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Title: Mother-in-law's manners e-mail: Right or wrong?
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URL Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13973331
Published: Jul 1, 2011
Author: Katie Fraser
Post Date: 2011-07-01 05:26:41 by Tatarewicz
Keywords: None
Views: 420
Comments: 42
Comments (643) For any bride (or groom) to-be, one of the most nerve-wracking aspects of entering married life is winning over the future in-laws. So when one young woman, Heidi Withers, returned from visiting hers in Devon, it's unlikely she welcomed the detailed critique of her manners that dropped into her inbox from her fiance's stepmother, Carolyn Bourne. Having forwarded the e-mail that described her behaviour as "staggering in its uncouthness and lack of grace" to her friends, it then went viral, attracting attention from around the world. Here are some examples from the missive, followed by some expert opinions. "When a guest in another's house, you do not lie in bed until late morning in households that rise early - you fall in line with house norms." Staying at someone else's home can be a minefield of dilemmas for many a guest but choosing what time to appear at the breakfast table is one that can be easily cleared up the night before, says etiquette expert Liz Brewer. "Even when staying at the grandest houses, the hostess will say breakfast is at X o'clock and we'd like you to join us then. If you are very tired, it is acceptable to maybe ask 'would you mind if I have a lie in?'. But that has to be established beforehand. "When staying with the in-laws you'd have thought you would have wanted to make a good impression." "No-one gets married in a castle unless they own it. It is brash, celebrity-style behaviour." Madonna, Guy Ritchie and their son Rocco Madonna and Guy Ritchie tied the knot at Skibo Castle in the Scottish Highlands For many couples - and brides in particular - their big day is something they have spent years imagining and planning. With this in mind, it's no surprise that the choice of venue tends to be somewhere special, like a castle. Andrea Ventress of Wedding magazine says just because you don't happen to live in one doesn't mean you have to rule it out, particularly as more and more stately homes and castles have got wedding licences in the last decade. "It's a way that a lot of these big places stay open. "Yes, someone like Madonna got married in a castle but a lot of very normal, real-life couples can get married in these settings. There are lots of castles around the UK where you could absolutely afford to get married. Everyone has the right to a fairytale wedding. " "You do not take additional helpings without being invited to by your host." The suggestion that Miss Withers helped herself to seconds before being offered more by her hostess is seen as a definite no-no. Unless, that is, you are considerate enough to look out for your fellow diners first, says etiquette expert William Hanson. "If there are communal dishes, and wine, on the table the polite thing to do is turn to the person next to you, offer them some more sprouts, wine or whatever it is and then help yourself." "I understand your parents are unable to contribute very much towards the cost of your wedding. (There is nothing wrong with that except that convention is such that one might presume they would have saved for their daughters' marriages.) If this is the case, it would be most ladylike and gracious to lower your sights and have a modest wedding." By discussing money Mrs Bourne is mentioning the very British unmentionable. And on the subject of a bride's parents paying for a wedding, it is outdated, says Miranda Eason, editor of You & Your Wedding and Cosmopolitan Bride. "Our research [21st Century bride online survey 2010] shows that only around 10% of couples rely on their parents for funds. Forty-two per cent of weddings are an all-in-it-together venture with everyone contributing - the couple and both sets of parents. But nearly half (47%) of couples now finance the entire celebration themselves, largely because they are older than when their parents married - the average age for a bride is 29 - and are more financially independent. "They want to plan the wedding they want without feeling obliged to give into pressure from the parents paying the bills." "When you are a guest in another's house, you do not declare what you will and will not eat - unless you are positively allergic to something." In a world full of food awareness and choice, people are increasingly picky about what they eat. But when sitting at someone else's table in their home, Jill Harbord, the headmistress in ITV's Ladette to Lady, says suggesting a dislike for something that has been prepared for you is unacceptable. "You certainly don't go into the house and say I hate X. That would be very bad manners. If you are allergic to something, you don't say it as you arrive. You should give prior warning before your visit. It's about having respect for your hostess." "I suggest you take some guidance from experts with utmost haste. There are plenty of finishing schools around." Lucie Clayton teaches women about posture Is there still a need for finishing schools? For William Hanson, this was the comment that "tipped it completely over the mark". Mrs Bourne's decision to comment on her future stepdaughter-in-law-to-be's manners is one that could call into question her own manners. "Whilst she's technically correct on all the points she made she was rude herself handling it in the way she did. She could maybe have gone for the softly, softly approach, or just picked up on a couple of things that particularly bugged her." Her decision to put her thoughts down in an e-mail could itself be described as a social faux pas. In person, it would have been easier to use tone to lighten the conversation. "What she needed to do was address this one-to-one, in a friendly tone, not antagonising or dictating to her. She should have given an explanation why. "Where there is a rule there is always a plausible reason and the reason is normally common sense."
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#3. To: Lysander_Spooner (#1)
what an ass.
"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." -Padme, Star Wars III, Sith
A 250-pound one in lime-green stretch pants. Good thing I know pet CPR, otherwise my pug would have died when he glanced over and saw what I saw. He's a lot more delicate than me.
"THRUSH believes in the two-party system: the masters and the slaves." -- Napoleon Solo, "The Man From U.N.C.L.E."
Back in '78, my future fil offered us 10K if we'd just go somewhere and get it done. Mrs.L thought otherwise...
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
I gotta agree with the Spooner dude. The younger generations of females are pretty much pigs. Don't know how to cook or clean, want to have children, (which they see as some kind of right of passage/you're not a real woman until you have a baby) but they lack what it takes to be there for them and raise them properly. I see it and deal with it every day in my line of work.
Feminism has laid waste to graciousness and good manners for too many women who buy into the clipped-hair/man-pants/dyke-emulating look. They're an abomination before God.
__________________________________________________________ what exactly is your definition of younger generation and why are you assigning such gender roles to start with? I'm the bread winner in my family, not by choice, so shouldn't my husband be doing the domestic stuff as his contribution to the house? And why kind of lesson would I be teaching my boys if I taught them to expect the woman to do all the cooking and cleaning. This is not the 50s.
"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." -Padme, Star Wars III, Sith
I agree with you Obnoxicated. I'm really disgusted with most of today's women. Were I to have children ( whether boy or girl) I would put them both into finishing school for the purpose to raise them the proper way of social graces and manners. If women want to be treated with honor and respect they need to start acting like ladies instead of tramps. And the same goes for the men. Perhaps, my way of thinking is out-dated but I'm not that old.
Great posted article.
May I commend to the reading list of all "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior" by Judith Martin? It is witty and informative. Amy Vanderbilt's "Etiquette" is good too but is a bit dated now. I still like her dictum though: "Good manners is saying and doing the nicest thing in the kindest way." A good example would be Jackie Kennedy's response to a guest. The guest had accidentally dropped and broken a piece of White House Heirloom Crystal. When the guest attempted to apologize her response was that "...it is so fragile..." and then she proceeded to intentionally break her Champagne glass - "see".
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
Why would Jackie Kennedy care what got broken? It isn't like she paid for any of it, right? Easy enough to be gracious when someone else is footing all the bills.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
Jackie had a great sense of historicity. I sincerely doubt that it was not done without qualms. The point though was that rather than embarrass a guest she chose a more elegant response. Jackie did a lot for this country as First Lady - Lyndon Johnson is often wrongly credited with pushing for the moon program when more recent accounts from people who were actually there is that it was Jackie who pushed it. As well it was at her behest that we had a short revival of culture with Leonard Bernstein's introduction of the "Young People's Concerts" which was picked up across the country and reinvigorated an appreciation of classical art and music. I know I benefitted - my introduction to Classical Music was via one of those concerts in the fourth, and fifth grades. I even remember that the "Surprise Symphony" by Franz Friedrich Haydn was one of the pieces that brought about a life long love affair with classical music.
As the hostess and future mother in law she should really lead by example, the nasty and prickly letter tell me that she didn't. She could have handled this in a more compassionate way..As it is, she burned her bridge.
Be all that as it may, my point stands. It is easy to be gracious when someone is busting up $#it that someone else paid for. As if it wouldn't have been enough just to have said, "Don't worry about it, no real harm done" she had to get in on it too. I am not and never have been a big fan of hers but then as Shirley Q. says, "to each they own." It seems to me that if people knew--which I can't imagine you don't know-- about the agreement she made with Onassis to marry him, including how many times a month or whatever she would sleep with him, they would not hold her in such high regard. For those who believe she was such a wonderful person who loved the US that is just not the case. She told Pierre Salinger after the funeral of Bobby Kennedy (who had been her lover for some time after JFK was killed), 'I hate this country,' she told former White House Press secretary Pierre Salinger after the funeral. 'I despise America and I don't want my children to live here any more. If they're killing Kennedys, my kids are number one targets. I want to get out.' And of course most people know that she was a high maintenance broad and married Onassis because he was one of the few people on earth who could afford such a high priced hooker. In 1966, Robert David Lion Gardiner, the eccentric New York heir, invited Jackie to his private islet off the coast of Long Island. After dinner, attended by Gardiner's wife, the former British model Eunice Bailey Oakes, coffee was being served. Jackie took out her cigarettes and picked up Eunice's gold cigarette lighter that was on the table. After using it, Jackie slipped it into her bag. Gardiner saw the entire incident but was uncertain what to do. Several uncomfortable minutes later, he reached into his cigar humidor, removed a cigar and asked: 'Have any of you seen my wife's gold cigarette lighter? Did you, Mrs Kennedy? I believe you were the last one to use it.' Jackie shrugged. 'I have no idea where it went,' she said. The lighter was never returned to its owner. Gardiner retaliated by spreading stories accusing Jackie of kleptomania. The gossip soon reached the ears of Aristotle Onassis, who sent Gardiner a cheque for $5,000, along with a note threatening legal action for slander. After Jacqueline Kennedy's death in 1994, the lighter was auctioned off at Sotheby's in New York - as part of her multi-million-dollar estate. www.dailymail.co.uk/femai...n-world-rich-suit-Jackie- Kennedy-affair- Bobby.html
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
She could have handled this in a more compassionate way..As it is, she burned her bridge. I agree. Criticisms about manners should be discreet and spoken in calm tones.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
I see that the Brits have no problem airing the Kennedy's dirty laundry. Good for them, I'm sick of The Sacred Kennedy's and the American MSM's "Camelot" bullshit.
__________________________________________________________ I was sick of it a long time ago.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
There are few people without faults. It is a point I would not argue. Still, it seems obvious that her bitterness was no doubt a result of the assassination and well founded fears for the welfare of her children. As well she was a serious hoity toity snob who would never associate with the likes of us proletarians. Nevertheless, her attempts to raise the level of culture is still something I find laudable as well as her behind the scenes push on the space program. She was a product of her upbringing as a privileged child of a wealthy family and had all the prejudices of that class. However, compared to the First Wookie I'll take Jackie every time. She may not have been a saint but at least she had some class.
She could have handled this in a more compassionate way..As it is, she burned her bridge. Yes, makes me think of Mrs. Bucket, only not quite as classy.
Jackie never said a word. Nor did she change out her blood-stained outfit while one of the conspirators was sworn in as the next POTUS. Thank God that she didn't live to see her only son assassinated also.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
Agreed. I think we can attribute John John's death to Hitlery. Oh, she would never dirty her hands by pulling the trigger, but he was going to run for the Senate nomination and that would have put Hitlery a distant distant second. At that time Hitlery was still being groomed for bigger and better and someone wanted her in that seat.
2. However, compared to the First Wookie I'll take Jackie every time. She may not have been a saint but at least she had some class. 1. Nor would I. I don't know anyone but the Lord who is perfect. 2. Sounds like you are damning her with faint praise to me.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
Yes and no. All of our great public figures have had at least a little clay on their feet. I don't expect perfection and as a result am rarely disappointed. ;-)
I live my life by the old saying that if I don't expect much I will never be disappointed.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
Let's see...Jackie...Wookie..Jackie...Wookie...
"I am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked by all the people around them. I don’t care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do. The important question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it." - William S Burroughs
It isn't just women, ff. Younger males are just as culpable for societies ills. I think it goes back to overall bad parenting. People just don't seem to care if their kids are ill mannered slobs.
"Historicity"? lol! Is that even a word?
Perhaps but manners, like all social norms, change over time. They are closely tied to fashion, they just don't move as quickly. They also change based on culture. And, as has been pointed out on this thread, being overly picky about someone else's "bad" manners, is itself bad manners.
"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." -Padme, Star Wars III, Sith
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." ~ Ben Franklin "For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry
Or maybe she will pull a Goober on her and pass her all the taters! LOL!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." ~ Ben Franklin "For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry
And if she tosses them like she really means business (like she was throwing baseballs) it would give her mil an idea of how much she really loves her.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. Albert Einstein
So, when my 12 year old daughters ruptures my eardrums with one of her Pepsi induced belches, it's ok if I make her excuse herself. ;)
LOL absolutely not. You will permanently damage her self esteem.
"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." -Padme, Star Wars III, Sith
Well you can find those. I disagree with the most" adjective. Most of the women I encounter are hard working, bill paying and child raising people.
what an ass. "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." -Padme, Star Wars III, Sith farmfriend posted on 2011-07-01 12:58:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Yes Indeed.
Yes.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
So...that's your argument...lol. You validate my opinion.
Dude, you must be hangn out with alot of old chicks. The young ones, under 30, are mostly POS. My sons are 22, to them most are just referred to as "sluts", and deservedly so.
Most western wimmin should be avoided, they are for the most part garish, selfish bridezillas in waiting, and yes overweight too.
#4. To: farmfriend (#3)
what an ass.
#5. To: Tatarewicz (#0)
#6. To: farmfriend, Lysander Spooner (#3)
#7. To: Tatarewicz (#0)
(Edited)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#8. To: Obnoxicated (#6)
#9. To: Obnoxicated (#6)
#10. To: Tatarewicz (#0)
#11. To: purplerose, Obnoxicated, farmfriend (#9)
(Edited)
#12. To: purplerose, MILs, 4 (#10)
#13. To: Original_Intent (#11)
A good example would be Jackie Kennedy's response to a guest. The guest had accidentally dropped and broken a piece of White House Heirloom Crystal. When the guest attempted to apologize her response was that "...it is so fragile..." and then she proceeded to intentionally break her Champagne glass - "see".
OsamaBinGoldstein
#14. To: James Deffenbach (#13)
#15. To: Original_Intent, Lod, farmfriend, James Deffenbach (#14)
#16. To: Original_Intent (#14)
(Edited)
OsamaBinGoldstein
#17. To: Lady X (#15)
As the hostess and future mother in law she should really lead by example, the nasty and prickly letter tell me that she didn't.
OsamaBinGoldstein
#18. To: James Deffenbach (#16)
The riddle of a $5,000 lighter
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#19. To: X-15 (#18)
I see that the Brits have no problem airing the Kennedy's dirty laundry. Good for them, I'm sick of The Sacred Kennedy's and the American MSM's "Camelot" bullshit.
OsamaBinGoldstein
#20. To: James Deffenbach (#16)
(Edited)
#21. To: Lady X (#15)
As the hostess and future mother in law she should really lead by example, the nasty and prickly letter tell me that she didn't.
#22. To: Original_Intent (#21)
#23. To: Lod (#22)
(Edited)
Thank God that she didn't live to see her only son assassinated also.
#24. To: Original_Intent (#20)
1. There are few people without faults. It is a point I would not argue.
OsamaBinGoldstein
#25. To: James Deffenbach (#24)
2. Sounds like you are damning her with faint praise to me.
#26. To: Original_Intent (#25)
Yes and no. All of our great public figures have had at least a little clay on their feet. I don't expect perfection and as a result am rarely disappointed. ;-)
OsamaBinGoldstein
#27. To: Original_Intent (#20)
I'll take Jackie every time. She may not have been a saint but at least she had some class.
#28. To: farmfriend (#8)
#29. To: Original_Intent (#14)
#30. To: Obnoxicated (#28)
It isn't just women, ff. Younger males are just as culpable for societies ills. I think it goes back to overall bad parenting. People just don't seem to care if their kids are ill mannered slobs.
#31. To: Tatarewicz (#0)
#32. To: Eric Stratton (#31)
Perhaps the Bride will have an e-mail for her beast-in-law following the wedding.
OsamaBinGoldstein
#33. To: James Deffenbach (#32)
#34. To: Eric Stratton (#33)
OsamaBinGoldstein
#35. To: farmfriend (#30)
#36. To: Obnoxicated (#35)
So, when my 12 year old daughters ruptures my eardrums with one of her Pepsi induced belches, it's ok if I make her excuse herself. ;)
#37. To: Lysander_Spooner (#1)
Most western wimmin should be avoided, they are for the most part garish, selfish bridezillas in waiting, and yes overweight too. Most have few social graces and fewer employable skills, with the highest of expectations that they will live like a princess.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#38. To: farmfriend (#3)
Most western wimmin should be avoided, they are for the most part garish, selfish bridezillas in waiting, and yes overweight too.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#39. To: Obnoxicated (#29)
"Historicity"? lol! Is that even a word?
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#40. To: tom007, 4 (#39)
Advice for young brides - enjoy -
#41. To: farmfriend (#3)
what an ass.
#42. To: tom007 (#37)
Most of the women I encounter are hard working, bill paying and child raising people.
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