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Title: Has Stephen Hawking Been Wrong For The Last 30 Years?
Source:
openculture.com
URL Source: http://www.openculture.com/2007/03/has_stephen_haw.html
Published: May 17, 2011
Author: ?
Post Date: 2011-05-17 21:30:59 by Armadillo
Keywords: None
Views: 312
Comments: 33
With his cutting-edge research on black holes in the 1970s, Stephen Hawking emerged as a major player in the physics world. Then, with the 1988 publication of the bestseller, A Brief History of Time, Hawking achieved international celebrity status. As this BBC presentation shows, Hawking’s fame might rest on weaker foundations than most could have imagined. Several important physicists, including Leonard Susskind here at Stanford (see our previous references to him), zeroed in on Hawking’s major contention that, when black holes disappear, they take along with them all information that ever existed inside them, which leads to the logical conclusion that there are clear limits to what scientists could ever know about black holes. After 20 years of debate, the Susskind camp seems to have won out, leaving Hawking’s legacy in question. Poster Comment: Shhhhhh, dont tell the Hawking worshipers.
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#1. To: Armadillo (#0)
Meaningless. Science evolves throughout time and theories change as our understanding of the universe becomes somewhat more complete.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Called the Hawking paradox, he solved it himself demonstrating that no information was lost. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Well that's odd. Those who don't believe in God will believe anything.
Well, that's even odder. I've never known anyone before who views the bible as a "living document" So, that said, which books shall we delete and which from the apocrypha shall we now ad?
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
We don't remove anything even if it is a mistake in translation or otherwise. We didn't remove the amendment for national alcoholic beveridge prohibition from the Constitution when we made another amendment repealing it later. Religion does evolutionarily mature like everything else. (As a forinstance in the Permian Period protomammals looked like lizards and crocks and were thought of as "mammal like reptiles" up to the early 1990s. Now the mammals and their less than mammal ancestors have their own class separate from reptiles called Synapsida). In religion I would consider Christian Trinitarian Universalism to be maturing of traditional Christianity because it still believes in God as traditional Christianity does but does not believe in or use eternal "lava boarding" in a spiritual Git-mo called Hell to get people to conform to a set of idiotic rules 90 percent of which were never in the Bible in the first place in order to get power over them like the Fundies do.
Amen!
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
So, that said, which books shall we delete and which from the apocrypha shall we now ad? The various translations are always being revised and updated. I think the KJV is the most revised version. They get revised when errors are found, or a better translation or understanding is found. Gods word is perfect, humans are not. All religions grow over time. You dont see Jews sacrificing bulls, doves, and sheep anymore.
Why would anyone worship a mere man? Especially one who is so ignorant as to deny the existence of God. The creation itself speaks to the existence of a Creator.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
You mean like Jesus?
__________________________________________________ With ignorance and confidence, success is certain. Mark Twain
Jesus was not a mere man, or not merely man. Jesus was/is the son of God.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
That's absurd! God is ineffable. Our understanding of God is minute, if we have any understanding at all. As for religion maturing! Religion merely changes, as the expediency of the moment dictates.
__________________________________________________ With ignorance and confidence, success is certain. Mark Twain
I would not wish to re-open the great debate of the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed". I lean towards the Aryan viewpoint that Jesus was a man. This is one of those issues on which we must agree to disagree.
__________________________________________________ With ignorance and confidence, success is certain. Mark Twain
Wrong. Crack open a Bible, read Acts, read a history book. You will see how religion changes and matures over time. Also, using modern techniques and archaeology to better understand ancient life and languages has allowed us to gain new insight into the Bible. Some of these insights can be seen in the NIV translation, where (much to the chagrin of KJV devotees) text is removed and/or altered to better reflect the original intent of the writing.
That's absurd! God is ineffable. Our understanding of God is minute, if we have any understanding at all. "First you say it's absurd, then you make a similar point as I did. Make up your mind." I'm hardly making the same point as you. You said, "as our understanding of God becomes more complete." FURTHERMORE THIS PART OF YOUR COMMENT BEARS EXAMINATION "Wrong. Crack open a Bible, read Acts, read a history book. You will see how religion changes and matures over time. Also, using modern techniques and archaeology to better understand ancient life and languages has allowed us to gain new insight into the Bible. Some of these insights can be seen in the NIV translation, where (much to the chagrin of KJV devotees) text is removed and/or altered to better reflect the original intent of the writing." I HAVE CRACKED OPEN A BIBLE. I CAN'T QUOTE CHAPTER AND VERSE, BUT I KNOW THAT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE TEXT IS NOT TO BE ALTERED. THE NIV TRANSLATION IS NOT A TRANSLATION IF TEXT IS REMOVED AND ALTERED AND WHO IS TO SAY WHAT THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE WRITING WAS. YOU ARE DECLARING AGAIN THAT WHATEVER YOUR RELIGION IS, YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD AND WHAT HE INTENDED! I SAY THAT IS ABSURD!
__________________________________________________ With ignorance and confidence, success is certain. Mark Twain
Yes, but what IS the Word of God? That which is written by mere humans, who have MUCH to gain by establishing that which THEY say IS the "Word of God"?
Of course it is your right to believe what you think is correct. I think Jesus is the son of God because he said he was and I don't think he is a liar.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
"More complete" means our understanding is lacking but getting better. You do not know anything it seems. The NIV is a fresh translation, using modern techniques and better understanding of Jesus time than they had in 1611. We have learned a lot since 1611 about language, history, and archaeology. The NIV puts that knowledge to use to make a better, easier to read, more accesable Bible. Translating from an ancient langauge, like ancient Greek, to another is not a simple task. Some words have different meanings depending on use. Some words have no direct counterpart in the other language. We are much better at translating ancient text today than we were in 1611. The NIV tries to maintian the original intended meaning of the text, not just a 1-to-1 word swap that can give a wrong meaning. Of course you are welcome to use any Bible you prefer.
I like Hawking. However, I think his resolution of the paradox is something of a cop out. In a TV documentary about the subject, he concludes at the end that information persists in parallel universes that do not have any black holes. Ooh...kayy... I'm open to the notion of parallel/alternate universes, but I still considered his answer a cop out. An alternate universe that even somewhat resembles our own would have physical laws that would inevitably include black holes.
Democrats don't mind war as long as they can have big government. Republicans don't mind big government as long as they can have war. God honors our hearts, not our doctrines! May the peace of God, which passes all understanding, dwell in you and in your house forever.
__________________________________________________ With ignorance and confidence, success is certain. Mark Twain
Can you put this in human terms.
I would agree.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I believe this thread proves something, in somekinda way. BTY YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD AND WHAT HE INTENDED!
I could if I fully understood it. It was well explained in the documentary mentioned above. From what I get of my own post he says that information can escape because of the turbulence on the event horizon. I'm not buying it. There is a lot we don't know about black holes and physics in general. There are even questions about the interior of our sun. Some believe, and there is evidence to support the idea, that our sun is a neutron star with an iron core rather than the big ball of hydrogen claimed today. Personally I think we are due for a big break through.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I stopped reading right there. You are an unusual FF. What's your crop?
Politics. I was Legislative Director for the California State Grange.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Thank you.
__________________________________________________ With ignorance and confidence, success is certain. Mark Twain
There goes the neighborhood.
“But when you want money for people with minds that hate, All I can tell you brother is that you have to wait.” The Beatles, Revolution, 1968
Politics. I was Legislative Director for the California State Grange. You were a farmers lobby?? Great!!
Yes.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ We have to open our hearts to Him. He's not going to do a dynamic entry into our lives. It is our choice to make, or not.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
Excellent post, Lod.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
Lod, I truly like your style ! Simple truths are obvious ... while long-winded diatribes are bullshit !
“But when you want money for people with minds that hate, All I can tell you brother is that you have to wait.” The Beatles, Revolution, 1968
This song is a reminder to me of how I feel about God !
“But when you want money for people with minds that hate, All I can tell you brother is that you have to wait.” The Beatles, Revolution, 1968
Shhhhhh, dont tell the Hawking worshipers.
#2. To: Armadillo (#0)
(Edited)
In July 2005, Stephen Hawking published a paper and announced a theory that quantum perturbations of the event horizon could allow information to escape from a black hole, which would resolve the information paradox. His argument assumes the unitarity of the AdS/CFT correspondence which implies that an AdS black hole that is dual to a thermal conformal field theory. When announcing his result, Hawking also conceded the 1997 bet, paying Preskill with a baseball encyclopedia "from which information can be retrieved at will". However, Thorne remains unconvinced of Hawking's proof and declined to contribute to the award.
#3. To: Flintlock (#1)
Science evolves throughout time and theories change as our understanding of the universe becomes somewhat more complete.
Religion does the same thing, changing and maturing as our understanding of God becomes more complete.
For some odd reason, unbelievers have no slack for... say, a mistake against Galileo, but plenty of slack for errors in "science".
Once you go armadillo, you never go back.
#4. To: Armadillo (#3)
Well that's odd. Religion does the same thing, changing and maturing as our understanding of God becomes more complete.
#5. To: Flintlock (#4)
The Fed EXPOSED!!! The FARO RESERVE BANK!!!
#6. To: Coral Snake (#5)
in order to get power over them like the Fundies do.
#7. To: Flintlock (#4)
Well, that's even odder. I've never known anyone before who views the bible as a "living document"
I prefer the NIV, as it is a fresher translation less dependant on custom.
Once you go armadillo, you never go back.
#8. To: Armadillo (#0)
Shhhhhh, dont tell the Hawking worshipers.
OsamaBinGoldstein
#9. To: James Deffenbach (#8)
Why would anyone worship a mere man?
#10. To: angK (#9)
You mean like Jesus?
OsamaBinGoldstein
#11. To: Armadillo (#3)
Religion does the same thing, changing and maturing as our understanding of God becomes more complete.
#12. To: James Deffenbach (#10)
#13. To: angK (#11)
That's absurd! God is ineffable. Our understanding of God is minute, if we have any understanding at all.
First you say it's absurd, then you make a similar point as I did. Make up your mind.
As for religion maturing! Religion merely changes, as the expediency of the moment dictates.
Once you go armadillo, you never go back.
#14. To: Armadillo (#13)
#15. To: Armadillo (#7)
Gods word is perfect, humans are not.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#16. To: angK (#12)
This is one of those issues on which we must agree to disagree.
OsamaBinGoldstein
#17. To: angK (#14)
(Edited)
I'm hardly making the same point as you. You said, "as our understanding of God becomes more complete."
You said "Our understanding of God is minute, if we have any understanding at all".
You said the same thing as I, phrased differently. I HAVE CRACKED OPEN A BIBLE. I CAN'T QUOTE CHAPTER AND VERSE, BUT I KNOW THAT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE TEXT IS NOT TO BE ALTERED.
THE NIV TRANSLATION IS NOT A TRANSLATION IF TEXT IS REMOVED AND ALTERED AND WHO IS TO SAY WHAT THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE WRITING WAS. YOU ARE DECLARING AGAIN THAT WHATEVER YOUR RELIGION IS, YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD AND WHAT HE INTENDED!
First, the Bible does not say the text can not be altered AFAIK. The text was written many decades after the events at the earliest.
Second, the KJV was created in 1611. After it was printed it was found to have many embarassing errors and was revised. It has been revised many times since. It is probably the most revised version, and still has errors.
Some believe the KJV is the unerring word of God. If so, how do they revise that?
What was removed are things that were added many centuries after the facts. For example, there is a part of one book that was obviously copied verbatium from another book out of context by a medieval scribe. It was not in older texts.
Should that error remain, or should it be corrected? The NIV corrects it.
Once you go armadillo, you never go back.
#18. To: farmfriend (#2)
Your vote is steering the country
If you believe in small government, then you shouldn't be in the White House.
#19. To: Armadillo (#17)
Of course you are welcome to use any Bible you prefer.
#20. To: farmfriend (#2)
OMG! You poor man! Take your pets with you and save the money on the insurance.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#21. To: PnbC (#18)
I think his resolution of the paradox is something of a cop out.
#22. To: angK (#14)
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#23. To: tom007 (#20)
Can you put this in human terms.
#24. To: farmfriend (#23)
There are even questions about the interior of our sun.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#25. To: tom007 (#24)
What's your crop?
#26. To: tom007 (#22)
BTY YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD AND WHAT HE INTENDED!
#27. To: PnbC (#18)
An alternate universe that even somewhat resembles our own would have physical laws that would inevitably include black holes.
#28. To: farmfriend (#25)
What's your crop?
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#29. To: tom007 (#28)
You were a farmers lobby??
#30. To: noone222, believers, 4 (#27)
this says it all for me -
#31. To: Lod (#30)
OsamaBinGoldstein
#32. To: Lod (#30)
(Edited)
#33. To: Lod (#30)
(Edited)
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