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Title: So that's what they mean by the “War on Poverty”
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URL Source: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... hats_what_they_mean_by_the.php
Published: Mar 18, 2011
Author: PZ Myers
Post Date: 2011-03-22 17:25:22 by CadetD
Keywords: cashless, society
Views: 1079
Comments: 91
Minnesota is leading the way. Our Rethuglicans have figured out how to end poverty: by making it illegal to have money if you're poor? Wait, that makes no sense. Minnesota Republicans are pushing legislation that would make it a crime for people on public assistance to have more $20 in cash in their pockets any given month. Lest you think our most contemptible lawmakers have no heart at all, consider that this is the generous version of their earlier plan. This represents a change from their initial proposal, which banned them from having any money at all. I'm not sure what they're thinking. If they're so poor, the only way they could have any money is if they stole it from a rich guy? Or something? Maybe they're just setting up a perfect Catch 22: now the police can roust someone who looks poor, and if they've got no money, send them to jail for vagrancy; if they've got more than $20, arrest them for possession of illegal currency. Some people don't believe me. Here's the link to the proposed legislation. They want to give all benefits via a debit card so they can restrict and monitor purchases. And if this is their sole source of income, that means they're only allowed a cash allowance of $20/month. Control, control, control. Section 1. [256.9870] ELECTRONIC BENEFIT TRANSFER DEBIT CARD. Subdivision 1. Electronic benefit transfer or EBT debit card. (a) Electronic benefit transfer (EBT) debit cardholders in the general assistance program and the Minnesota supplemental aid program under chapter 256D and programs under chapter 256J are prohibited from withdrawing cash from an automatic teller machine or receiving cash from vendors with the EBT debit card. The EBT debit card may only be used as a debit card. (b) Beginning July 1, 2011, cash benefits for programs listed under paragraph (a) must be issued on a separate EBT card with the head of household's name printed on the card. The card must also state that "It is unlawful to use this card to purchase tobacco products or alcoholic beverages." This card must be issued within 30 calendar days of an eligibility determination. During the initial 30 calendar days of eligibility, a recipient may have cash benefits issued on an EBT card without the recipient's name printed on the card. This card may be the same card on which food support is issued and does not need to meet the requirements of this section. (c) Notwithstanding paragraph (a), EBT cardholders may opt to have up to $20 per month accessible via automatic teller machine or receive up to $20 cash back from a vendor. Poster Comment: http://wonkette.com/440932/minnesota-republicans-to-outlaw-poor-people-having-money; Link to legislation: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0171.1.html&session=ls87
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#19. To: Luke The Spook, FormerLurker (#18)
I do not disagree. However, how many of the small business licenses, taxes, restrictions, and zoning laws existed while this country was building? No, it is not impossible for someone to start a business, but it takes a lot of knowledge of the bureaucracy and stupid laws to keep one alive. I don't like welfare, I don't like forced hand-outs. I also don't like seeing people grubbing in garbage cans and children starving on the side of the road. The laws we have now have been set up to FORCE people to work for someone else. To work for those multinationals. Except that now, like a sick game of musical chairs, the jobs have all been shipped out of the country - intentionally to set up this situation. A knee jerk reaction is not a solution. I don't have an easy solution, politically, that is going to solve it. Ideally taxes would be cut to a tenth of what they now are and most of the stupid counterproductive rules and regulations done away with. Realistically, do you honestly see a way to do that quickly so that we don't wind up with hundreds of thousands of children starving to death?
It's fairly clear to me what they are doing. They are inciting civil unrest, hoping to usher in martial law.
Thing is, back when this country was "built", there was land for the taking. With that land, one could grow food, build a house and a barn, and raise livestock. For the more industrious, more food could be grown than needed, and sold to the people who didn't grow their own. If coal were found, whoever found it could dig it up and sell it. There was practically no limit as to what one could do back when this country was first founded, a person could take whatever land they wanted, as long as they were willing and able to defend it. Well there WAS the little problem with the fact the people who were here first, the Native Americans, had ALREADY claimed that land, but that didn't stop the early settlers from taking it anyways. And oh yeah, almost forgot to mention that the British crown wanted their share of whatever was worth having.
What we have now doesn't work. It can't be sustained, economically or morally, and the planet can't sustain it. So. we suck it up and take the pain. It won't be easy, however, the longer it goes on, the worse it ultimately will be. Those who have the will to survive, will survive. They will find a way. Creative, imaginative humans will survive and prosper. I really enjoyed Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". Maybe it was prophetic. Perhaps that's the answer.
The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions. - George Carlin
I always like your input on these type topics. adds a dimension often missing on 4um. Myself, theoretically i'm all for stopping gov handouts...the MOMENT that the .gov stops stealing our $ thru compulsory "income taxes". Before that point, F 'em.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 The GOPee Pees have no problem with millions of their cheap labor illegals getting welfare. When is the Civil War gonna finally come?
There are few people here that have not benefited from some government give away program.
Luke the spook is well named. Yes I see it all the time the wellfare folks buying booze and cigs and rib eyes. And chatting on their I phones!!! You betchea. Wink. What a load of crap.
Yes indeed. The Koch brothers are trembling.
That´s the ¨free market¨. HaHa.
O spare me you made up Bull shit.
I enjoyed Atlas Shrugged too! At the time it was written Ayn Rand identified the capitalists as "Atlas" and had them shrug off the worthless socialistic society that was feeding off them, by packing up their operations and disappearing. Today, it is the other way around isn't it? We are slaves to the corporations. Granted there are those losers who feed off the workers, but we are all slaves and the Federal Reserve is cracking the whip. To-day, the workers are "Atlas," and we need to shrug off the corporations with their unending culture of greed and corruption. If we all went on strike and disappeared into the wordwork, the whole dirty system would collapse.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
After all it's not like we have more important thieves to worry about like the banksters and the matter of 17 Trillion plus. After all those guys at Goldmine Sacks earned those multimillion dollar bonuses and NYC is just sooooooooo expensive. Hank Paulson, one year after he was Sec of Treasury made FIVE BILLION DOLLARS . No problem with Luke the Shill with that. Hes pissed that maybe some smuck got a quart of beer that he was not legal. What a fucnnnk ass.
the legislation proposed in the original article above would never be upheld because it's illegal & no cop could enforce it anyway. they cant walk around demanding to see what's in people's wallets. that is absurd.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 Bankers. Simple. Dump the Non-Federal/No Reserve if a paper currency is used it is backed by gold and silver. AND not the SDR or another Amero type thing. Illegal aliens. Only Lawyers and Politicians don't understand the work "illegal". They should get a one way trip back to the border. The border should be secured. Boot to the head.
Asshollllle spooks work for the Mom and Pops. HaHa. wxposed assssholllle.
I agree. seems Luke likes the idea of America becoming a third world nation, with him wearing the spurs.
Get some depth, read more than shallow romantic comic books. And experience some real life.
And of course he "earned" all of that and it was not a payback for official favors. And Ted Bundy was a poor misunderstood kid. I would be just as happy to see it go back to the way it was before food stamps. The USDA Food Program supplied US Grown Products that were surplus in sufficient quantities that kept people from hunger. It wasn't fancy but it was edible and nutritious - no Doritos and No Beer. However, it was decided that the Food Stamp Program cost less and required fewer government workers to administer it. So, the USDA Food Program was replaced with food stamps. I do have quibbles. I don't think it should be possible to buy junk food on food stamps, but otherwise I don't favor starving people to death either.
A great book that goes over the heads of the leftist peebrains
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Damn Straight! Ayn Rand - "All for Me and Me for Me". Unidimensional, limited vision, and a great saleswoman. While Capitalism has its virtues, and is much superior to socialism, it is not without flaw. And the type of tunnel vision of Ayn Rand appeals to a certain class of shallow thinker who does not look beyond their own personal advantage.
Rand would call that a looters point of view,(and not to be patronizing) but I know you're smarter than that. I'm pretty sure you've read the book, right? That's all you got out of it?
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
The churches pay no taxes. They were first in line when it came to getting a free ride.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Not at all! Ayn Rand admired competence above all else. The competent individual is usually able to take care of themselves and their dependents. They are not a burden on society, and she believed that such individuals should not be burdened by those who are incompetent and can't or won't take care of themselves. She particularly despised people who got into responsible positions because they knew someone in the bureaucracy and then screwed everything up because they didn't have a clue. She believed there would be no need for welfare if people were taking care of their own problems and their own burdens. She called this The Virtue of Selfishness.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Eloquently spoken...bump it all.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
My problem with Ayn Rand, to ease off on the sarcasm, is that her viewpoint is sound from the point of view of the individual in isolation from the rest of humanity. The problem is that "no man, or woman, is an island". While I don't like welfare programs I am a pragmatist and I would like to think not without humanitarian impulses. My preference would be for a system of private charity such as we had at one time. However, the governmental structure, and economic oppression which has been installed and systematized by the Banksters and Psychiatrists has made that impossible - in the short term. The Randian viewpoint in practical strict application would result in the kind of society that Britain had through the 1800's. Hobbesian, privilege and plenty for the well connected and well heeled and a Hobbesian existence for everyone else - nasty, brutish, and short. I don't like socialism because it is rightly categorized as parasitic - where one segment of society subsists on the work of others. The problem we face currently is that we have a system which has been rigged so that it is becoming increasingly difficult for an individual to start a small business of their own. And the IRS was caught targeting small business for their audit shakedowns. In Oregon you even now need a license from the state to cut lawns and do yard work. With an unemployment rate approaching 1 in 4 it is an unfortunate reality that under the current contrived situation if there was not some form of food program there would be people dying of starvation amidst wealth.
The problem is that there is no virtue in selfishness. I admire competence as well, but the reality is that not all people are of equal ability. In a sane society the more able end up in the higher positions and the less able are still accorded a survivable situation. That is in an ideal world. We do not have an ideal world and people do not live in isolation from one another. In looking at the current scene I deal in realities not theoretical constructs. In reality we have a rotten and corrupt political system, and a population which is largely apathetic. That is the reality. We have an economic system that is increasingly controlled by a very few for their own selfish benefit. So, much for the virtue of selfishness.
I disagree. That's exactly the type of system Rand despised. In Atlas Shrugged the heroes were not "well connected", just the opposite until the dropped out and make their own society. Again, what Rand warned about. All those unionized gov workers making the life of producers difficult while they watch the clock and count their juicy pensions.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Again, the exact society Rand warned about in Shrugged.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Ayn Rand wrote for her time and we live in our time so I agree with you to a certain extent. In these days the lesson we can take from Atlas Shrugged, is that TPTB cannot survive without our co-operation. WE ARE THE MODERN DAY ATLAS IF WE TAKE OUR POWER BACK. It will not be without pain, suffering and loss. We would need to help one another. Let's bug out!
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Only if they're a 501(c)(3) business. Then, they're also prohibited from interjecting themselves into politics. You can thank LBJ for that little shenanigan he worked out with the IRS. Lod, please comment, you've got some insight on LBJ.
__________________________________________________________ Again, the exact society Rand warned about in Shrugged. I'm sure she saw what was coming. It was becoming apparent to the very perceptive even then. I guess my main point is not that I disagree with getting people off of the public teat but that in the current sick morass it is increasingly being made difficult, intentionally, for anyone to survive independent of Der State. My concern is a purely humanitarian one and is predicated only on the current scene i.e., I don't want to see mass starvation because there is no way for people to make a living. Being an entrepreneur is great, and starting a business is fine. I believe people should make their own way, but in the current mess cutting the net for the bottom while not tackling first the 800 pound gorilla is taking an easy and defenseless target - kind of like throwing puppies off a cliff.
Ayn Rand wrote for her time and we live in our time so I agree with you to a certain extent. In these days the lesson we can take from Atlas Shrugged, is that TPTB cannot survive without our co-operation. WE ARE THE MODERN DAY ATLAS IF WE TAKE OUR POWER BACK. It will not be without pain, suffering and loss. We would need to help one another. Let's bug out! Thank you. You do understand my nuance. It is not that I favor, or even like, social welfare programs it is that in the current manufactured scene war is being conducted upon the individual. At this time we need the basic subsistance programs to keep the society from shattering. The lunatics are running the asylum - literally.
That is not a sane society O.I., nor an ideal world. That is the kind of society that should be avoided at all costs. You are still advocating a society where the CAN! DO! and those who CAN'T! LIVE OFF THE DOERS! Are you suggesting that the less able should be afforded jobs such as maids, landscapers, hewers of wood? A sane society is one where the able take care of the less able members of their own families. That way, no-one else has to take care of them. That is not living in isolation from one another, that is THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS and that is the true definition of competence and sanity.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Everyone is capable of doing something. I am not suggesting that the less able should freeload. Just that in accord to merit and ability the more able, in a sane society, rise to the more responsible positions and the less able work at those tasks which they are able to competently do. There is dignity in work and in making one's own way - being productive. It is like the comment of Oliver Wendell Holmes - "all pursuits are great when greatly pursued". Living off of your family is no real difference from drawing a welfare check. Because some are more able does not require that those less able do nothing. Each of us is responsible for our own condition. It is just an acknowledgment of reality - all may be equal before the law but not all are equal in ability.
I am thinking more of the disabled than the less able. The point is that they should not be a burden on society. "Each of us is responsible for our own condition." Tsk, tsk, tsk. That is getting dangerously close to the VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS. By the way. It has occurred to me that there are whole families of incompetents, that may not be able to take care of their own. Ayn Rand appreciated a good hamburger and included anyone in any line of work, in her philosophy, as long as they were competent.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
That's a red herring and a TOTALLY separate issue. The monetary system in the country is nothing but a ponzi scam. The fact is that STEALING from one family to give to another is STEALING...and it's WRONG. Isn't that the very definition of COMMUNISM?? If you came over to my house at STOLE 50% of my earnings you'd go to prison...how can you delegate authority you don't have to a government to do something illegal for you to do??? People are teetering on the edge, and a lot are barely making it because the government, and apparently people like you, think it's OK to confiscate money that's THEIRS!
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin
By the sweat of his brow digging ditches for the sewage lines for the village.
In Henery VIII´s day about a hundred families owned over 70% of England, and they aimed to keep it that way by use of "legitimate violence". This is where the AR´s superfical romanticisim will get you. It is a comic book, just slightly more sophisticated than Jughead and Archie. Sorry guys. I like it too - when I was seventeen. BTY - I am considered wealthy by most national standards, and I can identify with being saddened by the decisions of the poor, etc, but unless you want a society of Hank Paulsons and friends raping YOU AND YOUR FAMLIES, consider the lessons of economic. Edward Gibbons might be a fair start. I can assure he would easily recognize AR writing for the self centered, juvanile clap trap that it is.
A couple of the flaws is that it is first an egocentric worldview that presumes divine isolation from the needs and wants of others is possible. It also presumes that everyone who accumulates wealth is "good" by virtue of accumulating wealth. The means by which wealth is accumulated is given slipshod treatment at best. I lean toward the libertarian end of the spectrum, but I am a realist. The reality of human behavior has to be taken into account. Not everyone who accumulates wealth and position has a high regard for their fellow man. Witness the Boosch Fambly and good ol' Barry Sewertoro.
Comments (60 - 91) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestSomething for you to consider. This nation wasn't built on "having a job", it was built on creating a job, doing a job, not working for some multinational corporation. I have faith in the people in this country who want to work, not the parasites.
#20. To: Original_Intent (#17)
Exactly. And the really sick thing is employers are intentionally avoiding the long term unemployed for whatever strange reasoning.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#21. To: Luke The Spook, Original_Intent (#18)
This nation wasn't built on "having a job", it was built on creating a job, doing a job, not working for some multinational corporation.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#22. To: Original_Intent (#19)
Realistically, do you honestly see a way to do that quickly so that we don't wind up with hundreds of thousands of children starving to death?
#23. To: FormerLurker (#7)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#24. To: CadetD (#0)
#25. To: Original_Intent (#15)
#26. To: Luke The Spook (#2)
I get behind welfare recipients at the grocery store, their basket is filled with cuts of meat that I can't afford. They have candy, soft drinks, ice cream to the top of the basket. They pull out their "Lone Star" card and bingo!, it's on me. Then they set their cigarettes, beer and wine up and pull out cash to pay for that. All the time they are chatting on an IPhone that costs at least $300.00. I guess I don't really have a problem with what's being proposed. Welfare recipients should ONLY have access to healthy food, nothing else, and if they can afford beer, wine, cigarettes, etc, they can afford their own food.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#27. To: Freedomsnotfree (#5)
The free ride is about to be over and it's about time. Stealing from one group of people, to give to another, is an abomination we have played into for far to long.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#28. To: FormerLurker (#7)
BTW, do you feel as strongly about this for oil companies who get billions of dollars in subsidies (ie. corporate welfare) and tax breaks each and every year? Should we restrict them to only making a $20 profit over cost each month?
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#29. To: Luke The Spook (#11)
I do missionary work in Central America. Those people don't have welfare!
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#30. To: Luke The Spook (#22)
I really enjoyed Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". Maybe it was prophetic. Perhaps that's the answer.
#31. To: Original_Intent (#15)
That's right! Let them eat cake.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#32. To: Cynicom (#25)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#33. To: Luke The Spook (#16)
. Also, Sorry, I miss spoke, I can afford pretty much whatever I want, because I planned for a crash.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#34. To: Luke The Spook (#18)
b, doing a job, not working for some multinational corporation.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#35. To: Original_Intent (#19)
outs. I also don't like seeing people grubbing in garbage cans and children starving on the side of the road.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#36. To: Luke The Spook (#22)
I really enjoyed Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". Maybe it was prophetic.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#37. To: tom007 (#31)
Hank Paulson, one year after he was Sec of Treasury made FIVE BILLION DOLLARS .
Hes pissed that maybe some smuck got a quart of beer that he was not legal.
#38. To: Luke The Spook, Original_Intent (#22)
I really enjoyed Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged".
#39. To: Flintlock (#38)
#40. To: Original_Intent (#39)
Ayn Rand appeals to a certain class of shallow thinker who does not look beyond their own personal advantage.
#41. To: Luke The Spook (#11)
The churches are close to the population. They know who needs assistance, and who's looking for a free ride
#42. To: Original_Intent (#39)
Ayn Rand - "All for Me and Me for Me".
#43. To: angK (#42)
#44. To: Flintlock (#40)
#45. To: angK (#42)
She called this The Virtue of Selfishness.
#46. To: Original_Intent (#44)
The Randian viewpoint in practical strict application would result in the kind of society that Britain had through the 1800's. Hobbesian, privilege and plenty for the well connected and well heeled and a Hobbesian existence for everyone else - nasty, brutish, and short.
The problem we face currently is that we have a system which has been rigged so that it is becoming increasingly difficult for an individual to start a small business of their own. And the IRS was caught targeting small business for their audit shakedowns. In Oregon you even now need a license from the state to cut lawns and do yard work.
#47. To: Original_Intent (#45)
In reality we have a rotten and corrupt political system, and a population which is largely apathetic. That is the reality. We have an economic system that is increasingly controlled by a very few for their own selfish benefit.
#48. To: Original_Intent (#44)
I don't like socialism because it is rightly categorized as parasitic - where one segment of society subsists on the work of others. The problem we face currently is that we have a system which has been rigged so that it is becoming increasingly difficult for an individual to start a small business of their own
#49. To: angK, Lod (#41)
The churches pay no taxes. They were first in line when it came to getting a free ride.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#50. To: Flintlock (#47)
In reality we have a rotten and corrupt political system, and a population which is largely apathetic. That is the reality. We have an economic system that is increasingly controlled by a very few for their own selfish benefit.
#51. To: angK (#48)
I don't like socialism because it is rightly categorized as parasitic - where one segment of society subsists on the work of others. The problem we face currently is that we have a system which has been rigged so that it is becoming increasingly difficult for an individual to start a small business of their own
#52. To: Original_Intent (#45)
In a sane society the more able end up in the higher positions and the less able are still accorded a survivable situation. That is in an ideal world. We do not have an ideal world and people do not live in isolation from one another.
#53. To: angK (#52)
That is not a sane society O.I., nor an ideal world. That is the kind of society that should be avoided at all costs. You are still advocating a society where the CAN! DO! and those who CAN'T! LIVE OFF THE DOERS! Are you suggesting that the less able should be afforded jobs such as maids, landscapers, hewers of wood?
#54. To: Original_Intent (#53)
Living off of your family is no real difference from drawing a welfare check. Because some are more able does not require that those less able do nothing. Each of us is responsible for our own condition.
#55. To: Original_Intent (#15)
To hell with the food stamp recipients - who cares if they can't find anything with the unemployment rate, the real rate, hovering around 22% (and higher in my area). After all there are a lot of good garbage cans to raid.
#56. To: Freedomsnotfree (#55)
(Edited)
#57. To: Original_Intent (#37)
And of course he "earned" all of that and it was not a payback for official favors.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#58. To: Original_Intent (#44)
The Randian viewpoint in practical strict application would result in the kind of society that Britain had through the 1800's.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#59. To: tom007 (#58)
.
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