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Title: It hertz when you do that – power grid to stop regulating 60 Hz frequency
Source:
Watts Up With That?
URL Source: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/ ... op-regulating-60-hz-frequency/
Published: Jun 27, 2011
Author: Anthony Watts
Post Date: 2011-06-27 17:38:08 by farmfriend
Ping List: *Agriculture-Environment* Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*
Keywords: None
Views: 449
Comments: 28
Posted on June 25, 2011 by Anthony Watts “Experiment” on the US power grid will change the way some clocks and other equipment function. Story submitted by Joe Ryan The AP has released an “exclusive” story concerning the nationwide “experiment” that will be conducted on the US power grid. The experiment will relieve the power providers from the duty of regulating the frequency of power on the line. Normally the power stations condition their power to a frequency of 60 cycles a second, a frequency that many old clocks use to maintain their time. With the new standard, or lack of standard, these clocks will stop keeping time properly. But the problem is more than that. First, we have this gem from Joe McLelland who heads the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (from AP article): “Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?” McClelland said. “Let’s see if anyone complains if we eliminate it.” … forgive me for not getting warm fuzzies from this. Likewise, Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time service department at the U.S. Naval Observatory, had this to say (AP Article again): “A lot of people are going to have things break and they’re not going to know why,” So, we have what appears to be an untested, for the hell of it, “experimental” major change to the US electrical grid coming in a few weeks and those in charge aren’t really sure how it will work or if it may break something? Not only is this what a LAB is for, but it is also something that the Federal Government should be TELLING people about in advance, and not in an AP “exclusive” press release.
It hertz when you do that – power grid to stop regulating 60 Hz frequency
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#1. To: farmfriend (#0)
This is insanity.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
Considering that capacitive reactance (Xc = 1/2pieFC), inductive reactance (Xl = 2pieFL), and impedance (Z = square root of resistance squared plus Xl squared) are all directly or indirectly proportional to frequency, I imagine all sorts of shit is going to break that has nothing to do with time.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
Just damn. I'm impressed. The hottest time of the year is a really smart time to experiment on us...
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
Better throw a 60 kilo-amp fuse on that flux-capacitor in every refrigerator....
__________________________________________________________ Damn, I haven't seen those formulas in a long time.
It is the different reactances that will cause the clocks to speed up and/or slow down. However, depending upon how large the variances are it could also cause IC chips to short out.
I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. - Benjamin Franklin
Please keep us posted of what, if anything's to be done: I am ignorant of all that you've posted. Thanks much.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
Jesus Christ, it goes well beyond insanity, it looks like they're trying to put us back into the dark ages. I've got so much equipment that requires decent power, I don't even want to think about it. Our slide into third-worldom continues unabated. No, third-world describes countries that never developed. Why, we can be the world's first fourth-world country. Yeah, that's the ticket! Woo-Hoo! WE'RE # 1! WE'RE # 1! USA! USA! Leading the world with 89-151 VAC, 53.7 Hz +/- 30% power! Christ, what next?
I'll bet a bunch of manufacturers come out with a sort of surge protector that will have the necessary resistors and capacitors to re-introduce the 60 Hz cycle to stuff plugged into it.
If you wanted to further cripple the America Economy and impoverish the American Citizenry this is a great way to do it. You break a large number of major electrical appliances that rely on reliable 60 Hz input and then with people forced to replace them they are further beggared by the necessity. One way around this is to install your own regulator, and better, but more expensive, a complete regeneration system that converts the unstable AC input to DC and then rebuilds the 60 cycle power. Very high end stereo systems already do this because power quality input affects audio quality. However, it is not cheap.
While I have not done enough research to make specific reccomendations - there are already "off the shelf" solutions. There are products already on the market for both audiophiles and the computer biz where clean power is essential. What I am researching, and just started, are regeneration systems that take an AC input, convert it to DC, and then regenerate a stable AC waveform free of any noise. There is another benefit besides protecting and extending the life of appliances, computers, and other sensitive electronics. I have heard reports, not documented, that mood control frequencies and such are transmitted over the power grid. By rectifying the AC into your house to DC and then regenerating a pure waveform you remove any such "noise".
how many products are made these days with universal motors that run on DC to 100+ hertz? of course my sewing machines from the fifties and early sixties have such motors and unaffected by strays in the power frequency. the problem lies with those products using induction motors which is just about everything these days due to the low cost of manufacturing them. keeping time is the least of my worries, lets face it time is relative.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." ~ Ben Franklin "For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry
Keep looking, and I'll start doing the same.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." ~ Ben Franklin "For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry
Will do. One that I know is good, but expensive, is PS Audio's top of the line regenerator. However, it is 4500 per copy - and maxes out at 1250 Watts/70 Amps. What I want to find is something a little less pricey. The other drawback is that none of these devices are 100% efficient. The PS Audio device is 85% efficient - meaning you waste 15% of the power coming in.
Not a clue.
"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." -Padme, Star Wars III, Sith
U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." ~ Ben Franklin "For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry
What will be funnier than hell would be if 50 million housewives have to completely reprogram the personal video recorders for their favorite soap boxes. Then again. Then again ....
U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY
Other interesting scenarios will be the thousands of time sensitive devices found in banks and hospitals. Computers are very power sensitive. One in every home.
U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY
Computers are highly sensitive to electrical power variations. Wonder if all the computers bound to be affected will disturb the internet? This is bound to be bad.
Woops! Did not see your comment. Great minds think alike.
I have an old deep-freeze from the mid-Fifties. Will this harm the old appliances like that? Or is it the newer stuff that won't work so well? Don't the old CRT televisions require a synchronized 59.99Hz signal to redraw their fields/frames? I always thought that it was required for them. So will this break them (assuming they are connected to a digital tuner converter box)? What about if you connect a VCR or a DVD to a CRT TV?
does the freezer have a separate motor and compressor? if it does look to see if the motor has a single or double capacitor mount, these would be the start and if double the run capacitors and not so much affected by offs in the frequency. I'm not sure about now but the old Commodore 64 I learned programing on used a 9VAC line from the power supply to keep time on the jiffy clock with a jiffy being one sixtieth of a second. induction motors would be the most affected as they require a fairly stable polarity shifting in the windings to keep the shaft turning at the target speed/torque. in electronics inefficiency becomes heat, heat leads to the kindling point which only requires fuel and oxygen for a flame. a DVD player connected to a CRT TV is only connected by the audio video signal so no issue there, however, the DVD or VCR does use an induction motor to make it work, big issue. how the DVD's laser would be affected could also be an issue.
Looking at the source article, I'm seeing this: The group that oversees the U.S. power grid is proposing a change that has the potential to disrupt electric clocks in schools, hospitals and other institutions, according to a company presentation obtained by The Associated Press. It may also mess with the timing of traffic lights, security systems, sprinklers and some personal computer software and hardware. Since 1930, electric clocks have kept time based on the rate of the electrical current that powers them. If the current slips off its usual rate, clocks run a little fast or slow. Power companies now take steps to correct it and keep the frequency of the current — and the time — as precise as possible. Doesn't sound quite so deadly here. I think this story relies on ginning up the dire "threat", assuming most readers are too lazy to go read the actual story for themselves. The system as is already generates small deviations. They just want to loosen them so they don't have to buy so much equipment trying to keep it so precise. It's an engineering question, entirely legitimate for the industry to pursue. People want more energy but complain when the prices go up.
I'm really not concerned what they do with the grid, I've been switching over to solar power and provide for my own line conditioning through the inverters I use.
You have to admit that is a pretty small deviation from the current standard.
#2. To: farmfriend (#0)
“A lot of people are going to have things break and they’re not going to know why,”
#3. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#2)
Considering that capacitive reactance (Xc = 1/2pieFC), inductive reactance (Xl = 2pieFL), and impedance (Z = square root of resistance squared plus Xl squared) are all directly or indirectly proportional to frequency, I imagine all sorts of shit is going to break that has nothing to do with time.
#4. To: farmfriend (#0)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#5. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#2)
Considering that capacitive reactance (Xc = 1/2pieFC), inductive reactance (Xl = 2pieFL), and impedance (Z = square root of resistance squared plus Xl squared) are all directly or indirectly proportional to frequency, I imagine all sorts of shit is going to break that has nothing to do with time.
#6. To: echo5sierra, Lod (#5)
#7. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#6)
#8. To: Lod, 4um (#1)
This is insanity.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936 2011)
#9. To: farmfriend (#0)
#10. To: farmfriend (#0)
#11. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, echo5sierra, Lod (#6)
#12. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#2)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#13. To: echo5sierra (#5)
#14. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#11)
#15. To: farmfriend (#0)
#16. To: Lod (#14)
#17. To: Eric Stratton (#15)
Any indication as to what day this will be?
#18. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, farmfriend, Lod (#6)
#19. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#18)
#20. To: Eric Stratton (#19)
#21. To: Lod, Original_Intent, 4, Eric Stratton (#14)
#22. To: farmfriend (#0)
#23. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#21)
#24. To: IRTorqued (#12)
how many products are made these days with universal motors that run on DC to 100+ hertz? of course my sewing machines from the fifties and early sixties have such motors and unaffected by strays in the power frequency. the problem lies with those products using induction motors which is just about everything these days due to the low cost of manufacturing them. keeping time is the least of my worries, lets face it time is relative.
#25. To: TooConservative (#24)
(Edited)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#26. To: IRTorqued (#25)
A yearlong experiment with the electric grid may make plug-in clocks and devices like coffeemakers with programmable timers run up to 20 minutes fast.
How much variation in the rate is going to be allowed then?
The North American Electric Reliability Corp. runs the nation's interlocking web of transmission lines and power plants. A June 14 company presentation spelled out the potential effects of the change: East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by 8 minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speed-up of 2 minutes.
So at most, this is deviation of 0.004% (4 thousandths) maximum at any given time from the existing regulated standard. In all but the Eastern seaboard, it will be half of that or less, more like 2 one-thousandths variation at any given time. In Texas, it would be 0.0004% (4 ten-thousands) variation, really tiny.
365.25 days * 24 hours * 60 minutes = 525,960 hours in a year
20 minutes annual deviation / 525,960 hours = 0.00003802570%
#27. To: TooConservative (#26)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#28. To: IRTorqued (#27)
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