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Title: No Beatrice, the New Testament does not "flow from the Old"
Source:
We Hold These Truths
URL Source: http://www.whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=555
Published: Oct 21, 2005
Author: Charles E. Carlson
Post Date: 2005-10-21 10:07:59 by christine
Keywords: Beatrice,, Testament, "flow
Views: 128
Comments: 10
WE Hold These Truths Strait Gate Ministries PO Box 14491 Scottsdale AZ 85267 480 947 3329 Dear Beatrice: Thanks for the several letters you have sent over the last few weeks. I read to the bottom of one of them and found some things I may not have already explained in our many Pharisee Watch papers. A few of these are footnoted to help you and others who read this. YOU WRITE: "I cant concede in any way your theological views. Though your views are traditional in Christian Thinking, they divorce the Old Testament from the so-called New Testament. The New Testament flows very much from the Old Testament, and without a firm foundation in the true meaning of the Torah, the New Testament will just be a hand floating around without a body...not terribly useful, very misunderstood. You can make it say and do whatever you want without the Torah as its base...and it has been used that way, tragically. Respectfully, B.L.F. (Beatrice)" (address withheld, entire letter in endnotes) WHTT ANSWERS: You say you believe the New Testament flows from the old one and is the "hand" attached to the Old Testament "body", which you call the "Torah". I do not criticize you for saying this, because it is what I would expect from someone who does not believe Jesus is the Son of God. Nor do you seem to believe Jesus to be your Messiah, since it seems you consider yourself Jewish. I do not have a problem with atheists who say there never was a Jesus. Nor do I blame Talmudic Jewish students who repeat far worse statements they have read about Him. I would wish you to believe otherwise, but it's your privilege to believe as a Jew, Hindu, Satanist or whatever you choose. To a follower of Christ you are and can only be a non-believer, whether you are some flavor of Jewish, a self-professed atheist, or any sect that does not believe Jesus was spiritually (not sexually) generated by God of a woman, and that "no one can come to the Father except through the Son," as Jesus put it. Because Jesus said this over and over again, we who try our best to follow him have no option but to believe it. This makes you a pagan to true followers. And there is such a faith as "Christian-Zionism." However, Jesus also says we are obligated to love you, even if you make yourself an enemy to us, for if I considered you an enemy I might not try to change you, and in Jesus' eye this is a sin. This is the wonderful and incomprehensible dilemma in following Him. I understand you to be Jewish, and I cannot be sure you are not one of these assigned to watch and engage us. We have much experience in this area. We asked for your bio, but you did not send it. Regardless of who you are, though, you get the same answer from me, because there is only one answer. Strangely enough, Beatrice, some 100 million Americans who call themselves Christian-Zionist share this same anti-Christ view of the Old and New Testaments. Strait Gate Ministries is organized to challenge this heresy among some 100 million professing Christians, including our President, who do not follow Jesus, and therefore do not really believe what he told us about himself: that he is the son of God, that he will judge each of us at God's right hand, and that we must follow him sacrificially. Our group is all about changing these apostate Christians on the so-called "right" who allow themselves to be called Christian-Zionists. This, in itself, is just plain silly. As a faith, "Christian Zionism" should be laughed at as a farcical paradox instead of being taken seriously. It is far easier for me to explain this to a non-believer like you than to a Christian-Zionist who thinks he or she is a Christian, because we can use logic that both of us understand without resorting to old books that must be taken on faith. It is much easier to talk to you than it is to talk to persons who have been erroneously trained to think they are following Christ, when they replace his words with something a "Reverend" has gleaned from the Old Testament. This is the reigning heresy of Christian-Zionism. It is not only apostasy to put the old over and in front of the new; it is also foolish and illogical. Christian-Zionists must avoid or deny logic to maintain a false faith; they must lie, go to war, and fight to defend it. We followers of Jesus should accept the self-evident logic that the new covenant took the place of the old one. It is the essence of Christianity. Let us test the logic that is in law, medicine, science and literature. Does not your new auto insurance policy supersede the old one? The old premium is history. The coverage is what is in the new one that comes in your mailbox every year. The old is gone. So also, does not the new last will and testament take precedence over the old one, making it history? If you are left out of your uncle's latest will, you are probably out of luck. The same is true for textbooks on physics or medicine. You rely on the latest, not the oldest. The same is true of the new phone book and the new deed to the old house you live in, the new driver's license, etc. The new always supercedes the old, in literature, science and law, and in everything else that follows the law of reason and logic. Beatrice, can you show me a single exception to this law? Now God is the author of logic and intelligence; I know you can agree with me, if you believe there is a God. Then do not make God out to be a fool by saying he cannot understand logic and write a cogent paragraph. The Old Testament (to Christ followers) is a Jewish history with Jewish covenants. It has nothing to do with the New Testament and its new covenant for Christ followers to live by, except for its value as history. To followers of Christ, your old Hebrew book (Torah) is history, valued only because it predicts the coming of Jesus. It provides no valid real estate claims, and Christ followers should ignore claims of racial favoritism. God has written a new last will and testament, called the New Testament. The old is history. You, Beatrice, may believe the Old Testament is the New. But Christian Zionists find that the old book suits their apostate religion better, so they join you in denying the New. Those who call themselves by Christ's name should not do this. It is called "apostasy," or falling away. You have not fallen away, because you don't profess to be a Christian. You are not apostate like the others, because you have nothing to fall away from. Do you understand why I don't get mad at you when you insult me, or even if you insult Christ himself? It is my job to convince you should look at what Jesus said in light of logic; if you believe him, you will subordinate the Old Testament to the New Testament, as the followers of Christ did. So, a sincere thanks to you for giving me a chance to explain this, and I would be happy to send you a complete copy of the New Testament as a gift, if you would care to have one. Just tell me where to send it, even if it is in Israel. Then you will see what we followers of Christ believe and why we cannot and must not rely on the Torah as a superior law. My best from an attempting follower of Christ, which path we call the Strait Gate, Charles Carlson
Poster Comment: Click the link for Beatrice's letter in its entirety.
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#1. To: christine (#0)
interesting. from a heathen whose gonna burn in hayul...
Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'
Further.. Why would you want the old Covenant? There's no salvation to be found there.
BUSH: The man is practicing fuzzy math again. There's differences. Under Vice President Gore's plan, he is going to grow the federal government in the largest increase since Lyndon Baines Johnson in 1965.
you would want it to justify your own actions...such as 'chosen race'...'promised land'....'vengence is mine'....'god punishes the wicked'...and all that shit. of course, then YOU get to decide who the wicked are and all that. nice little scam
Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'
Yeah, that's the only reason I can think of.. cause all that nastiness get's the big frownie in the NT.
BUSH: The man is practicing fuzzy math again. There's differences. Under Vice President Gore's plan, he is going to grow the federal government in the largest increase since Lyndon Baines Johnson in 1965.
if you want to distill the two versions down into one word, i suggest this would be the most appropriate. OT-fear but most christians are still in fear and judgement mode.
Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'
That's a good observation.. Peronally, I would go with: OT - Temporal NT - Spiritual
BUSH: The man is practicing fuzzy math again. There's differences. Under Vice President Gore's plan, he is going to grow the federal government in the largest increase since Lyndon Baines Johnson in 1965.
Ive been informed by folks who are fighting the ISM that you, Mr. Carlson, are a well known, virulent anti-semite. Im sorry I wasted both your time and mine, and Im sorry to find this out about you. At the time I wrote you, I actually thought you were a man with whom I could reason. At this point, to give you the information I was going to give you might hamper the efforts of good people. Youll have to do your own research...which is something I recommend, especially concering your complete misinterpretation of Scripture. You know little of the true history of the Christian religion...did you know Jesus actually quoted some of the great Jewish sages of his day, and actually supported most of Pharisaic Judaism??? If you knew anything about original sources, if you knew Hebrew and Greek in any depth, if you knew the Midrash Rabbah and the Talmud in any depth, you would know that Jesus actually supported more of the Judaism of his day then he criticized...the criticism he leveled at his fellow Pharisees is no different then the polemical arugmentation youll hear in any yeshiva today. The people he actually took serious issue with were the ruling elites, which were, for the most part not Pharisees (they were the liberal party, the party of the common man) but Sadducees...they didnt believe in eternal life, most of the Priestly class ere Sadducess...they were bought out by Rome and corrupt...they were the ones who arranged the "kangaroo court" that condemned Jesus to death. (They were also a MINORITY of the Jewish people...Jesus enjoyed popular support) What Jesus was arguing against, Mr. Carlson, was against elitist religious corruption...not against traditional Jewish practice. Anybody who studies this at any yeshiva, or at Hebrew University knows this Mr. Carlson. The Jewish community today rejects Jesus because of what people like you have done to them in his name...they would not reject the historic Jesus if he was presented accurately, and if they didnt have 2000 years of murderous memories to deal with by criminals who claim that Christians replaced Israel. Read your new testament a little more carefully, preferably with a reliable computer program that has the Greek translation if you dont know Greek...Christians are GRAFTED into Israel...nowhere does is say Christians replace Israel. In fact, Christians are admonished not to become arrogant agains natural Israel. Think about it. Its obvious now why you think Mrs. Obeidallahs article is accurate. Lets not waste any more of one anothers time. Im sure you have some deep seated anger issues that keep your mind completely shut. Hope someday you have a change of heart, for your sake, B.L.F. Actually, Christians are admonished against becoming arrogant LIKE the Pharasees of the day. They are told just as others were grafted out, they can be also. IMO this woman is likely just a subversive and should be ignored.
BUSH: The man is practicing fuzzy math again. There's differences. Under Vice President Gore's plan, he is going to grow the federal government in the largest increase since Lyndon Baines Johnson in 1965.
One only need look to the New Testament scriptures themselves to see that the so-called "Old Testament" was the very foundation for the first Christians' faith (in their time, after all, the so-called "New Testament" was not yet written): Matthew 5:17-20 - Jesus affirms Torah and says emphatically, "I have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets (i.e. the so-called "Old Testament"). He also says, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments or teaches others to do so will be the least in the kingdom of heaven," and yet, the "Christian" above does exactly that, contending for exactly the opposite of what Christ himself said he was about. Matthew 23:2-3 - Jesus affirms the authority and teachings of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, telling his followers, "The teachers of the law and the Pharasees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you..." He condemns them not for their teaching, but for their failure to practice what they preach. Luke 24:27 - After his resurrection, Jesus shores up the failing faith of his disciples by explaining the so-called "Old Testament" to them: "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself." Note that, at the time of Christs resurrection, the so-called "Old Testament" constituted "all the Scriptures" and were the sole foundation for faith in Messiah (since the so-called New Testament had yet to be written). And yet, the so-called "Christian" above denies them and thinks them contrary to true Christian faith? Such a notion is absurd. Luke 24:44 - Again, Jesus cites the so-called "Old Testament" as the basis for believing that he is Messiah: "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms." John 5:46 - Jesus says that faith in him follows from faith in Moses: "Had you believed in Moses, you would have also believed in me, for he wrote about me." Doesn't it also follow then, that rejecting Moses (the so-called "Old Testament") is akin to rejecting Christ? Acts 8:28 - Phillip brings an Ethiopian to faith in Christ via the so- called "Old Testament." Acts 21:20 - Tens of thousands of Jewish followers of Messiah are lauded by by James, the brother of Jesus and head of the fellowship of believers in Jerusalem, for being "zealous for the law." In other words, the first Jewish followers of Christ still followed Moses as Christ himself did (and taught) when he lived among them. Acts 21:24 - James says of Paul, "there is no truth in these reports about you [reports that is that Paul is teaching Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses], but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law." Contrary to the teachings of the so-called "Christian" above, Paul and all the Jewish believers in Christ still kept Torah as Christ himself did. Acts 21:21-24 - Paul and four other believers in Christ go to the Temple and participate in a Torah prescribed purification rite to demonstrate that those who say they teach others to turn away from Moses (the so-called "Old Testament") -- like the so-called "Christian" above -- "have no truth in them." Romans 11:28-29 - Paul affirms that unbelieving Jews are loved by God on account of the Patriarchs and that their gifts and call of God are irrevocable. In so doing, Paul affirms everything the so-called "Old Testament" teaches concerning the Jews and their place in God's great plan of salvation, and yet, the so-called Christion above denies this? In sum, when so-called Christians like the one above are expressly contradicted by scripture -- by Testaments new as well as "old" -- and by the very words of Christ himself, as well as the writings of his disciples, this follower of Christ stands with the latter and rejects the former. For deeper insight into the gross scripture-denying deception that has befallen so many so-called "Christians", I highly recommend the following book: Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
There's no salvation to be found there. Marcion the first editor, compiler, of the New Testament ( Rome, AD 135-150) believed Paul the prophet had declared the Old Testament as fulfilled and concluded. Going a step farther, Marcion the real creator of the New Testament pronounced the Old Testament defeated and cancelled. He saw in Paul’s work only the basis on which to found the true religion of salvation, and he strove to cut everything Jewish out of it, down to the last detail. From end to end he was fighting nothing but Judaism. If he had had his way, the New Testament would have stood alone, without the evil corruption of Jehovah, Yahweh, the Demiurge, the Creator-God, whatever, and the burden to lesser humans of a Jewish master race in a book that was written by Jews and for Jews. Well, as we all know, the early Roman Church canonized the Old Testament, and it has corrupted Christianity ever since. One could say that the popularity of the New Testament, carrying the Old along in its wake, has given legitimacy to the so-called Jews of today, imposters for the most part, with no connection to ancient Israel, let alone God. If the Old Testament had not been included with the New, and if the Khazar Kingdom had not converted to Judaism eight centuries after Christ, Judaism likely would have perished as a major religion. The key is the word, “Judeo,” as in Judeo-Christian. I must agree with Marcion, the real creator of the New Testament, that the symbiosis with the Old Testament not only confounds but defeats the good principals of Christianity. In the end the Old Testament may prove to be the poison that destroys the message of Christ, giving final victory to the modern-day Pharisees, i.e Zionism and its Christian Zionist syncopates.. -Z-.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
Marcion is contradicted expressly by both Paul and Christ in the very New Testament you say he was the first editor of (see my post above). As such, I stand agree with them, not Marcion, and the whole revelation of God they affirm (but Marcion denies).
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
#2. To: christine (#0)
#3. To: Jhoffa_ (#2)
#4. To: gengis gandhi (#3)
#5. To: Jhoffa_ (#4)
NT-love
#6. To: gengis gandhi (#5)
#7. To: christine (#0)
Mr. Carlson,
#8. To: Jhoffa_, gengis gandhi, christine, Zipporah, robin, RickyJ, wbales, Eoghan, Jethro Tull, Flintlock, crack monkey, lodwick, OKCSubmariner, aristeides, BTP Holdings, Coral Snake, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#7)
The Old Testament (to Christ followers) is a Jewish history with Jewish covenants. It has nothing to do with the New Testament and its new covenant for Christ followers to live by, except for its value as history.
#9. To: Jhoffa_christine, gengis gandhi, (#2)
Further.. Why would you want the old Covenant?
#10. To: Zoroaster (#9)
I must agree with Marcion, the real creator of the New Testament, that the symbiosis with the Old Testament not only confounds but defeats the good principals of Christianity.
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