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Title: Faster than light particles found, claim scientists
Source:
guardian.co.uk,
URL Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2 ... ommentpage=4#start-of-comments
Published: Sep 23, 2011
Author: Ian Sample, science correspondent
Post Date: 2011-09-23 01:32:37 by Tatarewicz
Keywords: None
Views: 133
Comments: 7
Particle physicists detect neutrinos travelling faster than light, a feat forbidden by Einstein's theory of special relativity Subatomic Neutrino Tracks Neutrinos, like the ones above, have been detected travelling faster than light, say particle physicists. It is a concept that forms a cornerstone of our understanding of the universe and the concept of time – nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. But now it seems that researchers working in one of the world's largest physics laboratories, under a mountain in central Italy, have recorded particles travelling at a speed that is supposedly forbidden by Einstein's theory of special relativity. Scientists at the Gran Sasso facility will unveil evidence on Friday that raises the troubling possibility of a way to send information back in time, blurring the line between past and present and wreaking havoc with the fundamental principle of cause and effect. They will announce the result at a special seminar at Cern – the European particle physics laboratory – timed to coincide with the publication of a research paper describing the experiment. Researchers on the Opera (Oscillation Project with Emulsion-tRacking Apparatus) experiment recorded the arrival times of ghostly subatomic particles called neutrinos sent from Cern on a 730km journey through the Earth to the Gran Sasso lab. The trip would take a beam of light 2.4 milliseconds to complete, but after running the experiment for three years and timing the arrival of 15,000 neutrinos, the scientists discovered that the particles arrived at Gran Sasso sixty billionths of a second earlier, with an error margin of plus or minus 10 billionths of a second. The measurement amounts to the neutrinos travelling faster than the speed of light by a fraction of 20 parts per million. Since the speed of light is 299,792,458 metres per second, the neutrinos were evidently travelling at 299,798,454 metres per second. The result is so unlikely that even the research team is being cautious with its interpretation. Physicists said they would be sceptical of the finding until other laboratories confirmed the result. Antonio Ereditato, coordinator of the Opera collaboration, told the Guardian: "We are very much astonished by this result, but a result is never a discovery until other people confirm it. "When you get such a result you want to make sure you made no mistakes, that there are no nasty things going on you didn't think of. We spent months and months doing checks and we have not been able to find any errors. "If there is a problem, it must be a tough, nasty effect, because trivial things we are clever enough to rule out." The Opera group said it hoped the physics community would scrutinise the result and help uncover any flaws in the measurement, or verify it with their own experiments. Subir Sarkar, head of particle theory at Oxford University, said: "If this is proved to be true it would be a massive, massive event. It is something nobody was expecting. "The constancy of the speed of light essentially underpins our understanding of space and time and causality, which is the fact that cause comes before effect. "Cause cannot come after effect and that is absolutely fundamental to our construction of the physical universe. If we do not have causality, we are buggered." The Opera experiment detects neutrinos as they strike 150,000 "bricks" of photographic emulsion films interleaved with lead plates. The detector weighs a total of 1300 tonnes. Despite the marginal increase on the speed of light observed by Ereditato's team, the result is intriguing because its statistical significance, the measure by which particle physics discoveries stand and fall, is so strong. Physicists can claim a discovery if the chances of their result being a fluke of statistics are greater than five standard deviations, or less than one in a few million. The Gran Sasso team's result is six standard deviations. Ereditato said the team would not claim a discovery because the result was so radical. "Whenever you touch something so fundamental, you have to be much more prudent," he said. Alan Kostelecky, an expert in the possibility of faster-than-light processes at Indiana University, said that while physicists would await confirmation of the result, it was none the less exciting. "It's such a dramatic result it would be difficult to accept without others replicating it, but there will be enormous interest in this," he told the Guardian. One theory Kostelecky and his colleagues put forward in 1985 predicted that neutrinos could travel faster than the speed of light by interacting with an unknown field that lurks in the vacuum. "With this kind of background, it is not necessarily the case that the limiting speed in nature is the speed of light," he said. "It might actually be the speed of neutrinos and light goes more slowly." Neutrinos are mysterious particles. They have a minuscule mass, no electric charge, and pass through almost any material as though it was not there. Kostelecky said that if the result was verified – a big if – it might pave the way to a grand theory that marries gravity with quantum mechanics, a puzzle that has defied physicists for nearly a century. "If this is confirmed, this is the first evidence for a crack in the structure of physics as we know it that could provide a clue to constructing such a unified theory," Kostelecky said. Heinrich Paes, a physicist at Dortmund University, has developed another theory that could explain the result. The neutrinos may be taking a shortcut through space-time, by travelling from Cern to Gran Sasso through extra dimensions. "That can make it look like a particle has gone faster than the speed of light when it hasn't," he said. But Susan Cartwright, senior lecturer in particle astrophysics at Sheffield University, said: "Neutrino experimental results are not historically all that reliable, so the words 'don't hold your breath' do spring to mind when you hear very counter-intuitive results like this." Teams at two experiments known as T2K in Japan and MINOS near Chicago in the US will now attempt to replicate the finding. The MINOS experiment saw hints of neutrinos moving at faster than the speed of light in 2007 but has yet to confirm them. Comments: if gordon brown and tony blair hadnt f*cked our econmey this would never have happened!!!!!! Mmmrrrggglll That's quantum entanglement, but there's no way to use it to send a signal faster than light. @OliverNettle Yes there is - as far as I understand it - quantum entanglement allows faster than light signalling. If you take to entangled particles and place them at separate ends of the universe there is no travel time between the entanglement effect. So... if you change one of the particles in a systematic way - ie encoding a message in the way you move it or whatnot - anyone holding the other particle at the other end should be able to retrieve the message you produced. However, this does not violate the faster than barrier as there is no evidence of anything "traveling" between the two particle. The being entangled simply appears to make them - for want of a better expression - the 'same' particle to some extent. What you do to one happens to the other in some form. Not that anyone has been abbe to explain this kind of spooky action at a distance. At least, that is how I understand it feel free to correct me. This result appears to show a particle with actual mass - albeit very small mass - traveling faster than light. That is a whole new world of crazyness! Recommend? (7) ie encoding a message in the way you move it or whatnot Entanglement doesn't mean that you can do that. What happens as I understand it is that when you test the particle its then randomly sets itself into a particular state, and the entangled twin goes into the opposite state. But since you can't control which state it goes into you can't actually send any message. You can't watch the twin to see when it collapses into a specific state, because whatever you do to watch it would cause it to do that immediately. Similar discussion here, here, and here StewPot: Mike Richards says: We observe bursts of neutrinos from supernovae many hundreds if not thousands of light years from Earth. If neutrinos were travelling even fractionally faster than light, we should see the neutrinos arrive days if not years before the visible flash. AFAIK this has never been observed, so that suggests there is a measuring error in the experiment - maybe it's not as far from Switzerland to Italy as they think? This is incorrect. The neutrinos from supernovas do indeed arrive before the visible flash. From Wikipedia article "Supernova Early Warning System": Enormous numbers of neutrinos are produced in the core of a red giant star as it collapses on itself. In the current model the neutrinos are emitted well before the light from the supernova peaks, so in principle neutrino detectors could give advance warning to astronomers that a supernova has occurred and may soon be visible. The neutrino pulse from supernova 1987A was detected 3 hours before the photons but this detection occurred before SNEWS was active. I don't claim that this invalidates MikeRichards' point entirely, but it needs to be restated more accurately in order to be a worthwhile comment. Cynical Optimist:1. I've always wondered what happens when two flashlights are shone at each other. How do the photons from each not pass each other faster than the speed of light. Can someone explain? 2. Maybe light used to be limited to 3x10^8 m per sec, but it has since changed e.g., with expansion of Universe? Why not indeed? Why should it stay fixed from time = 0 to time = infinity? 3. Maybe the Italian clock runs slower than the Swiss clock... Cornelia23: BS@ nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum But there is no such thing as a vacuum.
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#1. To: Tatarewicz (#0)
Relativity has been thoroughly tested in every way and found to agree with nature.
This latest finding will probably be found to be a statistical error, or some quirk about neutrinos.
Anyone offended by this post, click here.
 | "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion." -Albert Camus. |
#2. To: Armadillo (#1)
The data is what the data is. "A thousand experiments cannot prove me right, one experiment can prove me wrong." ~ Albert Einstein
#3. To: Armadillo (#1)
In physics, a photon is an elementary particle, the quantum of the electromagnetic interaction and the basic unit of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation. It is also the force carrier for the electromagnetic force. The effects of this force are easily observable at both the microscopic and macroscopic level, because the photon has no rest mass; this allows for interactions at long distances. Like all elementary particles, photons are currently best explained by quantum mechanics and will exhibit wave–particle duality, exhibiting properties of both waves and particles. For example, a single photon may be refracted by a lens or exhibit wave interference with itself, but also act as a particle giving a definite result when quantitative momentum (quantized angular momentum) is measured. The modern concept of the photon was developed gradually by Albert Einstein to explain experimental observations that did not fit the classical wave model of light. In particular, the photon model accounted for the frequency dependence of light's energy, and explained the ability of matter and radiation to be in thermal equilibrium. It also accounted for anomalous observations, including the properties of black body radiation, that other physicists, most notably Max Planck, had sought to explain using semiclassical models, in which light is still described by Maxwell's equations, but the material objects that emit and absorb light are quantized. Although these semiclassical models contributed to the development of quantum mechanics, further experiments[citation needed] validated Einstein's hypothesis that light itself is quantized; the quanta of light are photons. In the Standard Model of particle physics, photons are described as a necessary consequence of physical laws having a certain symmetry at every point in spacetime. The intrinsic properties of photons, such as charge, mass and spin, are determined by the properties of this gauge symmetry. The neutrino theory of light, which attempts to describe the photon as a composite structure, has been unsuccessful so far. The photon concept has led to momentous advances in experimental and theoretical physics, such as lasers, Bose–Einstein condensation, quantum field theory, and the probabilistic interpretation of quantum mechanics. It has been applied to photochemistry, high-resolution microscopy, and measurements of molecular distances. Recently, photons have been studied as elements of quantum computers and for sophisticated applications in optical communication such as quantum cryptography. A neutrino ( English pronunciation: /njuÐÈtriÐnoŠ/,Italian pronunciation: [neuÈtriÐno]) is an electrically neutral, weakly interacting elementary subatomic particle[1]. Meaning "small neutral one", it is an elementary particle that usually travels close to the speed of light, although recent and very controversial preliminary test data exists that they may travel faster in certain circumstances[2][3]. It is also electrically neutral and is able to pass through ordinary matter almost unaffected, "like a bullet passing through a bank of fog"[4]. Neutrinos have a very small, but nonzero mass. They are denoted by the Greek letter ½ (nu). Neutrinos are similar to the more familiar electron, with one crucial difference: neutrinos do not carry electric charge. Because neutrinos are electrically neutral, they are not affected by the electromagnetic forces which act on electrons. Neutrinos are affected only by the weak sub-atomic force of much shorter range than electromagnetism, and are therefore able to pass through great distances within matter without being affected by it. Neutrinos also interact gravitationally with other particles. Neutrinos are created as a result of certain types of radioactive decay or nuclear reactions such as those that take place in the Sun, in nuclear reactors, or when cosmic rays hit atoms. There are three types, or "flavors", of neutrinos: electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos. Each type also has a corresponding antiparticle, called an antineutrino. Electron neutrinos (or antineutrinos) result when protons decay, through beta decay, to neutrons, or vice versa. Interactions involving neutrinos are mediated by the weak interaction. Most neutrinos passing through the Earth emanate from the Sun. Every second, in the region of the Earth, about 65 billion (6.5×1010) solar neutrinos pass through every square centimeter perpendicular to the direction of the sun.[5] Photons being electromagnetic in nature may be more subject to speed retardation than neutrinos which have no charge:
#4. To: Tatarewicz (#0)
I knew it! Hyperspace is real!!!
"Terrorism is when the innocent are murdered due to the evil actions of the guilty." -- Turtle
#5. To: Original_Intent (#2)
No it's not, as we have seen displayed in the AGW debate.The data is what the data is.
Data, even raw data, is subject to human error.
Anyone offended by this post, click here.
| "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion." -Albert Camus. |
#6. To: Tatarewicz (#3)
Exceeding the local speed of light is possible, but not the universal speed of light. Hyperspace is probably real, but you can not get there by going fast.
it is an elementary particle that usually travels close to the speed of light, although recent and very controversial preliminary test data exists that they may travel faster in certain circumstances
For example, light slows down passing through water.
Anyone offended by this post, click here.
| "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion." -Albert Camus. |
#7. To: Turtle (#4)
Of course it's real, how else did the aliens who built the cities on the Moon that Nasa airbrushes out of photos get here without it?
"I knew it! Hyperspace is real!!!"
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