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Title: So that's what they mean by the “War on Poverty”
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URL Source: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... hats_what_they_mean_by_the.php
Published: Mar 18, 2011
Author: PZ Myers
Post Date: 2011-03-22 17:25:22 by CadetD
Keywords: cashless, society
Views: 1219
Comments: 91
Minnesota is leading the way. Our Rethuglicans have figured out how to end poverty: by making it illegal to have money if you're poor? Wait, that makes no sense. Minnesota Republicans are pushing legislation that would make it a crime for people on public assistance to have more $20 in cash in their pockets any given month. Lest you think our most contemptible lawmakers have no heart at all, consider that this is the generous version of their earlier plan. This represents a change from their initial proposal, which banned them from having any money at all. I'm not sure what they're thinking. If they're so poor, the only way they could have any money is if they stole it from a rich guy? Or something? Maybe they're just setting up a perfect Catch 22: now the police can roust someone who looks poor, and if they've got no money, send them to jail for vagrancy; if they've got more than $20, arrest them for possession of illegal currency. Some people don't believe me. Here's the link to the proposed legislation. They want to give all benefits via a debit card so they can restrict and monitor purchases. And if this is their sole source of income, that means they're only allowed a cash allowance of $20/month. Control, control, control. Section 1. [256.9870] ELECTRONIC BENEFIT TRANSFER DEBIT CARD. Subdivision 1. Electronic benefit transfer or EBT debit card. (a) Electronic benefit transfer (EBT) debit cardholders in the general assistance program and the Minnesota supplemental aid program under chapter 256D and programs under chapter 256J are prohibited from withdrawing cash from an automatic teller machine or receiving cash from vendors with the EBT debit card. The EBT debit card may only be used as a debit card. (b) Beginning July 1, 2011, cash benefits for programs listed under paragraph (a) must be issued on a separate EBT card with the head of household's name printed on the card. The card must also state that "It is unlawful to use this card to purchase tobacco products or alcoholic beverages." This card must be issued within 30 calendar days of an eligibility determination. During the initial 30 calendar days of eligibility, a recipient may have cash benefits issued on an EBT card without the recipient's name printed on the card. This card may be the same card on which food support is issued and does not need to meet the requirements of this section. (c) Notwithstanding paragraph (a), EBT cardholders may opt to have up to $20 per month accessible via automatic teller machine or receive up to $20 cash back from a vendor. Poster Comment: http://wonkette.com/440932/minnesota-republicans-to-outlaw-poor-people-having-money; Link to legislation: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0171.1.html&session=ls87
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#51. To: angK (#48)
Ayn Rand wrote for her time and we live in our time so I agree with you to a certain extent. In these days the lesson we can take from Atlas Shrugged, is that TPTB cannot survive without our co-operation. WE ARE THE MODERN DAY ATLAS IF WE TAKE OUR POWER BACK. It will not be without pain, suffering and loss. We would need to help one another. Let's bug out! Thank you. You do understand my nuance. It is not that I favor, or even like, social welfare programs it is that in the current manufactured scene war is being conducted upon the individual. At this time we need the basic subsistance programs to keep the society from shattering. The lunatics are running the asylum - literally.
That is not a sane society O.I., nor an ideal world. That is the kind of society that should be avoided at all costs. You are still advocating a society where the CAN! DO! and those who CAN'T! LIVE OFF THE DOERS! Are you suggesting that the less able should be afforded jobs such as maids, landscapers, hewers of wood? A sane society is one where the able take care of the less able members of their own families. That way, no-one else has to take care of them. That is not living in isolation from one another, that is THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS and that is the true definition of competence and sanity.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Everyone is capable of doing something. I am not suggesting that the less able should freeload. Just that in accord to merit and ability the more able, in a sane society, rise to the more responsible positions and the less able work at those tasks which they are able to competently do. There is dignity in work and in making one's own way - being productive. It is like the comment of Oliver Wendell Holmes - "all pursuits are great when greatly pursued". Living off of your family is no real difference from drawing a welfare check. Because some are more able does not require that those less able do nothing. Each of us is responsible for our own condition. It is just an acknowledgment of reality - all may be equal before the law but not all are equal in ability.
I am thinking more of the disabled than the less able. The point is that they should not be a burden on society. "Each of us is responsible for our own condition." Tsk, tsk, tsk. That is getting dangerously close to the VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS. By the way. It has occurred to me that there are whole families of incompetents, that may not be able to take care of their own. Ayn Rand appreciated a good hamburger and included anyone in any line of work, in her philosophy, as long as they were competent.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
That's a red herring and a TOTALLY separate issue. The monetary system in the country is nothing but a ponzi scam. The fact is that STEALING from one family to give to another is STEALING...and it's WRONG. Isn't that the very definition of COMMUNISM?? If you came over to my house at STOLE 50% of my earnings you'd go to prison...how can you delegate authority you don't have to a government to do something illegal for you to do??? People are teetering on the edge, and a lot are barely making it because the government, and apparently people like you, think it's OK to confiscate money that's THEIRS!
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin
By the sweat of his brow digging ditches for the sewage lines for the village.
In Henery VIII´s day about a hundred families owned over 70% of England, and they aimed to keep it that way by use of "legitimate violence". This is where the AR´s superfical romanticisim will get you. It is a comic book, just slightly more sophisticated than Jughead and Archie. Sorry guys. I like it too - when I was seventeen. BTY - I am considered wealthy by most national standards, and I can identify with being saddened by the decisions of the poor, etc, but unless you want a society of Hank Paulsons and friends raping YOU AND YOUR FAMLIES, consider the lessons of economic. Edward Gibbons might be a fair start. I can assure he would easily recognize AR writing for the self centered, juvanile clap trap that it is.
A couple of the flaws is that it is first an egocentric worldview that presumes divine isolation from the needs and wants of others is possible. It also presumes that everyone who accumulates wealth is "good" by virtue of accumulating wealth. The means by which wealth is accumulated is given slipshod treatment at best. I lean toward the libertarian end of the spectrum, but I am a realist. The reality of human behavior has to be taken into account. Not everyone who accumulates wealth and position has a high regard for their fellow man. Witness the Boosch Fambly and good ol' Barry Sewertoro.
Jr got rich off emminate domain (sp) of having his political cronys grab land for pinnies on the dollar for Texas Rangers ball team stadium, and these KOOKS on the right think he is some kind of self made hero, ala Ayn Rand. Put a double dose of cynide in my Kool Aid, please, and charge it to my BAC credit card at 29% interest. No wonder the pols and Wall Street has a grand ole time trucking the citizens - its so easy. I am sick of the smucks dragging us all down to serfdom.
Not by accident. Hook us all in the mouth. Like the real estate interest deduction, or earned tax credit??? Thia tax structure edifice was built up over many years and no one could have seen how its tennacles would have reached around all of our necks.
And what systen or person admires incomeptance? None.
And what system or person admires incomeptence? None. Your statement is close to being meaningless.
It is a comic book, just slightly more sophisticated than Jughead and Archie "If a man says: “But I realize that my natural endowments are mediocre—shall I then suffer, be ashamed, have an inferiority complex?” The answer is: “In the basic, crucial sphere, the sphere of morality and action, it is not your endowments that matter, but what you do with them.” It is here that all men are free and equal, regardless of natural gifts. You can be, in your own modest sphere, as good morally as the genius is in his—if you live by the same rules. Find your goal within yourself, in whatever work you are honestly capable of performing. Never make others your prime goal. Demand nothing from others as an unearned gift and grant them nothing unearned. Live by your own rational judgments. Be independent in whatever judgments you hold or actions you undertake, and do not venture beyond your own capacity, into spheres where you’ll have to become a parasite and a second-hander. You’ll be surprised how decent and wonderful a human being you’ll become, and how much honest, legitimate human affection and appreciation you’ll get from others." — Ayn Rand (The Journals of Ayn Rand)
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Long ago in one night time debate I nailed RimJob. Everyone was blathering on about they NEVER TOOK A DIME FROM GOVERNMENT, ETC ETC. RimJob finally confessed that he had, that ended the debate but no one retracted the names I was called.
That's easy. The Gov'ts of the Western World. All of them!
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
Of course not.
The Pentagon announced TODAY the formation of a new 500-man elite fighting unit called the United States Redneck Special Forces (USRSF) These boys will be dropped off in Afghanistan and have been given only the following facts about terrorists: 1. The season opened today. 2. There is no limit. 3. They taste just like chicken. 4. They don't like beer, pickups, country music or Jesus .... 5. They are directly responsible for the death of Dale Earnhardt. The Pentagon expects the problem in Afghanistan to be over by Friday.
With the exception of one misguided soul, the other Rand bashers on this thread are Obama voting/supporting leftists...why bother?
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Because I'm not taking any survivors!
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
I'll help you but I refuse to speak to 3 of them, 2 are gov stooges and one is a useless, useful idiot. Regardless, the 3 aren't worth pissing on if they were on fire.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Thanks Flint, I'm curious, but I won't ask you to name names.
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
don't forget about the mexican connection at the stop and robs where they can use that same lone star card to purchase lottery tickets.
Looking good!
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
how about doing away with politicians and not print the bogus twenties the fed calls money as they'd be done away with also.
i don't know how you got that impression, tom. the fact of the matter is, Luke is correct, this cannot be sustained. this country is well on its way, by design, imo, to being a 3rd world nation. i do believe that corporate welfare is a bigger evil than social welfare BUT both should end tomorrow.
I don't think of myself as a "Rand Basher" I just am not so enamored of her philosophy that I disregard the weak points. She was a brilliant woman, but like too many in our culture, IMHO, too steeped in materialism. Societies are composed of individuals, but societies, and cultures, are groups of people, and all of those groups combined comprise humanity in all of its kaleidoscopic wonder. My criticism of the Randian view is simply predicated on the fact that we individuals do not exist in isolation from each other. There is nothing wrong with pursuing one's own interests and survival. There is nothing wrong with expecting people to be responsible for their own welfare. What I object to is the fetishism of extreme individualism to the exclusion of consideration for others. If we had a sane government, and economic system that was not foully corrupted then I would likely gravitate closer to that viewpoint, but I also have this odd quirk of looking at the way things are not the way I think they ought to be. There is nothing wrong, and much right, in working toward an ideal scene. However, it is an ideal scene not the existing scene. First priorities are to clean out the corruption and establish a sane government not starving millions to death because we want to pretend that the ideal scene will magically appear if we do.
I can see they fluoridate the water in Minnesota. This is starting to make the movie "Idiocracy" look like it is a real possibility for the future.
God is always good!
i don't know how you got that impression, tom. the fact of the matter is, Luke is correct, this cannot be sustained. this country is well on its way, by design, imo, to being a 3rd world nation. i do believe that corporate welfare is a bigger evil than social welfare BUT both should end tomorrow. Whereas I favor a more gradual approach. Yes Corporate Welfare should be done away with yesterday, but that also requires lowering taxes so that businesses are not buried under a burden which collapses them. The same holds true with social welfare. Over all it has been a complete disaster and has fostered a sense of dependency and indolence. It does need to be done away with. However, we have the created problem of large numbers of people who have no skills, and there are no jobs for them to go to without turning to another WPA type scenario. As it stands right now people who want jobs can't find them. Or they must, merely to survive, take low paying dead end jobs. By striking a complete and sudden death blow to the welfare system without winding it down more gradually what we would have is chaos, riots, and a lot of crime. Of course we would also see thousands to hundreds of thousands of children looking like the malnourished kids in the old UNICEF ads. We have a created situation and to resolve it the priority has to be to cut the root not wholesale amputation of a few limbs.
perspicacious!
Yes! She was a brilliant woman!
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
You're a Nietzsche basher. "Build your cities under Vesuvius Just kidding
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
She would not apologize for that, nor have any GUILT about it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "First priorities are to clean out the corruption and establish a sane government not starving millions to death because we want to pretend that the ideal scene will magically appear if we do." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who said that if we starve millions to death , the ideal scene will magically appear? Not I. Not Ayn Rand. "Evil requires the sanction of the victim. " — Ayn Rand
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
However, it's this sort of 'realism' that persuades voters to embrace mccain, schwarzenegger & romney because 'the lesser evil' is 'reality' we must accept; plus, the ideologue is 'good in theory' but 'you know they can't win'. Ugh.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 "Whatcha gonna do, when everybody's insaaaane..." (heart :-)
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 great post.Although your reference to 'starving millions to death' sounds like an absurd exageration,i remembered reading that some 30 or 40 million murikans are on 'food stamps' now; a shocking number which begs the ?,who'd buy their groceries otherwise
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 Crazy Gnarls Barkley I remember when But it wasn't because I didn't know enough probably [album version] You really think you're in control? GUILT? What's that?
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
That's tagline material... If you don't want it, I'll take it.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Thanks. No, I did mean millions. One Russian historian, whose name eludes me at the moment, who did a study on the numbers who actually starved to death during the Great Depression puts the number who starved to death at around 7 million. At that time a majority of the citizenry still lived in small towns and on farms and grew a lot more of their own food. So, just extrapolating from current conditions, and assuming a cut off of all social service programs, with the real unemployment rate running at 22 to 25 percent and an estimated 43 million Americans currently receiving food assistance the scene would be one of utter chaos. With no means to earn a living, living in an urban setting with no means to obtain food or shelter, you would have tens of millions of people nationwide thrown out with no means of survival other than theft and robbery, and that is what you would get. The strong and brutal would survive and the weakest (children, the elderly, and the infirm) would die. The death toll could very rapidly reach into the millions. It is not a pleasant scenario to contemplate but is the most likely outcome. The system of Government provided social welfare has been an unmitigated disaster for the free people of this country. It has not only fostered a system of permanent dependency it has robbed people of the dignity or earning their own way. However, in our current corrupt system the solution is not punishing the weak but first taking care of the people who have created this situation and then, and only then, transitioning away from the system of created dependency - which has been purely intentional. It has taken generations to get here and it will take at least 2 generations to eliminate it without major social disruption and unnecessary suffering. Just as the first "Great Depression" was engineered by the Banksters so has been the current one. The last depression allowed the first entry of major government social programs and the current one has been used to enter more. All the while the fatted psychotic pigs of the Bankster system have continued to bloat under the blood, death, and havoc they have created. I am not understating my case when I call them, and name them, psychotic. To really flesh out and illustrate all of the distortions in the social fabric, and economic, would take me hours I don't have right now. However, the entire corporate system, and preference in law for it, is one of those distortions. As well has been the war against small independent business - and it is a war. Small independent farmers and business people do not fit into the "Collective" of the proletariat. You can see what the Bolshevik solution was in the Ukraine. Depending upon whose numbers you use at the low end 8 million died and the high end is around 11 million. It is unlikely that we will ever know for sure. In the U.S. a different, slower, approach has been used by slowly tightening the noose of ever increasing taxes and regulatory burdens making it difficult at best to operate a business. In the Klamath Basin in Oregon and California outright force was used under the pretext of endangered species to cut off the water the small farms needed to grow their crops and survive. Many were driven off the farm and into penury. When people talk about ending the system which we do not like they usually think of it in ideal terms and not reality. Personally, I prefer reality.
Yep, not enough shovels, and I guess that bones will decay to tilth in wet soil in a couple of decades.
If you don't want it, I'll take it NO! You can't have it! LOL
I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
I don't like socialism because it is rightly categorized as parasitic - where one segment of society subsists on the work of others. The problem we face currently is that we have a system which has been rigged so that it is becoming increasingly difficult for an individual to start a small business of their own
#52. To: Original_Intent (#45)
In a sane society the more able end up in the higher positions and the less able are still accorded a survivable situation. That is in an ideal world. We do not have an ideal world and people do not live in isolation from one another.
#53. To: angK (#52)
That is not a sane society O.I., nor an ideal world. That is the kind of society that should be avoided at all costs. You are still advocating a society where the CAN! DO! and those who CAN'T! LIVE OFF THE DOERS! Are you suggesting that the less able should be afforded jobs such as maids, landscapers, hewers of wood?
#54. To: Original_Intent (#53)
Living off of your family is no real difference from drawing a welfare check. Because some are more able does not require that those less able do nothing. Each of us is responsible for our own condition.
#55. To: Original_Intent (#15)
To hell with the food stamp recipients - who cares if they can't find anything with the unemployment rate, the real rate, hovering around 22% (and higher in my area). After all there are a lot of good garbage cans to raid.
#56. To: Freedomsnotfree (#55)
(Edited)
#57. To: Original_Intent (#37)
And of course he "earned" all of that and it was not a payback for official favors.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#58. To: Original_Intent (#44)
The Randian viewpoint in practical strict application would result in the kind of society that Britain had through the 1800's.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#59. To: tom007 (#58)
#60. To: Original_Intent (#59)
Witness the Boosch Fambly
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#61. To: Cynicom (#25)
There are few people here that have not benefited from some government give away program.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#62. To: angK (#42)
Not at all! Ayn Rand admired competence above all else.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#63. To: angK (#42)
(Edited)
Not at all! Ayn Rand admired competence above all else.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#64. To: tom007, Original_Intent (#58)
This is where the AR´s superfical romanticisim will get you.
#65. To: tom007 (#61)
#66. To: tom007 (#63)
And what system or person admires incomeptence?
#67. To: Cynicom (#65)
but no one retracted the names I was called
#68. To: angK, Original_Intent (#66)
#69. To: Flintlock (#68)
With the exception of one misguided soul, the other Rand bashers on this thread are Obama voting/supporting leftists...why bother?
#70. To: angK (#69)
Because I'm not taking any survivors!
#71. To: Flintlock (#70)
(Edited)
I'll help you but I refuse to speak to 3 of them, 2 are gov stooges and one is a useless, useful idiot.
#72. To: Luke The Spook (#2)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#73. To: angK (#71)
#74. To: FormerLurker (#8)
Perhaps politicians should only be paid $20 a month, and simply volunteer their time for the greater good.
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#75. To: tom007 (#35)
seems Luke likes the idea of America becoming a third world nation,
#76. To: Flintlock, angK, Tom007 (#68)
With the exception of one misguided soul, the other Rand bashers on this thread are Obama voting/supporting leftists...why bother?
#77. To: CadetD (#0)
#78. To: christine, Tom007 (#75)
seems Luke likes the idea of America becoming a third world nation,
#79. To: angK (#64)
"If a man says: “But I realize that my natural endowments are mediocre—shall I then suffer, be ashamed, have an inferiority complex?” The answer is: “In the basic, crucial sphere, the sphere of morality and action, it is not your endowments that matter, but what you do with them.” It is here that all men are free and equal, regardless of natural gifts. You can be, in your own modest sphere, as good morally as the genius is in his—if you live by the same rules. Find your goal within yourself, in whatever work you are honestly capable of performing. Never make others your prime goal. Demand nothing from others as an unearned gift and grant them nothing unearned. Live by your own rational judgments. Be independent in whatever judgments you hold or actions you undertake, and do not venture beyond your own capacity, into spheres where you’ll have to become a parasite and a second-hander. You’ll be surprised how decent and wonderful a human being you’ll become, and how much honest, legitimate human affection and appreciation you’ll get from others." — Ayn Rand (The Journals of Ayn Rand)
#80. To: christine (#79)
perspicacious!
#81. To: Original_Intent (#76)
I don't think of myself as a "Rand Basher"
Send your ships to........"
#82. To: Original_Intent (#76)
She was a brilliant woman, but like too many in our culture, IMHO, too steeped in materialism.
#83. To: Original_Intent (#45)
I deal in realities not theoretical constructs
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#84. To: Original_Intent (#51)
The lunatics are running the asylum - literally
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#85. To: Original_Intent (#76)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#86. To: Artisan, Original_Intent (#84)
I remember I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place
Even your emotions had an echo
In so much space
And when you're out there
Without care
Yeah, I was out of touch
I just knew too much
Mmm!
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Possibly [radio version]
And I hope that you are having the time of your life
But think twice, that's my only advice
Mmmm
Come on now, who do you
Who do you, who do you, who do you think you are?
Ha ha ha, bless your soul
Well,
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
Just like me
My heroes had the heart to lose their lives out on a limb
And all I remember is thinking, I wanna be like them
Mhmmmm
Ever since I was little, ever since I was little it looked like fun
And it's no coincidence I've come
And I can die when I'm done
But maybe I'm crazy
Maybe you're crazy
Maybe we're crazy
Probably
Ooh ooh
No Planes. Think about it. ................. Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)
#87. To: angK (#82)
nor have any GUILT about it.
#88. To: angK (#82)
"Evil requires the sanction of the victim. " — Ayn Rand
#89. To: Artisan, angK, christine, Flintlock (#85)
great post.Although your reference to 'starving millions to death' sounds like an absurd exageration,i remembered reading that some 30 or 40 million murikans are on 'food stamps' now; a shocking number which begs the ?,who'd buy their groceries otherwise
#90. To: Original_Intent (#89)
Depending upon whose numbers you use at the low end 8 million died and the high end is around 11 million. It is unlikely that we will ever know for sure.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#91. To: Flintlock (#88)
That's tagline material...
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