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Title: SCIENCE CONFIRMS "SOUL'S" SURVIVAL
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/snyder.html
Published: Aug 9, 2011
Author: by J.J. Snyder
Post Date: 2011-08-09 02:03:01 by Tatarewicz
Keywords: None
Views: 222
Comments: 18

A group of British scientists, including two astrophysicists, a thermodynamicist, and other professional researchers, are conducting experiments and solving complex equations that they believe furnish conclusive and irrefutable proof of human survival of bodily death.

Michael Roll, a rationalist and freethinker who heads The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom, is unofficial spokesman for the group. He has recently revealed information that could drastically alter humankind's entire belief system regarding continuation of consciousness beyond the grave. Roll, of Bristol, England, a former businessman, is a long-time explorer of paranormal phenomena. He and his colleagues' series of discoveries, involving mathematical equations and physical experiments, when taken together, furnish empirical evidence that makes an extremely strong case for continuing after-death survival of the human psyche.

The group has come to regard that continuation as the functioning of a natural, universal law, the study of which is strictly a branch of chemistry, physics, and mathematics, rather than an article of religious faith.

This scientific approach to a subject which heretofore has been discussed mainly as a function of theology is stirring lively debate, not only in Britain, but worldwide. The assertion that immortality is conferred on humankind through natural law alone, rather than by an all-powerful, monotheistic God, is awakening interest and triggering penetrating questions from the general public, including churchgoers, as they become more fully informed about prospects for continuing existence beyond the transition known as "death."

The researchers' premise is that certain recent mathematical discoveries, combined with results of in-depth exploration of physics and quantum mechanics, now furnish verification for many previous well-documented scientific experiments dealing with what has been previously known as "psychic phenomena." These experiments were, and are being, conducted by various researchers from the late nineteenth century down to the present day, and all have a common thread. Each features repeated appearances by, and communication with, entities from the next level of existence who have experienced the event known as death, and yet maintain consciousness, remain articulate, and sometimes become visible on this physical level. At times these visitors from etheric realms can be touched, felt, and even held tightly by incarnate humans. Fully authenticated and documented visits to living family members, friends, and researchers have long proven the reality of these manifestations, but their cause and origin has remained inexplicable in the context of heretofore known laws of physics. However, many of the questions relating to these phenomena have been answered by the British researchers, and ongoing exploration continues.

Discarnate entities sometimes appear through materialization mediums - those specially endowed individuals who are able to furnish a psychic link between the two planes. At other times, usually when influenced by extremely strong emotions on either, or both, the etheric or physical level, materializations occur spontaneously. Other mediums, while not always able to effect materializations, are still able to relay communications between the two levels of existence.

Much of the evidence provided by certain mediums has been subjected to close, even hostile, scientific scrutiny, and found to be true and valid. Recently, there have been many reports of discarnate communication occurring by electronic means - telephone calls, tape recordings, fax messages, and even long discourses on computer screens. Etheric entities identify themselves, answer questions put to them by experimenters, and furnish information on conditions in the dimensions where they now exist. Extensive research into electronic communication with afterworld beings is being conducted on both sides of the Atlantic. In the USA, the American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena and the Continuing Life Research organizations are in the forefront of these investigations.

Simply put, the British investigative group's contention is that these appearances of and contacts with "deceased" persons are manifestations of natural physical laws, the validity of which has been proven by recent and startling discoveries in mathematics and quantum physics. These are fields of study directly related to the structure and behavior of electrons, protons, neutrons, and other sub-atomic particles. Roll asserts that these new discoveries now fully vindicate the findings of early investigators of psychic phenomena such as Sir William Crookes, Sir Oliver Lodge, John Logie Baird, Arthur Findlay, Dr. Glen Hamilton, and many other prestigious scientific truth-seekers. After years of research, each of these experimenters declared unequivocally that life continues, endures, and advances on the next levels of existence.

Baird, a television pioneer, and inventor of the infrared camera, contacted the "deceased" Thomas A. Edison through a medium, and a discussion of the infrared camera followed. Later, Baird made the following statement: "I have witnessed some very startling phenomena under circumstances which make trickery out of the question...I am convinced that discoveries of far-reaching importance remain waiting along these shadowy and discredited paths."

Fittingly, efforts in Britain are now underway to embark on a project to employ an infrared camera that will scientifically measure and record phenomena produced during experiments, including the videotaping of recently deceased persons. Many early investigators were given a very rough time by fellow scientists and the media. This holds especially true for Crookes. In 1874, he published the results of his four years of experiments dealing with a wide variety of unexplained phenomena. The report described many well-documented appearances, in the presence of Florence Cook, a materialization medium, of a spirit entity by the name of Katie King. Immediately upon publication of these findings, he became the target of infuriated detractors. After Crookes' death in 1919, his enemies even went so far as to accuse him of being sexually obsessed with Cook, and collaborating with her in faking evidence of psychic phenomena. These cowardly attacks were directed at one of the most distinguished scientists of the nineteenth century, a Fellow of the Royal Society, later it's President, and the discoverer of the chemical element Thallium.

Although Crookes had become convinced of the reality of etheric communications long before beginning work with the medium (he began his research by investigating the numerous psychic phenomena associated with D. D. Hume), these unfounded and unproven allegations, many of them outright lies, have persisted into our own time. They have muddied the waters of paranormal investigation, and discouraged other scientists from following in Crookes' footsteps.

This is in spite of the reams of documentation of the many paranormal occurrences, including numerous appearances of the aforementioned discarnate entity, which occurred throughout Crookes' investigation. Conclusive photographs are part of the record, and the authenticity of the phenomena has been verified by a number of independent witnesses. Some of these witnesses were themselves brilliant and esteemed scientists of the era, one of note being Cromwell F. Varley, an early researcher into ionization phenomena, and supervisor of the initial laying of the Atlantic Cable.

Another investigator, Dr. Glen Hamilton, MD, of Winnipeg, Canada, a member of the Canadian Parliament and long-time psychic researcher, carried out later experiments which closely paralleled Crookes', and achieved comparable results. His research sessions were also marked by manifestations of, and communication with discarnate entities. All of these occurred under closely-controlled, replicable, conditions, including a battery of fifteen flash cameras which photographed the apparitions from all angles simultaneously. Scientific observers who were present at these experiments included four other doctors, two lawyers, and two engineers. All of these witnesses stated unequivocally that "time after time, we saw dead persons materialize." In well over a century, there has never been an explanation put forth for these hundreds of scientifically validated manifestations and communications being anything other than what the experimenters claimed them to be, that is, paranormal, or "psychic" phenomena.

Roll balks at the term "psychic," however, preferring instead to talk of "sub-atomic" phenomena. This he perceives as beginning with the separation of the human mind from its bodily shell, a natural and universal function that takes place at the end of physical life.

The mind, retaining all of the memories, emotions, and intellect that it possessed on the material plane, then moves on to its next level of existence. This event occurs without regard for an individual's religious belief and/or good behavior, or lack of the same, during his or her physical existence.

The term "sub-atomic" refers to the many particles that compose the atom. There are over two hundred of these so far discovered, in addition to the generally well known electrons, protons, and neutrons. An electron is part of a family known as leptons. Its companion protons and neutrons are constructed of a similar sub-atomic group known as quarks. It has been postulated by a number of physicists that another sub-atomic particle, the neutrino, may account for ninety percent of the previously "missing" matter in the universe.

All of these particles possess properties and exhibit behavior which remains inexplicable in the context of conventional physics, and there are strong indications that they may furnish an explanation for the numerous phenomena which are characteristic of the so-called "etheric body." According to the group's premise, both the human body and its etheric personality, the essence of human consciousness that endures after the physical ceases to operate, are composed of various sub-atomic particles. When the etheric portion detaches from the physical, in the event known as "death," it remains energized by these same particles, which, in their new state, are now able to impart to it powers and abilities unknown, and even unimaginable, in our material world. Under certain conditions, discarnate entities manifesting on the material plane can appear and disappear at will, speak, respond, and even be grasped and held by those present at controlled experiments.

In Roll's view, there is nothing "supernatural" or "paranormal" about these appearances, which he sees as merely proving the ongoing existence of human consciousness and personality beyond the end of physical life. He blames certain religious denominations and national political leaders, pandering to their own interests by keeping the masses in ignorance, for this information on sub-atomic phenomena as it impacts upon survival not being more widely circulated and available to the general public. To aid Roll's efforts in disseminating this evidence, an impressive array of scientists, physicists, and university professors have lent him support and made public their own research findings, all of which bear out the validity of his assertions.

The late Professor Abdus Salam was a Nobel Laureate and Director of the International Centre for Theoretical Physics, who was awarded an honorary knighthood. After reviewing the results of investigations by the savants, he gave Roll numerous monetary contributions from his own pocket, as well as a sizable grant from the Foundation, to help him spread the word of these exciting discoveries that verify the truth of ongoing life beyond the physical level.

R. D. Pearson, BSc, another of Roll's scientific collabarators, is a former university lecturer and engineer whose specialty is thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. He has written a book, "Intelligence Behind The Universe," along with a companion booklet, "Colossus," and an accompanying appendix of mathematical proof. These purport to explain the cosmic force that drives the phenomenom of continuing life, and mathematically back up the experiments of Crookes and Hamilton. Put quite simply, Pearson sees post-mortem survival of the human psyche as one of many functions of a multi-dimensional, multi-universal, sub-atomic grid matrix, on which all forms of life exist, and which sustains the etheric, as well as the physical consciousness of all living organisms. In this model, physical materializations of so-called "dead" persons, and even deceased animals, are but the temporary merging of two different frequencies, or wave-lengths, from two discrete levels of the grid, somewhat similar to when more than one radio broadcast is picked up on the same dial setting.

Pearson furnishes full mathematical proof for his postulations, which may one day be looked upon as the key that finally unlocked the door to universal awareness of the reality of discarnate existence. One of the roadblocks to scientific acceptance of this "grid theory" (which is considerably more complex than the above simplified outline) has been the existence of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, parts of which seemed to negate Pearson's hypothesis. However, Doctor Louis Essen, a Fellow of the Royal Society, and inventor of the atomic clock, informed Pearson that he has found significant errors in Einstein's calculations.

This recent discovery by Doctor Essen is in accord with a statement made by Einstein himself on his seventieth birthday: "There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I am not sure if I was on the right track after all." Over the past several years, other physicists and cosmologists worldwide have also come to the general agreement that "Einstein's laws contain some flaws." As a result of this consensus, they are examining certain discrepancies that have been found in Einstein's work, and are formulating other premises to account for specific occurrences in quantum physics that cannot be explained by his theories.

Pearson is confident that his "grid theory" corrects some of the discrepant data in Einstein's works, and that it will withstand close examination and criticism by fellow physicists and cosmologists. In his book, he calls for seven experimental checks to be made which he is certain will return positive results and affirm his conclusions. Pearson has made several trips to Russia to present his theories. After extensive investigation and review, they were fully accepted by the physicists and scientists of that country, and Russian physics textbooks are in the process of being revised to reflect his new and exciting discoveries in sub-atomic physics. One of the strongest points in their favor is the fact that they have been shown not to conflict with the proven realities of quantum mechanics, as do many of Einstein's theories.

Sam Nicholls, MSc, an astrophysics graduate of Leeds University, and a fellow researcher into sub-atomic phenomena, concurs with Pearson's findings. He has further postulated that so-called "deceased" entities, although composed of slightly different atomic components, exist in, and share the same space with, incarnate persons. He states:

"Like the physical universe, their world would likewise be composed of sub-atomic particles, but these may be in much closer vibrational harmony with the all-pervading "grid" than their physical counterparts."

In one context of observation, this grid itself could be seen as the Creator-Sustainer of All Things for a number of parallel but separate universes. This premise does not, however, negate the possibility of an even higher, ultimate, Intelligence behind the grid.

Another British astrophysicist and sub-atomic researcher, Michael Scott, BSc, a graduate of Edinburgh University, cites Niels Bohr's "Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics" as seeming to actually require the existence of consciousness as a non-material extension to space-time. Scott makes the point that sub-atomic physics, as explored by him and other researchers worldwide, no longer views the building blocks of the universe as discrete particles of solid substance, but rather as vague, wavelike structures whose existence borders on the ethereal. Scott further states that:

"The advancement of quantum physics has produced a description of reality which allows the existence of parallel universes. Composed of real substance, they would not interact directly with matter from our universe."

Professor Fred Alan Wolfe, although not a member of the British group, seems to concur with their findings in his book "Mind and the New Physics". In it he states that "as fantastic as it may sound, the 'new physics' called quantum mechanics posits that there exists, side by side with this world, another world, a parallel universe, a duplicate copy that is somehow slightly different and yet the same. And not just two parallel worlds, but three, four, and even more...! In each of these universes, you, I, and all the others who live, have lived, will live, and will have ever lived, are alive."

These radical concepts of quantum physics and the ephemeral state of perceived reality as it impacts human existence beyond physical life have spurred attacks on the researchers from many quarters. These include certain members of the clergy, spiritualists, other scientists, and professional "skeptics." Roll, as spokesman for the group, has drawn the wrath of religionists and spiritualists by his denial that belief in a supreme being is a necessary condition for next-world survival. His assertion that religious faith, or lack of it, is irrelevant in the context of continuing afterlife has placed him in direct conflict with the established churches, especially certain Christian denominations, and some of his fiercest foes are to be found in this camp.

It seems particularly ironic that Christian sects are in the forefront of opposition to the sharing of these findings. The reported teachings of Jesus, whose doctrines are the foundation of their beliefs, are all based on the existence of another life beyond the present. Many thinking persons feel that these new discoveries in sub-atomic physics give credence to all those who, since the advent of human consciousness, have taught survival of death, and in addition, eliminate the necessity of belief through faith alone. This point is made by Pearson when he states,

"People need to be made aware that their religious faiths have a base strongly supportable by modern physics. There is no longer any reason to think of science and religion as basically incompatible."

Roll expected strong opposition from the churches, but sees it as paradoxical that certain British spiritualist organizations have also joined in denouncing his views. The very core of spiritualism has always been a belief in the reality of contact with departed entities, and many survivalists of the past, especially the great historian and researcher Arthur Findlay, have made important and lasting contributions to research dealing with these contacts. Roll's charges, which are backed by correspondence of record with several Spiritualist groups, are that their present day members have abandoned the rationalist philosophy of Findlay and other pioneers. They have instead tended to side with organized religion in asserting that belief in a monotheistic "God" is a vital part of the spiritualist creed. To refute the concept that faith in a supreme being is necessary for afterlife salvation from eternal punishment, Roll states unequivocally that life continues on in the next dimension without divine intervention or retribution, regardless of one's religious beliefs or lack thereof. In addition to the findings of his colleagues, he bases this statement on personal communications with discarnate entities with whom he has spoken, and even held and embraced, including a "deceased" member of his immediate family.

From information received through these contacts, he describes the afterworld as having many of the same conditions that are found on this physical plane. One significant difference seems to be that the environment experienced by each person is wholly dependent upon that individual's behavior while incarnate. Punishment for wrongdoing, if any, is meted out to oneself by oneself, after undergoing a review of the past physical life. There are infinite and varying levels of existence, and advancement to higher planes is within the reach of every inhabitant of those realms. Roll outlines his philosophy in a quote from his booklet "The Physicists' and Rationalists' Case for Survival After the Death of Our Physical Bodies:"

"Dying is as natural as being born; we all pass into the next world whether we like it or not. There is no special place reserved for Christians or members of any other sect. There are no social strata or racial barriers. We all graduate to the level we have earned by the development of our characters."

Conspicuously missing from this scenario is that favorite authority figure of religious fundamentalists, the "Big Daddy God," a stern judge who summarily sentences some souls to eternal fire as punishment for alleged "sins", while raising others to eternal glory as a reward for belief in "Him." Mention of this deity is found nowhere in the numerous accounts by discarnate entities of life in their world. The Creator of the Universe, whoever or whatever he/she or it may be, seems to be a much more loving and compassionate being than literal interpreters of the Bible can conceive of. Opposition from certain establishment scientists to this view of after-death survival as a natural function of sub-atomic processes has also been strong. In spite of Lord Kelvin's statement that "Science is bound by the everlasting law of honour to face fearlessly every problem which can fairly be presented to it," some scientists have refused to even look at Pearson's data, or review the hypotheses of the other researchers.

Adrian Berry, Science Correspondent of the "Daily Telegraph," has framed this attitude perfectly by stating in print that

"few subjects more infuriate scientists than claims of paranormal phenomena, because, if confirmed, the whole fabric of science would be threatened."

Although obviously not Berry's intention, these words make a crucial point for the embattled researchers.

Roll's response to Berry is that "nothing can threaten true science, which in essence is the unceasing search for knowledge, and that observed and verifiable facts call for an explanation of their cause, no matter how uncomfortable the eventual solution may be for it's discoverers." He equates such reluctance to explore new vistas with past suppression of uncomfortable ideas and discoveries, as when the brilliant researcher Giordano Bruno was murdered by the Catholic Church for daring to assert that "There are many suns, with many planets circling them. The priests and so-called "scientists" of Galileo's day refused to look through his telescope, because of fear that what they might observe would overturn their cherished and antiquated beliefs.

Even the ubiquitous James "The Amazing" Randi, erstwhile magician and member of the "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal," (although he has been forced to resign from this organization due to legal problems stemming from character defamation suits brought against him) has taken it upon himself to attack the premise of scientific verification of continuing post-mortem existence. His nose was figuratively bloodied during an encounter with Sam Nicholls, however, when the astrophysicist, as a member of the audience of a television show, stood up and publicly challenged Randi's assertions. The magician quickly ordered the cameras of Granada Television Studio switched off before they could record Nicholls' words.

Since there is no separation of church and state in Britain, religious opposition there has, until very recently, made it difficult for Roll to air his findings and those of his colleagues. As an example of this church-state integration, the law demands that an "act of Christian worship" be performed daily in every school throughout the land!

Also, British laws have not always favored Roll's attempts to disseminate his views in the media. One example of this mental harassment is an incident which would be unimaginable in the USA. Because of a clause in the Broadcasting Act, the host of a radio show on which Roll appeared and championed the existence of subatomic phenomena as a natural law, while denying it's divine origin, was threatened with being reported to the IBA, (the British counterpart of the Federal Communications Commission) if Roll ever again appeared on his show. The courageous broadcaster was not intimidated, and his publicizing of the threat resulted in increased demand by listeners for more information on the subject, which led to Roll ultimately being invited back on the air without fear of sanctions. These and other restrictions have worked as deterrents to the free dissemination of information on sub-atomic phenomena, but the situation is rapidly changing.

Lately, likely due to public pressure, Roll has been allowed to air his views more freely, and has been appearing on a series of radio broadcasts, where he was able to reveal the far-reaching discoveries of his colleagues with a minimum of restrictions. He also gives numerous lectures throughout the UK and in Europe, and recently formed the Campaign for Philosophical Freedom to further disseminate the truth about ongoing life in etheric realms. As word of these exciting and factual affirmations of heretofore only hoped-for afterlife existence spreads, the public is showing its strong interest in life after death by ever-increasing attendance at lectures and programs given by Roll and his associates. They are demanding more information, as well as the lowering of all remaining barriers to free and open discussion of the matter. In future years, it is likely that the present times will be looked back upon as the dawning of a new Renaissance in humankind's perception of both the physical and non-physical worlds alike.

A quote from Arthur Schopenhauer describes the current situation in the study of sub-atomic physics as it relates to ongoing life now being at the second stage, and nearing the third:

"Any unexplained phenomenon passes through three stages before the reality of it is accepted: During the first stage it is considered laughable. During the second stage, it is adamantly opposed. Finally, during the third stage, it is accepted as self-evident." - After Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)


Any after-life entities are most likely just conjured up in one's mind and may even be projected to others, onto film or into electronic devices.

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#1. To: Tatarewicz (#0)

His assertion that religious faith, or lack of it, is irrelevant in the context of continuing afterlife has placed him in direct conflict with the established churches, especially certain Christian denominations, and some of his fiercest foes are to be found in this camp.

I think it's premature to draw conclusions from the little evidence available as regards the planes where life continues after death especially when many of our suppositions related to physics (and God for that matter) are held captive within the framework of the human (physical) mind.

Our physical / material existence predetermines much of what we think and perceive. I don't think God has anything to worry about from us, after all, this universe can't be explained or measured yet and already we're aware that many others exist.

Is it possible that the mindset or belief system of the (dying) entity passing into other dimensions has a direct effect upon where that entity enters the alternative dimension or which plane it is attracted to ?

I applaud the research and find it amazing.

From my personal perspective, (and being a Bible student) looking at the super- natural design and the existence of such an amazing universe as this one we're most familiar with (let alone those we now speculate about) gives me every motivation to say little and observe more knowing full well whatever the (physical) make-up of the entity responsible for all things is, matters little, and if speculated upon by me would likely result in error as I don't think my mind is capable of comprehending the magnificence.

I am grateful for the opportunity to have experienced this universe and life in spite of those that unnecessarily make it difficult. And, I humbly thank God / the Creator or Creative Force for every scientifically unproven moment.

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period, unalterable through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery”.

Thomas Jefferson

noone222  posted on  2011-08-09   5:18:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Tatarewicz (#0)

If one reads the Book of Enoch it's hard not to see that he was very aware of a multi-dimensional Universe. Paul's writings speak of sevral levels of "heaven" -

My feeling is that in the end we will discover the Scriptures true and ourselves limited in really understanding them.

If we are able to have "all knowledge" at some point it will be a spiritual experience for me.

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period, unalterable through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery”.

Thomas Jefferson

noone222  posted on  2011-08-09   5:29:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: noone222 (#1)

Finite is what you are able to see with your physical eyes.

Infinity is what you are able to see with your soul.

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2011-08-09   7:57:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#3)

Finite is what you are able to see with your physical eyes.

Infinity is what you are able to see with your soul.

That could be the peyote influencing perception. It has led countless "Indians" to believe that despite the lack of proof their ancestors now reside in the happy hunting ground.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2011-08-09   8:26:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Tatarewicz (#0) (Edited)

These radical concepts of quantum physics and the ephemeral state of perceived reality as it impacts human existence beyond physical life have spurred attacks on the researchers from many quarters. These include certain members of the clergy, spiritualists, other scientists, and professional "skeptics." Roll, as spokesman for the group, has drawn the wrath of religionists and spiritualists by his denial that belief in a supreme being is a necessary condition for next-world survival. His assertion that religious faith, or lack of it, is irrelevant in the context of continuing afterlife has placed him in direct conflict with the established churches, especially certain Christian denominations, and some of his fiercest foes are to be found in this camp.

Holy war [Psalm 2] alert.

***** If you can make people believe the lie that you can do whatsoever thou will, and still have eternal life, there is no need for a Savior, Jesus Christ, and no need to follow His commandments, and no need for the rest of the Word of God, and no need for any god except god.gov.

First lie told by Satan was to Eve in the garden: "ye shall not surely die" [as God said they would: bible.cc/genesis/2-17.htm ]: bible.cc/genesis/3-4.htm

Genesis 3 >>
King James Version

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed [Christ Galatians 3:16/Christians Galatians 3:29/ http://kingjbible.com/galatians/3.htm ]; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

http://kingjbible.com/genesis/3.htm

==================

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. bible.cc/ezekiel/18-4.htm

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. bible.cc/romans/6-23.htm

Let's remember there is a holy war going on against Christ, Christians, and Christian America [ http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55421 ]. ["A holy war will now begin against America ( kingjbible.com/psalms/2.htm )...her churches will be used to teach the Jews' (Synagogue of Satan/Pharisee) religion ( bible.cc/matthew/13-33.htm / bible.cc/matthew/16-6.htm ).... http://www.sweetliberty.org/pers...e/jewishpersecution19.htm and note: '....The Protocols - No. 9 - has this to say about TERRORISM: "... we, the lawgivers, shall execute judgment and sentence, we shall slay and we shall spare, we, as head of all our troops, are mounted on the steed of the leader. We rule by force of will, because in our hands are the fragments of a once powerful party, now vanquished by us.... "And the weapons in our hands are limitless ambitions, burning greediness, merciless vengeance, hatreds and malice. "It is from us that the all-engulfing terror proceeds. "..." ]

================================

More food for thought.....

Robert Reich sets the stage for the battle against Christ, Christians, and Christian America.

Robert Reich Declares War on Evangelicals - The Masters Table

Robert Reich keeps calling for a war on evangelicals. Does he really mean it? Writing for the liberal magazine The American Prospect, former U.S. Secretary of Labor Robert Reich calls for a war against conservative religious believers. "The great conflict of the 21st century will not be between the West and terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic, not a belief," he writes.

"The true battle will be between modern civilization and anti-modernists; between those who believe in the primacy of the individual and those who believe that human beings owe their allegiance and identity to a higher authority; between those who give priority to life in this world and those who believe that human life is mere preparation for an existence beyond life; between those who believe in science, reason, and logic and those who believe that truth is revealed through Scripture and religious dogma. Terrorism will disrupt and destroy lives. But terrorism itself is not the greatest danger we face."

That's a remarkable comment, but even more remarkable is that Reich has been calling for’ or at least predicting’ this war for a long time. In the past, his use of war language has seemed rhetorical and metaphoric’ but was it?. "The outcome of the 2004 presidential election will depend partly on what happens between now and Election Day in Iraq and to the U.S. economy. But it will also turn on the religious wars’ fueled by evangelical Protestants, the ground troops of the Republican Party," he wrote in December.

"Democrats can hold their own in these wars’ if they respond vigorously to the coming assault. Democrats should call all this for what it is’ a clear and present danger to religious liberty in America. For more than three hundred years, the liberal tradition has sought to free people from the tyranny of religious doctrines that would otherwise be imposed on them. Today's evangelical right detests that tradition and seeks nothing short of a state-sponsored religion. But maintaining the separation of church and state is a necessary precondition of liberty. The religious wars aren't pretty. Religious wars never are. But Democrats should mount a firm and clear counter-assault. In the months leading up to Election Day, when Republicans are screaming about God and accusing the Democrats of siding with sexual deviants and baby killers, Democrats should remind Americans that however important religion is to our spiritual lives, there is no room for liberty in a theocracy."

The phrase clear and present danger isn't just a cute phrase. It's the phrase the Supreme Court used in the 1919 Schenck v. United States decision, allowing for the restriction of freedoms. In that decision, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, "Words which, ordinarily and in many places, would be within the freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment may become subject to prohibition when of such a nature and used in such circumstances a to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils which Congress has a right to prevent."

That's a hint, then, that Reich really believes that religious speech should be curtailed, that religious conservatives should be limited in opposing gay marriage, abortion, and the free exercise of religion in public schools and elsewhere (three issues that Reich specifically mentions). "Democrats should be clear that the issues of abortion and stem-cell research are about religious liberty," Reich says. If either of these is limited in any way, he suggests, America becomes a theocracy, regardless of whether it officially sponsors a specific religion. And that, the logic necessarily follows, demands a revolution.

Can Reich really mean what he says, asks Ramesh Ponnuru in National Review Online. "His most recent column is a denunciation ’ as a graver threat than terrorists ’ of people who believe that the world to come is more important than this world, or that all human beings owe their allegiance to God. Many millions of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other religious believers will reject Reich's witless rhetorical oppositions. One can believe in the political "primacy of the individual," the obligation of all people to answer to God, and the wrongness of any governmental attempt to make them answer to Him, all at the same time. But if our choice is between the primacy of individuals and the primacy of God ’ if, that is, we are to choose between individual human beings and God ’ then the vast majority of traditional religious believers would have to choose God. I certainly would. That would be the case for plenty of believers who are not sure what they think about abortion law, or want a higher minimum wage. All of us, for Reich, are the enemy."

Religious believers don't have to accept the battle cry, Ponnuru says. "Reich is not my enemy, although I certainly want most of what he stands for politically not to prevail. I don't think we have to have the battle he forecasts. I hope we don't. In fact, I pray we don't."

http://masterstable.john812.com/archives/reichwar.htm

Wednesday, July 27, 2011

On this day in history...aah, two days ago. ~ Liberals express fear of an imagined conspiracy...

Theocracy and Liberal Paranoia (from: Intelectual Conservative)
By Thomas E. Brewton, on July 25th, 2006

Liberals express fear of an imagined conspiracy to impose a brutal Christian theocracy upon the nation.

Liberals see themselves as entitled to regulate public discussion, because they have conflated their own religion of socialistic atheism with the supposed objectivity of the physical sciences. This combination of historicism and scientism leads them to the unquestioning certitude that they alone represent political and social truth.

Liberals are offended and feel threatened by all expressions of spiritual religious faith, which they perceive as evidence of a theocratic conspiracy and therefore sufficient grounds for banning Judeo-Christianity from all public discussion.

Opposition by Christians and religious Jews to abortion, fetal stem-cell research, same-sex marriage, and the hedonistic license of sexual promiscuity is equated by liberals with medieval ignorance and abolition of modern science. Robert Reich, President Clinton’s Labor Secretary, wrote:

The underlying battle will be between modern civilization and anti-modernist fanatics; . . . between those who believe that truth is revealed solely through scripture and religious dogma, and those who rely primarily on science, reason, and logic. Terrorism will disrupt and destroy lives. But terrorism is not the only danger we face.

Randall Balmer, a professor of religious history at Columbia, is sure that Christian conservatism “hankers for the kind of homogeneous theocracy that the Puritans tried to establish in seventeenth-century Massachusetts.” (see Ross Douthat’s essay).

Liberals contend that spiritual religion is fictional ignorance, Karl Marx’s opium of the masses imposed by the rulers to oppress the workers, which must have no role at all in political life. They fail to recognize the uniform lesson of history that societies survive only when they are united by common traditions and common precepts of morality. As Abraham Lincoln noted in 1858, a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Atheistic materialism, unfortunately, is not a unifying set of traditions and morality. It is merely the Darwinian doctrine enunciated by Thomas Huxley that there is no such thing as sin, that human life is merely survival of the fittest, with no meaning beyond self-indulgence. A world dedicated to nothing more than every-man-for-himself, in-your-face “doing your own thing” is inherently Thomas Hobbes’s war of all against all, in which life is nasty, brutish, and short.

Traditionalists merely wish to sustain the ethos that underlay the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution from the 18th century until the 1930s. They may attempt to persuade liberals of the error of their ways, but that is hardly the liberals’ imagined theocracy.

The liberal jihad, in contrast, leaves traditionalists with no choice but to surrender their faith or fight. The jihad seeks to impose atheistic religious doctrine upon all of public education and politics and to scourge all expressions of of Judeo-Christian religious belief that are not confined to the closed quarters of churches, synagogues, or private homes. As under the sharia of Islam, Christians and religious Jews are tolerated, so long as they keep their faith private and pay their taxes to support teaching atheistic materialism in the public schools.

The liberal jihad also has the full backing of the Federal and most state judiciaries and the benefit of unending propaganda from the self-designated mainstream media, including taxpayer-financed NPR and PBS.

Quietly keeping religious faith as a personal matter is not an option for traditionalists. With public education controlled by the doctrines of atheistic materialism, we already have three generations of citizens who have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the gospel of materialistic social-justice. It’s as if the body snatchers of the 1978 movie were replacing the souls of our children with alien, amoral sensuality.

The gray-beards of today’s liberalism were, in the 1960s, the anti-establishment rebels on college campuses who perceived the entirety of existing society -- from New Deal liberals to Republican conservatives -- in C. Wright Mills’s expression, as the power elite. Student anarchists of that era added a guerilla-tactic edge to the normal rebelliousness of youth. Even Tom Hayden’s Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) became too tame for the violent wing, who split off into the Weatherman underground of bank robbers, murderers, and bombers.

From the perspective of those rebels, who are today’s politicians, judges, and educators, even the bland society of the 1950s had to be obliterated, under the impetus of solidarity with the “black colony” in the United States and Vietnamese freedom-fighters in Southeast Asia. That militant spirit remains the subtext in today’s paranoid reaction against any questioning of the gospel of atheistic materialism.

Ross Douthat in his essay on the First Things website concludes:

What all these observers point out, and what the anti-theocrats ignore, is that the religious polarization of American politics runs in both directions. The Republican party has become more religious because the Democrats became self-consciously secular, and the turning point wasn’t the 1992 or the 2000 elections but the putsch of 1972, when secularist delegates -- to quote Phillips, quoting Layman -- suddenly “constituted the largest ‘religious’ bloc among Democratic delegates.” . . . it’s the second half of the story, the Republican reaction against the Democrats’ decision to become the first major party in American history to pander to a sizable bloc of aggressively secular voters . . . So the rise of the Religious Right, and the growing “religion gap” that Phillips describes but fails to understand, aren’t new things in American history but a reaction to a new thing . . . The hysteria over theocracy, in turn, represents an attempt to rewrite the history of the United States to suit these voters’ prejudices, by setting a year zero somewhere around 1970 and casting everything that’s happened since as a battle between progress and atavism, reason and fundamentalism, the Enlightenment and the medieval dark.

Posted by Storm'n Norm'n at 7/27/2011 05:37:00 PM Email This BlogThis! Share to Twitter Share to Facebook Share to Google Buzz

http://normanhooben.blogspot.com...toryaah-two-days-ago.html

[Rebels against Christ need to read Ezekiel 20]

=======================

Robert Reich's Civil Savior
Posted on September 9, 2010 by Eric Rauch

by Eric Rauch "...While Reich can’t conceive of a world where the government doesn’t own everything, I can’t conceive of a world where God doesn’t own everything; a world where He has specifically put His people—His church—in charge of benevolence and the welfare of others, financially and materially....."

"... When the state assumes social functions [like compensating its out-of-work citizens], its purpose is statist; the state is more concerned with its survival than with the survival of some people, or a class of people. The statist assumption of social functions remove responsibility from the people and promotes social isolation. The statist talks largely about loving mankind but acts in actual contempt of man. He accuses the orthodox Christian of holding to a low view of man, because the Christian believes man is a sinner, but Christians hold that man is a responsible sinner, not a conditioned reflex. It is the Christian who requires man to be responsible, whereas the statist makes the state responsible. [1]

When the federal or state government is viewed as the provider for a society, the federal or state government becomes the sovereign for that society. American Christians have helped to lead this charge in recent years by accepting the state’s usurped authority of a church function. The civil government has no business getting involved in benevolence for its citizens; this is first and foremost a function of the church.

We are not our own; we belong to God and all our possessions and wealth are a trust from Him [and not from the state]. This trust means [that we have] a responsibility to care for our own, our families. We have a responsibility under God to care for our parents, and for our children. The family is the world’s greatest welfare agency, and the most successful. What the federal government has done in welfare is small and trifling compared to what the families of America do daily, caring for their own, relieving family distress, providing medical care and education for one another, and so on. No civil government could begin to finance what the families underwrite daily. The family’s welfare program, for all its failures from time to time, is proportionately the world’s most successful operation by an incomparable margin. [2]

And what the family is on the small scale, the church is on a larger scale. The church—as a family of families—is also expected to care and provide for the displaced and misplaced in a civil society. When a man loses his job, the first place he should go, after meeting with his own family, is to his local church. The fact that most citizens in a community don’t attend a local church is a big part of the problem, and the breakdown of the nuclear family is a major cause of the breakdown of the local church. Reich confidently tells his readers that “tough love” isn’t what a civil society is based on, but he never tells us what it is based on—mainly because he doesn’t know. His omnipotent view of government can only take him so far. But as Christians we must remember that

We have an obligation under God to bring all things into captivity to Christ, and under His dominion, to establish Christian order. Too many Christians are engaged in fighting a local, small battle, if they are fighting at all. But we are in the midst of total war and must be engaged with total dedication and a total plan. Without this perspective, we waste much of our time, activity, and money… Are you going to wait for the state to lower its taxes? The state will never lower its taxes, nor will the people permit it to, as long as the necessary social functions are left in the hands of the state. We have higher taxes because most people demand them, and they demand the services the taxes provide. People only oppose higher taxes for themselves; they favor “soaking” the rich, soaking the unions, the railroads, the oil companies, the telephone company, anyone and everyone except themselves. The problem most legislators face is the unrelenting pressure for higher taxes from people who are demanding new services for themselves at public expense, and this always means taxes. We cannot wait for taxes to be lowered. We must begin now, not merely to tithe but to begin Christian reconstruction with our tithe, to re-establish the necessary social functions as Christian action. [3]

Just as the state cannot operate without taxes, neither can the church do its job when only a small portion of its people are paying God’s tax. Do you desire to see change in your community, town, state, and country? Then begin to pressure your church leaders to stop sending its people to the civil government for financial and material help. Robert Reich is the patron saint of the state system; he views civil government as the sovereign that makes it possible for you to venture out into the big bad world and get a job. If this doesn’t sit right with you—and as a Christian it most certainly should not—then may I ask what you are going to do about it?"

http://christianreader.com/2010/...t-reichs-civil-sovereign/

======================

Last but not least, we all know the Zionist Jews want to outlaw Christian theocracy [Revelation 5:9-10... bible.cc/revelation/5-10.htm ], in order to set up a JEWISH theocracy [ lol http://kingjbible.com/psalms/2.htm ] via their Satanic Noahide Law [ http://www.public-action.com/christmas.html ] to rule over us in their New World Order.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2011-08-09   9:59:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#5)

The Tale of Two Gardens

Dr. Dan Hayden

"...In glorious Eden, man chose himself over God and plunged the perfect creation into a chaotic pattern of sin and death. The Bible says that every evil and all sadness can be traced to the rebellion of the human heart against God in that garden.

As you think about where you have been, you would do well to listen to the tale of Eden. You, like the rest of us, are the product of that rebellion and subsequent eternal alienation from God. You are a son or daughter of Adam, part of a depraved race that lost its innocence in the first garden. The record of Eden is the story of paradise lost. Your paradise lost.

The Garden of Gethsemane

It was dark as twelve men crossed the brook in the early hours of the morning. Shimmers of light from the not too distant city cast ominous shadows through the garden of gnarled olive leaves. Gethsemane was what they called the olive press so prominently exposed in the heart of the grove. Eleven men lay down to rest. One lone figure knelt to pray. It was a night for evil and the drama of our hope was beginning to unfold in the colorless recesses of the garden - the Garden of Gethsemane.

There was nothing spectacular about this garden. Only the symbolism of olives crushed and oils flowing captures our attention. Yet it was there that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, resisted temptation to rebel against the will of God and submitted himself to be sacrificed for our sins. What Adam had refused to do in the first garden, Jesus agreed to do in this garden - He obeyed. Only hours later, Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.

There is a Choice

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the "last Adam." What the first Adam lost in the Garden of Eden, the last Adam regained in the Garden of Gethsemane. Now there is a choice. For all who are lost in Adam, there is the hope of being saved in Christ. It is simply a matter of repenting of your sin and placing your faith in Jesus Christ as the One who paid the penalty for your guilt.

After thinking about where you have been, perhaps you would like to think where you are going. Listen to the Garden of Gethsemane. You can go to God's heaven with your sins forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Paradise lost can be paradise regained - for you. That is the tale of two gardens. "

www.awordfromtheword.org/tale-of-two-gardens.htm

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2011-08-09   10:09:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#3)

Finite is what you are able to see with your physical eyes.

Were you always this stoooopid, narrow minded and philosophically ignorant?

Just because I don't believe in your groveling Heysus, doesn't mean I don't believe in a god.

"You'll just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. It's great to be an American" - Sail Away by Randy Newman

Flintlock  posted on  2011-08-09   10:13:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Flintlock (#7) (Edited)

groveling Heysus,

I have to wonder what Jewish novel you are reading.

===========================

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. bible.cc/revelation/19-15.htm

bible.cc/revelation/19-15.htm

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. bible.cc/luke/19-27.htm [ bible.cc/isaiah/65-15.htm ]

Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. bible.cc/matthew/22-7.htm / kingjbible.com/matthew/22.htm / bible.cc/revelation/22-13.htm

The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70

"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history." ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM....

http://www.preteristarchive.com/...rs/timeline_military.html

THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

An Absolute and Irresistible Proof of the Divine Origin of Christianity

INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

So far as they tend to verify OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS Relative to that event.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1805_holford_proof.html

The Destruction of Jerusalem

http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/index.html

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2011-08-09   10:37:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#8)

I have to wonder what Jewish novel you are reading.

The last Jewish written novel I read was Atlas Shrugged, but I don't think Ayn Rand was religious.....at all.

BTW You never did tell me which of the umpteen different sects of Christyinsanity you adhere to.

"You'll just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. It's great to be an American" - Sail Away by Randy Newman

Flintlock  posted on  2011-08-09   18:54:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: noone222 (#1)

you are an amazingly deep thinker. ;)

christine  posted on  2011-08-09   19:13:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Flintlock (#9)

BTW You never did tell me which of the umpteen different sects of Christyinsanity you adhere to.

I don't adhere to a sect....I adhere to the Word of God as gleaned through studying His Word....like this, I hope :}

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. bible.cc/2_timothy/2-15.htm

not "needing milk", but "strong food" bible.cc/hebrews/5-12.htm

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2011-08-09   19:17:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#11) (Edited)

I don't adhere to a sect...

Well, you're missing all the FUN!

Things like snake-juggling, speaking in tongues, buggy rides, Altar Boy bunging, jungle camps, "The Rapture©", holy underwear and my all time fav.....fund raising.

"You'll just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. It's great to be an American" - Sail Away by Randy Newman

Flintlock  posted on  2011-08-09   22:06:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: noone222 (#1)

Awesome post.

John 14:2


No Planes. Think about it. ... Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)... "To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle." ~ George Orwell... Israelis For 9/11 Truth

wudidiz  posted on  2011-08-09   22:35:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#11)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. bible.cc/2_timothy/2-15.htm

This might be the best advice ever !

Just wanted to say - Hi !

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period, unalterable through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery”.

Thomas Jefferson

noone222  posted on  2011-08-11   1:58:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: wudidiz (#13)

Thanks ! When I consider the perils of life for my (everyones) ancestors such as wars, pestilence, famines, earthquakes etc., and the many opportunities to "NOT EXIST" ... having the chance to exist defies higher odds than I care to estimate.

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period, unalterable through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery”.

Thomas Jefferson

noone222  posted on  2011-08-11   2:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: christine (#10)

Given enough time I'm sure I'll convince you otherwise !

Thanks !

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period, unalterable through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery”.

Thomas Jefferson

noone222  posted on  2011-08-11   2:08:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: noone222 (#15)

When I consider the perils of life for my (everyones) ancestors such as wars, pestilence, famines, earthquakes etc., and the many opportunities to "NOT EXIST" ... having the chance to exist defies higher odds than I care to estimate.

Yes. Then there's the idea that we will live and have lived forever. A mind- boggling concept.


No Planes. Think about it. ... Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)... "To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle." ~ George Orwell... Israelis For 9/11 Truth

wudidiz  posted on  2011-08-13   2:05:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: wudidiz (#17)

Yes. Then there's the idea that we will live and have lived forever. A mind- boggling concept.

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period, unalterable through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery”.

Thomas Jefferson

noone222  posted on  2011-08-13   6:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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