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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Church opposes Philippines family planning
Source: Guardian, UK
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jun 11, 2011
Author: Sunshine Lichauco de Leon
Post Date: 2011-06-11 00:44:03 by Tatarewicz
Keywords: None
Views: 352
Comments: 32

The Philippine government is debating a reproductive health bill, but the Catholic church adamantly oppose the idea. At the Dr Jose Fabella Memorial hospital 300 proud mothers lie three to a bed, cradling their newborns. With up to 100 babies born every 24 hours here, this is one of the busiest maternity wards in the world.

"Sometimes, during high season, 13 to 16 babies are in the delivery room at the same time," Arlene Matanguihan, a resident doctor, says. "It's chaotic but an organised chaos. We can still manage – no baby drops out on the floor."

The doctors and staff may be proud of their work, but the Philippines' birth rate is another matter. With a population of 90 million, expanding at 1.9% annually, many people are asking whether the country can sustain the growth rate.

In the Philippines 90% of the people are devout Roman Catholic and the majority of the population does not have access to birth control methods.

In Congress politicians are now debating family planning legislation, under the responsible parenthood-reproductive health bill; if passed, the legislation could transform birth control in Asia's most populous Catholic country, allowing government health clinics to educate people about various birth control methods and give easy access to them.

But it is proving divisive. Although local surveys find that a majority of the public supports the bill's passage, the politically influential Catholic church has adamantly opposed it. Members of the Catholics Bishops Conference of the Philippines have openly campaigned against it, threatening civil disobedience and to excommunicate the president, Benigno Aquino III, who backs the bill.

The Church has implied that birth control is the equivalent of abortion, which remains illegal in the country. CBCP's Father Melvin Castro says, "We are opposing God's will to procreate."

But politicians such as Congressman Edcel Lagman, author of the bill in the House of Representatives believe that access to family planning information and services will have both a positive immediate impact and a ripple effect on the country. Lagman believes the bill is both human rights based and a health measure.

"It will help give parents the chance to exercise their right to free and responsibly plan the number and spacing of their children, and help improve maternal newborn education and reduce infant and maternal mortality," Lagman says. "It will also give women more opportunities to finish their education and secure productive work, help reduce poverty by curbing the population growth rate and help reduce abortion by preventing unwanted pregnancies."

Even the country's President Aquino has voiced his support for this more comprehensive approach to future development of the country: "I know some sectors are against this bill, but it is the right thing to do. "It is right to educate our people, instead of holding them hostage to the scant resources available to them."

Politicians opposed to the bill, such as the representative Karlo Nograles, believe that its mandatory requirements go against free choice, and that the measure "creates more dangers than solutions". He believes that proposed mandatory sex education for children at the age of 11 will "violate the freedom of religion".

But Matanguihan agrees with the bill. A lot of her patients are from the poorest of backgrounds "and can't really afford to raise four or five children".

She said they needed to consider contraception to take better care of the children they already had in their family.

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#1. To: Tatarewicz (#0)

as usual, the Catholic church is still the primary opponent of the abortionists/eugenecists, as admiited by Margaret Sanger to Mike wallace in that famous 1960s tv interview.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-11   22:50:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Artisan (#1)

You're opposed to birth control pills?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-11   22:54:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Tatarewicz (#0)

She said they needed to consider contraception to take better care of the children they already had in their family.

Ya think?

Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.

Lod  posted on  2011-06-11   23:31:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: abraxas (#2)

yes, with good reason. Many times (& this is admitted by an increasing # of prolife protestant doctors) the pills do not prevent conception. but rather implantation, which is in effect an abortion.There are natural ways to prevent conception if need be.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   9:40:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: abraxas (#2)

There are also theological reasons behind it.Scripture is full of references condemning artificial birth control.People proudly thwarting God & nature by 'playing God' themselves, then they gripe about how illegals dont slaughter their progeny en mass too

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   9:45:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Artisan (#4)

the pills do not prevent conception. but rather implantation

This is only when a high dose of birth control pills are marketed and taken as the "morning after" pill, not through regular use of birth control pills which 99% of the time, when taken properly, prevent conception.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   11:24:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Artisan (#5)

Scripture is full of references condemning artificial birth control.

Please share these scriptural references condemning artificial birth control....

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   11:26:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: abraxas (#6)

Absolutely false. No, i am not referring to RU486, the socalled morning after pill. Regular everyday birth control pills prevent implantation, not conception. This is widely acknowledged by even the pro-aborts. A 10 second search will reveal this truth

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   11:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: abraxas (#7)

I cant paste right now, but a search for Scripture condemns birth control will get it. The most well known is in Genesis 38 when God kills Onan for purposely spillling his seed on the ground to avoid impregnating his brothers widow

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   11:37:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Artisan (#9)

Genesis 38 when God kills Onan for purposely spillling his seed on the ground to avoid impregnating his brothers widow

I can't find birth control in my Home Book of Bible Quotations.......lol

The problem God had with Onan was that he wasn't following his command to create offspring for his brother. Because "Onan knew the the offspring wouldn't be his" and so his ego didn't want to produce offspring FOR his brother. Onan's EGO was the issue.

It really isn't relative to birth control at all, IMHO. Given how many pregnancies occur when a guy pulls out, it's difficult to fathom how the Lord couldn't just intervene for the conception if He so desired.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   11:51:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Artisan (#8)

Regular everyday birth control pills prevent implantation, not conception.

No, the pill works to prevent ovulation--no egg/no conception. Progesterone and Estrogen are the hormones in the pill that work by keeping a woman’s ovaries from releasing eggs — ovulation. Pregnancy cannot happen if there is no egg to join with sperm. The hormones in the pill also prevent pregnancy by thickening a woman’s cervical mucus. The mucus blocks sperm and keeps it from joining with an egg.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   11:57:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: abraxas (#11)

there may be times when there is no conception, but by no means do birth control pills prevent conception every time. Matter of fact, the opposite is true. Usually, there is indeed conception, but the pills prevent implantation,. (thus, its an abortion). Like i said before, this "painful truth" (painful to the abortionists, if their billions of unwitting pawns find out about it and have their conscience twinged) is widely admitted by even the pro abort doctors, as well as increasingly by the protestant preechers, who up until decades ago, opposed birth control just like the Catholics did. protestant acceptance of artificial birth control is a relatively new thing.

You can type in the words birth control abortifacient in a google search. Here it is!: birth control abortifacient I will get the Scriptures for you in a bit.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   12:48:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: All, ABRAXAS (#12)

here is just some of the data.... http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

"Birth Control" Pills cause early Abortions

By J.T. Finn (updated April 23, 2005)

Physicians across America -- and around the world -- are now confirming that the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant cause early abortions.

First, a look at the Pill. Research shows that in many cases the Pill causes early abortions -- abortions the mother may not even know she's having. You may find this shocking, but the facts are clear after reading Randy Alcorn's book, titled;

"Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?"

Here's what 11 physicians and medical professionals are saying about the book Randy Alcorn published in 1998:

1. "From medical textbooks and pharmacy references, to statements from the Pill- manufacturers themselves, this book proves, beyond any doubt, the abortion- causing action of birth control pills. This book should be read by everyone interested in knowing the truth."

~ Paul L. Hayes, M.D., Board Certified Fellow of the American College of Obstetricians/Gynecologists

2. "Does the birth control pill cause abortions? Using research results from medical literature, Randy Alcorn has convincingly shown that the answer is `yes.' He has, with care and compassion, given us the truth. The question for us as Christians is how we will respond now that we know."

~ Linda Martin, M.D., Pediatrician

3. "By carefully detailing the available medical information concerning the abortifacient effects of oral contraceptives, Randy Alcorn has developed a logical and thoughtful challenge to every prolife person. The conclusions of this study are scientifically accurate. Birth control pills usually prevent pregnancy, but sometimes they cause an abortion. Questions? Objections? Randy has addressed them in a gentle but firm way. This is the manner in which the often fiery debate over prolife subjects should be carried out- unemotionally, intelligently and quietly. The evidence is before us . . . `How should we then live?'"

~ Patrick D. Walker, M.D., Professor of Pathology, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences

4. "In this challenging book Randy Alcorn has the honesty to face a tough and uncomfortable question. This compelling evidence will make you rethink the question of birth control pills."

~ John Brose, M.D., Surgeon

5. "In this impeccably researched book, Randy Alcorn takes an unblinking look at what medical experts know about how birth control pills work. I painfully agree that birth control pills do in fact cause abortions. Our individual and collective Christian response to this heretofore varnished-over information will have profound consequences for time and eternity. This is a disturbing must-read for all who profess to be prolife."

~ Beverly A. McMillan, M.D., Ob/Gyn

6. "Randy Alcorn has done exceptional work. The facts in this book parallel much of my own research. I am delighted he would undertake such a work when others seek to avoid the subject. This book is a must for Christians, particularly those in medicine and Christian ministries."

~ Karen D. Garnett, R.N.

7. "No prolife physician can rightly prescribe BCPs [birth control pills] after reviewing this data. I have started circulating this information."

~ Randall Martin, M.D., Chairman, Department of Anesthesiology, Columbia Willamette Valley Medical Center

8. "Scientific papers suggest that escape ovulation occurs 4-15% of all cycles in patients taking birth control pills. Thus, as this booklet points out, early chemical abortions are a real and significant concern."

~ Paddy Jim Baggot, M.D., Ob/Gyn, Fellow of the American College of Medical Genetics

9. "Randy Alcorn has thoroughly studied and written on an area where little published scientific information exists. His responses to this issue, and his outstanding appendices, are must reading."

~ William M. Petty, M.D., Surgeon, Gynecologic Oncology

10. "Randy Alcorn has once again demonstrated his tenacity and integrity in pursuing the truth. He has exposed the abortifacient properties of so-called birth control agents. This booklet should be required reading for all discerning Christians who wish to fully live out their faith."

~ William L. Toffler, M.D., Professor of Family Medicine, Oregon Health Sciences University

11. "I endorse Randy Alcorn's book with gusto. He has answered the title question with the care and compassion of a pastor, having searched out the facts with the diligence of an experienced researcher. He has provided all women in their reproductive years with an invaluable resource which will allow them to be fully informed about the birth control pill."

~ William F. Colliton, Jr., M.D., Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, George Washington University Medical Center

You may go to Randy Alcorn's web site and read a summary of this 88-page book by clicking here. You may also order the inexpensive book from his site.

More facts about the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant:

Again, if you're reading about CHEMICAL ABORTIONS for the first time, this may surprise, or even shock you. Most Americans are not aware that the Pill and other chemical "contraceptives" cause millions of "non-surgical" abortions each year in the early weeks of pregnancy. If you are using the Pill, Depo-Provera or Norplant, you need to know the truth about how these products work.

Most women take these "contraceptives" because they don't want to have a baby. But how many women know they can have BREAKTHROUGH OVULATIONS and become pregnant while using these "contraceptives?" Very few! And how many of these women know that if they become pregnant after a BREAKTHROUGH OVULATION, these "contraceptives" will almost always kill any son or daughter they've conceived?

Most people don't know the real facts about how "contraceptives" work. And because of this lack of knowledge, most women are not aware that they may be having BREAKTHROUGH OVULATIONS, and conceiving children that are killed very early in the pregnancy. Women using these "contraceptives" almost never perceive that they have become pregnant, or that chemicals have killed their tiny baby.

What is Breakthrough Ovulation?

While using the Pill and other chemical "birth control" products, many women's ovaries continue to release eggs. This is called "Breakthrough Ovulation" and it occurs in millions of women each year. Once an egg has been released via ovulation, a woman can become pregnant.

You can still conceive a child . . .

If you're using "birth control" products and you have a breakthrough ovulation that releases an egg, sperm can then reach and fertilize your egg. At that moment -- you would be pregnant! Fertilization means conception has taken place and you now have a brand new son or daughter who is as complete genetically as he or she will ever be throughout life.

When Does Human Life Begin?

Internationally-known geneticists and biologists have testified that human life begins at conception. In 1981 (April 23-24) a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on the question: When does human life begin? The following doctors testified:

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman of the Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, said: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

Dr. McCarthy de Mere, a medical doctor and law professor at the University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

Dr. Jerome Lejeune, The Father of Modern Genetics, testified that, "Each of us has a very precise starting moment which is the time at which the whole necessary and sufficient genetic information is gathered inside one cell, the fertilized egg, and this is the moment of fertilization. There is not the slightest doubt about that and we know that this information is written on a kind of ribbon we call the DNA."

The late Dr. Lejeune of Paris, France, discovered the genetic cause of Down Syndrome. He received the Kennedy Prize for this discovery, as well as the Memorial Allen Award Medal, the world's highest award for work in the field of Genetics.

How does the Pill work?

The Pill has three mechanisms of action which can easily be looked up in the Physician's Desk Reference.

1) Sometimes, the Pill suppresses ovulation. When this happens, an egg is not released and conception cannot occur. (It's important to read on and find out about the high rates of breakthrough ovulation. When ovulation is not suppressed, pregnancy can occur.)

2) The Pill also works to thicken the woman's cervical mucus which can "restrict" sperm from moving up the reproductive tract toward the egg.

3) One way the Pill causes early abortions is that it interfers with the flexing motions and the cilia movement of the fallopian tubes. These changes slow the transportation of newly conceived child from the fallopian tubes to the womb. Unfortunately, many small babies starve to death in the fallopian tubes because chemicals caused changes that prevented them from reaching the womb in time to be nourished.

4) Another way the Pill causes early abortions: If your tiny baby survives the ride down the fallopian tube to your womb, the Pill will almost always cause the endometrium (the lining of your uterus) to reject your child. Chemical reactions often cause the lining of your womb to become thin, shriveled and unable to support implantation of your newly conceived child.

This means that in almost every case, your new child will not be able to attach to the wall of your womb where he or she would normally live, grow and receive nourishment for 9 months. This means your tiny baby will starve to death and his or her remains will be passed along in your next bleeding cycle. (The "Study of Abortion Deaths Commission" estimates that this happens in women in America who use the Pill approximately 1 to 4 million times each year.)

The chemicals that cause these early abortions are called abortifacients which is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion.

Depo-Provera, Norplant and IUDs

Depo-Provera and Norplant both use chemicals that work in very simlar ways on a woman's body and womb. Depo-Provera and Norplant are also considered chemical abortifacients.

IUDs or Intra-Uterine Devices, are small plastic devices that are inserted into the womb. Some IUDs contain copper or a time released hormone. It is believed that the IUD causes a low grade inflammation in the lining of the womb. As a result, the lining of the womb is imperfect and the fertilized egg will not implant. (Source: This paragraph on IUDs is quoted directly from the Calgary Regional Health Authority's web site.)

Because of the chemical effect an IUD has on a woman's womb, tiny babies are aborted. Therefore, IUDs are also considered abortifacients.

Breakthrough ovulation proved long ago . . .

Birth control advocates and manufacturers of the Pill have known these facts for years. Have they done a very good job of informing women about how the Pill really works? (Please email us and let us know if you were aware of how the Pill worked before you read this.)

MORE AT LINK http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   12:52:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: abraxas (#10)

CONTRACEPTION www.scripturecatholic .com/contraception.html

Scripture Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.

Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.

Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.

Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.

Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.

1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."

Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.

Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.

Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.

Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.

Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.

Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.

Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.

1 Cor. 7:5 - this verse supports the practice of natural family planning ("NFP"). Married couples should not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally.

Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.

Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self- centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.

Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.

1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.

Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.

Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

Top

Tradition / Church Fathers "Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" Letter of Barnabas 10:8 (A.D. 74).

"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 (A.D. 191).

"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 2:10:95:3 (A.D. 191).

“[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered." Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies 9:12 (A.D. 225).

"[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife." Lactantius, Divine Institutes 6:20 (A.D. 307).

"God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring.” Lactantius, Divine 6:23:18 (A.D. 307).

"[I]f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy." Council of Nicaea I, Canon 1 (A.D. 325).

"They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." Epiphanius of Salamis, Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 (A.D. 375).

"This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her is joined to the man to gratify his passion." Augustine, The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 (A.D. 388).

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well…Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws?…Yet such turpitude…the matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 24 (A.D. 391).

"[I]n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father’s old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet, and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 28:5 (A.D. 391).

"[T]he man who has mutilated himself, in fact, is subject even to a curse, as Paul says, ‘I would that they who trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]. And very reasonably, for such a person is venturing on the deeds of murderers, and giving occasion to them that slander God’s creation, and opens the mouths of the Manicheans, and is guilty of the same unlawful acts as they that mutilate themselves among the Greeks. For to cut off our members has been from the beginning a work of demonical agency, and satanic device, that they may bring up a bad report upon the works of God, that they may mar this living creature, that imputing all not to the choice, but to the nature of our members, the more part of them may sin in security as being irresponsible, and doubly harm this living creature, both by mutilating the members and by impeding the forwardness of the free choice in behalf of good deeds." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 62:3 (A.D. 391).

"But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?" Jerome, Against Jovinian 1:19 (A.D. 393).

"Observe how bitterly he [Paul] speaks against their deceivers…‘I would that they which trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]…On this account he curses them, and his meaning is as follows: ‘For them I have no concern, "A man that is heretical after the first and second admonition refuse" [Titus 3:10]. If they will, let them not only be circumcised but mutilated.’ Where then are those who dare to mutilate themselves, seeing that they draw down the apostolic curse, and accuse the workmanship of God, and take part with the Manichees?" John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians 5:12 (A.D. 395).

"You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility and murder a man not yet born, [and some commit abortion]." Jerome, Letters 22:13 (A.D. 396).

"You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your law [against childbearing]…they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [1 Tim. 4:1–4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps.” Augustine, Against Faustus 15:7 (A.D. 400).

"For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny." Augustine, Against Faustus 22:30 (A.D. 400).

"For necessary sexual intercourse for begetting [children] is alone worthy of marriage. But that which goes beyond this necessity no longer follows reason but lust. And yet it pertains to the character of marriage…to yield it to the partner lest by fornication the other sin damnably [through adultery]…[T]hey [must] not turn away from them the mercy of God…by changing the natural use into that which is against nature, which is more damnable when it is done in the case of husband or wife. For, whereas that natural use, when it pass beyond the compact of marriage, that is, beyond the necessity of begetting [children], is pardonable in the case of a wife, damnable in the case of a harlot; that which is against nature is execrable when done in the case of a harlot, but more execrable in the case of a wife. Of so great power is the ordinance of the Creator, and the order of creation, that . . . when the man shall wish to use a body part of the wife not allowed for this purpose [orally or anally consummated sex], the wife is more shameful, if she suffer it to take place in her own case, than if in the case of another woman." Augustine, The Good of Marriage 11–12 (A.D. 401).

"I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility…Assuredly if both husband and wife are like this, they are not married, and if they were like this from the beginning they come together not joined in matrimony but in seduction. If both are not like this, I dare to say that either the wife is in a fashion the harlot of her husband or he is an adulterer with his own wife." Augustine, Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 (A.D. 419).

"Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. If a woman does not wish to have children, let her enter into a religious agreement with her husband; for chastity is the sole sterility of a Christian woman." Caesarius of Arles, Sermons 1:12 (A.D. 522).

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   12:56:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Artisan (#12)

this "painful truth"

Usually, there is indeed conception, but the pills prevent implantation

I don't know where you get your information, but I am a woman who has dealt with this issue. I have a long history of amenorrhœa and when the egg fails to drop there is NO CHANCE of conception.

Projestogen based BC pills actually create amenorrhoea: Hormonal contraceptives that contain only progestogen like the oral contraceptive Micronor, and especially higher-dose formulations like the injectable Depo Provera commonly induce this side-effect. Extended cycle use of combined hormonal contraceptives also allow suppression of menstruation.

Conception requires AN EGG. How you can argue this is beyond me....... Sorry, Artisan, but the "painful truth" is that you don't know much about women's cycles or hormones or even what is required for conception. In any BC pill that works on the hormonal aspect, the egg isn't dropping.....no egg/no conception. Simple fact.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   13:02:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: All, abraxas, jethro tull, i think JT is the only other Catholic who posts at 4um, lol (#14)

abraxas: By pasting that info was not meant to quash the discussion, as i know that few people read long cut& pastes. I dont know if you are pro abortion or not, meaning, if you think abortion should remain legal. Many women and american men and woman who are against abortion, and rightly think it is murder, do in fact use birth control pills. they sincerely have no clue that using birth control pils causes untold # of abortions (again, this is admitted by the birth control pill makers themselves! The pill inserts themselves are not lying, and were not printed & sneakily placed into the pill boxes by Catholic anti contraception zealots, lol.)

I also know that this is a very difficult issue for couples who are often struggling to pay the bills they have, mush less have a cadre of kids they cant afford, care for, or handle.

This is where discipline and faith come in. I also know that a great number of contemporary Catholics, Im not sure if the majority, use artificial birth control methods, either pills, condoms, iud, etc. They know that their religion forbids it, but they justify it in their minds. I am not denying that catholics use pills. I am just stating what I learned about all this many years ago. I took a months long class on this topic, as was suggested to all Catholic couples before they get married. NFP (natural family planning leaves open the potential for pregnancy, but is very effective and less harmful to women and families. it involves absitnance at certain times, and temperature, the womans cycle, etc. (Frankly, it is a PITA, lol!) HOWEVER, it is well worth it. people can just not be lazy slugs and just do what THEY want. That is not what life is about. We have to try to be pleasing to the Lord.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   13:09:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: abraxas (#15)

i guess you have never read the insert of the birth control pills themselves. they admit that pills can allow conception, and prevent implantation. I know exactly what i am talking about,. The head of medical schools admit it. do a two second search. and the fact that you continually refuse to acknowledge what the abortion advocates THEMSELVES CONCEDE, raises other questions. Are you claiming that any woman who ever took a birth control pill can with absolutely 100% certainty not conceieve? if so, that is blatant hogwash acknowledged by both the pro life and plannned parenthood people. You will have to explain where you heard this false info, and dispute it for yourself. Because i am not confused in the least about how birth control pills cause millions of abortions. Of course you will probably again ignore all the billions of links acknowledging this, so our discussion is apparently at an impasse.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   13:17:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Artisan (#17)

The insert clearly states that the pill must be taken at the same time everyday to prevent conception. If this is done, the effective rate at conception prevention is 99% and this is for Estrogen plus Progesterone pills. This secondary concern of yours arises when the pill is not taken consistently.

Women who take only progesterone based BC do not ovulate and therefore cannot get pregnant. No egg~no conception. So, the Catholic Church should advocate this type of BC that has no POSSIBILITY of hormones working to keep an egg from implanting because the egg dropping is prevented by the hormone.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   13:44:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Artisan (#17)

they admit that pills can allow conception, and prevent implantation.

IF the pill is not taken at the SAME TIME EVERYDAY!

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   13:45:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: abraxas (#19)

Dr. Ronald Chez, a scientist at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), publicly stated that the new Pills of today, with their lower estrogen dose, allow ovulation up to 50% of the time! (Source: Sterns, David, M.D., Sterns, Gina, R.N., B.S.N., Yaksich, Pamela, "Gambling with Life, How the I.U.D. and 'The Pill' Work" (www.top.net/vitalsigns).

i really think you should read the link i posted. it has such as the following. (taking the pill at different times increases the risk of breakthrough ovulation even further, but it occurs anyway, even if the pill is taken at the same time every day):

www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

In her award winning study of women taking the earlier high dose Pills, Dutch gynecologist Dr. Nine Van der Vange showed "proof of ovulation based on ultrasound exams and hormonal indicators occurred in about 4.7% of the cycles studied." (Source: Sterns, Dr. David, "How the Pill and the IUD Work: Gambling with Life," American Life League, PO Box 1350, Stafford, VA 22555)

And the "Textbook of Contraceptive Practice" states that, "Among women who have been followed over a considerable number of cycles, breakthrough ovulations occur in 2 to 10 percent of cycles." (Source: Dr. J. Peel & Dr. Malcolm Potts, Textbook of Contraceptive Practice, 1969, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press)

Please note that these references are to the lower breakthrough ovulation rates of the Pills of the 1960's. The new Pills of the 1990's work differently and have much higher breakthrough ovulation rates. This will be explained as you read on.

Why the big secret?

Why aren't most women aware that the Pill causes early abortions? Let's look at the large pharmaceutical companies who advertise, market and sell the Pill. They make huge profits from the Pill -- and they'll continue to make mega- profits -- if women are convinced they're not getting pregnant and they keep buying and taking the Pill everyday. But are they being honest with you? Have they clearly explained that their products cause millions of early chemical abortions each year?

The New Pills: Much Higher Rates of Breakthrough Ovulation . . .

The original Pill of the 1960's had to be modified due to harmful side effects that women were experiencing because of the powerful chemicals. All versions of today's "Combination Pill" have a reduced hormonal content. When compared to the Pills of the 1960's and 1970's, this reduces the chance of harmful side effects for women, but it also increases their chances of ovulating and conceiving a son or daughter.

Dr. Ronald Chez, a scientist at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), publicly stated that the new Pills of today, with their lower estrogen dose, allow ovulation up to 50% of the time! (Source: Sterns, David, M.D., Sterns, Gina, R.N., B.S.N., Yaksich, Pamela, "Gambling with Life, How the I.U.D. and 'The Pill' Work" (www.top.net/vitalsigns).

With these newer Pills, simply missing one tablet, or failing to take the Pill at the same time each day increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation. Reactions with other drugs increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation, especially with caffeine and nicotine, or some prescription medicine (Source: "Abortifacient Contraception: The Pharmaceutical Holocaust" by Dr. Rudolf Ehmann, Human Life Intl., 1993, p.15).

Makers of the new "mini-pill" claim it does not have the side effects of the combination pill. However, they don't tell you that scientific research shows the mini-pill does not stop ovulation at all in 67-81% of the women who use it, so the probability of conception is much higher. (Source: Tonti-Fillippini, Nicholas, Linacre Quarterly, 1995)

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   13:52:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Artisan (#20)

With these newer Pills, simply missing one tablet, or failing to take the Pill at the same time each day increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation.

(taking the pill at different times increases the risk of breakthrough ovulation even further, but it occurs anyway, even if the pill is taken at the same time every day):

Even your own post supports what I have been saying all along........

I don't even know that this "mini pill" they are referring to contains.

There is nothing in you link to substantiate that the pill IS taken at the same time everyday.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   14:03:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: abraxas (#18)

So, the Catholic Church should advocate this type of BC that has no POSSIBILITY of hormones working to keep an egg from implanting because the egg dropping is prevented by the hormone.

it's not only the possibility of an abortion occurring that is the theological reason in opposition to artificial birth control. Even if a pill was 100% effective in sabotagueing conception, it is still morally wrong. I pasted in the long post above the scripture references that you asked for. There is actually a disagreement amonst some Catholics that even the Catholic NFP approved method is wrong because it should only be done for 'severe' & grave reasons. Nevertheless, NFP is approved, & despite being very effective, it still leaves open the remote possibility of pregnancy.

Many women do not like the side effects of a pill. If a woman doesnt want to use pills, an ovulation test is a simple way to see if they are likely to become pregnant. the NFP class also teaches couples how to know the womans body more intimately. If a woman does not have a regular menstrual cycle, the NFP method becomes more difficult. This is not addressed adequately in the NFP classes, in my opinion. especially since many women nowdays for various reasons, do not have regular cycles. this is where the ovulation test comes in.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   14:04:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Artisan (#20)

Okay, mini pill progesterone based.......depends on the levels as to the effectiveness, but this is not even broached by your source.

The mechanism of action of progestogen-only contraceptives depends on the progestogen activity and dose.

Very-low-dose progestogen-only contraceptives, such as traditional progestogen-only pills (and subdermal implants Norplant and Jadelle and intrauterine systems Progestasert and Mirena), inconsistently inhibit ovulation in ~50% of cycles and rely mainly on their progestogenic effect of thickening the cervical mucus, thereby reducing sperm viability and penetration. (THIS IS THE ONLY TYPE THAT EVEN APPLIES TO YOUR SOURCE)

Intermediate-dose progestogen-only contraceptives, such as the progestogen-only pill Cerazette (or the subdermal implant Implanon), allow some follicular development but much more consistently inhibit ovulation in 97–99% of cycles. The same cervical mucus changes occur as with very-low-dose progestogens.

High-dose progestogen-only contraceptives, such as the injectables Depo-Provera and Noristerat, completely inhibit follicular development and ovulation. The same cervical mucus changes occur as with very-low-dose and intermediate-dose progestogens. 100%!

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   14:08:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: abraxas (#21)

I don't even know that this "mini pill" they are referring to contains.

The Food and Drug Administration stated in 1978 that:

Combination oral contraceptives . . . [make] alterations in the genital tract including changes in the . . . endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation) . . . but progestogen only contraceptives [re: mini-pills] are known to alter the cervical mucus, exert a progestational effect on the endometrium, interfering with implantation. (Emphasis added)

www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

Medical Publications confirm the facts . . .

"The Physicians' Desk Reference" quoted a Searle brochure (Searle is a major pharmaceutical manufacturer of the Pill) which states that the mini-pill: makes the womb (uterus) less receptive to any fertilized egg that reaches it. (Emphasis added)

"Nursing '85 Drug Handbook" states: Progestogen...also caused endometrial changes that prevent implantation of the fertilized ovum. (Emphasis added)

"The Pill - How Does It Work?" By Albert D. Lorincz, M.D.: Cites a study of 1,200 women given a daily amount of progestogen equivalent to many birth control pills. 60% of them ovulated.

"Birth Control: Why Are They Lying to Women?" By J.C. Espinoza, M.D. (page 27) cites research which showed a 30% ovulation rate in women taking a combined Pill preparation

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   14:11:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Artisan, 4 (#16)

I'm certain this has nothing to do with the thread, but this IS a carbon copy of St Thomas Aquinas, circa late 50s, early 60s. As God is my witness, this was my introduction to the CC. Subsequently, in the mid 90s, I got to know Malachi Martin, who was the most interesting man I have ever met. He left me with wonderful memories of what it was like to have grown in a neighborhood, where the parish was the center of many aspects of our lives. Vatican II was a total and complete capitulation to Zionism and the hollow church of today is doomed to go the way of the Dodo.

Now where were we....:P

"Now more than ever, we need access to the crucial authorities in the Patriot Act"

- Attorney General Eric Holder

Jethro Tull  posted on  2011-06-12   14:11:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Artisan (#22)

it is still morally wrong

IMHO, it is less morally wrong than having children that cannot be cared and provided for properly. Yes, I perused the scriptural basis for your argument and, to be quite Frank, I feel it is a stretch. : )

Your rhythm method has a 25% chance of pregnancy....not stellar odds. Surely, not a "remote" possibility as you claim.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   14:13:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: abraxas (#23)

This is interesting. even the abortionists when lawyering up, have to admit the following:

From Birth Control Advocates

Lawyers from organizations that promote abortion have admitted in print and in legal briefs that these products cause abortions. A Tulane Law School Professor wrote:

...nearly all birth control devices, except the diaphragm and the condom, operate between the time of conception and implantation... (Emphasis added)

Attorney Frank Sussman argued in the U.S. Supreme Court: ...IUDs [and] low dose birth control pills...act as abortifacients.

The Big Lie

Propoganda from many pharmaceutical companies promotes a new definition of CONCEPTION. Their new definition is absolutely untruthful and totally unscientific. They created this new definition of when a child is conceived to help them sell their products with the label "contraceptives." Their new definition says that conception occurs only when your baby successfully attaches to the lining of your uterus. THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE!

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   14:15:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Artisan (#24)

in 1978

You are using data that is 33 years old? Very few Progesterone based pills were even available at that time.....

I provided you with current data on this issue, detailing the three types and the effectiveness at preventing conception.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   14:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Artisan (#22)

it is still morally wrong

Condoms stop the sperm.......are they "morally wrong" too? The rhythm method works to stop fertility is this "morally wrong" too? IUD's stop conception are they "morally wrong" too?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

abraxas  posted on  2011-06-12   14:34:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: abraxas (#28)

You are using data that is 33 years old? Very few Progesterone based pills were even available at that time.....

I provided you with current data on this issue, detailing the three types and the effectiveness at preventing conception.

even if a woman is 'on the pill', many become pregnant which itself refutes the claim that no ovulation can occur when on the 'pill'. You can argue that "oh, none of these women took their pills properly!" but it doesnt wash.

One reference that i copied was from 1978, but hundreds of examples from the link are from doctors, abortionists & the big pharma eguencsists them selves (who push these 'pills') admit that current birth control pills do not guarantee preventing conception. they do, however, oftentimes prevent implantation.

I do not believe that NFP, if properly practiced, results in 25% pregnancies. I bet that number came from the abortionists.

But, as i said earlier, the majority oif Christian women are on pills and having abortions daily, and even many catholic women are on pills too, so for now, it appears your side is winning in the sphere of public opinion. However, just the fact that planned parenthood pushes the exact same arguement that you do, should greatly concern you as to it's validity, agenda, & truthfulness.

If you can sincerely read that entire page and still insist that women arent unwittingly having abortions while taking pills, I dont know what else to say, other than I hope that others sincerely interested in the truth about birth control pills will read it for themselves:
"Birth Control" Pills cause early Abortions

http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html ..

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   14:44:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: abraxas (#29)

Aside our bickering about the effects of pills, which is accomplishing nothing since we will never believe each other, the immorality of artificial birth control is very cut & dried. The Scriptural references in #14 you dismissed entirely also, although i doubt you looked even one of them up. (note that the references do not list the scripture itself). ARtificial birth control is immoral because the person is playing God, and thwarting God, nature, and the purpose of the conjugal act. NFP is not immoral, because it leaves open the possibility of life without killing it (unlike pills, iud etc).

Also, why do you state that the iud prevents conception? It possibly does, but possibly does not, as even the mainstream pregnancy websites admit that it works by both methods! The fact that you "conveniently" completely disregarded this 2nd way IUD works simply shows that you are biased possibly without even realizing it!:

www.america http://npregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/iud.html How do intrauterine devices work? The progesterone intrauterine device releases a constant low dose of a synthetic hormone continually throughout the day. Both the progesterone IUD and copper IUD prevent pregnancy in one of two ways:

The released progesterone or copper creates changes in the cervical mucus and inside the uterus that kills sperm or makes them immobile. Changes the lining of the uterus, preventing implantation should fertilization occur. Ethical Consideration.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   15:11:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Jethro Tull (#25)

geez, that is nitemarish, but ive heard similar stories. Ive never seen that movie. I know that there are a lot more churches these days offering Mass in Latin, like the old days before VII. In California there are a lot of them. Of course i know that the language change was only a small part of the attempted destruction of the church post VII.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2011-06-12   15:20:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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