals clear back in 1986. However, the bill only made the situation WORSE, which is what I've been repeating ad nauseum all along this thread while you make lame excuses for Reagan and unsubstantiated claims base soley on your fuzzy memory and nothing else.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Your whinny emotional rant is annoying. I want the illegals hung by the neck after they have been dipped in hot tar and sprinkled with feathers. After that, I say kick 'em out.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Red ignores states taking action as well. Missouri, for instance, made English the official langauage and cut all state benefits for illegals in that state. Missouri has witnessed a massive decline in illegals since 2007 when the legislation was enacted.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Your whinny emotional rant is annoying. I want the illegals hung by the neck after they have been dipped in hot tar and sprinkled with feathers. After that, I say kick 'em out. lol.........say, when Ike kicked illegals out did housing prices plummet? NO!!
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Oh, Red, how could this be so? You were just claiming the man didn't know what the hell he was doing because in the fog of dementia. if you review the record today of what republican and 'conservative' journalists say about Reagan on the immigration issue, they bad-mouth Ronald Reagan. This is because Reagan wanted to create a situation where new illegal immigrants and an un-ending stream of compromised guest workers do not come here. and today's republicans and 'conservative' journalists are on a side that wants to see a permanent stream of guest workers who have a crimped legal status come here for the sake of suppressing wages. and so reagan is ridiculed for this. The controversial comment I made that first created controversy is that I said I would stick with Reagan on this point. and then you ridiculed me directly in 32 for that and spoke falsely. You said that the government has been trying since 1986 to stop illegals by penalizing employers, this is not true. Reagan did not want to criminalize the illegals themselves or put up a wall on the border. Reagan said this, I saw him. today's republicans want to criminalize the illegals themselves thus costing US taxpayers lots of money and at the same time hold the employers blameless who hire them. it is also a completely useless enforcement system that only costs money and fails. Republicans today also want to build a wall on the border and a powerful police presence there. Ronald Reagan was opposed to this, I saw him say so. The strategy of putting the big police presence on the border only wastes money and is ineffective - because they have already demonstrated a great propensity and ability to build tunnels. Reagan had a completely different idea, he wanted to penalize employers who hire illegals. That was a good idea, I say so because it was a good idea and would benefit us as a people. I do not say so because I think reagan was a 'saint' as abraxas describes. I said repeatedly that reagan's personal limitations resulted in failure on this issue. I did not say he 'didnt know what the hell he was doing', that is abraxas' description. He knew what he was doing, he had many republicans who I would call the bush republicans around him that worked against him. After he left the scene the republican party was completely taken over by bush republicans who were anti-american. I repeat what I said that was so controversial. I'll stick with reagan.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
my impression is that a few states do require employers to use e-verify. In Arizona it is voluntary. The federal government provides the e-verify system as a free service, but does not require that employers use it. However, the e-verify system has become ineffective. Most illegals who pay for fake documents are able to get through the e-verify system OK.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Recently I put up an article that said the sum total quantity of fines passed out by the federal gov to employers in an entire year was $3 million. as far as jailing people, some people have been jailed in rare cases. But the norm is that employers can hire who they want. the federal gov does nothing significant to stop them. The total number of employers that arizona has punished under its infamous laws is not even 5 employers and the punishments were token. period. I put up an article on this forum not long ago to prove that.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Did you see how Red slid by any argument concerning the AZ (his own state) LAW (2006) that conforms to USC? All it does is permits the state of Arizona to limit business permits (includes revocation) that hire illegal or otherwise undocumented workers. Now, that is a fine!
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
This is going to be phun! Its now DOUBLE-JEOPARDY, with a bath of angry red ants laid on the AZ floor for those caught; staked by leather straps enjoying the sunshine after a bath of bees honey is laid on their naked skin.... and then after a day or two ... off to the hot tar and feathers ... and then to the oak tree for hanging.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Which one--dementia impaired Reagan who was merely a puppet for more powerful people or great politician for pushing amnesty Reagan? You can't have it both ways, Red. And either way, Reagan's 1986 amnesty has proven to be an EPIC FAILURE, as I've clearly proven on this thread.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
pretty funny buck. it is very sad that the e-verify system has apparently been sabotaged through neglect or by whatever means. it is very sad that we simply don't have a government that is willing to serve us. but we should be able to face this simple truth. and understand that they've lied to us all these years about illegals. They never tried to keep them out by systematically looking at the payrolls of employers and punishing them for hiring illegals.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I really like Ronald Reagan primarily because he was the last national leader of importance who I think at least was on our side. But you implied that I worship the guy. and that believe it or not is a bit of an insult to me. I am opposed to idolatry. Reagan was flawed like anyone else. His greatest flaw was that some people around him were rotten people. But I am happy to say still that I will stick with reagan. and with George Washington as I explained to Cyni above.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I will agree with you that the 1986 immigration reform bill was an epic failure. But I disagree with you that it was Reagan's bill. He did not author it. It resulted from negotiations between House & Senate leaders and these negotiations actually occurred over about a 2 year period. The original bill was called Simpson-Mazolli for the 2 senate sponsors. In the end it may have simply been called Simpson, but it was people in congress that made that law, not reagan. Modern-day Republican propaganda tries to slander Reagan on that bill for reasons I've explained above. Reagan did make sincere efforts to make it work. He failed, I'll agree with you on that part. but the difference we have is in why it failed. You say they tried to penalize employers for hiring illegals. I say that they did not. Ed Meese and the preponderance of evidence agrees with me. The propaganda you love agrees with you. They had a good idea of amnesty coupled with employer enforcement. They did not follow through.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
You think it is phunney? I don't. After a few BUSTED illegal aliens and associated friends of theirs roped with my methods, there would be a mass exodus from America. The problem and the shit holes that these illegals caused blemishing the land, the culture and the tax-payer would be gone. BAH! Only a whinny, illegal alien butt rumper as your self would say that. The federal government is already found that about 5-10% of e-verify are illicit data. And it is up to the employer to ensure the accuracy; else ten years in federal prison. I want to see BOTH illegals and their employers hung by the neck. Furthermore, I want to see well-wishers of illegals hung as well. These folks are traitors and treasonous bastards towards America's sovereignty.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
Here's Reagans' word on the matter: "The act I am signing today is the product of one of the longest and most difficult legislative undertakings of recent memory. It has truly been a bipartisan effort, with this administration and the allies of immigration reform in the Congress, of both parties, working together to accomplish these critically important reforms. " Gee, Reagan touts his administration as being key in this "bi-partisan" debacle. Only you claim otherwise, Red. In Reagan's own words--he owns it. What part of Reagan's own words on the matter are you finding fault with, Red?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
But I am happy to say still that I will stick with reagan. Oh, really? Where exactly is the implied statement? Again, which Reagan? The one you claim was incompetent and a puppet due to dementia or the one you praise his sound and clear mind while pushing through amnesty while at the same time claiming it was Congress and not Reagan's administration to blame which directly contradicts Ronald Reagan himself?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
that is a great phrase Buck. I compliment you on that one.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
I said "a whinny, illegal alien butt rumper" which describes you perfectly.
"In a free society we're supposed to know the truth," ... "In a society where truth becomes treason, then we're in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it" -- Ron Paul, circa 2010-12-02
you said that I view reagan as a 'saint'. I don't wish to raise him up and idolize him in that fashion. he was a human being with 2 arms, 2 legs and flaws.
Psalms 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Keep me off this thread. If it was up to me, I'd deport mama, daddy, and every anchor baby going back 30 years. Then I'd burn their huts! ODIN!!!
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Senate PASSES BILL TO GIVE EACH ILLEGAL BEANER $1000 TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
#2. To: Cynicom, 4 (#1)
Senate PASSES BILL TO GIVE EACH ILLEGAL BEANER $1000 TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
#3. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#4. To: buckeroo (#3)
#5. To: Jethro Tull, Red Jones (#4)
This rebuff to the Illegal Lobby makes me berry, berry happy.
#6. To: buckeroo, Red Jones, 4 (#5)
#7. To: Jethro Tull (#6)
but I believe he carries a touch of Stockholm Syndrome regarding illegals :)
#8. To: Red Jones, Jethro Tull (#7)
We allowed their parents to come here and to exist here.
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#10. To: Red Jones, Jethro Tull (#7)
We allowed their parents to come here and to exist here.
#11. To: Original_Intent, Red Jones (#10)
... but not without a legal application in the same fashion as anyone else wishing to emigrate here.
#12. To: Original_Intent (#10)
some accomodation could be made, but not without a legal application in the same fashion as anyone else wishing to emigrate here.
#13. To: Original_Intent (#10)
"We" as in "We The People" have had no say in it
#14. To: Red Jones (#7)
I feel that any civilized society has an obligation to the children that grow up in that society. Most illegal immigrants' children believe it or not grow up with English as their preferred language. They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American.
#15. To: Red Jones (#7)
"I feel that any civilized society has an obligation to the children that grow up in that society"
#16. To: randge (#9)
¡Cholos no! pero ¡maricones sí!
#17. To: Lod (#14)
(Edited)
The problem is with the mexican gang-bangers, car-stealing, drug dealing, la raza, and all the other malcontents here. These should be shown the exit, pronto.
#18. To: Phant2000 (#17)
I wonder if someone would volunteer for the job of sending him to "secondary" upon his return from his next trip and demanding he produce his birth certificate.
#19. To: Red Jones (#7)
But remember, I am sticking with Ronald Reagan on this issue. Reagan believed in forgiving the illegals.
#20. To: abraxas, Red Jones (#19)
They go to American schools, have american friends and think that they are American.
#21. To: abraxas (#19)
#22. To: Red Jones (#7)
I feel that any civilized society has an obligation to the children that grow up in that society
#23. To: Cynicom (#20)
#24. To: Red Jones (#21)
Reagan was actually under great pressure to sign the bill. He did not come up with the idea contrary to your implication. He was also handicapped by dementia at the time and he had people surrounding him like Bush who were deceiving him. At least he came before the public and told everyone of the problem. that is a lot more than almost anyone else did.
#25. To: abraxas (#22)
Why the hell should illegal alien children get $6K per year for college and NOT MY KIDS?
#26. To: Red Jones (#23)
black americans also are far less likely to serve in today's wars than white americans. does this mean they're not american?
#27. To: Red Jones (#25)
But perhaps if your children were to take the same steps they would also receive the same subsidy.
#28. To: abraxas (#24)
yet, you continually omit that it was sold as a way to END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has failed miserably.
#29. To: randge (#18)
#30. To: Red Jones (#28)
You are a liar.
#31. To: Cynicom (#26)
#32. To: Red Jones (#28)
Reagan said, and I saw his speech, that we needed to pass legislation to stop the new illegals from coming
#33. To: Red Jones (#31)
well I'm not going to serve in the wars. and I think anyone that does is stupid.
#34. To: Red Jones (#28)
but reagan was the 1 rebel who told us the truth
#35. To: randge (#34)
#36. To: Red Jones (#28)
#37. To: Cynicom (#30)
#38. To: randge (#34)
Not enough of a rebel to reach for the veto pen, it would seem.
#39. To: Lod (#36)
I know that your feelings and positions on this matter are strong, but to call another member a liar is beneath you.
#40. To: abraxas, 4 (#38)
#41. To: Red Jones, abraxas, randge, Lod (#37)
#42. To: Red Jones (#37)
he signed the bill in protest.
#43. To: Cynicom (#35)
After completing fourteen home-study Army Extension Courses, Reagan enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve[18] on April 29, 1937, as a private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa.[19] He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on May 25, 1937.[20]
#44. To: Lod (#40)
I like Ike.
#45. To: Lod (#36)
#46. To: Cynicom, 4 (#39)
#47. To: randge (#43)
Are you referring to this?
#48. To: Cynicom (#33)
might be forced
#49. To: Lod (#46)
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
#50. To: Red Jones (#45)
and as far as I'm concerned abraxas called me a liar by disputing what I said about Reagan. all I did was throw the truth back at her.
#51. To: Lod, Cynicom, 4, Red Jones, abraxas, all (#46)
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
#52. To: Red Jones (#45)
#53. To: Red Jones (#48)
you served. I did not. and will not. when they invade our country, that is when I will fight
#54. To: Lod (#40)
Operation Wetback, bump.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#55. To: abraxas (#42)
so he had no veto power?
#56. To: Red Jones (#45)
and don't blame me if your memories are so fuzzy.
#57. To: Cynicom (#49)
I try to keep the level of discourse (most times) on a higher level than elsewhere.
#58. To: abraxas (#56)
Statement on Signing the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#59. To: Lod, Red Jones (#52)
#60. To: Red Jones (#55)
reagan was under dementia at the time. and he was surrounded by people who were against him, likely giving him drugs that put him at a severe disadvantage
#61. To: Original_IntentLod, Abraxas (#59)
So, I always give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes people are mistaken and so it is not a lie, it is simply bad information.
#62. To: Lod, 4 (#57)
There was a time when that would have resulted in a glove across the face
#63. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#59)
So, I always give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes people are mistaken and so it is not a lie, it is simply bad information.
#64. To: Lod (#63)
We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
#65. To: abraxas (#56)
#66. To: Lod (#63)
We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
#67. To: Red Jones (#55)
You act like Reagan was the cause of the illegal immigrants coming
#68. To: Cynicom, 4 (#64)
#69. To: Red Jones, abraxas (#65)
#70. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#69)
You both have valid points so debate the point not personalities.
#71. To: Cynicom, Lod (#64)
We don't need beat-downs, we want the truth here.
#72. To: Lod (#70)
#73. To: Red Jones (#65)
I remember what he said.
#74. To: All (#65)
#75. To: Lod (#68)
Yes, on the one hand I'm more forgiving, and at the same time less forgiving of certain things.
#76. To: Red Jones, Abraxas, all (#74)
what abraxas said in 32 was mocking and ridicule. and it was also a lie.
#77. To: Red Jones, abraxas, all (#74)
#78. To: abraxas (#73)
#79. To: Original_Intent (#77)
I read it as more of challenge than really an assault
#80. To: Red Jones (#74)
She said that Reagan tried and failed, that is a lie. the US government has never tried to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. You are liars to say otherwise.
#81. To: Red Jones, abraxas (#74)
the US government has never tried to systematically penalize employers for hiring illegals. You are liars to say otherwise.
#82. To: Red Jones, All (#79)
#83. To: Red Jones (#78)
(Edited)
It is likely that it would be very difficult to find on the internet a speech made by reagan in 1986. or impossible. yet you demand that I do this just because you are an ignoramus with your feelings hurt over me exposing the fact that you were sold lies.
#84. To: Cynicom (#76)
#85. To: Red Jones, abraxas (#78)
It is likely that it would be very difficult to find on the internet a speech made by reagan in 1986. or impossible.
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#86. To: abraxas (#83)
#87. To: wudidiz (#85)
#88. To: Red Jones (#87)
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#89. To: Red Jones (#86)
#90. To: Red Jones (#84)
cyni, you said I was a free-loader and a side-liner.
#91. To: wudidiz, Red Jones (#85)
#92. To: Lod (#68)
Seems I'm moving to a Black vs. White view, with no Gray in the middle.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#93. To: X-15 (#92)
Prune juice or orange juice. Muselix or Raisin Bran. Decisions, decisions....
#94. To: Cynicom, Lod, The-Over-The-Hill-Gang (#93)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#95. To: X-15 (#94)
Just trying to help him along ;-)
#96. To: abraxas (#89)
#97. To: randge, abraxas (#96)
#98. To: Cynicom, abraxas, Red Jones (#90)
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#99. To: Original_Intent (#97)
They are tired of the government not enforcing the border
#100. To: Original_Intent (#97)
#101. To: abraxas (#73)
Then, by all means, post the WSJ recap for the lot of us.
#102. To: abraxas (#73)
#103. To: Cynicom (#90)
#104. To: abraxas (#83)
#105. To: Red Jones, All (#103)
in using that term to describe me you are making strong judgments about something you know nothing about. and you are not my judge.
#106. To: wudidiz, All (#98)
Red's one of the good guys. So are many others that didn't or don't serve the evil elite.
#107. To: Cynicom (#106)
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#108. To: All (#107)
LOL
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#109. To: Red Jones, abraxas, Cynicom (#98)
Red's one of the good guys.
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#110. To: Cynicom (#106)
Refuse to serve, and you will pay a price, that is reality.
#111. To: Cynicom (#105)
You call others liars, then refute your own words
#112. To: Red Jones (#111)
you've both fallen victim to propaganda and your brains are too stupid to even see. You sure don't mind insulting me. yet when i throw it in your face, you cannot tolerate it.
#113. To: Cynicom (#112)
#114. To: Red Jones (#101)
you're an idiot. articles from back then are not on the net. and you're the one that wants to see the info, I've already seen it.
#115. To: Red Jones (#102)
you're an idiot. the man characterizes the law falsely and you choose to believe that his false characterization is true.
#116. To: wudidiz, Cynicom, Red Jones (#98)
Red's one of the good guys
#117. To: Red Jones (#104)
that is historical fact, not my opinion.
#118. To: Red Jones, abraxas (#113)
we have never had laws that penalized employers for hiring illegals.
#119. To: abraxas (#114)
Oh, like his speeches aren't on the Internet?
#120. To: abraxas (#114)
I posted the ENTIRE SIGNING STATEMENT which refutes your claims the Reagan wasn't attempting via this legislation to tackle the employee and employer problems.
#121. To: abraxas (#116)
Good guys don't call others liars and idiots
#122. To: abraxas (#117)
The historical fact is that the dementia came on after he fell off a horse in 1989 and suffered injury to his brain. Now you think you know more than Reagan's doctors.
#123. To: buckeroo (#118)
In fact that is why SB1070 is being fought vigourously by the federal government.
#124. To: Red Jones (#121)
what you said in 32 is in bad faith, and a lie.
#125. To: Red Jones (#122)
I think that he had dementia in 1986 when he allowed this legislation through.
#126. To: Red Jones (#120)
reagan did truly want to penalize the employers
#127. To: abraxas (#124)
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#128. To: wudidiz (#127)
You're so cute :)
#129. To: Red Jones (#123)
(Edited)
the federal government sues AZ on AZ SB 1070 because it is good psycho-drama for stupid people who like to be fooled by propaganda.
I posted an article showing that the state of Arizona passed a grand total of 131 illegal immigrants to the federal government in the last 3 years. that included the time prior to SB 1070. The first anti-illegal immigrant law AZ passed was 3 years ago [buckeroo adds: under Janet Napolitano, the AZ LAW Act]. People were afraid of that law also and it did nothing. Now SB 1070 does nothing either. It is purposely made so that it will not do anything significant.
I've explained this about 20 times.
explanations tired and emotional rants are one-sided vehicles that portray you as a wimpy-pouty-illegal-alien-ass-licker. If you want me to explain to you exactly what SB1070 does and why it does not work, then I can do that. But I've done it so many times already.
and you just keep watching your tv.
If you want to know how to stop illegals and why we're not doing it, then you actually have to use your brain and think. You have to be able to think thoughts not sanctioned by the mass media propaganda. it is virtually impossible for many Americans (buck).
and for anyone that cares - regarding amnesty - you're not going to get a bill through congress on immigration unless it includes some kind of amnesty.
because that is political reality.
the best you can hope for is what reagan hoped for and failed to get because Senate Republicans sabotaged the efforts. You can't let 20, 25 million people in your country and let them live there for up to 20 years and then just kick them out. The people of our country will not allow it.
The idiots under the influence of propaganda who are so opposed to amnesty in reality are paving the way for a permanent stream of guest workers. and will not succeed either at kicking the illegals out.
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
what about our schools? Some have 80 or 90% illegal immigrant children. do you think we'll kick them all out just because their parents came here illegally? We're not. our people won't stand for it. Make yourself irrelevant if you think otherwise. that is exactly where the propaganda you love puts you (by design).
#130. To: abraxas, cynicon, Flintlock, buckeroo (#126)
PROVE IT!!
#131. To: Red Jones (#130)
I recounted
#132. To: buckeroo (#129)
ICE has been prosecuting thousands of employers since 2008 all over the nation for hiring illegals. THAT IS A REALITY. (thanks to my pals in the Minutemen)
#133. To: Cynicom (#1)
Senate PASSES BILL TO GIVE EACH ILLEGAL BEANER $1000 TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
#134. To: buckeroo (#129)
we have a problem with our housing bubble today. the financial world is very upset that home prices are down after sky-rocketing. It is a situation. If you kick 20 million people out, then what will happen to housing prices. crash. do you think the financial oligarchs will allow that? they won't.
#135. To: Red Jones (#134)
legalize the existing ones
#136. To: abraxas, cynicon (#131)
lol.....what part of your recall has no credibility don't you understand, Red?
#137. To: Red Jones (#134)
Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point.
#138. To: Red Jones (#136)
#139. To: Turtle (#135)
The mean average "Hispanic" IQ is 89. They are a drag on the economy, always will be and should be forced out.
#140. To: Turtle (#135)
New Research Reveals Large Increase in Arizona's Illegal Immigration Costs
#141. To: abraxas (#138)
Saying your memory isn't worth a damn and that you are a liar are two completely different things,
#142. To: Red Jones (#130)
but will you please prove to me that in 1986 we imposed penalties on employers for hiring illegals.
#143. To: Red Jones (#141)
If his memory is faulty, then on what do you base this opinion of yours'.
#144. To: Red Jones (#134)
Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed. It should be obvious to anyone with a brain.
#145. To: buckeroo, Red Jones (#142)
#146. To: buckeroo, Red Jones (#144)
Let me repeat. You kick out 20 million people and you will destroy housing prices and deflate the residential construction industry in a huge way which will take down lots of jobs which hurts all of us. this will not be allowed.
#147. To: abraxas (#137)
Ronald Reagan was smart enough to understand that in 1986. He was smart enough to form an alliance with honest democrats on that point.
#148. To: buckeroo (#142)
E-verify is required now and that program is rapidly expanding from direct federal employees and contractors (and sub-contractors) to all employers that deal with the US federal government. In the end, if an employer accepts a SSN for ANY employee, that employee shall be verified through E-Verify.
#149. To: buckeroo (#142)
Also, since ~2006 ICE has modified its earlier approach from illegal employees to employers AND employees. The fines and penalties are such that imprisonment for employers is now on the books.
#150. To: abraxas, Red Jones (#145)
Red ignores states taking action as well.
#151. To: Red Jones (#148)
Most illegals who pay for fake documents are able to get through the e-verify system OK.
#152. To: Red Jones (#147)
I'll stick with reagan.
#153. To: buckeroo (#151)
angry red ants laid on the AZ floor for those caught; staked by leather straps enjoying the sunshine after a bath of bees honey is laid on their naked skin.... and then after a day or two ... off to the hot tar and feathers ... and then to the oak tree for hanging.
#154. To: abraxas (#152)
Which one--dementia impaired Reagan who was merely a puppet for more powerful people or great politician for pushing amnesty Reagan?
#155. To: abraxas (#152)
Reagan's 1986 amnesty has proven to be an EPIC FAILURE, as I've clearly proven on this thread.
#156. To: Red Jones (#153)
pretty funny buck.
it is very sad that the e-verify system has apparently been sabotaged through neglect or by whatever means. it is very sad that we simply don't have a government that is willing to serve us.
but we should be able to face this simple truth. and understand that they've lied to us all these years about illegals. They never tried to keep them out by systematically looking at the payrolls of employers and punishing them for hiring illegals.
#157. To: Red Jones (#155)
but it was people in congress that made that law, not reagan.
#158. To: Red Jones (#154)
But you implied that I worship the guy
#159. To: buckeroo (#156)
butt rumper
#160. To: Red Jones (#159)
#161. To: abraxas (#158)
Oh, really? Where exactly is the implied statement?
#162. To: Red Jones (#130)
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