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Title: Romans 13:1-7
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Published: May 20, 2011
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Post Date: 2011-05-20 00:13:29 by RickyJ
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Views: 610
Comments: 39
These are some of my thoughts on Romans 13: 1-7 If you think I am wrong about this please let me know how I am wrong. I have a sick feeling many ministers in America have on purpose been misleading their congregations into believing Christians should obey their government. I have always thought Romans 13 could not have been talking about civil governments because to do so would contradict many other scriptures in the New Testament. I still believe this to be the case despite the widely taught and held belief that Romans 13: 1-7 is talking about submission to secular governments. What is actually being commanded here by Paul is submission to higher authorities, most think this means secular governments, but that is not what this verse is saying. Submission to higher authorities for a Christian would be leaders in the church, deacons, elders, and the apostles. It also of course means submission to Jesus Christ, the highest authority of them all. It does not mean civil secular governments who have no scriptural authority over the church of Jesus Christ. The first century church did not submit to any secular government beyond paying taxes. As Jesus commanded us to render unto Ceaser the things that are Ceaser's and to God the things that are God's. Paul himself was tortured by the Roman government for disobeying them. Paul wrote this letter to Christians in Rome and they knew he was tortured and imprisoned by the Roman government for disobeying them. No one that he wrote this letter would have for a second believed he was talking about submitting to them! Obviously the "higher authority" that Paul is referring to in Romans 13:1 is not the Roman government or any civil government on Earth.
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#1. To: RickyJ (#0)
For those who think that those Bible verses command them to be submissive to a corrupt government I would submit the names Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego (1) and of course Daniel.(2)
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein
The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
#2. To: RickyJ (#0)
There are historical accounts of Paul that you may be interested in reading up on... Paul himself was tortured by the Roman government for disobeying them. Paul wrote this letter to Christians in Rome and they knew he was tortured and imprisoned by the Roman government for disobeying them. No one that he wrote this letter would have for a second believed he was talking about submitting to them!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#3. To: RickyJ (#0)
Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's law to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? Paul said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.
#4. To: All (#0)
I want to thank everyone for their feedback on this topic. I could be wrong but I don't think I am about the true meaning of Romans 13:1-7. Anyways I am going to email this to people in my church, including the preacher who recently preached about Romans 13:1-7 saying that it means obey civil governments.
God is always good!
#5. To: RickyJ (#4)
The Israelite Mid-wives disobeyed the Pharoah's order to kill the male babies ... Nehemiah, faced with the same situation as we are today, raised a mob and went before the authorities and demanded they return everything that'd been stolen from the people through taxation. [See Nehemiah 5] Nehemiah 5 And there was a great cry of the people and of their wives against their brethren the Jews. For there were that said, We, our sons, and our daughters, are many: therefore we take up corn for them, that we may eat, and live. Some also there were that said, We have mortgaged our lands, vineyards, and houses, that we might buy corn, because of the dearth. There were also that said, We have borrowed money for the king's tribute, and that upon our lands and vineyards. Yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children: and, lo, we bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought unto bondage already: neither is it in our power to redeem them; for other men have our lands and vineyards. 6 And I was very angry when I heard their cry and these words. Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them. And I said unto them, We after our ability have redeemed our brethren the Jews, which were sold unto the heathen; and will ye even sell your brethren? or shall they be sold unto us? Then held they their peace, and found nothing to answer. Also I said, It is not good that ye do: ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the heathen our enemies? I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury. Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them. Then said they, We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do as thou sayest. Then I called the priests, and took an oath of them, that they should do according to this promise. Also I shook my lap, and said, So God shake out every man from his house, and from his labour, that performeth not this promise, even thus be he shaken out, and emptied. And all the congregation said, Amen, and praised the Lord. And the people did according to this promise.
“But when you want money for people with minds that hate, All I can tell you brother is that you have to wait.”
The Beatles, Revolution, 1968
#6. To: RickyJ (#4)
I am sure your preacher means well--I think most of them do. And while I am far from being a Bible scholar the Bible has to be read and understood in context. You can take anything from the Bible out of context and make it say whatever you want it to say.
Anyways I am going to email this to people in my church, including the preacher who recently preached about Romans 13:1-7 saying that it means obey civil governments.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein
The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
#7. To: RickyJ, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)
“It is hoped that but few will think the subject of [this sermon] an improper one to be discoursed on in the pulpit, under a notion that this is preaching politics, instead of Christ. However, to remove all prejudices of this sort, I beg it may be remembered that 'all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' Why, then, should not those parts of Scripture which relate to civil government be examined and explained from the desk, as well as others?” from the Preface of Dr. Mayhew's published sermon Jonathan Mayhew (1720-1766) received his D.D. from Harvard in 1747. Shortly thereafter Mayhew was ordained as a Congregationalist Minister and pastored the West Church in Boston until his death in 1766. John Adams called Rev. Mayhew "the morning gun of the Revolution." Adams also dubbed him a "transcendent genius." Robert Treat Paine called Dr. Mayhew, "The Father of Civil and Religious Liberty in Massachusetts and America." No one today should underestimate the significant contribution that the Rev. Jonathan Mayhew made toward the cause of liberty and American independence. Mayhew preached several sermons on Romans 13. The sermon below was considered so important that it was printed and widely distributed throughout the American Colonies. Mayhew was also famous for his election sermons (in Mayhew's day it was common for preachers to preach a sermon to the governor and the legislators immediately following an election). The message of Mayhew's sermon challenging passive obedience and non-resistance to all rulers was radical and unmistakable -- the king must repent of his tyrannies or face the consequences of his subjects forcibly throwing off the chains of tyranny. Mayhew's sermon was even sent to the king and the British parliament as a "remonstrance." Mayhew's habit of serving remonstrances on tyrants became a common practice with many other patriot preachers, as well. King George branded these "nonconformist" clergymen as the "Black Regiment" (mocking them for the black robes they wore). Mayhew's sermon resulted in the motto for the American Revolution: "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." Mayhew has been characterized by many historians as a "liberal" and a "radical," and indeed he was. We should as Americans, who today enjoy the fruits of liberty, note that all of America's Founding Fathers were called liberals and radicals, by friend and foe alike. In their day, the conservatives were the king's toadies or "Tories." Pastors of that day who were loyal to the tyrant king were called "royalists" and "loyalists." They taught "unlimited submission and passive obedience" in all cases, irrespective of how wicked the ruler was, and how tyrannical his acts toward his subjects were. In our own day, we see strong evidence that "loyalism" has returned to the pulpits of America's churches. Many pastors, rather than challenging the despotisms of corrupt government officials, and informing their congregations of the necessity of resisting tyranny, are preaching unlimited submission and passive obedience. It is a rare pastor in our day who has ever sent even one remonstrance to a government official, and particularly to a high-level official. Rather, all that an official need do to be exonerated of all his misdeeds, and never be held accountable by any pastor, is to claim, "Jesus came into my heart. Once Jesus comes into your heart it changes your life" (George W. Bush). (How's that for turning GWB's own words back onto the FedGov??) Romans 13:1-8 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers." . . . Let us now trace the apostle's reasoning in favor of submission to the higher powers, a little more particularly and exactly. For by this it will appear, on one hand, how good and conclusive it is, for submission to those rulers who exercise their power in a proper manner: And, on the other, how weak and trifling and unconnected it is, if it be supposed to be meant by the apostle to show the obligation and duty of obedience to tyrannical, oppressive rulers in common with others of a different character. The apostle enters upon his subject thus--Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers; for there is no power but of God: the powers that be, are ordained of God. Here he urges the duty of obedience from this topic of argument, that civil rulers, as they are supposed to fulfill the pleasure of God, are the ordinance of God. But how is this an argument for obedience to such rulers as do not perform the pleasure of God, by doing good; but the pleasure of the devil, by doing evil; and such as are not, therefore, God's ministers, but the devil's! Whosoever, therefore, resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist, shall receive to themselves damnation. Here the apostle argues, that those who resist a reasonable and just authority, which is agreeable to the will of God, do really resist the will of God himself; and will, therefore, be punished by him. But how does this prove, that those who resist a lawless, unreasonable power, which is contrary to the will of God, do therein resist the will and ordinance of God? Is resisting those who resist God's will, the same thing with resisting God? Or shall those who do so, receive to themselves damnation! For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good; and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. Here the apostle argues more explicitly than he had before done, for revering, and submitting to, magistracy, from this consideration, that such as really performed the duty of magistrates, would be enemies only to the evil actions of men, and would befriend and encourage the good: and so be a common blessing to society. But how is this an argument, that we must honor, and submit to, such magistrates as are not enemies to the evil actions of men; but to the good: and such as are not a common blessing, but a common curse, to society! But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid: For he is the minister of God, a revenger, to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Here the apostle argues from the nature and end of magistracy, that such as did evil, (and such only) had reason to be afraid of the higher powers; it being part of their office to punish evildoers, no less than to defend and encourage such as do well. But if magistrates are unrighteous; if they are respecters of persons; if they are partial in their administration of justice; then those who do well have as much reason to be afraid, as those that do evil: there can be no safety for the good, nor any peculiar ground of terror to the unruly and injurious. So that, in this case, the main end of civil government will be frustrated. And what reason is there for submitting to that government, which does by no means answer the design of government? Wherefore ye must needs be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Here the apostle argues the duty of a cheerful and conscientious submission to civil government, from the nature and end of magistracy as he had before laid it down, i.e. as the design of it was to punish evildoers, and to support and encourage such as do well; and as it must, if so exercised, be agreeable to the will of God. But how does what he here says, prove the duty of a cheerful and conscientious subjection to those who forfeit the character of rulers? to those who encourage the bad, and discourage the good? The argument here used no more proves it to be a sin to resist such rulers, than it does, to resist the devil, that he may flee from us. For one is as truly the minister of God as the other. For, for this cause pay you tribute also; for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Here the apostle argues the duty of paying taxes, from this consideration, that those who perform the duty of rulers, are continually attending upon the public welfare. But how does this argument conclude for paying taxes to such princes as are continually endeavoring to ruin the public? And especially when such payment would facilitate and promote this wicked design! Render therefore to all their dues; tribute, to whom tribute is due; custom, to whom custom; fear, to whom fear; honor, to whom honor. Here the apostle sums up what he had been saying concerning the duty of subjects to rulers. And his argument stands thus--“Since magistrates who execute their office well, are common benefactors to society; and may, in that respect, be properly stiled the ministers and ordinance of God; and since they are constantly employed in the service of the public; it becomes you to pay them tribute and custom; and to reverence, honor, and submit to, them in the execution of their respective offices.” This is apparently good reasoning. But does this argument conclude for the duty of paying tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience, to such persons as (although they bear the title of rulers) use all their power to hurt and injure the public? such as are not God's ministers, but satan's? such as do not take care of, and attend upon, the public interest, but their own, to the ruin of the public? that is, in short, to such as have no natural and just claim at all to tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience? It is to be hoped that those who have any regard to the apostle's character as an inspired writer, or even as a man of common understanding, will not represent him as reasoning in such a loose incoherent manner; and drawing conclusions which have not the least relation to his premises. For what can be more absurd than an argument thus framed? “Rulers are, by their office, bound to consult the public welfare and the good of society: therefore you are bound to pay them tribute, to honor, and to submit to them, even when they destroy the public welfare, and are a common pest to society, by acting in direct contradiction to the nature and end of their office.” Thus, upon a careful review of the apostle's reasoning in this passage, it appears that his arguments to enforce submission, are of such a nature, as to conclude only in favor of submission to such rulers as he himself describes; i.e., such as rule for the good of society, which is the only end of their institution. Common tyrants, and public oppressors, are not intitled to obedience from their subjects, by virtue of any thing here laid down by the inspired apostle.
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"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#8. To: RickyJ (#0)
Perhaps it would be best if you were to use the thoughts of the Bible instead. Just my opinion, you understand. To begin with, is there another witness to Romans 13:1-7 in the Bible? Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, (King James Bible Online http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Titus-3-1/) Principalities, powers and magistrates is pretty easily understood to be governments in general. Secondly, who established these governments? Does the Bible tell us? Colossians 1:15,16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: So Jesus Christ, the 'image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,' a created being himself, created these powers. Why? Well, why did the Christ Jesus come to the earth? Luke 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. Not hard to understand. He was sent here to preach the Good News of the Kingdom of his Father. This is stated as his work also in Matthew. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. In verse 3 of Matthew 24, his disciples asked him for a SIGN of his presence when he returns to the earth. The verses 4 through 12 describe what will be happening on the earth during his return (matthew 25:31-34), but verse 14 is the direct sign that he is present and continuing his assignment. Why is the Kingdom of his Father so important? Because it is the solution to ALL of the problems that plaugue this earth, but esp. it is the solution to the ruler of this present world; Satan. As is stated in the Lord's prayer: Matthew 6:9; After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. This prayer is for us to ASK that the rule of his Father be returned to the earth, exactly as is shown in Daniel 2:44. That is why his government is called a hevenly kingdom; it will, just as it did in the beginning with Adam and Eve, rule the earth from heaven. Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not He is perfect. How do you change perfection? No one can, including Almighty God, therefore He stays the same, as do His Works and His Purposes. What are His Purposes for the corrupt governemnts of man, controlled by Satan? Let me ask you this: would you care to live in Somalia, where there is no government? Perhaps, instead, you would prefer to live in America without a central government, where 'might makes right?' Is there anywhere on the earth where someone could live in relative peace, without there being a central government? No. The imperfection of man guarentees that peace, even relative peace, is impossible without some form of government. Up till this time in history, a unigue part of the history of the universe, most people world wide have lived in realative peace while they searched for God. However, to stop the preaching work, the focus of Almighty God and of His Son TODAY, which is the responsibility of Jesus Christ, anarchy is the preferred system of Satan. It would put a stop to the world wide preaching work which is, basically, now completed in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24:14. Instead of anarchy, Satan has had to use other methods of trying to stop that work, such as natural disasters and endless wars, but nothing works against the Will of Almighty God and His Son. In conclusion, you should note this: Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. In other words, you are going against the Will of Jehovah. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And it is not neccessary to understand that will in order to do it. It is simply neccessary to submit. Most, unfortunately, can not.
These are some of my thoughts on Romans 13: 1-7
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#9. To: richard9151, Esso (#8) (Edited)
Ah...so much love that if you didn't believe or believed diffrently you'd be burned alive. A burning love :)
He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ..
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#10. To: Flintlock (#9)
Good. So you understand that those who teach that people burn forever in a so- called hell dishonor a God of Love; 1 John 4:8. And since ALL religions infused with the paganism that originated in Babylon teach this, and since Babylon (the Chaldeans) were controlled by Satan (Book of Job, chapter 1), then you well understand that such religions are also controlled by Satan.
Ah...so much love that if you didn't believe or believed diffrently you'd be burned alive.
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#11. To: richard9151 (#10)
You're hilarious So tell me, which of the 4000+ sects of Christyinsanity is the only path to free harp lessons?
ALL religions infused with the paganism that originated in Babylon teach this,
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#12. To: RickyJ (#0)
i have ZERO respect for unlawful authority.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#13. To: Flintlock (#11)
Jesus Christ is a threat to you..how..exactly ?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#14. To: richard9151 (#8)
You can bow down to the kingdoms of this world which satan controls, I will not. Luke 4:5-8 Paul wasn't talking about submitting to the Roman government. If you think that then you are ignorant of the fact that he himself was disobeying them and not submitting to them. Oh, and by the way, I know all about the clergy response team. I highly suspect you are a member of that club. It would be better to be real member of the Lord's body than to serve Satan on the Earth. Good luck with Judgement day.
God is always good!
#15. To: Rotara (#13)
Not to me, not at all. I do find disturding that there are 4000+ different sects ALL claiming to be the true path to salvation. No other religion is like that....not one, so IMO it must be false Christiyinsanity 4,000 sects Islam - 8 sects en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Denominations Hinduism - 6 (maybe) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Denominations Buddhism - 3 sects en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#Schools_and_traditions Judaism - 4 sects (maybe 6) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jud...h_groupings_.28to_1700.29 Sikhism - no sub sects Shinto - 5 sects en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto#Types_of_Shinto I could go on and on. Only Christyinsanity has everything from pious perverts to snake jugglers to rapture monkeys....it makes ZERO sense to me.
Jesus Christ is a threat to you..how..exactly ?
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#16. To: RickyJ (#14)
Why would a smart god, make stupid people then put them on a planet ruled by satan?
You can bow down to the kingdoms of this world which satan controls, I will not.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#17. To: Flintlock (#9)
God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there by denying him and hating him. Hell is eternal separation from the creator.
Ah...so much love that if you didn't believe or believed diffrently you'd be burned alive.
God is always good!
#18. To: Flintlock (#16)
That is a good question. I don't know. But it is obvious evil people do control this world, so it appears Luke 4:5-8 is correct in that regard.
Why would a smart god, make stupid people then put them on a planet ruled by satan?
God is always good!
#19. To: RickyJ (#18)
And this country, yet the average "good christian" keeps voting them in while waiting for heysus to clean up the mess they've made.
But it is obvious evil people do control this world,
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#20. To: richard9151 (#8)
So, trying to deceive and mislead people again? Jesus was not "created." Jesus is a part of the triune God--Father, Son, Holy Ghost.
So Jesus Christ, the 'image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,' a created being himself, created these powers. Why? Well, why did the Christ Jesus come to the earth?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein
The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
#21. To: Flintlock (#11)
None. And since you believe in Odin, THAT religion teaches the same dogma.
So tell me, which of the 4000+ sects of Christyinsanity is the only path to free harp lessons?
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#22. To: James Deffenbach (#20)
Yes. I understand. Satan teaches that God is physco -- three personalities. And you accept that. Your Bible - the King James - says: the firstborn of every creature: So please work on correcting your Bible, please.
Jesus was not "created." Jesus is a part of the triune God
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#23. To: Flintlock (#19)
You are right, they do. Many call themselves Christians, it is popular thing to do, but it hardly makes one a Christian. If Christianity became unpopular then you would quickly see how fake they are as they abandon Christianity for the latest fad. True Christians would never deny Jesus or vote for war mongers.
And this country, yet the average "good christian" keeps voting them in while waiting for heysus to clean up the mess they've made.
God is always good!
#24. To: richard9151, all (#8) (Edited)
LOL! So your 'god' is not all-powerful after all. So you then blame it on Satan. How original! It's amazing that no one has thought of doing that, until now. And it is not neccessary to understand that will in order to do it. It is simply neccessary to submit. Most, unfortunately, can not. You're goddamn right. Submitting is for pussies. Submitting because you dont understand why you're submitting, like you state is mandatory, is for stupid pussies. . ,
Satan has had to use other methods of trying to stop that work, such as natural disasters and endless wars,
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
“Satanism is about walking against the grain and going against what is considered acceptable by society. Therefore, it is impossible to make it socially acceptable, because when it is accepted by society it is no longer Satanism.” -Unknown
#25. To: richard9151 (#21) (Edited)
Well, I really don't believe in ODIN!!! but it sure is a lot of fun. Unlike Heysus, ODIN!!! is not a pussy. That said I do believe in the 9 Noble Virtues of Asatru, which is the philosophy behind Odinisim. There is no dogma in Asatru, and groveling your way to heaven is only a sure way to Hel, which to me would be spending eternity with a bunch of harp playing rapture monkeys.
And since you believe in Odin, THAT religion teaches the same dogma.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#26. To: richard9151 (#22)
Your Bible - the King James - says: the firstborn of every creature: So please work on correcting your Bible, please. You sound fairly close to insane. I accept that God is composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I know that you may have a difficult time with that concept, many people do. But when you try to put God in a human box and try to understand the infinite with the finite, you have to make God smaller than he is or something. Anyway, I remember from when you used to post here, always the same stuff claiming stuff about the Bible and God that wasn't true and I don't intend to argue with you.
Yes. I understand. Satan teaches that God is physco -- three personalities. And you accept that.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein
The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
#27. To: Flintlock (#15)
forget Christians. seek the Living God. read your Bible. you're a decent guy, a smart guy and i'll bet well-liked and successful. just figure this one out while you have that luxury.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#28. To: James Deffenbach (#26)
LOL i almost woke up the baby !
You sound fairly close to insane.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#29. To: ALL (#24) (Edited)
The whole scripture's meaning is retarded if it truly means submit to governments. I don't think it does though. One hand we are told to resist satan and he will flee from you, and on the other we are told to submit to government's under satan's control. This can't be. Either we shouldn't resist satan, or we shouldn't submit to his kingdoms. Both cannot be true, so it is logical that Paul wasn't talking about any secular kingdom on Earth, but rather the spiritual kingdom of Heaven in Roman's 13-1:7. In the original Greek nowhere in these verses is the word government used. I think it was without a doubt mistranslated on purpose.
God is always good!
#30. To: RickyJ (#29)
bump
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#31. To: Rotara (#27)
Thank's for being concerned about my soul but I'll take a pass on any of the Abrahamic religions and their terrible god (please buy a vowel) YHWH And handsome too ;)
forget Christians. seek the Living God. read your Bible
you're a decent guy, a smart guy and i'll bet well-liked and successful.
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
#32. To: RickyJ (#0)
Having survived the rapture, it is my opinion your interpretation is correct. Simply put, I don't believe Christians are bound to obey and support the manmade governments of this world. During my lifetime, I have witnessed so many churches go from that interpretation to one where they teach you are to obey the government. Perhaps they are now using the "Living Bible", which, in my opinion, was written by a government man, not a Christian!
I have always thought Romans 13 could not have been talking about civil governments because to do so would contradict many other scriptures in the New Testament
#33. To: Rotara (#28)
Shhhh! Quiet all up in there, ahahaha.
LOL i almost woke up the baby !
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein
The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
#34. To: Phant2000 (#32)
This is interesting. When did churches teach that Romans 13:1-7 was talking about a spiritual government and not a man made one? I have never heard them say it is talking about anything but man made government. To me it is clear the apostles and Jesus resisted unto death the "authority" of these man made governments. For Paul then to write that these people are "not a terror to good works", would of course be insane. I don't think Paul was insane, I think these verse have been misinterpreted and/or mistranslated on purpose. Scripture is not suppose to contradict other scripture and in Acts we are told to obey God rather than men.
Simply put, I don't believe Christians are bound to obey and support the manmade governments of this world. During my lifetime, I have witnessed so many churches go from that interpretation to one where they teach you are to obey the government.
God is always good!
#35. To: PSUSA (#24)
Interesting. Indeed. Sounds a lot like the thinking of Adam and Eve. Not submitting worked out real well for them, did it not?
You're goddamn right. Submitting is for pussies. Submitting because you dont understand why you're submitting, like you state is mandatory, is for stupid pussies.
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#36. To: RickyJ (#17)
Very well said. And correct. You should add, however, that it is not only separation eternally, but it is eternal destruction as well, or, as stated in the Bible, the 2nd death.
Hell is eternal separation from the creator.
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#37. To: RickyJ (#34)
The statement made in the Bible is that they are to obey God rather than men. If what men order is not in opposition to the mandates of God, then the men, placed in places of authority by the Christ Jesus, are to be obeyed. This is clear in the Bible, as neither the Christ nor the apostles ever advocated fighting or rebellion. If, however, man's governments order us to stop preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, they are to be peacefully resisted. The Christ, and each of the early diciples of his who were killed, were all killed for preaching as they were ordered to. NONE of them resisted other than peacefully.
To me it is clear the apostles and Jesus resisted unto death the "authority" of these man made governments.
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
#38. To: richard9151 (#35)
Depends on if you believe church doctrine or not. I'm guessing that you do, since you love to submit so much that you dont even care why you do it. Assuming it's accurate, but only for the sake of argument, I say it worked out great. It made them human, not slaves. Spitting in the tyrant 'gods' face set them free, thanks to the serpent. .
Interesting. Indeed. Sounds a lot like the thinking of Adam and Eve. Not submitting worked out real well for them, did it not?
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“Satanism is about walking against the grain and going against what is considered acceptable by society. Therefore, it is impossible to make it socially acceptable, because when it is accepted by society it is no longer Satanism.” -Unknown
#39. To: RickyJ (#18)
I don't know. But it is obvious evil people do control this world, That is clearly established in the Bible. And, it was stated as such as early as in the Book of Genesis, in chapter 3, verse 15. That verse also stated that there would be an end to evil, when the seed of Satan is bruised in the head. The entire story in the Bible begins with a paradise earth, and ends with the restoration of that paradise in the Book of Revelation. Everything in between is the details of what went wrong, and how it is to be fixed after all intelligent creation is allowed the time neccessary to learn what it is like to live without direction, and care, from God. The other side of the coin is that man has no solution to the problem. In the Book of Daniel, demonic princes of Persia and Greece are clearly shown contending with a faithful angel who was sent to minister to the prophet Daniel. This control of earthly governments by demons is restated in Luke; Luke 4;5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. So all of the power over the kingdoms of the earth belongs to Satan, and he gives it to whomever he wishes. Ever really wonder why Obama is president of the US? ANd by-the-way, the above is directly from the King James Bible. It is also important to note that this control of those governments was DELIVERED to Satan. By whom? Who established those authorities? Remember why I told you those authorities were established? Since the demons control the governments of earth, what solution do you propose, that is superior to the solution given by Jesus? Remember the Lord's prayer? Matthew 6;9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. This prayer is meant for us to petition Almighty God to return His rule to the earth, and get rid of Satan. Makes perfect sense to me, as it is the ONLY workable solution. As long as Satan is alive and in control, nothing can change.
That is a good question.
1 John 4;8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. : Matthew 22:39 ...‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
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