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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Constitutional help wanted
Source: self
URL Source: [None]
Published: Mar 31, 2011
Author: me
Post Date: 2011-03-31 02:13:26 by titorite
Keywords: None
Views: 440
Comments: 32

I am having trouble understanding a few parts of the constitution and the laws of today.

Specifically , taxation,the 16th amendment and the supreme court ruling of 1895 Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan and Trust Co.

Seriously , as a look into this, I find some severely fucked up shit.

Section 9 of article 2 states

"No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken"

Followed by

"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

Now as I read this, it seems clear that both income tax and many sales taxes are void.

Income tax and sales tax being a direct tax and that is to say nothing about things the states export to one another and get taxed on.

Allegedly the 16th amendment supersedes article to section 9

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Reading up on all this I came across this website,

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/16thb.htm

"Because an income tax was declared unconstitutional before the adoption of the 16th Amendment in a case called Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan and Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429 (1894), on reh’g 158 U.S. 601 (1895), and because the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, protestors conclude that the income tax must still be unconstitutional.

This conclusion is false. The short answer is that, while the Supreme Court did hold that the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, the amendment relieved the pre-existing power to tax incomes from the constitutional requirement of apportionment. Therefore, the previous problem with the income tax was removed and the income tax is now constitutional."

Now my brain starts to boggle because this law website says that the 16th only relieved the pre-existing power to tax incomes from the constitutional requirement of apportionment.

But this power was not pre-existing!

Thats why it was ruled unconstitutional in the first place!!!

Apportionment has little to do with it since we all earn money. Whether we beg on the street or work for a fortune 500 company the government considers any form of money coming into your hands INCOME and theirfor taxable. It applies to every us citizen that earns even one cent from picking it up off the ground.

How is this not considered a direct tax?

Now whats worse is because of the lack of apportionment the common man is taxed more then the rich man or corporation. As we have seen with several companies that are able to pay ZERO income taxes and even in some cases are entitled to tax refunds. This is not because they are exempt , for no US citizen or entity is exempt. The corporations have merely been allowed to retain lawyers to provide "write offs and tax deductions" on such a massive scale that it equals fraud.

The Government currently seems to tax everyone whatever amount they want.

If your poor then you will pay more in taxes and if you are rich you can pay nothing if you jump the the loopholes not afforded to the poor.

AND THEN their is the matter of exported articles being non taxable.

IF a Florida farmer exports oranges to Missouri the oranges are not supposed to be taxable as they came from another state. And yet Missouri taxes them and all foods.

Where this has much more serious implications is with online transactions.

Many folks that use ebay and craigslist are resellers. Buying something here and selling it there. Recently many states are attempting to pass internet transaction taxes. Again this goes against the constitution and what it prohibits regarding state to state exports.

How is all this unconstitutional stuff being held up as valid?

All this IRS BS seems more like a scam to me.

Why the hell aren't we using a flat tax system...

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 8.

#8. To: titorite (#0)

This is kinda a blast from the past for me.

"No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken"

Followed by

"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

Now as I read this, it seems clear that both income tax and many sales taxes are void.

Well, what the founders didn't forsee very well is the ability of bureaucrats to to tax more that just objects or "Articles". Activities can be taxed as well. A sales tax is a tax on an activity, not upon the object being sold. I.e. the act of selling is the "thing" that is taxed, and that tax is valued according to the value of the transaction.

Similarly, the income tax is also not a tax upon the money itself. It's rather a tax upon an activity. It's an important distinction. That's why someone giving you money is not an income taxable thing.

"Because an income tax was declared unconstitutional before the adoption of the 16th Amendment in a case called Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan and Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429 (1894), on reh’g 158 U.S. 601 (1895), and because the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, protestors conclude that the income tax must still be unconstitutional.

I understand the "income tax" was not declared unconstitutional. The USSC could never make such a generic ruling. They can only decide whether a particular taxing statute is unconstitutional and they ruled that it was BECAUSE such a tax would be a direct tax made without apportionment.

This conclusion is false. The short answer is that, while the Supreme Court did hold that the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation,

Correct.

the amendment relieved the pre-existing power to tax incomes from the constitutional requirement of apportionment. Therefore, the previous problem with the income tax was removed and the income tax is now constitutional."

But this is wrong. It certainly contradicts the previous sentence since if it "relieves" a taxing power from a requirement, it most certainly does grant new taxing power.

My take: The first "income tax" was imposed under the Lincoln administration during the war. I don't think it was ever challenged. The question for the USSC in the Pollock ruling was whether the a particular tax, which was called an "income tax" was a direct or indirect tax as defined by the Constitution. It had to be one or the other. I understand the USSC narrowly decided it was a direct tax and therefore held to be unconstitutional.

Later the 16th Amendment was passed and the USSC had to readdress the "income tax" issue in light of the 16th and they ruled that the wording of the 16th did not create any new taxing power, but instead clarified that such taxes were to be considered indirect and not direct taxes. The implication of that is that "income tax" could not be imposed upon property, but only upon activities, because a tax on property is a direct tax by definition. Ergo, it was no longer possible for the feds to levy an "income tax" on the value of real estate, personal property or even money itself as money is property as well. That is why today the "income tax" is not upon the money that's earned, but rather upon certain activities (duties, imposts & excises) that are tied to the receiving of money. That's an important difference.

Now my brain starts to boggle because this law website says that the 16th only relieved the pre-existing power to tax incomes from the constitutional requirement of apportionment.

But this power was not pre-existing!

Actually it was. Taxing incomes fell under the power to tax indirectly under the original Constitution. The founders just didn't use the term "income tax". They used "duties, imposts, excises".

Apportionment has little to do with it since we all earn money. Whether we beg on the street or work for a fortune 500 company the government considers any form of money coming into your hands INCOME and theirfor taxable.

They probably do, but that's wrong. The money that's received is not the subject of the tax. Nor is the act of receiving it, as money that's given to you freely is not taxable either. What's possibly taxable is the act of earning the money, the job that's done which results in the money being received. How much tax is due for such activities?? Answer: It's based upon the amount of money that is paid as compensation for the work. So the money is not the subject of the tax, it's instead the reference that's used to determine the amount of tax that's owed.

How is this not considered a direct tax?

As I explained above, hopefully relatively clearly.

Now whats worse is because of the lack of apportionment the common man is taxed more then the rich man or corporation. As we have seen with several companies that are able to pay ZERO income taxes and even in some cases are entitled to tax refunds. This is not because they are exempt , for no US citizen or entity is exempt. The corporations have merely been allowed to retain lawyers to provide "write offs and tax deductions" on such a massive scale that it equals fraud.

Corporations have the ability to write off as an expense everything they do to stay functioning. People, on the other hand are not. People cannot deduct the cost of the food they need to eat to stay alive. They cannot deduct all other expenses they suffer, such as car, clothing, entertainment, and so on which are all required to stay fit and sane in order to work. Corps, on the other hand, can deduct such things. They deduct everything, every expense they have, including dinners out & entertainment for everything slightly related to the company.

The Government currently seems to tax everyone whatever amount they want.

The USSC also ruled the power to tax was the power to destroy. And that therefore, the power to tax had to be limited. Rights, for example, cannot be taxed, such as taxing people for voting. It was ruled unconstitutional. And people have a right to live and work under the recognized inalienable right to "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness". And that is where the "income tax", taxing people on their labor hits a legal brick wall.

How is all this unconstitutional stuff being held up as valid?

Same way all the other unconstitutional stuff is upheld as valid.

All this IRS BS seems more like a scam to me.

Agreed.

Why the hell aren't we using a flat tax system...

It's not needed. The USA became a world power with only minimal taxation as a far smaller % of GDP than today.

Dang this is a long post. Thanks for the mental exercise.

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-03-31   4:30:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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