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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Constitutional help wanted
Source: self
URL Source: [None]
Published: Mar 31, 2011
Author: me
Post Date: 2011-03-31 02:13:26 by titorite
Keywords: None
Views: 409
Comments: 32

I am having trouble understanding a few parts of the constitution and the laws of today.

Specifically , taxation,the 16th amendment and the supreme court ruling of 1895 Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan and Trust Co.

Seriously , as a look into this, I find some severely fucked up shit.

Section 9 of article 2 states

"No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken"

Followed by

"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

Now as I read this, it seems clear that both income tax and many sales taxes are void.

Income tax and sales tax being a direct tax and that is to say nothing about things the states export to one another and get taxed on.

Allegedly the 16th amendment supersedes article to section 9

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Reading up on all this I came across this website,

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/16thb.htm

"Because an income tax was declared unconstitutional before the adoption of the 16th Amendment in a case called Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan and Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429 (1894), on reh’g 158 U.S. 601 (1895), and because the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, protestors conclude that the income tax must still be unconstitutional.

This conclusion is false. The short answer is that, while the Supreme Court did hold that the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, the amendment relieved the pre-existing power to tax incomes from the constitutional requirement of apportionment. Therefore, the previous problem with the income tax was removed and the income tax is now constitutional."

Now my brain starts to boggle because this law website says that the 16th only relieved the pre-existing power to tax incomes from the constitutional requirement of apportionment.

But this power was not pre-existing!

Thats why it was ruled unconstitutional in the first place!!!

Apportionment has little to do with it since we all earn money. Whether we beg on the street or work for a fortune 500 company the government considers any form of money coming into your hands INCOME and theirfor taxable. It applies to every us citizen that earns even one cent from picking it up off the ground.

How is this not considered a direct tax?

Now whats worse is because of the lack of apportionment the common man is taxed more then the rich man or corporation. As we have seen with several companies that are able to pay ZERO income taxes and even in some cases are entitled to tax refunds. This is not because they are exempt , for no US citizen or entity is exempt. The corporations have merely been allowed to retain lawyers to provide "write offs and tax deductions" on such a massive scale that it equals fraud.

The Government currently seems to tax everyone whatever amount they want.

If your poor then you will pay more in taxes and if you are rich you can pay nothing if you jump the the loopholes not afforded to the poor.

AND THEN their is the matter of exported articles being non taxable.

IF a Florida farmer exports oranges to Missouri the oranges are not supposed to be taxable as they came from another state. And yet Missouri taxes them and all foods.

Where this has much more serious implications is with online transactions.

Many folks that use ebay and craigslist are resellers. Buying something here and selling it there. Recently many states are attempting to pass internet transaction taxes. Again this goes against the constitution and what it prohibits regarding state to state exports.

How is all this unconstitutional stuff being held up as valid?

All this IRS BS seems more like a scam to me.

Why the hell aren't we using a flat tax system...

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 10.

#10. To: titorite (#0) (Edited)

The IRS does not set the tax rates. It was Congress that decided on a progressive rather than a flat tax.

The Supreme Court said that the 16th Amendment did not confer any new power .... because Congress always had the power to lay and collect taxes. The 16th Amendment removed impediments to a particular kind of tax, namely the income tax.

It was hotly disputed before the adoption of the 16th Amendment whether the income tax of the 19th century was direct, indirect, or something else (e.g., an excise) tax. Each point of view had the support of at least one court decision. The adoption of the 16th Amendment eliminated the need for deciding this issue.

Before the adoption of the income tax under the 16th Amendment, the federal govt's prime source of revenue was high tariffs on imports, which led to foreign countries adopting similarly high tariffs on American goods. With the adoption of the income tax, these tariffs were immediately lowered, so the 16th Amendment played a part in turning the US into an international trading powerhouse.

Shoonra  posted on  2011-03-31   5:26:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 10.

#14. To: Shoonra (#10)

It was hotly disputed before the adoption of the 16th Amendment whether the income tax of the 19th century was direct, indirect, or something else (e.g., an excise) tax. Each point of view had the support of at least one court decision. The adoption of the 16th Amendment eliminated the need for deciding this issue.

The 16th Amendment is hotly disputed as unconstitutional on the grounds that it wasn't properly ratified.

Before the adoption of the income tax under the 16th Amendment, the federal govt's prime source of revenue was high tariffs on imports, which led to foreign countries adopting similarly high tariffs on American goods. With the adoption of the income tax, these tariffs were immediately lowered, so the 16th Amendment played a part in turning the US into an international trading powerhouse.

That doesn't justify the 16th Amendment. Tariffs, high or not, weren't invented by America. If an exporter to a country thinks that tariffs make it not worth their time and effort to ship and sell there, likely the country and its economy doesn't need that business and they shouldn't expect anyone there to be obligated to pay them for their unneeded surplus in the "interest of international trade". They should try shipping and selling somewhere else or, better yet, change what they're marketing to something that is more useful and quit pushing the overproduction of what isn't.

GreyLmist  posted on  2011-03-31 14:21:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Shoonra (#10)

With the adoption of the income tax, these tariffs were immediately lowered, so the 16th Amendment played a part in turning the US into an international trading powerhouse.

Superficially that argument can be made, but it is superficial. The effect of a direct income tax is to, as it grows beyond a minimal annoyance, punish production. One can see that best in the so-called "Progressive Income Tax" which punishes greater production with an increased rate of taxation. An "Income Tax" is not necessarily bad but as it is administered in this time and place it hobbles the economy and the survival of the average citizen. Because of political influence the true burdens of the tax have been shifted to the, dwindling true Middle Class, and the upper Working Class. As currently operated and administered it is unjust and counterproductive to the welfare of the nation and its people.

Taxation always should be to simply raise the money needed to support essential, and agreed upon, functions best delegated to a government. However, it has been perverted into a means of social control by punishing some behaviors and activities economically that cannot legally, under our system, otherwise be attached. Thus the tax system has become a Byzantine Maze which has lost its purpose of raising essential monies to a system of controls and oppression.

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-03-31 14:35:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 10.

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