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Title: GOP redefines Rape in new Anti-Abort Law
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DemocraticUnderground.com
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Published: Jan 29, 2011
Author: McCamy Taylor
Post Date: 2011-01-29 23:24:02 by Shoonra
Keywords: None
Views: 708
Comments: 55
When is Rape Not Rape? When the GOP House Wants to Limit Your Right to Choose Posted by McCamy Taylor Fri Jan 28th 2011, 11:59 PM Pay close attention to the wording of the latest Republican assault on reproductive choice. The bill, sponsored by Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ) called HR 3 “No Taxpayer Finding for Abortion” goes a lot farther than the Hyde amendment. Under this new bill, if your health insurance covers abortion and you allow your insurer to pick up the tab—you can no longer write off your health care premiums. That means unless you had the forethought to buy special abortion insurance, you are out of luck. And how many women plan for an unplanned pregnancy? Under HR 3, there is a medical exemption. However, your illness must be “physical” before the federal government will pay for it or will allow your insurer to pay for it. Here is the language. (2) in the case where the pregnant female suffers from a physical disorder, physical injury, or physical illness that would, as certified by a physician, place the pregnant female in danger of death unless an abortion is performed, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. This wording gives the director of the Department of Health and Human Services the option to deny abortion funding to poor women with mental illness by claiming that schizphrenia, depression and bipolar disorder are mental rather than physical. Never mind that each illness can be fatal if the sufferer decompensates---and that pregnancy can trigger a decompensation. Note that many people with serious mental health problems are on Medicaid. Note also that mental retardation would not be covered. If a 20 year old with the mind of a child becomes pregnant, the GOP Houses insists that she carry that child to term. Of course, someone with severe mental retardation can not consent to sex. For her, sex is by definition “rape. Or rather, it used to be rape. HR 3 has a strange way of defing rape. (1) if the pregnancy occurred because the pregnant female was the subject of an act of forcible rape or, if a minor, an act of incest; Here is one analysis of the bill: With this legislation, which was introduced last week by Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), Republicans propose that the rape exemption be limited to “forcible rape.” This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion. (Smith’s spokesman did not respond to a call and an email requesting comment.) Given that the bill also would forbid the use of tax benefits to pay for abortions, that 13-year-old’s parents wouldn’t be allowed to use money from a tax-exempt health savings account (HSA) to pay for the procedure. They also wouldn’t be able to deduct the cost of the abortion or the cost of any insurance that paid for it as a medical expense. http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/... So, according to the Republican House (which has embraced HR3) statuatory rape is not really rape. If your 9 year old daughter is given drugs and then the three men who live next door have sex with her while she is unconscious, she was not raped. She just had sex---and if she gets pregnant, she has to live with the consequences. If your mentally retarded and institutionalized daugher is assaulted by an employee of her residential care facility, you will either need to scrape up the money for her abortion yourself—or stock up on Pampers, because chances are that she will not be able to testify that the sex was “forced”. The phrase “forcible rape” is problematic. It could easily be interpreted to mean “rape which a woman has reported to the police as an assault.” In this case, women who do not report being raped---maybe because they are afraid that the assaillent will seek revenge upon them or their family---could be deemed ineligible for a tax payer funded abortion. Back to the “physical disorder” exemption. Note that the woman must be in danger of death. She can not be in danger of being paraplegic or having her legs amputated or going into renal failure. Some doctor has to assert that she is going to die without an abortion. The doctors who do assert that she will die without an abortion in order to get the procedure covered are then at risk of being sanctioned by the government. Anti-choice medical auditors can “review” the case, claim that death was not eminent---and slap the doctor with a hefty fine or even with criminal charges. The result will be that physicians will tend to wait longer until recommending a pregnancy termination---and women will have more chance of suffering severe medical injury or death as a result. One other exemption that is missing---abortion in the event of a nonviable pregnancy. Say your baby is anecephalic. It has no brain. It will not survive outside the womb. Under the Republican plan, the mother will have to carry that baby to term and then watch it die. This is a very sneaky bill, because the GOP can claim that all they are doing is saving the taxpayers money. If the House passes it and the Senate rejects it, they can claim “Democrats want to give away free tax payer funded abortions.” Democrats need to educate the public about how medically irresponsible this bill is.
Poster Comment: First, note that the only exceptional circumstances that would allow an abortion require a "physical" impairment (not a mental or psychiatric one) and they must put the women in danger of death -- mere danger of, say, crippling side-effects, such as stroke, heart attack, diabetes, etc., don't count. In essence, the woman has to find a doctor who will say "this pregnancy will kill this woman, and I, as a doctor, am utterly helpless to pull her through unless the pregnancy is aborted." You won't find many doctors willing to say that, and when you do, you'll probably find some other doctor who will insist on the opposite - although they probably won't be volunteering to take on her case. I remember a case, more than a dozen years ago, in Staten Island, NY. A pregnant woman had fallen into a serious coma - apparently the result of a stroke brought on by the physical stress of the pregnancy - and the doctors advised the husband that his wife best chance, perhaps only chance, of recovery required an immediate abortion. The husband gave his consent, at which point several total strangers filed various retraining orders in court to try to prevent the abortion -- on the pretext that the doctors had said merely that the abortion could help the woman, not that anyone would guarantee either that she'd die without it or be completely cured with it (none of these a_holes had ever seen this woman and none was a doctor). After weeks of litigation the husband finally got a court order authorizing the abortion and shortly after the abortion, his wife regained consciousness. Then the "re-definition" of rape. Must be forcible - use of date rape drugs or other methods don't count. In the case of girls under voting age, no statutory rape, in fact, not even violent rape counts - it only counts if she's pregnant by a blood relative! And there's nothing here about terminating a pregnancy because it make create complications for a future (and better planned) pregnancy, or because the fetus shows a crippling, even toxic, defect. It's true: Republicans care about babies - but only from conception to birth.
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#16. To: SonOfLiberty (#15)
Nice to see your handle show up on the board again. I hope all has been well for you.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Thank you, sirrah. :) Been quite busy in real life, hardly feel like I have a free moment these days. Hope things are going well for you and other friends on 4UM. Slainte.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
I'm with you. How someone could abuse a small child is incomprehensible to me. Children are to be protected and cared for. There are very very few things that motivate me to real anger more than child abuse. Animal is to kind for such, and it makes me long for the days of the public whipping post.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Not too bad. It could be worse. I am burning the midnight oil myself and am just taking a short break to peek and was quite pleased to see you stopping in.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
"Society" pays for nothing. Individuals do. Foster care and adoption do not necessarily lead to prison. So, it's not real violence to be born to a drug addicted mother, perhaps make it a year or two before the abuse and neglect finally takes its toll? Society already does pay. Fifty thousand a year for every one that does end up in prison for each year they spend in prison. Foster care is tens of thousands per child per year. No, not all end up there, but many do and some end up dead. I tried to get custody of a little boy who had a worthless druggie mother and a father who went back to prison when he had just turned three. His entire life was spent pawned off from one person to another to keep him with the family while mommy and daddy did their time and drugs. I just happened to be looking into the local crime log in the paper the other day. There he was, just a few months past his 18th birthday, arrested for strangling, stabbing and burning his girlfriend who is the mother of his one year old son and the child was in the home to watch daddy abuse mommy. Stevie Wonder could have seen that one coming, knowing the kind of shit this kid lived with day in and day out. The cycle carries on with his child as he begins his life of incarceration, maybe mommy can stay out of prison and off drugs, but it's slim odds.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Ab, men can not get pregnant. The life is created in the womans body. A womans pregnancy has little risk to a man. That's reality, not a cop-out. Since when is a rape "consensual"? This is much ado about nothing. ALL RAPES ARE FORCED. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to promptly turn themselves in to their closest educational facility for a prompt reading of The Dictionary to them. The dumbasses over at DU can turn themselves in to their closest mental hospital for trying to make hay over nothing at all.
A people unwilling to use force, once diplomatic efforts have been exhausted, in order to preserve or obtain their liberty deserves the tyrants that rule over them.
Our opinions on this issue appear to be totally congruent.
Today the United States has only 11,670,000 manufacturing jobs, less than 9 per cent of total jobs. Yet, despite America’s heavy dependence on foreign manufactures and foreign creditors, the idiots in Washington think that they are a superpower standing astride the world like a colossus. P. C. Roberts 1/11
See post 8.
I don't have a dictionary at hand ....... for those who do, is the word adoption still in it?
Today the United States has only 11,670,000 manufacturing jobs, less than 9 per cent of total jobs. Yet, despite America’s heavy dependence on foreign manufactures and foreign creditors, the idiots in Washington think that they are a superpower standing astride the world like a colossus. P. C. Roberts 1/11
This bill is too Onionesque for words.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing its idiot.
I'm amazed at your clairvoyance. You should be able to solve all the "worlds" problems with such talent. Stereotyping the futures of " all " unplanned pregnancies and " babies " puts you at the top of the ignorant class. Your words appear like they are out of the NOW agenda to keep the legal murder on going where we have seen upwards of 50,000,000 innocent babies slaughtered here in the U.S.. Are you a member of, or a spokesperson for NOW? If your answer is no, you have fooled me! Those women and men who have been a party to these abortions will someday, somewhere, will be held accountable. There are better ways and methods to stop pregnancies before they happen. They are called abstinence, vasectomies, and tying off a womans tubes. A promiscous woman, which there are millions,, invites these unwanted pregnancies every time she has a sexual romp. Granted there are pregnancies as a result of rape, but believing as I do, in God and the Holy Bible, which states right in the beginning in Genesis, God created every living thing under the heavens and on earth. If a pregnancy occurs as a result of a rape, the fetus is still one of God's creations. God isn't smiling over these unwanted pregnancies and must be very angry about the abortions. I'm sure he will have his vengence come judgement day.
God isn't smiling over these unwanted pregnancies and must be very angry about the abortions. I'm sure he will have his vengence come judgement day. Why did you go and say that. You said something very wise and true. It doesn't match up with your attitude towards innocent Jews.
Madam(?) it 'pears to me that you may be peeing into the wind. The issue seems to be have been settled early on ........ "“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children" Genesis. Similarly, described in that book entitled "Life ain't fair".
Today the United States has only 11,670,000 manufacturing jobs, less than 9 per cent of total jobs. Yet, despite America’s heavy dependence on foreign manufactures and foreign creditors, the idiots in Washington think that they are a superpower standing astride the world like a colossus. P. C. Roberts 1/11
There may be a role for you in a future administration .......... Sec'y of the Dept of Child Separation and Bad Parent Execution."
Today the United States has only 11,670,000 manufacturing jobs, less than 9 per cent of total jobs. Yet, despite America’s heavy dependence on foreign manufactures and foreign creditors, the idiots in Washington think that they are a superpower standing astride the world like a colossus. P. C. Roberts 1/11
See post 8. I'm reminded of a statement from the recent past. (Paraphrasing) "all copulation is rape". Can't remember if it was a lesbian or feminist tenet (a distinction without a difference, at any rate).
Today the United States has only 11,670,000 manufacturing jobs, less than 9 per cent of total jobs. Yet, despite America’s heavy dependence on foreign manufactures and foreign creditors, the idiots in Washington think that they are a superpower standing astride the world like a colossus. P. C. Roberts 1/11
great to see you, SoL. hope you've been good busy? ;)
Chris Smith is a complete POS. I worked very, very hard when I lived near him to oust his ass.
The word 'forceful' has to be included into the bill, or nearly every woman that wants an abortion will falsely accuse innocent men of rape. This will hurt both men and women. Men will be victimized by the millions due to false accusations of rape. And those women that actually were raped will be ignored, because their pleas for justice will be drown out by the millions of false accusation of rape.
lacumo is wrong about vasectomy & tubal ligation. that is akin to Onan in scripture, who purposely spilled his seed to prevent pregnancy. God killed him for that. God does not support artificial birth control.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 If I recall correctly I believe the authoress of the quote was Andrea Dworkin a dyed in the wool hard core lesbian feminazi. And while I don't recall it word for word without looking it up it was basically "all heterosexual sex between a man and a woman was rape". It was the usual Marxist-Feminist rationale of "power relations" acting on the presumption that all males wish to exercise power over women against their will.
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
This screwed up system does all it can to keep the kiddies with the biological parents even after multiple counts of neglect and abuse, no matter how worthless, drugged up or irresponsible they are. I'm a big advocate of adoption. I've worked at trying to get young mothers to take that route. Some do the unselfish and right thing........others have that kid for what the kid can do for them, not what they can do for the kid and, of course, the kid suffers and system likes to send them back over and over again for more. By the time the system gives up on the biological parents, the child is much older and there aren't very many people want to adopt half grown kids.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Did I EVER say that? NO!!! I say the life out of the womb is AS IMPORTANT AS A FETUS........yet, you think it only matters before it takes a breath, which I can't understand for the life of me. It makes no fricking sense to hear people fight for the innocent fetus and not give a damn about the innocent who are born. How do you make the distinction of what is relevant and what is not in regards to life? Important in the womb------not important after birth?????? You don't seem to see the disconnect--don't discard the fetus but go ahead discard after birth. Personally, I think discarding after birth is just as horrific. Go read the reports of abused and neglected kids that end up in the coroners office and tell me what kind of life these kids had......maybe if somebody had given a damn beyond the FETUS STAGE, they wouldn't end up that way. Surely if all the people who feel so strongly that abortion is a crime felt as much for those who are born there would be fewer abortions.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
They are called abstinence, vasectomies, and tying off a womans tubes. Where have I advocated for abortion? NOT ONCE. My point is the children who are born need just as staunch advocates for care and concern. Had you asked, rather than making lame assumptions, you would know that I also advocate for these measures.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Read what you wrote below. At what point is the life no longer innocent or worthy of care and concern by the greater society? At two weeks, one month, a year, two years, maybe six or 12 years old? So, you are willing to fight for the parents having the child while ignoring their inability to care for it and raise it. The child suffers those consequences through abuse, drug addiction and neglect. In the end society still pays for that child in welfare, foster care and eventually prison. People complain about this, but this is the cycle. The very same rationale that the NOW and the feminist use to sugar coat abortion. You still didn't answer my question so I'll ask it again. Are you a member or a spokesperson for NOW?
Yes, in response to Dillo defending the innocent in the womb but not those who draw a breath. It helps to follow along through the thread, not just cherry pick. And, yes, society pays when we can only find care and concern for the fetus and not for the children who are born. Frankly, there would be less abortion if we had more care and concern for children born to worthless parents. Rationale is in defense of an argument, Lacomo. Had you bothered to read mine, you would know that my beef is that BOTH the BORN and the UNBORN are worthy of advocates, care and concern. It is hypocritical for those who wish to fight for a fetus and then claim no responsibility to advocate for those who are born, IMHO. You sure are up on what NOW and the feminists argue. I'm not. Perhaps you are a member or a spokesperson, since you are so familiar with it. Maybe you should run along and find some of them to pick a bone with, especially since you are wasting my time attempting to drum up a "rationale" and an argument in my posts that simply isn't there.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Feminist and the last one of "those types" that tried that crap on me was delivered a "So when are you filing charges against your own father for creating you? Are you PROUD to be the product of a rape?" and she quickly scampered away.
A people unwilling to use force, once diplomatic efforts have been exhausted, in order to preserve or obtain their liberty deserves the tyrants that rule over them.
Probably because I never said that. How can you kill an innocent fetus based on a presumtion of a hard life? WHO HAS ADVOCATED KILLING ANY FETUS????????????????????????????????????????????? Maybe all caps.......maybe not.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
That's what abortion is dear.
That's what abortion is dear. The question is WHO not WHAT dear?
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Indirectly... you. That may not be your intention, but that's what it is.
Being born is not violence, the state of your mothers moral status is not violence. Violence is violence, I try not to play poetic with the language when discussing such dire matters. Violence happens and can happen in uber rich families just like crack mamma families, and often does. No, individuals pay. I don't shoulder the cost for some dork in North Dakota that gets sent to an ND state pen. Individuals in North Dakota do, and very few of them do at that (only those who pay taxes). End of the day, you're asking for something that cannot be, never has been, and cannot exist outside of fantasy. Being born in a world and not have your life taken away by real violence? Heh, well, there are no guarantees of that and cannot be a guarantee of that here on an earth populated by human beings.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Thank you! Yes, quite busy actually. You doing well?
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
That may not be your intention, but that's what it is. BS!! I clearly stated that a fetus is AS important as a baby. So, now you are claiming that I indirectly support killing babies both in and out of the womb? Where do pro-abort people ever state that a fetus is AS important as a baby? Then support your contention that it is my intention......or apologize for the BS.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Asking for people to show as much care and concern for children who are born as for children in the womb? Yeah, that's really asking a lot isn't it? In every community, every day, there are children in need. For example, thousands need a court advocate to stand up for them when their worthless parents can't or won't. Thousands of drug addicted babies need people to come hold them while they cry non stop for hours on end. I completely disagree that being born addicted to drugs is not violence. Perhaps if you sit through some withdrawals as I have, you will see it differently. Lip service to the morality of abortion will only get folks so far...generally only to feeling good about themselves and not a solution to the problem. End of the day, if every person who feels so passionately about the crime of abortion placed an equal emphasis on children who are born, we would have less abortion. You all should invite a single mother into your home to help her through the pregnancy to ensure the health and safety of the innocent. I really don't see any good reason why this isn't possible, other than people don't really want to solve the issue if it requires getting their hands dirty. They would rather just talk about how awful it is from a distance.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
Then support your contention that it is my intention......or apologize for the BS. I dont BS, so I cant apologize for that. :P Your agrument about how hard life is for children of poor parents is what pro- aborts use to excuse killing a fetus. They think death is preferable to a hard life. Imagine someone trying to argue against AGW using a pro-AGW argument and a qualifier that they dont believe in AGW. If I'm not explaining this well enough I will apologize for that.
Problem is that ISN'T my argument at all. I've not stated that's an excuse to kill any fetus. What I have stated is that if you REALLY want to make a difference on the abortion issue, caring for those who are born is a MUST. The anti-abort folks give lip service to life as so important, which is easy to do when you never get your hands dirty. But when it comes to actually helping a mother even through the pregnancy few are willing to step up to the plate, few want to actually adopt an unwanted child, few offer any time or money to help those born into neglect and abuse. So, when the anti-abort only want to provide lip service on the moral and ethical wrong without providing any real substance in regards to the life they deem so valuable, it rings hollow. That is my point. That if life really is so valuable, then it should also be valuable once out of the womb. Yet, you argue THAT isn't your responsibility while you feel some responsibility to a fetus. Even the fetus will not merit any substance beyond talking about the value, not actually providing any food or prenatal care or a safe environment through gestation. In the end, the only real value the fetus seems to offer is to make people feel good about their ethical position in the discourse. If you want to decrease the value of the argument made by pro-aborts, then you must be willing to do some action to demonstrate to mothers that the hard life ahead is worth it and that she will not be alone. How else are you going to get an alternative outcome?
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
How do you propose to provide food, care and a safe environment? And what of parents who dont want help? Shall they be forced, or have their children seized? And what of parents who dont want help? Yes. Obviously not done enough to even make a dent in the problem. In fact, many of the religious charities are doing less these days. Catholic services used to do a lot more than is offered for example. Many will opt to not have help and go for the abortion. The point is to provide sufficient options and alternatives to advocate for the life--innocent life that is so important, right? If you have a pregnant mother who can't even care for herself how do you expect her to care for a child both in the womb and out? You can say she shouldn't have gotten pregnant and she will agree with you, but that doesn't solve the problem. We wouldn't have the atrocious numbers we see today if PEOPLE were actually doing something instead of leaving the problem for everybody else to resolve and offering only condemnation from a distance. And if you think that young men don't need some guidance on this issue, you are mistaken. Often the father is the biggest advocate for abortion because he doesn't want to pay for the child and deems it cheaper to abort. Many will even brag that they have paid for three, four, five abortions that they advocated for and now feel they have really dodged the "bullet" only to go out and knock another one up and repeat the process. So, on this issue people could surely put their high emotions and strong feelings to work doing something to change the paradigm. Charities work by PEOPLE getting involved and PEOPLE making the difference and are always in need of hands willing to actually work on resolving problems--housing, counseling, monetary assistance, guidance etc.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
#17. To: Original_Intent (#16)
#18. To: abraxas (#14)
#19. To: SonOfLiberty (#17)
#20. To: SonOfLiberty (#15)
(Edited)
the right to be brought into life and not have it taken away by real violence
#21. To: abraxas (#14)
(Edited)
Oh, and men don't eh? Don't men know the risks as well? Or do these risks only apply to one gender, despite the necessity of two in creating life? You know that's a complete cop-out Dillo.
A man and woman can screw, and the man can walk off into the sunset with only fond memories. The woman is left pregnant. Who carried the risk? Already many children don't make it to three with selfish morons for parents, Dillo. Abuse and neglect picks off a good many of them that seem to only come into life to know what it is to suffer.
So you think death in the womb is better than a possible rough life outside it?
I'll say again, you have no way of knowing what kind of life a child will have.
I guess I should have been aborted, right?Fifty thousand a year for every one that does end up in prison for each year they spend in prison. Foster care is tens of thousands per child per year. No, not all end up there, but many do and some end up dead.
So you want to abort babies to save money? No thanks.
#22. To: Shoonra (#0)
#23. To: Original_Intent (#4)
I don't like abortion and it is effectively infanticide regardless of how one tries to justify it. However, the life and health of the mother are important as well and I would argue senior to that of the not yet born baby. As for the mental excuse - hogwash. If the mother does not wish to keep the child then adoption is a course of action that is beneficial to both mother and child.
#24. To: mirage (#22)
This is much ado about nothing. ALL RAPES ARE FORCED.
#25. To: abraxas (#12)
(Edited)
So, you are willing to fight for the parents having the child while ignoring their inability to care for it and raise it. The child suffers those consequences through abuse, drug addiction and neglect. In the end society still pays for that child in welfare, foster care and eventually prison. People complain about this, but this is the cycle.
#26. To: Shoonra, 4 (#0)
#27. To: abraxas (#12)
At what point is the life no longer innocent or worthy of care and concern by the greater society? At two weeks, one month, a year, two years, maybe six or 12 years old? So, you are willing to fight for the parents having the child while ignoring their inability to care for it and raise it. The child suffers those consequences through abuse, drug addiction and neglect. In the end society still pays for that child in welfare, foster care and eventually prison. People complain about this, but this is the cycle.
#28. To: LACUMO (#27)
Those women and men who have been a party to these abortions will someday, somewhere, will be held accountable. There are better ways and methods to stop pregnancies before they happen. They are called abstinence, vasectomies, and tying off a womans tubes. A promiscous woman, which there are millions,, invites these unwanted pregnancies every time she has a sexual romp. Granted there are pregnancies as a result of rape, but believing as I do, in God and the Holy Bible, which states right in the beginning in Genesis, God created every living thing under the heavens and on earth. If a pregnancy occurs as a result of a rape, the fetus is still one of God's creations.
#29. To: abraxas, Armadillo (#14)
Don't men know the risks as well? Or do these risks only apply to one gender, despite the necessity of two in creating life? You know that's a complete cop-out Dillo.
#30. To: abraxas (#14)
Already many children don't make it to three with selfish morons for parents, Dillo.
#31. To: PaulC, Jmirage (#24)
This is much ado about nothing. ALL RAPES ARE FORCED.
#32. To: SonOfLiberty (#17)
#33. To: Shoonra (#0)
The bill, sponsored by Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ) called HR 3 “No Taxpayer Finding for Abortion” goes a lot farther than the Hyde amendment.
#34. To: iconoclast, mirage (#31)
(Edited)
#35. To: A K A Stone, lacumo (#28)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#36. To: iconoclast (#31)
"all copulation is rape". Can't remember if it was a lesbian or feminist tenet
#37. To: iconoclast (#25)
I don't have a dictionary at hand ....... for those who do, is the word adoption still in it?
#38. To: Armadillo (#21)
o you think death in the womb is better than a possible rough life outside it?
#39. To: LACUMO (#27)
Your words appear like they are out of the NOW agenda to keep the legal murder on going where we have seen upwards of 50,000,000 innocent babies slaughtered here in the U.S.. Are you a member of, or a spokesperson for NOW?
#40. To: abraxas (#39)
Had you asked, rather than making lame assumptions, you would know that I also advocate for these measures.
#41. To: LACUMO (#40)
#42. To: iconoclast (#31)
Can't remember if it was a lesbian or feminist tenet
#43. To: abraxas (#38)
yet, you think it only matters before it takes a breath, which I can't understand for the life of me.
It makes no fricking sense to hear people fight for the innocent fetus and not give a damn about the innocent who are born. How do you make the distinction of what is relevant and what is not in regards to life? Important in the womb------not important after birth?????? You don't seem to see the disconnect--don't discard the fetus but go ahead discard after birth. Personally, I think discarding after birth is just as horrific.
I'll say this a third time, in ALL CAPS, maybe you'll get it this time-
YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT LIFE WILL HOLD FOR ANY CHILD.
#44. To: Armadillo (#43)
How can you kill an innocent fetus based on a presumtion of a hard life?
#45. To: abraxas (#44)
WHO HAS ADVOCATED KILLING ANY FETUS?
#46. To: Armadillo (#45)
WHO HAS ADVOCATED KILLING ANY FETUS?
#47. To: abraxas (#46)
WHO
The arguments you are making are the same ones the pro-abort people use.
#48. To: abraxas (#20)
So, it's not real violence to be born to a drug addicted mother, perhaps make it a year or two before the abuse and neglect finally takes its toll?
Society already does pay.
#49. To: christine (#32)
#50. To: Armadillo (#47)
Indirectly... you.
#51. To: SonOfLiberty (#48)
End of the day, you're asking for something that cannot be, never has been, and cannot exist outside of fantasy
#52. To: abraxas (#50)
(Edited)
BS!! I clearly stated that a fetus is AS important as a baby. So, now you are claiming that I indirectly support killing babies both in and out of the womb? Where do pro-abort people ever state that a fetus is AS important as a baby?
Also I did not say it was your intention, I said "That may not be your intention, but that's what it is."
Meaning that's what your argument is saying whether you mean it or not.
By using the "life is hard" agument, you are making that case indirectly, whether you agree or not.
That would be confusing wouldnt it?
#53. To: Armadillo (#52)
Your agrument about how hard life is for children of poor parents is what pro- aborts use to excuse killing a fetus. They think death is preferable to a hard life.
#54. To: abraxas (#53)
. Yet, you argue THAT isn't your responsibility while you feel some responsibility to a fetus. Even the fetus will not merit any substance beyond talking about the value, not actually providing any food or prenatal care or a safe environment through gestation. In the end, the only real value the fetus seems to offer is to make people feel good about their ethical position in the discourse.
If you want to decrease the value of the argument made by pro-aborts, then you must be willing to do some action to demonstrate to mothers that the hard life ahead is worth it and that she will not be alone. How else are you going to get an alternative outcome?
A government program? No thanks. Charity? Already being done.
Where does this slippery slope "for the children" end?
#55. To: Armadillo (#54)
Charity? Already being done.
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