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Title: Rand Paul pleads for conservatives to oppose the PATRIOT Act
Source: raw story
URL Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/ ... ses-opposition-to-patriot-act/
Published: Feb 16, 2011
Author: Sahil Kapur
Post Date: 2011-02-16 00:11:09 by abraxas
Keywords: None
Views: 542
Comments: 45

Rand Paul pleads for conservatives to oppose the PATRIOT Act

By Sahil Kapur Tuesday, February 15th, 2011 -- 12:02 pm

WASHINGTON – Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) wrote to colleagues Tuesday voicing objections to the PATRIOT Act as it heads to the Senate for reauthorization, warning that it could turn America into a "police state."

Paul, a tea party favorite who was first elected last November, expressed opposition to warrantless searches and surveillance, questioning their constitutionality and their necessity to protect the United States from terrorist acts.

"I object to these warrantless searches being performed on United States citizens," he wrote. "I object to the 200,000 NSL searches that have been performed without a judge’s warrant. I object to over 2 million searches of bank records, called Suspicious Activity Reports, performed on U.S. citizens without a judge's warrant."

"It is not acceptable to willfully ignore the most basic provisions of our Constitution—in this case—the Fourth and First Amendments—in the name of 'security,'" Paul added.

The House on Monday approved an extension of three key provisions in the PATRIOT Act by a margin of 275 to 144, after an attempt to fast-track the bill failed to win a two-thirds majority last week. The provisions will expire at the end of February if the Senate does not also extend them.

Paul said that in passing the PATRIOT Act after the attacks of September 11, 2001, "Congress instead hastily passed a long-standing wish list of power grabs like warrantless searches and roving wiretaps. The government greatly expanded its own power, ignoring obvious answers in favor of the permanent expansion of a police state."

The Kentucky Republican's letter reflects that he is positioning himself as a civil liberties champion, a rare breed in Congress and especially so in the Senate, making his voice more significant. The PATRIOT Act has largely been supported by the Bush and Obama administrations, as well as a majority of Democratic and Republican lawmakers. TAKE ACTION Petitions by Change.org|Get Widget|Start a Petition »

"As February 28th approaches, with three provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act set to expire, it is time to re-consider this question: Do the many provisions of this bill, which were enacted in such haste after 9/11, have an actual basis in our Constitution, and are they even necessary to achieve valid law-enforcement goals?" Paul wrote.

In his letter, Paul even quoted ousted Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold (WI), a civil liberties stalwart and the only Senate vote against the PATRIOT Act in the weeks after 9/11.

His full letter is below the fold.

####

Dear Colleague:

James Otis argued against general warrants and writs of assistance that were issued by British soldiers without judicial review and that did not name the subject or items to be searched.

He condemned these general warrants as “the worst instrument[s] of arbitrary power, the most destructive of English liberty and the fundamental principles of law, that ever w[ere] found in an English law book.” Otis objected to these writs of assistance because they “placed the liberty of every man in the hands of every petty officer.” The Fourth Amendment was intended to guarantee that only judges—not soldiers or policemen—would issue warrants. Otis’ battle against warrantless searches led to our Fourth Amendment guarantee against unreasonable government intrusion.

My main objection to the PATRIOT Act is that searches that should require a judge’s warrant are performed with a letter from an FBI agent—a National Security Letter (“NSL”).

I object to these warrantless searches being performed on United States citizens. I object to the 200,000 NSL searches that have been performed without a judge’s warrant.

I object to over 2 million searches of bank records, called Suspicious Activity Reports, performed on U.S. citizens without a judge’s warrant.

As February 28th approaches, with three provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act set to expire, it is time to re-consider this question: Do the many provisions of this bill, which were enacted in such haste after 9/11, have an actual basis in our Constitution, and are they even necessary to achieve valid law-enforcement goals?

The USA PATRIOT Act, passed in the wake of the worst act of terrorism in U.S. history, is no doubt well-intentioned. However, rather than examine what went wrong, and fix the problems, Congress instead hastily passed a long-standing wish list of power grabs like warrantless searches and roving wiretaps. The government greatly expanded its own power, ignoring obvious answers in favor of the permanent expansion of a police state.

It is not acceptable to willfully ignore the most basic provisions of our Constitution—in this case—the Fourth and First Amendments—in the name of “security.”

For example, one of the three provisions set to expire on February 28th—the “library provision,” section 215 of the PATRIOT Act—allows the government to obtain records from a person or entity by making only the minimal showing of “relevance” to an international terrorism or espionage investigation. This provision also imposes a year-long nondisclosure, or “gag” order. “Relevance” is a far cry from the Fourth Amendment’s requirement of probable cause. Likewise, the “roving wiretap” provision, section 206 of the PATRIOT Act, which is also scheduled to expire on the 28th, does not comply with the Fourth Amendment. This provision makes possible “John Doe roving wiretaps,” which do not require the government to name the target of the wiretap, nor to identify the specific place or facility to be monitored. This bears an uncanny resemblance to the Writs of Assistance fought against by Otis and the American colonists.

Other provisions of the PATRIOT Act previously made permanent and not scheduled to expire present even greater concerns. These include the use and abuse by the FBI of so-called National Security Letters. These secret demand letters, which allow the government to obtain financial records and other sensitive information held by Internet Service Providers, banks, credit companies, and telephone carriers—all without appropriate judicial oversight—also impose a gag order on recipients.

NSL abuse has been and likely continues to be rampant. The widely-circulated 2007 report issued by the Inspector General from the Department of Justice documents “widespread and serious misuse of the FBI’s national security letter authorities. In many instances, the FBI’s misuse of national security letters violated NSL statutes, Attorney General Guidelines, or the FBI’s own internal policies.” Another audit released in 2008 revealed similar abuses, including the fact that the FBI had issued inappropriate “blanket NSLs” that did not comply with FBI policy, and which allowed the FBI to obtain data on 3,860 telephone numbers by issuing only eleven “blanket NSLs.” The 2008 audit also confirmed that the FBI increasingly used NSLs to seek information on U.S. citizens. From 2003 to 2006, almost 200,000 NSL requests were issued. In 2006 alone, almost 60% of the 49,425 requests were issued specifically for investigations of U.S. citizens or legal aliens.

In addition, First Amendment advocates should be concerned about an especially troubling aspect of the 2008 audit, which documented a situation in which the FBI applied to the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) to obtain a section 215 order. The Court denied the order on First Amendment grounds. Not to be deterred, the FBI simply used an NSL to obtain the same information.

A recent report released by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (“EFF”) entitled, “Patterns of Misconduct: FBI Intelligence Violations from 2001-2008,” documents further NSL abuse. EFF estimates that, based on the proportion of violations reported to the Intelligence Oversight Board and the FBI’s own statements regarding NSL violations, the actual number of violations that may have occurred since 2001 could approach 40,000 violations of law, Executive Order, and other regulations.

Yet another troublesome (and now permanent) provision of the PATRIOT Act is the expansion of Suspicious Activity Reports. Sections 356 and 359 expanded the types of financial institutions required to file reports under the Bank Secrecy Act. The personal and account information required by the reports is turned over to the Treasury Department and the FBI. In 2000, there were only 163,184 reports filed. By 2007, this had increased to 1,250,439. Again, as with NSLs, there is a complete lack of judicial oversight for SARs.

Finally, I wish to remind my colleagues that one of the many ironies of the rush to advance the PATRIOT Act following 9/11 is the well-documented fact that FBI incompetence caused the failure to search the computer of the alleged 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui. As FBI agent Coleen Rowley stated, “the FBI headquarters supervisory special agent handling the Moussaoui case ‘seemed to have been consistently almost deliberately thwarting the Minneapolis FBI agents’ efforts” to meet the FISA standard for a search warrant, and therefore no request was ever made for a warrant. Why, then, was the FBI rewarded with such expansive new powers in the aftermath of this institutional failure?

In the words of former Senator Russ Feingold, the only “no” vote against the original version of the PATRIOT Act,

“[T]here is no doubt that if we lived in a police state, it would be easier to catch terrorists. If we lived in a country that allowed the police to search your home at any time for any reason; if we lived in a country that allowed the government to open your mail, eavesdrop on your phone conversations, or intercept your email communications; if we lived in a country that allowed the government to hold people in jail indefinitely based on what they write or think, or based on mere suspicion that they are up to no good, then the government would no doubt discover and arrest more terrorists. But that probably would not be a country in which we would want to live. And that would not be a country for which we could, in good conscience, ask our young people to fight and die. In short, that would not be America.”

I call upon each of my Senate colleagues to seriously consider whether the time has come to re-evaluate many—if not all—provisions of the PATRIOT Act. Our oath to uphold the Constitution demands it.

Sincerely,

Rand Paul, M.D. United States Senator

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#6. To: Eric Stratton (#1)

Tea Party people, AKA neocons, are fools!

there are neocons within the Tea Party, but to label them all neocons is inaccurate.

christine  posted on  2011-02-16   10:22:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Jethro Tull (#4)

Rand better make up his mind which side of the fence he wishes to be on.

His position is clear. He's a good guy on this issue.

OK, I'll rephrase that.

Rand Paul needs to be CONSISTENT, either he is with the masses or he is not

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   10:37:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Cynicom (#7)

Rand Paul needs to be CONSISTENT, either he is with the masses or he is not

I think you're confusing US with the masses, Cyni. If people like US represent more than 5% of the American masses, I'll eat that bola hat you're so proud of!

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   10:52:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Jethro Tull, Phant2000, All Paulites (#8)

I think you're confusing US with the masses, Cyni

Am not.

Stop trying to confuse an olde man, not nice.

Jethro, he has to be consistent.

The Patriot Act is FOR AND AGAINST THE MASSES, even tho most of them do not realize it.

Patriot Act is about hanging or shooting you and me, no matter what we know, and we is a part of the masses. Rand objects, that good.

Now, just prior, Rand lays the ills of the country on me, the common slug, the lowest of the low of the masses. Thats bad.

He is either with us or the system. Dont kick my ass on Monday, pat me on the back on Tuesday and ask for money on Wednesday. Common people well may be not to bright, BUT THEY HAVE A LONG MEMORY.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   11:03:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Cynicom (#9)

Common people well may be not to bright, BUT THEY HAVE A LONG MEMORY.

He is inconsistent. Keep looking, for anyone that disagrees.

Just last night, at dinner, one of my friends said, "You suppose Rand is really a hypocrit, or does someone need to tell him to clean up his inconsistency?" The guy who posed the question is a rube! hehehe

Phant2000  posted on  2011-02-16   11:07:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Phant2000, All Paulites (#10)

Just last night, at dinner, one of my friends said, "You suppose Rand is really a hypocrit,

Well, he sure scorched my rear end with his laying the troubles of this country on me and my cuzin kin. After thinkin it over, I am surprised he did not lay this endless war on me and my kin. Being a born agin pub like his Daddy, I aint gonna sit still if he says I invaded Iraq.

By the way I am listing all potential subversive Paulites here on the forum.

hehehehehehehehehe

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   11:17:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Cynicom (#11)

By the way I am listing all potential subversive Paulites here on the forum.

So you're up to no good again this morning, eh?

Phant2000  posted on  2011-02-16   11:20:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Phant2000, All Paulites (#12)

So you're up to no good again this morning, eh?

Hey, dont act like Miss Educated Smarty to me.

You never let me forget you had voice and dance lessons, on and on, college, all the frills and bells.

I have a cause, an agenda, a goal, a job and an adventure here on 4um.

That is to educate the members here not to take themselves to seriously, CAUSE I DONT EITHER.

hehehehehehe..Show me a man with no sense of humor and I show you my friends here.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   11:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Cynicom. All Paulies (#11)

Well, he sure scorched my rear end with his laying the troubles of this country on me and my cuzin kin.

Methinks that Cyni is cursing the son for the supposed sins of his father. You're interpretation of Rand's news blips on unions is in err. You never did answer any of my questions regarding forced unionization in the land of the free. Omitting KEY adjectives is disingenuous dear.

Here you have the only one with the guts to speak against this travesty in the senate, yet you will give no quarter for that while festering over other issues that arise from willfully ignoring the words "forced" and "coerced" from this man's commentary.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-02-16   12:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Cynicom (#9)

shooting you and me

Turtle is bulletproof. They bounce off of me like they would a tank.

"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson

Turtle  posted on  2011-02-16   12:06:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Cynicom (#13)

Show me a man with no sense of humor and I show you my friends here.

Nothing in your blurb speaks of truth except your cause, agenda, job and adventure. MUHAHAHAHA

Phant2000  posted on  2011-02-16   12:10:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Cynicom, Phant2000, PSUSA, *No Planers* (#13)

I have a cause, an agenda, a goal, a job and an adventure here on 4um.

That is to educate the members here not to take themselves to seriously, CAUSE I DONT EITHER.

hehehehehehe..Show me a man with no sense of humor and I show you my friends here.

Cyni, ye olde s**t disturber.

You could always come over to BSUSA's no planer thread.

While I'm at it, I might as well invite you to the "no planers" ping list.

It would be an honor to have you on board, Sir ;D


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-02-16   12:19:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: abraxas (#14)

"Dear Concerned American,

You and I have an historic opportunity to break the cycle of tax-and-spend, political corruption and out of control budgets..... caused..... by Big Labor’s compulsory union power....

But we must strike now to make Congressmen and Senators choose between standing with the 80% of Americans who oppose forced unionism and Big Labor's multi-billion dollar political machine.

It will be an epic, historic battle and your support is critical.

Please sign the petition below right away.

Sincerely,

Rand Paul U.S. Senator, (R-KY)

Ab... Above are Rands words in their entirety. I take it as he intended. I cannot fathom how the other 88 per cent of American workers have no effect what so ever. I cannot grasp that.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   12:43:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Cynicom (#9)

Rand objects, that good.

Right you are!

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   12:43:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Turtle (#15)

Turtle is bulletproof. They bounce off of me like they would a tank.

I am thick skinned from barbs lobbed my way friends here but not thick enuff to ward off a bullet.

You could be hung by your scrawny neck ???? Hemp party????

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   12:45:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: wudidiz (#17)

While I'm at it, I might as well invite you to the "no planers" ping list.

I refuse to join any group that would allow me in. I do have some standards, not many, some are rather thin.

I am still miffed at you as a friend, cause you like the rest thot me stupid, even after I put the humor in bold letters.

Out of five friends, every one of them passed it off as Cyni is stupid.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   12:49:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Cynicom (#18)

Big Labor’s compulsory union power..

forced unionism and Big Labor's multi-billion dollar political machine

Yes, I am fully aware of Rands words in their entirety. You are not taking it has he intended. You are using the average working man to hide behind his true intent.

Big Labor is a term that generally excludes independent unions. It refers to the Leviathan unions that are generally INTERNATIONAL exuding influence on the American government. These are mega unions that take in the independent unions as part of the GLOBALISTS wet dream. World Workers Unite ring any bells?

Why do you think that the term Big Labor was used? This isn't about the average worker, Cyni. Again, for the umpteenth time, are for FORCED unionism or not?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-02-16   13:03:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: abraxas (#22)

Why do you think that the term Big Labor was used? This isn't about the average worker, Cyni. Again, for the umpteenth time, are for FORCED unionism or not?

Ab...

If you read my pearls of wisdom, you will find that I post repeatedly that ...I DESPISE UNIONS, any union, all unions, voluntary or forced, all, all.''If you recall Reagan busted a very powerful union, many of them that lost their jobs were my friends and coworkers.

I talked til blue in the face to them, dont do it. It is stupid. But I also knew that they had to have a union for protection. Why should slugs and drones need a union??? They are overpaid, dont do anything, get a huge pension and live happily ever after, right???????????????????

AB, the guy at the bottom has only his hands and sweat to offer, with that in mind, the first thing that every communist government does ..is outlaw all unions..each year the number of American workers within unions drops.

Perhaps we should go backwards, make all unions illegal, no minimum wage, even open up child labor again, perhaps we should be careful about what we wish for and use caution when we place blame for our ills.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   14:04:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: wudidiz (#17)

You could always come over to BSUSA's no planer thread.

That's not my topic. I didn't bring up the "no planes" idiocy.

.


Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

"All Israel had one million one hundred thousand men who drew the sword, and Judah had four hundred and seventy thousand men who drew the sword. 1 Chronicles 21:5 Bigger than the US Army! lulz

Judges 1 19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. Iron is gods Kryptonite. More lulz

Jesus Never Existed

PSUSA  posted on  2011-02-16   14:11:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Cynicom (#23)

AB, the guy at the bottom has only his hands and sweat to offer, with that in mind, the first thing that every communist government does ..is outlaw all unions..each year the number of American workers within unions drops.

Perhaps we should go backwards, make all unions illegal,

I agree, but Rand isn't talking about the guy at the bottom. Commies use the backs of guys at the bottom to promote political ideology under the guise of "workers rights" and when they get what they want they drive the bus over the workers.

He's not saying to make unions illegal. He is talking about a specific politically motivated BIG LABOR movement, not independent unions. Hence, the use of the term BIG LABOR.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-02-16   14:53:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Jethro Tull (#5)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

Eric Stratton  posted on  2011-02-16   15:19:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: christine (#6)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

Eric Stratton  posted on  2011-02-16   15:20:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Cynicom (#23)

But I also knew that they had to have a union for protection.

I take exception to that comment!!!

During the NAFTA/GATT debate, I and a friend tried to educate the union workers at the then Fairless Hills Steel mill in Bucks county, PA. While some were receptive, most weren't, and we were quickly escorted off the property by union goons sent from their elected delegates. A few years later, when the mill was in the process of moving to Mexico, myself and Ed parked in front of the mill and smiled as the oafs left for parts unknown, with their last paycheck in hand.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   15:28:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: abraxas (#25)

I agree, but Rand isn't talking about the guy at the bottom.

AB...

Who on earth is he talking about????

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   15:58:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Jethro Tull (#28)

oafs left for parts unknown, with their last paycheck in hand.

Oafs???

Thats a tuff one to take.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   15:59:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Cynicom (#29)

Who on earth is he talking about????

He is talking about the BIG LABOR UNIONS that force and coerce their members to do what they want them to do........or face the consequences. He is talking about the very unions that shake down their own members. It is the very guy at the bottom who is browbeat into doing what the higher level union thugs want them to do......get out on the street, protest here, protest there, make noise here, even when it IS NOT in the best interests of the workers. Cyni, you are not so naive as to pretend not to know the underhanded practices that go on in some of these big unions that gobble up independent unions. Like I said, these Leviathans are pro GLOBALIZATION and not PRO THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS. They simply use the backs of the working saps to accomplish what they want, even if in the end, it cuts the throats of those workers. Fat cats at the top who have skimmed and skimmed and skimmed don't care.

This is why the words Big Labor, Forced and Coercive are essential to grasp the context of what he is talking about.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-02-16   16:08:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#31)

Ab...

Newest figures out by BLS...

For KY, Rands State.

"For release: Wednesday, February 9, 2011

Technical information: (404) 893-4222 • BLSinfoAtlanta@bls.gov • www.bls.gov/ro4 Media contact: (404) 893-4220

UNION MEMBERSHIP IN KENTUCKY – 2010

In 2010, the number of workers in Kentucky belonging to a union was 147,000, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Regional Commissioner Janet S. Rankin noted that union members accounted for 8.9 percent of wage and salary workers in the State in 2010, up from the 2009 rate of 8.6 percent. At its peak in 1989, the first year for which comparable state data were available, the union membership rate for the State was 14.8 percent.

Nationally, the number of workers belonging to a union declined by 612,000 to 14,715,000 in 2010. Union members accounted for 11.9 percent of employed wage and salary workers, down from 12.3 percent a year earlier. In 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was 20.1 percent. Kentucky posted union membership rates below the U.S. average each year dating back to 1990. (See chart 1.)

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   16:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Cynicom (#30)

Oafs???

Thats a tuff one to take.

Have you a kinder word for men who refused to take the time to learn what NAFTA would do to them and their jobs?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   16:35:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: abraxas, Jethro tull (#31)

Ab...

I do not take offense to disdainful names attached to union members. By and large we were and are the less intelligent, least educated and less motivated lowest class of American society. That is granted.

I cannot agree that we should have no protection, that is happening as you can see from the BLS, union labor is dropping every year. With that labor income is decreasing also.

BLS mentions but does not differentiate between "big labor" workers and workers employees by government entities, those people are about 6 per cent. Thus we have about 6 per cent of American workers that are the root problem of this country.

There are other BLS figures that are available on the subject.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   16:38:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Cynicom (#34)

cannot agree that we should have no protection,

Nobody is advocating NO protections, Cyni. It is a specific type of union, labeled as BIG LABOR, that is troublesome........not just politically but also for the union members.

Labor unions drop for many reasons Cyni and your blip didn't state any, but I will offer you a few: the union doesn't pull through with what they promise workers and workers leave, the union places unreasonable expectations upon worker that workers resent and the workers leave, the jobs that were once unionized leave because there if very little politically rallies even by unions to keep the jobs in the states and so there is no union job for the workers--the job went to the turd world despite all the union promises. Imagine that, less unions because workers find them ineffective and revolt when FORCED into idiotic expectations or there IS NO MORE JOB despite all the promises. A simple review of the number of manufacturing jobs leaving this nation solves this quickly.

BLS does not differentiate. BIG LABOR is the size of the union, generally a derogatory term used specifically to denote Leviathan unions with POLITICAL agendas that do not serve the workers. It is usually a massive one that gobbles up the truly effective INDEPENDENT unions that people prefer.

You mentioned KY, without noting that all the garment making left that state with towns going to waste. Nearly all mega corps moved out of KY and on down to the turd world Cyni.........where they don't have unions.

Enough with this "root problem" in this country baloney, Cyni. I've explained enough times that you can no longer feign naivete in regards to BIG LABOR and the distinction between these groups and the common workers.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-02-16   17:19:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Jethro Tull, Abraxas (#33)

24 February 1912 Women and children were beaten by police during a textile strike in Lawrence, Massachusetts.

18 April 1912 The National Guard was called out against striking West Virginia coal miners.

11 June 1913 Police shot three maritime workers (one of whom was killed) who were striking against the United Fruit Company in New Orleans.

5 January 1914 The Ford Motor Company raised its basic wage from $2.40 for a nine hour day to $5 for an eight hour day.

20 April 1914 The "Ludlow Massacre." In an attempt to persuade strikers at Colorado's Ludlow Mine Field to return to work, company "guards," engaged by John D. Rockefeller, Jr. and other mine operators and sworn into the State Militia just for the occasion,attacked a union tent camp with machine guns, then set it afire. Five men, two women and 12 children died as a result. Additional web resources are catolged at www.holtlaborlibrary.org/ludlow.html#Web%20Sites." Mind you this was 1914...American history is replete of hundreds of such examples, of workers and families being shot and killed, dozens of such.

In 1916, the US Supreme Court was asked to outlaw child labor...Their verdict was that it was constitutional for ALL CHILDREN AGED SIX AND OLDER TO HOLD ANY AND ALL JOBS AVAILABLE.

IN 1919 once again they were asked to find it unconstitutional to employ child labor, once again they demurred, saying a child over six had the right to work any place they desired and any hours they desired.

Capital/industrialists won both times. Dozens of Americans were shot trying to get some labor changes, to no avail until my time in 1934. Finally child labor was outlawed, Capital HAD TO HIRE adults.

At eight years of age I was paid 25 cents a day, for 12 hours labor as the government said it was okay for farm labor to be performed by children. Grown men were paid a dollar a day but farmers would rather hire 4 children for the same dollar.

I do resent any inference that I do not understand interplay between labor and capital, on the grounds that I have been there.

Nowhere in the long history of American strife is there any record of members of the capitalist group and or their children being shot and killed.

Programmed hate does have its use, as hate unites people into useful purposes.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-16   17:27:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Cynicom (#36)

The North American Free Trade Agreement or NAFTA is an agreement signed by the governments of Canada, Mexico, and the United States, creating a trilateral trade bloc in North America. The agreement came into force on January 1, 1994.

The oafs who refused to educate themselves regarding NAFTA, and instead chose believe what their union bosses belched, deserve that blue WalMart greeters vest they now wear. History was no teacher to them.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   17:34:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Jethro Tull, Cynicom (#37)

The oafs who refused to educate themselves regarding NAFTA, and instead chose believe what their union bosses belched, deserve that blue WalMart greeters vest they now wear. History was no teacher to them.

That's because BIG LABOR is in cahoots with the GLOBALISTS. I've tried to explain this to Cyni to no avail. The independent unions that were actually effective for the working class people back in the day are crushed by big labor operations. With that crushing goes the jobs and all the gains that had been previously garnered. For some reason, Cyni wants to bury his head in the sand regarding this issue, instead opting to make BIG LABOR into a "for the worker" movement rather than a politically motivated machine for GLOBALISTS. Sad truth is, the workers are DUPED by BIG LABOR unions time and time again.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-02-16   17:49:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: abraxas (#38)

I googled "Trumka and global unions" and 19k hits come up. The first page is about all one needs to see to understand what has become of the union movement. A bowel movement would be a more accurate term. What once was a countervailing weight to worker abuse has morphed into a pool of multicultural, leftist slop. Today's unions shouldn't be confused with a Norman Rockwell painting; those days are gone, unfortunately. What we have now are the election time doorbell ringers and ACORN sympathizers. None worth the powder to blow them to hell. When we win they'll be scattered like the useless flotsam and jetsam that they are.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   18:49:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: abraxas (#38)

Sad truth is, the workers are DUPED by BIG LABOR unions time and time again.

I agree. They reinforce the concept that Big Money is entitled to strip our states of minerals and resources, make a show of arm-wrestling with Big Business cohorts, then throw the workers a few scraps after they arrange to deduct chunks of money for their pittance protection-racketeering. Meanwhile, they make it so the "boss" doesn't have to be bothered for long periods with employee issues and make it so workers who should be replaced can't be, more qualified applicants with better work ethics kept out.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2011-02-16   21:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: GreyLmist, 4 (#40)

Here's a little test we can all do at home. The next time you need a plumber or an electrician, will you look to hire the local independent business man, or head on down to the union hall and hook up with a 'for scale' union worker?

I rest my case.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-02-16   21:28:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Jethro Tull (#41)

Good point.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2011-02-16   22:02:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Cynicom (#21)

I refuse to join any group that would allow me in. I do have some standards, not many, some are rather thin.

I am still miffed at you as a friend, cause you like the rest thot me stupid, even after I put the humor in bold letters.

Out of five friends, every one of them passed it off as Cyni is stupid.

I suspect you might take more responsibility.

It is you who, in your subtle genius, is deceptively humble such that we of not so exalted intellect are inclined to immediately assume you had erred. Not so much stupid as sublimely and innocently misleading.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-02-17   1:31:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: wudidiz (#43)

I suspect you might take more responsibility.

Ha.

Cynicom  posted on  2011-02-17   3:48:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Cynicom (#20)

You could be hung by your scrawny neck ???? Hemp party????

I'm not scrawny. No turtle is scrawny!

"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." - Thomas Jefferson

Turtle  posted on  2011-02-17   12:31:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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