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Title: Hard Evidence Repudiates the Hypothesis that Mini-Nukes Were Used on the WTC Towers
Source: http://journalof911studies.com/letters/a/Hard-Evidence-Rebud
URL Source: http://journalof911studies.com/lett ... wtc-towers-by-steven-jones.pdf
Published: Mar 8, 2011
Author: Dr. Steven E. Jones
Post Date: 2011-03-08 14:09:35 by RickyJ
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Keywords: None
Views: 4147
Comments: 79

Poster comment: Read the PDF link for better formatting and charts. Chose to believe what you want to believe but this paper presents facts rather than the space beams of Fetzer. Nuclear bombs are not needed to take down a building. They could have easily taken down all of Manhattan with one mini-nuke, but then everyone would know they did it. I really even shouldn't waste my time on this, but I get tired of the trolls pushing the absurd.


1 Hard Evidence Repudiates the Hypothesis that Mini-Nukes Were Used on the WTC Towers Letter, by Dr. Steven E. Jones 28 Sept 2006 (Updated Jan. 2007, peer-reviewed, accepted for publication 7 Jan 2007. Appendix A added 16 January 2007.) Introduction The ancient Greek method of “science” was to start with one or several observations, then apply LOGIC to seek an explanation. For example, the Greek idea that the earth was at the center of the universe explained many observations without a telescope. And where the data did not “fit”, Plato declared that they should “save the hypothesis” – putting the “logical” explanation ahead of empirical data and experiments. I have observed that many people today use this method without realizing that it has been supplanted in the scientific community by a much better way to arrive at facts. Modern Scientific Method: start with several observations, and generate a hypothesis (or hypotheses) to be tested. (See Appendix A.) Then perform further EXPERIMENTS and measurements to test each hypothesis and its predictions. Keep challenging the hypothesis with more experiments – and modify the hypothesis as more empirical data are acquired. Finally, based on solid evidence and analyses, arrive at a conclusion and publish results in a peerreviewed journal or book. In this way, many hypotheses (including the flat-earth and geo-centric universe concepts) have been discarded “scientifically,” while a small number of robust theories have survived (like Quantum Theory). While many pieces of evidence may support a hypothesis, it logically takes only one soundly established contradictory piece of evidence to require the abandonment of a hypothesis.

2 We do not need to endlessly discuss hypotheses that have been ruled out by empirical data. We will apply the modern scientific process in studying the hypothesis that mini-nuclear bombs were used to bring down the Towers. The WTC Mini-Nuke Hypothesis An hypothesis has been suggested that a small nuclear bomb was placed in each Tower and used to demolish the buildings on 9/11/2001. [Ref. 1 below.] We collect and analyze empirical evidence to find out whether or not the hypothesis is valid. Tritiated water tests: “Traces of tritiated water (HTO) were detected at the World Trade Center (WTC) ground zero after the 9/11/01 terrorist attack. A water sample from the WTC sewer, collected on 9/13/01, contained (0.164±0.074) nCi/L of HTO. A split water sample, collected on 9/21/01 from the basement of WTC Building 6, contained 3.53±0.17 and 2.83±0.15 nCi/L, respectively. These results are well below the levels of concern to human exposure…” http://www.llnl.gov/tid/lof/documents/pdf/241096.pdf Tritium from a thermonuclear (fusion) bomb would be way above these trace levels of a few NANOcuries per liter. (A nanocurie = nCi, 1 billionth of a curie. That is a very tiny amount of radioactivity.) A major fusion reaction in hydrogen bombs is deuterium + tritium  Helium + neutron. Many millions of curies of tritium are present in even a small thermonuclear (hydrogen) bomb. (Note that tritium can be generated during the blast from the reaction of neutrons on lithium deuteride.) Yet the observed tritium levels at GZ were in the billionth of a curie range. Note

3 that “atomic” or fission bombs are based on the fissioning of heavy elements such as uranium and plutonium, rather than the fusing together of light hydrogen isotopes (such as deuterium and tritium) in the hydrogen or fusion bomb. But to date, all known hydrogen bomb-explosions have been started (“ignited”) by fission bombs. Our technology is not yet sufficient to have a “pure” fusion device of any significant size – we struggle to ignite small d-t pellets in a laser-bombardment environment. Indeed, this problem of igniting the fusion reaction explains why we do not yet have hydrogenfusion reactors producing power. Furthermore, the fission-fusion bomb is designed to release enormous amounts of energy by combining effects from fission and fusion -- see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_bomb . Note: controlled, even room-temperature “pure” fusion is possible using elementary particles known as muons, in muon-catalyzed fusion. See paper by the author in Nature 321: 127-133 (invited paper), also Rafelski and Jones in Scientific American, July 1987. The energy yields are not enough by muoncatalyzed fusion for commercial power generation (unfortunately) – nor for a nuclear bomb (fortunately). The graphs below show that hydrogen-bomb testing boosted tritium levels in rain by several orders of magnitude. (Ref.: http://www.science.uottawa.ca/~eih/ch7/7tritium.htm )

4 The data clearly demonstrate the large amount of tritium released due to hydrogen bombs, the first of which was tested in 1951. Thus, tritium is a tracer for hydrogen bombs, the “smoking gun.” Can proponents of the WTC-mini-nuke hypothesis explain how large releases of tritium did NOT happen on 9/11/2001? Mere trace amounts of Iodine-131 (produced in fission reactions) found in Hudson River sediments “Sediment cores pulled from the Hudson River near the World Trade Center site just a month after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks contain a thin layer of metal-rich ash and pulverized debris. The top 3 cm of silt contained layers with unnaturally high concentrations of copper, strontium, and zinc from the towers, says Sarah D. Oktay, a geochemist… “Oktay and her colleagues also found that the sediments contain small but measurable quantities of iodine-131, a human-made radioactive isotope with a half-life of about 8 days. Total iodine concentrations were actually lower in the [WTC] debris-filled layers, which means the source of the element probably isn't related to the attacks. Also, the iodine probably didn't leak from nuclear power plants upstream because other telltale radioactive isotopes didn't turn up. Instead, says Oktay, the iodine—which is used in various medical treatments and sometimes carried home internally by patients—probably entered the river through local sewage systems. The researchers report their findings in the Jan. 21 Eos.”

5 So, Iodine concentrations were LESS in the upper debris layers associated with the WTC dust! And Iodine-131 (produced in fission reactions) was only found in very low-level trace amounts anyway. These data provide strong evidence against “mini-nuke-caused-WTC-destruction” hypothesis involving fission reactions, including a “small” fission bomb to set-off a fusion bomb. References: Science News, Volume 163, No. 7, February 15, 2003, p. 109. Oktay, S.D., et al. 2003. WTC geochemical fingerprint recorded in New York harbor sediments. Eos 84(Jan. 21):21–28. Sept. 2006: Radioactive “hot spots” in NY City – but is it the kind and amount evidencing “mini-nukes”? We need to be cautious – just because there is a small amount of radioactivity found – that does not mean that nuclear bombs were used to bring down the World Trade Center. As careful researchers, we check the AMOUNT and the RADIOACTIVE SPECIES involved. From a news article: “Radioactive 'hot spots' threat to city”, BY JAMES GORDON MEEK, DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU • “WASHINGTON - A helicopter survey revealed 80 radioactive "hot spots" in New York City, including a Staten Island park with dangerously high levels of radium, a congressional report disclosed yesterday…The GAO did not identify the park, but Brian Feeney of the National Park Service said a 1-acre section of Great Kills Park on Staten Island, part of Gateway National Recreation Area, had been shut down in August 2005 after federal officials discovered old industrial equipment contaminated with radiation.” RADIUM is NOT used in nuclear weapons (e.g., “mininukes”), although it can be one of many products of fission. It is not fissile (like plutonium and uranium). But it is used in some industrial equipment. It should have been disposed of properly,

6 yes, but this radioactive radium is NOT indicative of a nuclear bomb. Radioactive isotopes A published study by Paul Lioy et al. presents data regarding radioactive isotopes (radionuclides), such as would be produced in abundance if atomic bombs were in fact deployed. [http://www.ehponline.org/members/2002/110p703-714lioy/lioyfull. html] Radionuclides. We analyzed the gamma spectrum of the samples using an EG&G/Ortec high-purity Ge detector (50% relative efficiency) gamma counter (EG&G/Ortec Instruments, Inc., Oak Ridge, TN). We analyzed approximately 50 peaks based on statistical significance (counting/lack of interferences). These included thorium, uranium, actinium series, and primordial radionuclides. Liquid scintillation analyses were conducted for emissions on the total dust and smoke samples using a Packard Tri-Carb Model 2770 TR/SL (Packard Instrument, Meriden, CT). The MDA for alpha radioactivity was 0.30 DPM (0.14 pCi) based on a NIST-traceable 226Ra standard (National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD). Results. We found only background levels of alpha radionuclide activity by liquid scintillation counter analysis of all three samples. Beta activity was slightly elevated, but not more than twice the background level. There were no levels of gamma activity > 1 Bq/g except for naturally occurring potassium-40. These very low levels of radioactive isotopes (radionuclides) in the WTC dust are by themselves sufficient to rule out the use of atomic bombs (even as triggers) at the WTC, which could be construed as an absurd notion as it confronts the empirical facts. But we carry on with still more data. Neutron activation not observed. All nuclear weapons (especially FUSION/Hydrogen bombs) release copious high-energy neutrons which will activate steel and other materials, as the neutrons penetrate building materials. This is called neutron activation and cannot be avoided. Much of the

7 induced radioactivity remains for decades. Moreover, the fall-out from even small nuclear weapons is highly radioactive. So we measure the level of radioactivity as proof (or disproof) of the use of nuclear bombs. Several months ago, I tested WTC dust samples (from an apartment at 113 Liberty Street, NYC [1]) and a solidified metal sample (from the Clarkson University WTC monument [1]) for radioactivity using a Geiger counter. (Daedalon Corp., model EN-15.) I found ZERO RADIOACTIVITY (meaning nothing above background). This experimental evidence goes strongly against the mini-nukes hypothesis since measured radioactivity was simply at background levels. I used the same counter to measure the radioactivity of sand gathered from a nuclear-bomb test site decades ago for comparison – and the Geiger counter showed (2.94 +- 0.15) counts/sec. (The fused-sand was in fact from a New Mexico test site where an atomic bomb was detonated in 1945.) This demonstrates unequivocally the presence and long life of radioactive residues due to nuclear bombs, and the ability of the sensitive Geiger counter to measure that radioactivity. The sand still yields high Geiger-counter readings decades after the nuclear bomb blast, yet the WTC dust and slag and steel yield nothing. In addition, a steel member from the WTC (again from the Clarkson University WTC monument [1]) was recently tested for neutron activation by the author. The WTC steel showed 100 counts in 4m 26s, or (0.38 +- 0.04) counts/second. The background counting rate showed 100 counts in 4m 18s, or (0.39+- 0.04) counts/second. These data overlap within the statistical error, meaning that zero counts over background were seen from the WTC steel. A note on pulverization. Along with others, I examined the sample obtained by Janette MacKinlay at 113 Liberty Street, just across from the South Tower. The windows of her apartment were blown in during the collapse of this tower on 9/11/2001, and her apartment was filled

8 with dust and debris. She collected a sample of this material in her own apartment in a plastic bag – which is good procedure – and the chain of custody went directly from her to me. (In the presence of other researchers, I collected more samples from her large plastic bag, while visiting in her home.) As we examined the WTC-debris sample, we found large chunks of concrete (irregular in shape and size, one was approximately 5cm X 3 cm X 3cm) as well as medium-sized pieces of wall-board (with the binding paper still attached). Thus, the pulverization was in fact NOT to fine dust, and it is a false premise to start with near-complete pulverization to fine powder (as might be expected from a mini-nuke or a “star-wars” beam destroying the Towers). Indeed, much of the mass of the MacKinlay sample was clearly in substantial pieces of concrete and wall-board rather than in fine-dust form. A previously published study of the WTC dust noted: “The environmental science community has been slow to understand that the acute health effects were attributable to a complex mixture of gases and particles and that the particles in greatest abundance (mass) in the dust were the unregulated supercoarse (>10-¼mdiam) particles, not the fine (<2.5-¼m-diam) or coarse (2.5–10-¼mdiam) particles that are typically measured.” http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag/40/i22/html/111506feat ure_lioy.html ] Their supportive data are shown in the table below: It seems that the 9/11 truth community likewise “has been slow to understand” that the WTC dust particles in greatest abundance are the “supercoarse” variety rather than “fine” particles, and that significant chunks of concrete were also found in the WTC rubble.

9 Mini-nukes are not needed for the observed concrete pulverization nor for “top-down” demolition as observed for the WTC Towers. Chemical explosives such as RDX, HMX can cause controlled demolition along with concrete pulverization; most of us have observed such demolitions using chemical explosives and the large dust clouds produced. (In addition, cutter-charges such as super-thermites and thermate-class reactions could have been used on 9/11/2001, along with conventional explosives. See http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedD idtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf .) Just because most demolitions proceed with explosions at the bottom first (e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkiwNxfB4GM&mode=relate d&search= ), this does not mean that destruction cannot be started near the top (as was the case with the Towers). Indeed, the demolition of the Seattle Kingdome proceeded from near the top for much of the building; see http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Seattle+Kingdom e+demolition&search=Search). Cutter-charges can obviously be exploded starting near the top. (For the case of the WTC Towers, see further explanation in Jones, http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidt heWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf). Thus, a mini-nuke is certainly not necessary to explain this “top-down” destruction. Indeed, it is difficult to see how a mini-nuke in each Tower (especially if located in the basements) could generate the observed “top-down” destruction of each WTC Tower – and without totally destroying the “bath-tubs” under each of the Towers. People and glass as detectors for nuclear-bomb radiation Finally, people themselves become “detectors” for the radiations associated with nuclear bombs. Glass also is known to melt in the intense heat of a nuclear bomb blast. All nuclear bombs produce copious x-rays, gamma-rays and fast neutrons, which are fatal at close range with a distinctive ‘burning’ of the victims. This applies to fusion as well as fission bombs.

10 NO such immediate fatalities due to radiation “burning” were reported. Note that while power-outages can be generated by electromagnetic pulses associated with nuclear bombs, most power outages in history (and there are many instances) are due to other causes. The windows of the Towers were observed to break but not melt during the collapses. William Rodriguez, after rescuing many people in the Towers, survived the collapse of the North Tower, adjacent to the building during its collapse. He did not show effects of a nuclear blast. The WTC dust contained asbestos and other carcinogens. Thus, the increased incidence of cancers near ground zero can be accounted for without resorting to radioactive agents from a mininuke. In a similar vein, the molten metal observed beneath both Towers and WTC 7 is consistent with a eutectic mixture of sulfur and iron (and other materials) which stays molten well below the melting point of iron (1538 C, 2800 F). The use of aluminothermics such as thermate (involving chemical rather than nuclear reactions) may account for the molten metal as explained in an earlier paper in this field of study [S. E. Jones in www.journalof911studies.com]. Thus, it is not necessary to invoke a mini-nuclear weapon to account for the molten metal observed. Indeed, the molten metal seen flowing out of the South Tower can be accounted for by the thermite reaction which produces molten iron, but could not be ascribed to a mini-nuclear explosion since this flow began several minutes before the destruction of the Tower. Conclusion and a challenge The hard physical evidence presented is strongly against the hypothesis that mini-nukes destroyed the WTC Towers: 1. Observation of tritium (an important component of hydrogen-bomb fuel) at WTC sites at the few nano-curie level only. This is strong evidence against the mini-nuke hypothesis.

11 2. The fact that radioactive iodine concentrations were actually lower in the upper/WTC debris-filled layers. 3. Radioactive hot-spots in NYC were found to be due to radium, which is traceable to industrial uses (not bombs). This in itself does not rule out mini-nukes, but these data certainly do not support the mini-nuke hypothesis. 4. Lioy et al. report that radioactivity from thorium, uranium, actinium series and other radionuclides is at or near the background level for WTC dust. 5. Nuclear activation or residual “fall-out” radioactivity (above background) was NOT observed, in tests performed by the author on actual WTC samples. This result is consistent with the low Iodine-131 measured by independent researchers (point 2 above) and the low radionuclide counts (point 4 above) and again provides compelling evidence against the mini-nuke-at-Towers hypothesis. 6. No fatalities due to radiation “burning” were reported near ground zero. William Rodriguez survived the North Tower collapse. 7. No observed melting of glass due to the collapse-process of the Towers. 8. One more: The mini-nuke idea fails completely for WTC 7 where vertically-directed plumes of dust were absent during the collapse, and the building fell quite neatly onto its own footprint. (Molten metal was observed under the WTC7 rubble as well.) While many pieces of evidence may support a hypothesis it logically takes only one soundly established contradictory piece of evidence to require the abandonment of a hypothesis. In the list above, we have not one but several pieces of evidence which contradict the mini-nukes-at-WTC-Towers hypothesis. Proponents of the “mini-nuke” theory are invited to organize their data and write up a serious evidence-oriented paper, to submit to the Journal of 9/11 Studies as a reply to this Letter. That reply will be published. A thorough response should address all of the points above. The Journal editors (corresponding to known practice in the scientific community) state that they will allow such responses to be published without peerreview constraints, the main requirements for publication being relevance, civility in the presentation, avoiding straw-man arguments,

12 raising specific points and questions, and naming of the author(s) so that they may be contacted for further discussion. The author has invites proponents of the “mini-nuke theory” [Ref. 1 below] to write a reply (or replies) to this Letter. I invite replies in the spirit of collegiality and rigorous scientific investigation, with the understanding that we are able to test and actually eliminate some hypotheses –a necessary “weeding out” process in science. Endless discussions are not fruitful, whereas measurements and experiments often are. Furthermore, when 911 researchers go before the media or investigative bodies, we had better have the besttested facts and theories available and everything else in categories such as “highly speculative” or better, “dismissed by the data.” Reference 1: Some presentations on mini-nuke theory, from 911Scholars.org (as of January 4, 2007) US Government's Usage of Atomic Bombs — Domestic — WTC 25 September 2006, Ed Ward, MD Finnish Miliary Expert: Why the WTC Collapsed Cancer, Radiation from 911? 13 September 2006, Virgilius Haufniensis Interview with Dr. William (Bill) Richard Deagle 16 November 2004, The Alex Jones Show, Alex Jones Micronuclear Devices Used in OKC Bombing: Explosives Placed by FBI, ATF 8 September 2004, prisonplanet.com, Bill Deagle, M.D. APPENDIX A: THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, FROM: http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node6.html

13 What is the ``scientific method''? The scientific method is the best way yet discovered for winnowing the truth from lies and delusion. The simple version looks something like this: • 1. Observe some aspect of the universe. • 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed. • 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions. • 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results. • 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation. When consistency is obtained the hypothesis becomes a theory and provides a coherent set of propositions which explain a class of phenomena. A theory is then a framework within which observations are explained and predictions are made. Figure 1.1: Flow diagram describing the scientific method.

14 The great advantage of the scientific method is that it is unprejudiced: one does not have to believe a given researcher, one can redo the experiment and determine whether his/her results are true or false. The conclusions will hold irrespective of the state of mind, or the religious persuasion, or the state of consciousness of the investigator and/or the subject of the investigation. Faith, defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, does not determine whether a scientific theory is adopted or discarded. A theory is accepted not based on the prestige or convincing powers of the proponent, but on the results obtained through observations and/or experiments which anyone can reproduce: the results obtained using the scientific method are repeatable. In fact, most experiments and observations are repeated many times (certain experiments are not repeated independently but are repeated as parts of other experiments). If the original claims are not verified the origin of such discrepancies is hunted down and exhaustively studied. When studying the cosmos we cannot perform experiments; all information is obtained from observations and measurements. Theories are then devised by extracting some regularity in the observations and coding this into physical laws. There is a very important characteristic of a scientific theory or hypothesis which differentiates it from, for example, an act of faith: a theory must be ``falsifiable''. This means that there must be some experiment or possible discovery that could prove the theory untrue. For example, Einstein's theory of Relativity made predictions about the results of experiments. These experiments could have produced results that contradicted Einstein, so the theory was (and still is) falsifiable. In contrast, the theory that ``the moon is populated by little green men who can read our minds and will hide whenever anyone on Earth looks for them, and will flee into deep space whenever a spacecraft comes near'' is not falsifiable: these green men are designed so that no one can ever see them. On the other hand, the theory that there are no little green men on the moon is scientific: you can disprove it by catching one. Nb: While one speaks of “a hypothesis” to be tested, there can be several hypotheses under consideration, of course. Each stands or falls based on empirical data. Subscribe to *9-11*

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#1. To: RickyJ, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve (#0)

The entire hypothesis is, alas, predicated upon a faulty premise.

The author assumes that the publicly available knowledge represents the limits of technology, and yet we have multiple large laboratory reservations which operate at levels of secrecy above top secret.

Therefore the premise is unwarranted and unsupported.

The likelihood is very high, and in my occasionally humble opinion certain, that there are technologies of which we are completely unaware. Outside observers and analysts routinely assume, based on past evidence, that the technology available in the above top secret black budget world is anywhere between 20 and 40 years ahead of what has been released to the public and in some areas, such as weapons technology, possibly further in advance of that.

So, assuming that the publicly available technology is the only technology is not only unwarranted but is most probably completely false.

Now I am not maintaining that this proves mini-nukes were used in the demolition as we have only circumstantial evidence to go on. My only contention is that the assumptions made in this article are most likely false or at best insufficient to prove the point.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   14:25:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Original_Intent, another Duff Man special, 4 (#1)

The entire hypothesis is, alas, predicated upon a faulty premise.

That sounds so very intellectual.

The author assumes that the publicly available knowledge represents the limits of technology, and yet we have multiple large laboratory reservations which operate at levels of secrecy above top secret.

Therefore the premise is unwarranted and unsupported.

Uh huh.

So, Duff Man, if someone told you that he saw a flying pig doing immelmanns and split s's at mach 50, you would entertain the possibility because "we have multiple large laboratory reservations which operate at levels of secrecy above top secret."

You really are an idiot.

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   14:38:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: RickyJ (#0)

A) What vaporized the central core?

B) Demonstrate and/or explain why and how the dust billowed UPWARDS from the collapsing structure, and estimate how many "cutting charges" would need to be placed in order for the structure to turn almost completely into dust.

C) Since a large portion of mass was turned into dust and did NOT add to the total downward force claimed to be responsble for the collapse, why and how did the collapse occur close to freefall speed?

D) If regular explosives turn buildings to dust (which I've yet to see an example of), then why didn't Building 7 turn into dust as well?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   15:00:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: RickyJ (#0)

I found ZERO RADIOACTIVITY (meaning nothing above background).

Well then he is LYING, since it's clear that radioactivity WAS present in the WTC remains and surrounding areas.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   15:02:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: PSUSA (#2)

Are you trying to say that the government has no secrets, and every little bit of technology they have in their possession is public knowledge?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   15:06:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Original_Intent (#1)

The entire hypothesis is, alas, predicated upon a faulty premise.

The author is stating the null hypothesis, which state that the evidence is not there for the use of nukes.

If the author is honest and his instruments are correctly calibrated that means we must look for other evidence that says that nukes were there.

I found this picture that seems to refute the nuke story, at least as it is portrayed in the Khalezov "buried nuke" scenario. It shows the building collapse beginning at upper floors.

Whereas Khalezov maintains that the collapse radiated upwards as the buildings were consumed in a shockwave from below.

Where do we go forward from here?

Wherever that is, let's hope that we can take that walk without the taunts, catcalls, jeers and sophomoric recriminations that often accompanies these types of threads.

It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

randge  posted on  2011-03-08   15:07:31 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: randge, Original_Intent (#6)

I found this picture that seems to refute the nuke story, at least as it is portrayed in the Khalezov "buried nuke" scenario. It shows the building collapse beginning at upper floors.

I'd assume the core was vaporized by a mini-nuke, whereas the top floors were collapsed with cutter charges. Nano-thermite may have been applied at key areas of the building to assist in the collapse.

With the core gone and the top floor supports destroyed, the collapse would proceed as witnessed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   15:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: randge (#6)

I have drawn no firm conclusions beyond the general that nano-thermites were used in concert with explosives of some form. Beyond that the evidence needs further sifting and analysis.

I am not defending the Khalezov "buried nuke" scenario what I am suggesting is that the refutation of it is logically unsound. It may well be that the Khalezov "buried nuke" scenario is incorrect and that is a point I do not dispute. What I do reject upon logical grounds is the refutation as being equally unproved.

The evidence is what it is. We can continue to look at it and make inferences based upon the precious little hard physical evidence, but the plotters who conducted this operation were very thorough in getting rid of most of the evidence quickly and not allowing it to be examined by a competent forensics team.

So, the upshot is that I am not wedded inextricably to any of the existing hypotheses as to the mechanics of the collapse beyond the fact that two airplanes whose fuel burned up in the first ten minutes do not account for the observed phenomena.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   15:20:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Are you trying to say that the government has no secrets, and every little bit of technology they have in their possession is public knowledge?

Since you asked me a stupid question, I will ask you one too. Are you saying that there could be flying pigs?

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   15:21:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: PSUSA (#9)

Since you asked me a stupid question, I will ask you one too. Are you saying that there could be flying pigs?

I wasn't talking about pigs, flying or otherwise. What YOU were saying is that since something isn't public, then it can't exist.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   15:23:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: PSUSA (#2)

You really are an idiot.

How nice. I am just so chagrined by your puerile "wit" that I just do not know what to do. Oh, boo hoo!

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   15:24:08 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: FormerLurker, BSUSA, PSUSA, all (#10) (Edited)

Since you asked me a stupid question, I will ask you one too. Are you saying that there could be flying pigs?

I wasn't talking about pigs, flying or otherwise. What YOU were saying is that since something isn't public, then it can't exist.

There is just no percentage in arguing with stupid.

Just look at it as he is up to his usual tricks:

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   15:27:21 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: PSUSA (#9)

Since you asked me a stupid question

That was an unnecessary riposte.

We can have a conversation here without the use of those kinds of adjectives.

It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

randge  posted on  2011-03-08   15:34:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: FormerLurker (#10)

What YOU were saying is that since something isn't public, then it can't exist.

That was your interpretation. I didn't say that it can't exist.

But is it outlandish to believe it does exist? Yes. Especially when people grasp so desperately at straws in order to try and made their ideas fit, no matter how strange their ideas are.

It would be interesting to see where you, and particularly Duff Man, draw the line between the credible and incredible.

Using that silly "we don't know what they have so therefore this idiotic idea has merit" phrase, and you can say the strangest things about any topic.

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   15:42:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: randge (#13)

You want to be a moderator? Ask Christine and see what she says.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   15:43:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: PSUSA (#9)

If buckets of chicken can score touchdowns on kick returns, then why can't pigs fly?

Obnoxicated  posted on  2011-03-08   15:46:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Original_Intent (#1)

The author assumes that the publicly available knowledge represents the limits of technology, and yet we have multiple large laboratory reservations which operate at levels of secrecy above top secret.

The author has more than publicly available knowledge available to him through his own research in cold fusion and at the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility in New Mexcio.

So, assuming that the publicly available technology is the only technology is not only unwarranted but is most probably completely false.

Assuming anything with the scientific method is not the scientific method. He is not assuming anything, he is using the available evidence and reports to come to the conclusion that a mini-nuke was not used. I agree with his conclusion.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-08   15:49:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: All (#16)

Btw, my kids got a kick out of your avatar.

Obnoxicated  posted on  2011-03-08   15:50:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: randge, FormerLurker, BSUSA, christine, wudidiz, all (#13)

Since you asked me a stupid question

That was an unnecessary riposte.

We can have a conversation here without the use of those kinds of adjectives.

Oh, we could but then the hate that colors everything he writes would not get to be expressed.

As well he seems to have become the Official Site Disruptor™. He wants to be abrasive so as to derail debate and try to throw in disruptive, logically unsound, comments to speed along the disruption.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

"A rational person participating as one interested in the truth will evaluate that chain of evidence and conclude either that the links are solid and conclusive, that one or more links are weak and need further development before conclusion can be arrived at, or that one or more links can be broken, usually invalidating (but not necessarily so, if parallel links already exist or can be found, or if a particular link was merely supportive, but not in itself key) the argument. The game is played by raising issues which either strengthen or weaken (preferably to the point of breaking) these links. It is the job of a disinfo artist to interfere with these evaluation... to at least make people think the links are weak or broken when, in truth, they are not... or to propose alternative solutions leading away from the truth. Often, by simply impeding and slowing down the process through disinformation tactics, a level of victory is assured because apathy increases with time and rhetoric."

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

"5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues."

"9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect."

"17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues."

The main one at play here is #17 - by being abrasive, hate filled, and offering weak alternatives (which also qualifies as #9 Playing Dumb) the game is to disrupt and prevent intelligent conversation and debate.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   15:54:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: RickyJ (#17)

Assuming anything with the scientific method is not the scientific method.

Sure he is, and yes it is part of the Scientific Method. In order to form a hypothesis one has to take a given set of facts and set them up in a trial solution called a hypothesis. A hypothesis is, by definition, an assumption that a given set of facts "may" fit and prove the trial solution. It then takes further research confirming or disproving a given hypothesis.

In short a "hypothesis" is a formal "educated guess" i.e., an assumption.

Q.E.D.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   15:57:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: PSUSA (#14)

But is it outlandish to believe it does exist? Yes. Especially when people grasp so desperately at straws in order to try and made their ideas fit, no matter how strange their ideas are.

It is outlandish to believe that it CAN'T exist.

When you look at the evidence of what DID happen, the central core apparently vaporized. Now WHAT would cause that to happen?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   15:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: FormerLurker (#4)

I found ZERO RADIOACTIVITY (meaning nothing above background).

Well then he is LYING, since it's clear that radioactivity WAS present in the WTC remains and surrounding areas.

No he is not lying, you are taking his words out of context. He mentioned the radioactivity measured shortly after the towers fell and found it way too low to be from a nuclear bomb even a mini-one. He is measuring dust samples here for radioactivity many years after 9/11 and finds no radiation. He then compares that with sand around known nuclear explosions in the 40s which still today show high amounts of radioactivity.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-08   15:59:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: PSUSA (#14)

What it comes down to PSUSA, there is NO reason to believe that a mini-nuke or some other exotic weapon wasn't used, since conventional explosives doesn't explain the observed phenomenon. So if it wasn't conventional explosives, it HAD to have been something else. We are not certain what that something else is, but we DO know that it was SOMETHING, and a mini-nuke is a possibility.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   16:01:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Obnoxicated, BSUSA (#18)

Btw, my kids got a kick out of your avatar.

That seems reasonable. After all that is the level of his "debate".

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   16:02:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: RickyJ, FormerLurker (#22)

He then compares that with sand around known nuclear explosions in the 40s which still today show high amounts of radioactivity.

The fundamental flaw in that reasoning though is that it assumes that the technology has not progressed since that first fission bomb. Just from what is in the public record we can discard that as unfounded i.e., false.

One of the keys of 4th generation nuclear weapons is that they have a more complete conversion of mass to energy and thus fewer radioactive particles i.e., they do not produce as much radiation and because of the smaller size and lower yield they produce less.

Thus it does not prove the point.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   16:06:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#19)

To: ... christine ...

@ FormerLurker

When you look at the evidence of what DID happen, the central core apparently vaporized. Now WHAT would cause that to happen?

You know what? I don't know. And, I refuse to fake it and act like I do know, and neither will I use $10 words in order to TRY and make a silly idea sound plausible, ala Duff Man.

It is one thing to claim that the central core "apparently vaporized". It's quite another to say that a mysterious unknown kind of nuke may have done it.

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   16:16:15 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Original_Intent, Obnoxicated (#24)

I guess they forgot to rehearse this one...

And Duff Man, my pics are more informative than your weird speculations.

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   16:23:10 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: RickyJ, Original_Intent, range, PSUSA (#22)

No he is not lying, you are taking his words out of context. He mentioned the radioactivity measured shortly after the towers fell and found it way too low to be from a nuclear bomb even a mini-one. He is measuring dust samples here for radioactivity many years after 9/11 and finds no radiation. He then compares that with sand around known nuclear explosions in the 40s which still today show high amounts of radioactivity.

But then he later writes this...

We found only background levels of alpha radionuclide activity by liquid scintillation counter analysis of all three samples. Beta activity was slightly elevated, but not more than twice the background level.

So which is it, "ZERO RADIOACTIVITY (meaning nothing above background)", or TWICE the background level?

As so far he discusses what SORT of markers should be present if a nuclear device were to have detonated, he is using information that pertains to KNOWN nuclear processes and materials. A 4th generation device may not even use known processes, and would very possibly utilize materials which leave a very different footprint.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   16:27:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: PSUSA (#27)

Have another beer Homer.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-08   16:27:22 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: PSUSA (#27)

Now THAT'S a funny gif! Anyone you know?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   16:29:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: FormerLurker (#28) (Edited)

Again you are taking words out of context. If you read the formatted PDF you would have known that this sample was not tested for radioactivity by Steven Jones many years after 9/11 , but rather by Paul J. Lioy shortly after 9/11 and that the results of these tests were not indicative of a nuclear explosion.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-08   16:56:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: PSUSA (#15)

You want to be a moderator? Ask Christine and see what she says.

I don't have to ask anyone about anything here.

And I have no desire to be a moderator.

I do find that threads like this and the forum as a whole click along quite well without the LP-type vituperation.

That's why a lot of us are here.

It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

randge  posted on  2011-03-08   16:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: randge (#32)

Normally I would just tell you to butt out.

But FL and I have had some good honest conversations. He (or she) knows that I have no problem with him / her. I did not call him or her stupid. I said that the question was stupid. Big difference there.

Face it, it was a stupid question.

Now, butt out.

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   17:09:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: RickyJ (#31)

Again you are taking words out of context. If you read the formatted PDF you would have known that this sample was not tested for radioactivity by Steven Jones many years after 9/11 , but rather by Paul J. Lioy shortly after 9/11 and that the results of these tests were not indicative of a nuclear explosion.

The very next sentence states "These very low levels of radioactive isotopes (radionuclides) in the WTC dust are by themselves sufficient to rule out the use of atomic bombs ".

Even in the formatted PDF, it's not entirely clear whether he's quoting from the specified study, or whether he means himself and others when he uses the word "we". In the following paragraph he states ZERO radioactivy beyond background was detected, when using the word "I" in the sentence.

What it comes down to is whether or not a 4th generation device were detonated can not be proven or disproven by applying criteria for KNOWN nuclear devices, since the process of detonation of such a device is UNKNOWN.

He even states that a KNOWN process CAN lead to room temperature fusion by the way of using muons, although the KNOWN ways of producing such a reaction would not be sufficient for producing the energy of a nuclear blast. I'd say perhaps there might be an UNKNOWN method, or perhaps a different process altogether which CAN.

From the article;

Note: controlled, even room-temperature “pure” fusion is possible using elementary particles known as muons, in muon-catalyzed fusion. See paper by the author in Nature 321: 127-133 (invited paper), also Rafelski and Jones in Scientific American, July 1987. The energy yields are not enough by muoncatalyzed fusion for commercial power generation (unfortunately) – nor for a nuclear bomb (fortunately).


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   17:25:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: RickyJ (#0)

Perhaps using the word "LYING" is a bit harsh. I'll change that to "misleading", perhaps inadvertently, perhaps not.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   17:27:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: PSUSA (#33)

Face it, it was a stupid question.

Your first question on this thread concerning flying pigs was a bit stupider than what I asked you. In fact, my question was more rhetorical than "stupid".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-08   17:29:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: FormerLurker (#36)

In fact, my question was more rhetorical than "stupid".

Well, so was mine.

,


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PSUSA  posted on  2011-03-08   17:34:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: PSUSA (#33)

Now, butt out.

Make me. ;]

It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

randge  posted on  2011-03-08   18:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Original_Intent (#8)

So, the upshot is that I am not wedded inextricably to any of the existing hypotheses as to the mechanics of the collapse beyond the fact that two airplanes whose fuel burned up in the first ten minutes do not account for the observed phenomena.

Thanks once again for a thoughtful response.

It's a tragedy what little hard evidence we have left. Another is that we cannot seem to agree what school of "experts" are taking the most comprehensive and objective look at this thing.

But, yes, we are agreed on the basics as you've stated them.

It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

randge  posted on  2011-03-08   19:22:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Original_Intent, RickyJ, randge, FormerLurker (#1)

The spires immediately before they vaporized.

Thermite?


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-08   20:24:19 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: wudidiz (#40)

The rabbit hole is DEEP, wudidiz.

It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

randge  posted on  2011-03-08   20:35:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: wudidiz (#40)

They did not vaporize, they fell. Why do you say they vaporize? There is no evidence for that whatsoever. The reason they fell late could be a slight problem with the timing of the thermite cutting charges. What do you possibly think could make them vaporize without any explosion seen?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-08   20:38:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: randge (#41)

The rabbit hole is DEEP, wudidiz.

Yes. I'm gonna post a vid article. Check it out.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-08   20:56:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: RickyJ (#42)

There is no evidence for that whatsoever.

There's video evidence. Google it.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-08   20:56:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: wudidiz (#44)

There's video evidence. Google it.

I have seen all those videos, it fell, it didn't vaporize.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-08   21:53:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: RickyJ, *9-11*, , *Humor-Weird News* (#45)

There's video evidence. Google it.

I have seen all those videos, it fell, it didn't vaporize.

Bullshit. You're playing games with the wrong guy now.

Check the 1 minute mark.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-08   22:13:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: wudidiz (#46)

It fell and smoke replaced it. Really, how do you think steel vaporizes without any sort of visible reaction?

You believe Fetzer, a philosopher, over Steven Jones, a physics expert? Fetzer still has his job while Steven Jones doesn't. Steven Jones ruffled some feathers with his stance on 9/11, while Fetzer is tolerated because he is a pure disinfo artist like Alex Jones.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-08   22:43:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: wudidiz (#46)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

Eric Stratton  posted on  2011-03-08   23:04:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: RickyJ (#47)

It fell and smoke replaced it. Really, how do you think steel vaporizes without any sort of visible reaction?

You believe Fetzer, a philosopher, over Steven Jones, a physics expert? Fetzer still has his job while Steven Jones doesn't. Steven Jones ruffled some feathers with his stance on 9/11, while Fetzer is tolerated because he is a pure disinfo artist like Alex Jones.

If I remember right, Fetzer thinks it was D.E.W.

It's Khalezov and others that think it's nukes.

Now, as you know, none of that matters. The evidence is what is important, not who says what about it.

How the hell do you propose "smoke" replaced it?

I don't know and don't need to explain how the steel vaporized or turned to dust, but I know what I saw. The spires disintegrated.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-09   0:29:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Eric Stratton (#48)

Holy smokes, ... NPI, ... but that is tremendously interesting!

You've never seen that before?


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-09   0:30:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: wudidiz (#49)

How the hell do you propose "smoke" replaced it?

Easy, it fell and the smoke rising up it replaced it as it fell.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-09   0:40:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: RickyJ (#51)

That doesn't make any sense. Imagining it isn't enough. The place where the spire(s) was is replaced by what looks to be (falling?) dust/vapor. Watch it at the one minute mark again.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-09   0:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: RickyJ, *9-11* (#51)

I challenge you that if we ping 10 4um members that agree it was controlled demolition and get them to watch the video I just previously posted, that most of them would agree with me that those spires disintegrated/vaporized/turnedtodust or whatever you want to call it.

But who cares anyway? How do we explain the damage to the vehicles I posted in images in the last related thread? How do we explain the pulverized concrete? The "meteor"? The molten lava or whatever it was? The mushroom cloud? The list goes on.....


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-09   0:52:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: wudidiz (#53) (Edited)

How do we explain the damage to the vehicles I posted in images in the last related thread?

That was caused buy the explosions in the towers pushing the debri out away from the footprint of the towers.

How do we explain the pulverized concrete?

Rapid heating of the metal prior to the collapse by the thermite also caused the concrete to get hot fast which could have caused the concrete to explode because of all the water contained in the concrete expanding at a rate faster than the concrete. That is one possibility and there are others, but nukes aren't one of them IMO due to the long lasting radioactivity they would produce that can't be hid. And even if they could somehow hide the radiation from a nuke, it would be overkill for a mere building collapse and not needed to produce the images and video that was recorded that day.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-09   1:28:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: wudidiz, all (#53)

can i ask why the flip it matters whether it was nuked or blown, fell with a plane or no, by whichever secret group? i do not quite understand the relevance to the big picture.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2011-03-09   4:29:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Artisan (#55)

If people believe the official government story that the towers came down due to the planes hitting them and the fires then it is much easier for them to buy the rest of the story that 19 hijackers did 9/11. To show that the buildings could not have come down that way proves beyond a reasonable doubt that our government didn't just let 9/11 happen, they made it happen. That's why it is important how the towers came down.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-09   5:42:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: wudidiz (#50)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

Eric Stratton  posted on  2011-03-09   5:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: RickyJ, wudidiz (#42)

They did not vaporize, they fell. Why do you say they vaporize?

First off, how can vertical steel columns "fall" straight down? Did the earth open up below them?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-09   7:19:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: RickyJ, wudidiz (#54)

And even if they could somehow hide the radiation from a nuke, it would be overkill for a mere building collapse and not needed to produce the images and video that was recorded that day.

Regular explosives from the top down would not have pulverized the entire building, and more than likely it would NOT have "fallen" straight down into its own footprint due to its height and the amount of mass.

If they wanted to ENSURE that there would be absolutely NO evidence left behind, and that the towers didn't topple over and destroy adjacent buildings, AND make it look to the general public that they fell due to the airplane impacts, exotic weaponry may have been the only sure-fire solution.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-09   7:25:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: FormerLurker (#59) (Edited)

Regular explosives from the top down would not have pulverized the entire building,

Enough of them could have done the job, they had unlimited resources, it's not like they were on a budget for this job. Explosive steel beam cutting nano-thermite charges are not conventional explosives. It is only mass produced by the US army. The abundant presence of this nano-thermite in WTC dust is another smoking gun that it was an inside job. We have enough evidence to get reasonable people to believe that it was an inside job. There is no reason to introduce to them evidence that we have no way of verifying the validity of such as a nuke which produces low to no radiation. The nano-thermite evidence is all we need, it doesn't matter if anything else was used to take the buildings down, nano-thermite proves our Army had a hand in 9/11.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-09   16:04:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: FormerLurker (#59)

If they wanted to ENSURE that there would be absolutely NO evidence left behind

If that was their goal they failed miserably by using nano-thermite.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-09   16:05:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: FormerLurker (#58)

First off, how can vertical steel columns "fall" straight down?

The same way the top part of the core fell straight down, the columns beneath them were cut with nano-thermite. The bottom of the tower had the thickest steel of the core and it stands to reason it took longer than the planners thought it would to cut through it so that's why part of the lower part of the core remained standing after the rest of the building had been demolished.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-09   22:24:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: RickyJ (#0) (Edited)

"People and glass as detectors for nuclear-bomb radiation Finally, people themselves become “detectors” for the radiations associated with nuclear bombs. Glass also is known to melt in the intense heat of a nuclear bomb blast."

"No observed melting of glass due to the collapse-process of the Towers."

Glass can melt anywhere from 900 degrees Farenheit to about the same as the melting point of iron and steel at around 2600-2800 degrees Farenheit or a bit higher for super-grade glass. Since Jones insists on extended molten metal temps for WTC steel, that raises the question of why indeed "No observed melting of glass due to the collapse-process of the Towers." Makes no sense if the WTC builders insisted on using super-grade glass and junk steel that ostensibly couldn't withstand a flash kerosene fire.

Jones is no "messianic" leader of 9/11 investigations, as some seem to view him. He is (along with his "study-buddy" or alter-ego, Hoffman) a hijacker and plagiarizer of years of work by 9/11 Truth Movement First Responders that he gives no credit to whlle calling himself a "synthesizer". Rather appropriate, imo, that his Los Alamos stomping grounds are in Diablo/Devil Canyon, yes? Yes. Where's his evidence that molten metal was flowing from a window down the side of a WTC building before it collapsed? He has no evidence of that, really, and no observed slag from any of the whatzit splashing against the building and cooling. All alleged thermite/nanothermite/thermate samples he claims to have are of suspect origins and chains of custody. Yet, he claims that there's no need to consider theories other than his "thermitics" because it could account for some molten metal and cancers may be be explained by something other than nukes -- which proves nothing except that he wants to steer people away from looking where he doesn't want them to and that he wants to control them to do what he has been "entrancing" them to do along: be "spellbound" to believe in "vanishing planes" because of his sci-fi gobbledygook for fast-tracking 9/11 Fund and insurance claims and whatnot, and be sure to turn against our entire military and America's system of government as if Israelis and their Ziobot agents are above and beyond any suspicion, except for maybe that limited-hangout guy, Silverstein.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2011-03-10   7:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: RickyJ (#61)

If that was their goal they failed miserably by using nano-thermite.

The fact that it was allowed to be found could well be a red herring I think. Even though it was found, has any investigative body been formed by Congress to look into it?

Of course not.

Even without evidence of the nano-thermite, a new investigation should have been launched simply due to the fact the 9/11 Commissioners themselves admit to be mislead, stonewalled, and outright lied to in terms of evidence and testimony.

With the obvious facts alone, including but not limited to the rate of collapse for the WTC towers and Bldg. 7, the impossibility of the Pentagon attack being done with a 757, the lack of VALID scientific analysis of the collapse of the towers, etc., a new investigation should have been launched.

That it hasn't already happened indicates there is strong pressure from the Puppetmasters to stay away from any investigation.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2011-03-10   9:26:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: GreyLmist (#63) (Edited)

Where's his evidence that molten metal was flowing from a window down the side of a WTC building before it collapsed? He has no evidence of that, really, and no observed slag from any of the whatzit splashing against the building and cooling.

He has visual evidence combined with the hard evidence of nano-thermite spheres found abundantly in dust samples taken from the destruction of the WTC towers. He knows the government is lying about it being aluminum pouring from the window because molten aluminum wouldn't have been orange in color, it would have been white. He knows that and so does Fetzer's nutty side kick Judy. A person was killed over evidence relating to this. Fetzer is the disinfo agent here, Jones is using nothing but science as far as I can tell and does give credit to previous researchers. Just look at who still has a job and who doesn't. Jones lost his job over this, Fetzer didn't.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-10   20:32:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: FormerLurker (#64)

Even without evidence of the nano-thermite, a new investigation should have been launched simply due to the fact the 9/11 Commissioners themselves admit to be mislead, stonewalled, and outright lied to in terms of evidence and testimony.

We can't rely on the government investigating itself. If there will be any justice it won't happen waiting for the current powers that be to give it since they are the ones who did 9/11. Justice for 9/11 can only be achieved through a mass revolt. A mass revolt can only be achieved by educating enough people about the solid evidence that our government had a hand in 9/11.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-10   20:39:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: GreyLmist (#63)

...he wants to steer people away from looking where he doesn't want them to and that he wants to control them...

Yeah, you just entered the paranoid nutty realm. Fetzer rubbing off on you?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2011-03-10   20:43:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: RickyJ (#67)

you just entered the paranoid nutty realm.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2011-03-11   4:04:11 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: RickyJ, Artisan (#56)

If people believe the official government story that the towers came down due to the planes hitting them and the fires then it is much easier for them to buy the rest of the story that 19 hijackers did 9/11. To show that the buildings could not have come down that way proves beyond a reasonable doubt that our government didn't just let 9/11 happen, they made it happen. That's why it is important how the towers came down.

Agreed.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:07:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: RickyJ, Original_Intent, randge, titorite, GreyLmist, Eric Stratton, PSUSA, *9-11*, *Black Ops - Psyops* (#67)

Update: The US Government’s Usage of Atomic Bombs - Domestic - WTC

By Ed Ward, MD


The Elevated Tritium Levels:

The "well below levels of concern to human exposure" and "7 times less than the EPA limit" of Tritium in the environment are in actuality 27 to 35 times higher than should have been found in one sample, and 21 to 28 times higher than should have been found in the other sample. In spite of this fact it was deemed that no other testing was needed. In spite of the fact that no amount of radiation is considered "safe", it is merely "acceptable". This shows proof that even in the same general area there were varying degrees of dilution of the 10 ml samples prior their being collected and tested. Note that there is no notation about the size of the pools the samples were taken from.

The first few sentences of this analysis report start out actually dealing with testing samples. The report gives a value of 0.164 nCi/Liter with a standard deviation of +/- 0.074 nCi/Liter for sewer water (at least about 25% higher than should have been found). WTC building 6 samples were determined to have 3.53 +/- 0.17 nCi/Liter and 2.83 +/- 0.15 nCi/Liter. Then the report goes into pages of information have nothing to do with the study - the WTC, terrorist attacks, a "box model" that seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with determining the degree of dilution present in various areas, or any area, for 30 million gallons - or more appropriately since the study uses liters as measurement - 120 million liters of water. Sixteen million liters of water were dispersed throughout the site by rain and firemen had to dilute the amount of tritium present by varying degrees of 16 million liters of water. To find out the original concentration multiply the amount found per liter by any number from one to 16 million. Of course this completely ignores the other 104 million liters that may or may not have been dispersed as thoroughly as the 16 million liters previously noted.

The standard range for environmental Tritium is 0.1 to 0.2 nCi/Liter. Testing in areas other than the WTC revealed levels (less than) < 0.13 nCi/Liter. Ignoring the levels found in WTC 6 which were 30 times what should have been found, the sewer water contained 0.164 minus the standard environment range of 0.13 there is at least 0.034 more activity than should have been found after having been diluted 120 million times. This does not count the other areas of contamination levels inside the WTC that were 20 times that amount of Tritium activity and were diluted by varying amounts of 16 million liters of water.

The value of Tritium activity of sewerage water was reported three times - each time with a different standard deviation - 0.074, 0.74 and 74. The values for Tritium activity of samples in WTC 6 were reported twice with a different standard deviation - 0.17, 0.15 and later as - 17, 15. Without further investigation as to the correct standard deviation value, the data is useless. Perhaps, if the "scientists" had spent a little more time on reporting/evaluating what they were supposed to be doing rather than hedging, leading and biasing the information, they might have been able to report relevant and correct information. Insignificant things like the volume of the pools from which the samples were taken, actually taking more samples from the site than away from the site, or using the "box model" for evaluating the amount of dilution of samples from different areas. All of the facts presented regarding Tritium were taken from this government report.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:08:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: RickyJ, All (#70)

The Mysterious Craters:

A thorough examination the debris of the World Trade Center (WTC) buildings reveals further evidence of massive power and heat - a thermonuclear blast. WTC 6 was 8 stories high. The total height of its central debris of the crater was about 30 to 50 feet below sea level and about 120 feet wide. Eight stories of building collapses and leaves a hole at least 30 feet deep.



Light Detection and Ranging - LIDAR displays from NOAA - Dark Green = 0 to -30 feet.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:10:05 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: All (#71)

Another LIDAR map shows the central portion depth of WTC 6 in the range of -35 to -55 feet. Besides the crater in WTC 6, note the two craters that surround WTC 1 (perimeters are 30 feet deep and 250 to 300 feet wide) and WTC 2 (perimeters are 30 feet deep and more than 300 feet wide - some overlapping of the explosions). WTC 1 - 110 stories tall - debris pile 6 stories with a 30 feet crater surrounding it. WTC 2 - 110 stories tall - debris pile 6 stories high with a 30 feet crater surrounding it. WTC 3 (Marriott) - 22 stories tall - debris pile 3 stories. WTC 4 - 9 stories tall - debris pile 3 stories (the only building that is even close to its correct debris height). WTC 6 - 8 stories tall - debris pile MINUS 3 stories. WTC 7 - 47 stories tall - debris pile 7 stories. The New York times has a crude interactive map placing the crater depth at -30 feet. According to the official story, beams from WTC 1 collapsed the building. However, the collapse did not make a debris pile. It made a debris hole. (BTW, no supposed unspecified vague ‘scalar’ weapon can make these massive craters beneath intact debris.)


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:11:05 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: RickyJ, Eric Stratton, Original_Intent, All (#72)

The 16 Inches Thick Steel Cores that Melt into Limp Noodles and Partially Vaporize:
After the outer structure of WTC 2 falls, a portion of the central core remains standing for almost 25 seconds then it appears to melt and vaporize. Two videos of the above scene can be found in "The Strange Collapse of the Spire." The second video with a clearer view of the spire’s demise can also be seen. The cores at the base of the WTCs are 16" thick steel rectangles - each side is 4" thick. (BTW, there is no conventional explosive or thermate combination that can produce this effect. Nor can any nanothermate, superthermate, super-duper thermate and explosives combination produce this effect. However, this reporter is anxiously awaiting the "scientific" introduction of invisible, invisibly acting, super-duper, double top secret, stealth-micro-nanothermate as the cause of what clearly is a thermonuclear post Flash effect.)


Further evidence of tremendous heat can be seen in this 8 ton 6" thick I beam that is bent like a horseshoe without warping, kinking or splitting. A more comprehensive view of the I beam with an informative audio track can be seen here. (Again, there is no way for thermate to create this horseshoe, unless it is "miraculous" thermate. Nor, is there any unspecified vague "scalar" weapon that can do this even if the beam was isolated and not covered by some degree of 110 floors of concrete and steel.) Clearly, this is residual steel that has been exposed to massive and intense heat that is entirely consistent with a thermonuclear explosion and virtually nothing else can produce this single effect, let alone this and ALL the other irregularities.


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:13:42 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: All (#73)

EdWardMD: 9/11/01 Attacks Were An Inside/Outside Job Proven Referenced Evidence of 4th Generation Micro Nukes in WTC1, WTC2, & WTC6

Thermate, C4, Micro Nukes and 911 Was an Inside/Outside Job Is The Only Proven Theory that Complies with All of the Evidence in One Proven Theory.

To date, not one valid referenced fact has been established to refute a single proven fact in about 300 references presented in the article, let alone the primary evidence for micro nukes in the WTC.

1. Three Massive WTC Craters - See us gov LIDAR proof: www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/03/05/ward.htm

2. Five Acres of WTC Land Brought to Seering Temperatures in a Few Hours by an 'Anaerobic, Chlorine Fueled "Fire" - Impossible by Basic Laws of Physics. See us gov Thermal Images proof: www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/03/05/ward.htm

3. Tritium Levels 55 Times (normal) Background Levels assessed a numerical value of 'traces' and 'of no human concern'. See us gov (DOE report on Tritium) proof: groups.yahoo.com/group/EdWard-MD/message/141

4. An Impossible "Fire" (Combustion Process). See Laws of Physics for Fire/Combustion Process and Dr. Cahill's data on 'anaerobic incineration'. rense.com/general77/newlaws.htm

5. And More Proprietary Evidence

Ed Ward, MD - 911 Related Articles - Chronological:

Bombs in the WTC Buildings Proves Nothing to Racist-Fascist Bigots www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/08/21/ward.htm

Micro-Nukes in the WTC www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/09/25/ward.htm General evidence for inside job and background of micro nukes

Update: Micro-Nukes at the WTC - Main micro nuke evidence presented in this article. www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/03/05/ward.htm

Update: Proves Micro Nukes in the WTC www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/04/16/ward.htm

Verifying the Source of WTC Tritium Levels that Are 55 Times "Background Levels" www.rense.com/general76/wtc.htm

Prof. Jones Denies, Ignores, Misrepresents Proven Tritium Levels 55 Times Normal Background Levels www.rense.com/general77/levels.htm

Steven Jones Replies To Dr. Ed Ward www.rense.com/general77/ward.htm

Prof Jones Gladly Assists Testing Unaffected WTC Items www.rense.com/general77/profjh.htm

Update: Factual Evaluation of the DOE WTC Tritium Report Data - 911 groups.yahoo.com/group/EdWard-MD/message/141

Breakdown of the WTC Rain and Firehose Water - 4 Million Gallons of Dilution groups.yahoo.com/group/EdWard-MD/message/136

Prof Jones Accepts Validity of Stable Isotopic Testing For Neutron Activation of Fusion Reactions groups.yahoo.com/group/EdWard-MD/message/142

Note: According to Dr. Deagle, he has been unable to find anyplace in the world that will perform the needed tests on the WTC sample.

Hello!?! 48,000 Curies of Tritium Would Have to Have Burned to Leave the 3.53/2.83 nCi/L of WTC Tritium Residue - This concentration is almost equal to the highest concentrations of environmental contamination of the 1960's after Thousands of Megaton Nukes were 'tested'. 55 TIMES BACKGROUND AND ALMOST EQUAL TO THE HIGHEST RECORDED LEVELS OF THE 60'S IS CALLED TRACES - Dr. Jones ceased response. This is not science, ignoring and denying 55 x what should have been found and that was after 4 million liters of dilution. Steven Jones, the DOE report and the BYU crew CALL THIS TRACES. groups.yahoo.com/group/EdWard-MD/message/147

Note: This is based on evidence in which some of glass Tritium containers were not even melted by fire. All of the Tritium found was only in/on the unmelted glass. In any fire that can melt glass, ALL of tritium escapes into the atmosphere, unless water is poured over the source DURING the initial fire.)

Ed Ward, MD


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:17:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: wudidiz (#70)

So, we return to the Mexican Stand-Off - two sides looking at the same data and reaching two sets of conclusions.

I thought this was interesting: "All of the facts presented regarding Tritium were taken from this government report."

So, the government who fudged other reports is to be trusted on this data?

We are still returned to the fact that independent testing was not only not allowed but actively prevented. And NYC passed an ordnance prohibiting Geiger Counters in the area.

Also is the molten metal recovered 8 weeks after the buildings were brought down. The only thing I can think of that could do that is radioactivity.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-13   3:18:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#75)

Yeah. It's almost as though perhaps they might have used some sort of unconventional explosive device(s) other than say, thermite.

Unless of course one simply doesn't want to believe that.

FL, please look at my posts here starting at #70.

This science stuff is not for me.

;)


No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)

wudidiz  posted on  2011-03-13   3:39:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: wudidiz (#73)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

Eric Stratton  posted on  2011-03-13   16:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: wudidiz, Ricky the Rat, RicketJSquirrely, RickyJ, FormerLurker, Eric Stratton, HAPPY2BEME-4UM, randge, all (#76)

Yeah. It's almost as though perhaps they might have used some sort of unconventional explosive device(s) other than say, thermite.

Unless of course one simply doesn't want to believe that.

Too often people's analysis is too tightly constrained by what they want to believe rather than by simply asking what do the observed data tell us.

Now, we can still wind up on blind trails and false leads, but we have at least eliminated one aberration from the computation i.e., "it cannot possibly be that and so therefore it isn't". Which is research by decree not evidence. It is an "arbitrary" and whenever you allow an arbitrary into an investigation and analysis you are going to wind up with an aberrated and invalid conclusion.

As I have stated before I believe that there were likely multiple technologies at play and some of them may be completely unknown in the public domain. We really do not know what is available behind the black curtain of deep secrecy in the above top secret world. We get hints, and occasional small leaks, but much of it lies in the realm of "you don't know what you don't know".

Little Ricky can have all the hissy fits and childish snits he wants but in the end the evidence remains to speak for itself.

The following elements still stand out in my mind (among others) as being salient and suggestive:

All of the structural steel rubble was scooped up, while under armed guard the entire time, and then quickly shipped out of the country. Domestic companies which offered higher bids on the scrap steel than the Chinese were ignored and very little, no doubt carefully examined before release, was allowed into the domestic scrap steel industry.

Repeated attempts by government "organs" to misdirect and omit evidence. First we had the Magickal Jet Fuel, which when that was demolished, was replaced by "office fires", and that in turn was discarded when proved untenable. This included omission in FEMA and NIST reports of the immensely strong inner core from their drawings and calculations, and instead we were provided with Thomas Eager's B.S. about pancakes - as though the cores did not exist. To this day Eager will not defend his thesis in a public forum against a knowledgeable opponent from the opposite camp.

The FACT that six members of the 911 Commission have come forward and are on the public record stating that they were systematically lied to and evidence withheld from the Commission. Their report is thus hopelessly tainted and false.

The rate of collapse of the buildings, despite repeated shill attempts to obfuscate the issue, remain anomalous. As well is the manner of collapse which with the amount of video we now have does not support the pancakes and syrup of Thomas Eager who teaches at CIA connected M.I.T..

The pulverization of the construction concrete into microfine dust is not accounted for in any of the main Official Fairy Tales nor in much of the alternative views. That remains an interesting sticking point and I think key in determining what, if any, exotic technologies were used to control the destruction of the towers.

The curious fact that not only did the female fiend Christine Todd Whitman lie her filthy ass off about the environmental hazards around Ground Zero, and the subsequent rapid die off of first responders due to cancers and respiratory ailments, but that radiation readings were not allowed around Ground Zero up to and including the passage of an ordnance by Rudy Ghouliani's NYC City Council forbidding the use of Geiger Counters in NYC. Why outlaw something if there is nothing to find? I think that ties in to the steel that was rapidly shipped out of the country to be destroyed. There is something that would have been anomalous which would have suggested a path that the controller's do not want us to be able to follow.

Also unaccounted for in most of the theorizing is the molten metal recovered as much as 8 weeks after the collapse. Nano-Thermites do not account for that, nor does Magickal Jet Fool.

So, the evidence continues to push me toward thinking there were some exotic technologies used to initiate, control, and insure the complete collapse of the towers.

Also interesting, and I don't know for sure where it fits in is that I recently heard one guest on the Rense Program assert that not only were much of the towers unoccupied at the time of 911, which is documented, they were in large sections completely hollow and not finished for occupation. I have no confirming source of this at this point in time. However, if true it suggests that the towers may have been built with 911 in mind from the beginning. That is an interesting thought.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-13   16:59:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Original_Intent (#78)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

Eric Stratton  posted on  2011-03-13   17:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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