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Title: DINOSAUR and HUMAN FOOTPRINTS TOGETHER
Source:
POKERFACE E MAIL
URL Source: http://184.154.224.5/~creatio1/inde ... tent&task=view&id=48&Itemid=24
Published: Oct 14, 2011
Author: Paul and Poker Face
Post Date: 2011-10-14 06:12:12 by HOUNDDAWG
Keywords: None
Views: 936
Comments: 66
Introduction: In early July, 2000 Alvis Delk, assisted by James Bishop (both of Stephenville, Texas), was working in the Cretaceous limestone on the McFall property at the Paluxy River near Glen Rose, Texas and discovered a pristine human footprint intruded by a dinosaur footprint. This discovery was made in the vicinity of McFall I and II Sites where the Creation Evidence Museum team has excavated since the Spring of 1982. The eleven-inch human footprint matches seven other such footprints of the same dimensions in the “Sir George Series,” named in honor of His Excellency Governor General Ratu Sir George Cacobau of Fiji.[2] Scientific Verification of Footprint Authenticity: The fossil was transported to a professional laboratory where 800 X-rays were performed in a CT Scan procedure. Laboratory technicians verified compression and distribution features clearly seen in both prints, human and dinosaur. This removes any possibility that the prints were carved or altered. Importance of Discovery: Professor James Stewart Monroe, writing in Journal of Geological Education candidly asserted that “Human footprints in geologically ancient strata would indeed call into doubt many conventional geological concepts.”[3] Professor David H. Milne of The Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington and Professor Steven D. Schafersman of the Department of Geology, Rice University, Houston, Texas made further admissions in writing that “Such an occurrence, if verified, would seriously disrupt conventional interpretations of biological and geological history and would support the doctrines of creationism and catastrophism.”[4] Professor Steven M. Stanley in The New Evolutionary Timetable opined that “any topsy-turvy sequence of fossils would force us to rethink our theory…As Darwin recognized, a single geographic inconsistency would have nearly the same power of destruction.”[5]
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#27. To: Original_Intent (#12)
Yep, read that too. Appears to be a true story, but of course there's no publically available PROOF of such, except for the newspaper article. This "human print" under fossil thing appears to be some wishful thinking though, the print doesn't even seem like a real footprint, never mind a human footprint. It could have been CARVED that long ago though. However, I don't see a human footprint there, just a crude attempt to draw something that has five toes or fingers.
H. Murray Who? Perhaps this unknown was the designated hatchet man at The American Biology Teacher who was assigned the task of whistling past the cemetery. And fielding an unknown with no credentials (is he the maintenance superintendent?) to stake is quite telling. I suspect that nothing short of a lightning bolt from Jehovah Yahweh himself, (One Universe Way, Divine Galaxy, Heaven Above) would force any of the establishment publications or institutions to acknowledge any evidence that conflicts with the official pseudo scientific fairie tale. The pyramids adjacent to Cuba are clearly not natural formations and the depth of the water alone is evidence of the lies we are told about the length of time MAN has been on Earth. The researcher who attempted to expose that evidence as well as the giant structures that were visible off the coast of India during the Tsunami low tide is routinely character assassinated by establishment pimps. Although you're always energetic and the first to pounce to protect the wormy system, your haughty self assured performance is so obviously done in haste that a visual representation would look like this:
What evidence is there that those are human prints? If you discovered those prints on your property how much time and money would you spend trying to discredit the obvious implications? That's not how it's done. If you or any other skeptic/critic wishes to challenge the evidence then it's up to you to provide evidence of tool marks and/or sandblasting or other evidence of fraud. If I know I committed no fraud then only a seriously deficient mind would suggest that I'm obligated to first accuse and then prove the case against myself. Your question suggests that all challenges to the dogma must be resolved prior to public exposure to insulate the Pollyannas among us from intellectual stimulation or controversy. In any case I apologize if my post overtaxed anyone's resources.
Gotta love math. :) That may seem logical but what about extinction level events along the way that may have wiped out large numbers of inhabitants. In the absence of hard numbers (before and after, and how many times has the board been swept clean?) that would be a large variable-unknown-X factor that would not readily compute. And other factors (such as potato famines) could seriously alter the normal reproduction and survival rates of various regions. Figures don't lie but liars figure! We are stranded with four flat tires until all those with agendas have been "factored out", and as you can see we have not yet begun to realize that. I'm not convinced of anything except that in our culture the established authorities and their groupies will lie faster than a (bi pedal) horse can trot to avoid any admission of ignorance and to protect their robes of omniscience, regardless of how deserving they are to wear them. Remember according to "our intractable laws of physics and well established scientific principles" a honeybee should be incapable of flight. And many of the same eggheads who are at a loss to explain that will tell us with absolute certainty when and how the universe was formed and savage any who question their absolute conclusions.
I believe that the origin contains elements of BOTH Creation and Evolution. There does seem to be overwhelming fossil evidence (involving the lower jawbones of the animals involved) that the mammals came from reptiles through a class of animals once considered reptiles but no longer considered as such by Cladist Evolutionists called the Synapsida. However when it comes to the population of the world with animals the Bible tells us that He MADE the animals from the earth. He did NOT create them ex-nilo. The evidence for this consists of the gradual reduction of the Quadrate and Articular bones of the lower jaw and the skull as Synapsids advance until they become the Ossicle and Hammer bones of the middle ear. The development of Marsupial mammals also goes through a "Synapsid" stage where they have a standard reptilian Quadrate Articular jaw hinge that shrinks and migrates to the middle ear as the hammer and ossicle bones. Take as a forinstance our favorite invention from our own time, the GUN. While an inanimate object the history of the gun is that of Evolution guided by Intellegent Design. When you take the Intellegent Design out of the picture an and basically say that things make themselves like the Atheistic Evolutionsist do an AK-47 as a forinstance is simply an evolvoved Russian percussion cap musket. The same with your "wonder nine" Barreta or Glock It is sumply the current state of evolution of the Eurpean percussion cap dueling postol. I am of the view that God could have made animals from other animals because the Bible tells us this is true with our own species. It clearly states that God made woman from man. It is also within the relm of possibility that God added the genes needed to eventually produce mammals in the group of reptiles that became the Synapsida and eventually the mammals themselves
The introduction to that book is on the internet and it's very good. Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton The human herd stampedes on the fields of facts and the valleys of truth to get to the desert of ignorance. Saman Mohammadi The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. Albert Einstein "...if the military is going to defend our freedoms, then we need freedoms to defend. Our freedoms must be restored before the military can defend them..." Lawrence M. Vance Você me trata desse jeito só porque eu sou preto. Junior (my youngest son)
The funny thing about this book is that I could not find it for sale anywhere in the USA. I had to buy it from a UK bookseller.
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I have looked for it here too but couldn't find it.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton The human herd stampedes on the fields of facts and the valleys of truth to get to the desert of ignorance. Saman Mohammadi The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. Albert Einstein "...if the military is going to defend our freedoms, then we need freedoms to defend. Our freedoms must be restored before the military can defend them..." Lawrence M. Vance Você me trata desse jeito só porque eu sou preto. Junior (my youngest son)
Mathematicians with access to more data than myself at moment, have come up with a figure of about 168 years, as the average amount of time it has taken for human population to double throughout written history. Even if we suppose an average of 10 times that, or 1680 years, we could have populated the earth to current levels 35 times. That would have left behind trillions of human remains and archeologists just haven't found anything resembling those kinds of numbers.
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I got it here: www.vitalminerals.org/zen...duct_info&products_id=235 It takes about a week to get it.
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Thanks Critter.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Lord Acton The human herd stampedes on the fields of facts and the valleys of truth to get to the desert of ignorance. Saman Mohammadi The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. Albert Einstein "...if the military is going to defend our freedoms, then we need freedoms to defend. Our freedoms must be restored before the military can defend them..." Lawrence M. Vance Você me trata desse jeito só porque eu sou preto. Junior (my youngest son)
The purported "human" prints at Paluxy look more like outlines of a foot -- though not always in normal human proportions -- and do not display the "squish" that would naturally occur from a human foot walking or running in sand or mud. Moreover, attempts to track the supposed human prints are usually futile -- as if the human somehow put one foot down in the middle of the riverbed and then FLEW away without putting down the other foot or taking a step; the "human" prints are isolated this way. The usual scientific explanation is that the "human" prints are actually partials of dinosaur prints -- that is, just the part of the dinosaur's foot if it were running or backing up or something -- and sometimes these isolated "human" prints line up with obvious dinosaur tracks so this is pretty indisputable.
I'd say that there are a few possibilities, but fraud is not the only one. 1) Fraud 2) It's possible it's not a human foot print but maybe a combination of 2 footprints that by sheer chance appears to be a single human/primate footprint. 3) Maybe it's not a footprint at all but a chance natural imprint from a log and maybe some stones? 4) Is it possible that the object could have been first fossilized with a dino print and then somehow resoftened through some unknown natural processs within the last several thousand years where it acquired the second print? This is certainly a stretch at best, but... *perhaps* not as much of a stretch to conclude humans lived with dinos. 5) Maybe the human print is real but the dino print was not from a dino, but from something much more recent, perhaps from some ceremonial object made by humans responsible for the print? Not all equally likely, of course but possibilities to be discounted nonetheless.
Rense duped us again......grrrrrr.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
6) Maybe it is Bigfoot or Yeti.....those creatures are far more crafty than humans. : )
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
DNA tests have shown that at one point human populations were reduced to near extinction. Who is to say it didn't happen more than once?
Not trying to make the Nazi comparison here but didn't Hitler do something similar. Wasn't he always trying to rewrite history and twist archeology to fit his agenda. Interesting side note, not talking specifics here, just concepts. If Hitler's archeology versions were correct, they would not be accepted based solely on source.
The problem of course with anomalous evidence such as the Paluxy River tracks is that they do not fit within the established limits of the standard evolution theory. So, like a lot of other contrary, or out of place, evidenciary anomalies the kneejerk response of the established academic order is to label it a fraud and look for every way possible, no matter how specious, to be able to give it a "refuted" label and then quickly sweep it under the carpet. On the other end of the spectrum Biblical Creationists wish to use each and every anomaly to validate their particular set of beliefs. Neither group is engaging in science and both are operating from a faith based system. For the record I am neither a strict evolutionist nor a "Young Earth" Creationist. I find both to be hopelessly biased and too busy supporting or disparaging data which does not fit within the narrow framework of their biases. In the case of the Darwinists their god is Darwinian Materialism and a rejection of other religious beliefs and for the Biblical Creationists each and every possible evidence is seized on in a rampage of, "Seee!, seeeeeeeeeee!," we're right and your're wrong - thhhhhhhhhhhhhppppppp!!! Of course the real application of the Scientific Method is to examine the evidence, and attempt to see what the evidence tells you without preconceptions of what it has to mean, or that if it does not agree with established theory it is, of course, a fraud. So, if one is following the scientific method the question is, "What does the evidence tell us?," and not an automatic assumption that it is fraudulent or confirms some other belief. I repeat is always, always, always, to the objective investigator, "WHAT DOES THE EVIDENCE TELL US?" The following article, although written by a "Young Earth Creationist" is otherwise a fairly objective explanation of the basic data set. Again I am NOT a "Young Earth Creationist", but do believe that there is a motive force of a non-material nature which drives the engine called creation, and evolution. As a side issue I believe the physical universe is likely much much older than any dare publicly posit and that "creation" is an event that has been repeated over and over down the course of the trilennia. Author: Doug Sharp The Revolution Against Evolution team joined Dr. Carl Baugh of the Creation Evidence Museum in an excavation of a dinosaur track sequence on the Paluxy riverbank at the McFall ranch just north of Dinosaur Valley State Park near Glen Rose, Texas. This dig took place July 5 thru 16, 2004 and we participated in the second week July 12 - 16. This site is the subject of much controversy and speculation, since there are also many tracks that appear to be human footprints. They are of interest to creationists, since if dinosaur and human tracks are found together, this would appear to support the creationist idea that dinosaurs lived in recent times, before Noah's flood, and for some time afterward. Creationists believe that the dragons of legend are the dinosaurs of science, because depictions of such creatures in historical documents often make an uncanny match to the morphology of known dinosaurs. Because Dr. Baugh has dedicated much of his research toward the study of these tracks, he is the subject of much attack and scrutiny. There are many anti-Baugh web sites on the Internet, and since Dr. Baugh is the subject of many discussions among creationists and evolutionists alike, I do not wish to rehash any of this controversy here. My interest was to view the track for myself by participating in a dig. I feel that the personal nature of the attacks against the credibility Dr. Baugh are a smokescreen to distract people from the real issues. With or without Dr. Baugh, the tracks have a story to tell, and my interest was to observe and report what we found. In this essay we support Dr. Baugh in regards to what we observed on this particular dig and the evidence from the tracks themselves. He has done research in many other areas that are controversial, and we will not attempt to speak for him regarding those issues. During the time we were at the excavation, the team uncovered 10 new dinosaur tracks, and one new track that looked like a human slide print. This area had seen previous work by other teams. The excavation we participated in extended the known track sequence to 46 continuous prints. This is one of the longest dinosaur track sequences in North America. The longest sequence in the Western Hemisphere, 136 prints, is the Turnage-Patton trail, found in the middle of the Paluxy river bed, less than a mile from the excavation site. One of the impressions we got at the dig site was the way the excavation was done in a professional manner. The dig site consisted of a layer of limestone, then a layer of clay, overlying the limestone layer in which the tracks lay. The limestone cap was carefully removed with a jackhammer, exposing the clay layer, which we excavated inch by inch using the chisel end of a masonry hammer, and if a track was found, the clay would be carefully removed with the handle end of a brush that had been sharpened to a point. As the tracks were exposed, each one was measured and documented as to their size and position in relation to each other. The dirt that was removed from the top of the tracks was sifted and examined for fossils. Evolutionists accuse Dr. Baugh and his team of "carving" the tracks. Here are the reasons why this could not be the case: (1) The dig is open to anyone who wishes to sign up, and skeptics are invited to participate. Often families with children participate. (2) Whenever a new track is found, the uncovering of the track is documented by videotape. (3) Many people participate in the dig, so that there are many eyewitnesses. (4) Each track is excavated by several people as a team. (5) Potential tracks are eliminated from consideration if there are no or few identifying features, such as a heel, toes, push-up marks. (6) Many of the locals from Glen Rose participate in all of the digs, and provide additional consistent verification. We were instructed to not call a track "human" unless it exhibited unmistakable human characteristics, such as toes or an arch. Unfortunately, these features are subject to erosion, and such a find at the Paluxy is quite rare. Several of the best tracks are on display at the Creation Evidence Museum, and the Beverly track (named for Carl Baugh's daughter), is one of the best. It is a human impression inside of a dinosaur track, and the human impression shows all of the toes. This track was found at the dig site during an earlier excavation, and the purpose of the excavation was to see if more tracks of that trail could be found. Another similar track was found on the Taylor trail, in the middle of the river bed about a half-mile from the dig site. Another criteria that strengthens the case for a track to be human would be to find it in a sequence of other tracks, and for it to match a human stride. The Taylor trail fits this criteria. The track we found at the dig site did not have these features, and would not help our case, unless it is found to be one of a sequence yet to be established. We interviewed participants from the previous dig where the "Beverly" track was excavated, and were shown the spot where the track was cut out of the rock strata. They verified that the same careful excavation methods used in the present dig were followed during the excavation of the "Beverly" track. Quasi-human tracks actually are quite common at the Paluxy. At the Moss crossing, the Dougherty trail is found next to a good trail of dinosaur tracks, and if you wade out into the river, you can put your feet in them and find that the fit is pretty good. But because these have been exposed for a number of years, the toe features have been eroded away, leaving only heel prints. You can also find quite a few poorly-defined quasi-human tracks at Dinosaur Valley State Park, at the spot where you can cross the river on stepping stones. After you cross the river, the tracks are just to the left of where the excavation of several dinosaur prints is roped off. In-situ tracks quickly erode once they are exposed, so researchers, when they find a good track, try to cut it out of the rock, document its position, and preserve it that way. Of course, if this is done, an evolutionist can always say that it was carved, or the documentation was staged, or whatever. But the abundance of quasi-human tracks, in my mind, actually strengthens our position, because that is what you would expect to find if they are real, especially if the people who made these tracks wore moccasins or shoes. We created an experiment where we laid down some mud, created some fresh tracks, and documented how they looked. Even in these fresh tracks, very few of them showed the toes, and many of the tracks after they dried, collapsed and became featureless. Those participating in Dr. Baugh's dig can testify that nobody at the dig site is "carving" the tracks, as is the nonsense perpetuated by some evolutionists. We have too many eyewitnesses verifying the dig technique that will tell you that is not true. We watched ten new dinosaur tracks emerge from underneath one foot of overlying rock, observed the technique by which they were revealed, and videotaped the procedure. Since we interviewed eyewitnesses by video, testifying that the same procedure was used in excavating the tracks exhibited in the museum, we would say that was strong evidence that the Beverly track, the Taylor trail tracks and others like it were not fabricated. So, would an evolutionist accuse Dr. Baugh of carving the tracks, covering them with dirt and a six-inch layer of limestone, only to be rediscovered again by creationists digging them up? Or would they accuse Dr. Baugh of carving the tracks, especially since he did very little of the excavation work himself? Hardly likely. Investigations of the Taylor trail by evolutionists concluded a number of years ago that the tracks thought to be human were actually dinosaur tracks. However, the local Texans we interviewed, who know these tracks, say that they have changed in appearance over time, and that might be what you would expect if a human trail actually stepped into dinosaur tracks for a short distance, making a human impression on top of the dinosaur track. In such a case, as the track erodes, the human impression would give way to the dinosaur track. It was this problem that caused the Institute for Creation Research and Answers in Genesis to qualify their support for these track being human, basically because the human impressions have eroded to the point that they are not recognizable. But it is in error to say that they have abandoned their support for these tracks. This particular dig involved the participation of an Answers in Genesis geologist, and it was his wife that excavated the quasi-human track. One of the locals, Dave Hall, took our group wading in the river looking for the Taylor trail. This trail is normally exposed at this time of year, but it was a wet summer, and the tracks were covered with silt and one to three feet of water. No photographs of the trail were possible, but the group's encounter with a water moccasin was quite memorable and you can watch it on video. Also, visit the photo gallery of the dig. Our conclusion is that the claim for a human origin of the tracks is reasonable to believe. For the creationist, this will never be Class "A" evidence, beyond controversy. None of the tracks we saw in situ would have been incontrovertible evidence that would persuade any die-hard evolutionist. But the circumstantial evidence is compelling to those of us who already are convinced of the young-earth creationist model. We anticipate that further efforts by new digs with Dr. Baugh and other groups will find additional evidence at the Paluxy River.
So, if one is following the scientific method the question is, "What does the evidence tell us?," and not an automatic assumption that it is fraudulent or confirms some other belief. I repeat is always, always, always, to the objective investigator, "WHAT DOES THE EVIDENCE TELL US?" And as we have seen in climate science, a healthy dose of skepticism needs to be applied to both supporting and contrary results.
It would have needed to happen about 400 times.
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This is consistent with the Toba catastrophe theory that suggests that a bottleneck of the human population occurred c. 70,000 years ago, proposing that the human population was reduced to perhaps 15,000 individuals[4] when the Toba supervolcano in Indonesia erupted and triggered a major environmental change. The theory is based on geological evidences of sudden climate change and on coalescence evidences of some genes (including mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosome and some nuclear genes)[5] and the relatively low level of genetic variation with humans.[4] However, such coalescence is genetically expected and does not, in itself, indicate a population bottleneck, because mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA are only a small part of the entire genome, and are atypical in that they are inherited exclusively through the mother or through the father, respectively. Most genes in the genome are inherited from either father or mother, and thus can be traced back in time via either matrilineal or patrilineal ancestry.[6] Research on many genes finds different coalescence points from 2 million years ago to 60,000 years ago when different genes are considered, thus disproving the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e., a single breeding pair).[4][7] On the other hand, in 2000, a Molecular Biology and Evolution paper suggested a transplanting model or a 'long bottleneck' to account for the limited genetic variation, rather than a catastrophic environmental change.[8] This would be consistent with suggestions that in sub-Saharan Africa numbers could have dropped at times as low as 2,000, for perhaps as long as 100,000 years, before numbers began to expand again in the Late Stone Age.[9]
Nuclear wars tend to do that. And yes I think it entirely possible there as been more than one near extinction event. One of the more popular theories on the rise of agriculture, called the Hilly Flanks Theory, posits that the climate zone of the hilly shoulders of the mountains of the Middle East were ideal for the rise of agriculture. However, my own thought, is that they would also be the most survivable zone following a nuclear war. In a nutshell the Hilly Flanks theory of Robert Braidwood argues that the conditions on the hilly flanks of the mountains got sufficient rainfall and offered a more temperate climate than the regions around. Lower down it was hot and dry, thus requiring irrigation that had not yet been developed, and higher up it was too cold and too dry. My point is that in an environment following a nuclear war up high people would be exposed to more hard radiation in the atmosphere, and down low the accumulated radioactive runoff would make the valleys hot zones. It would be the hilly flanks that would be best flushed by rainfall and still have enough atmosphere above to shield from the combination of high ambient atmospheric radiation combined with solar and cosmic radiation. So, the hilly flanks would be the most survivable and likely produce the fewest dead end mutations. So, I would suggest that Braidwood was right, but for the wrong reasons. In a post nuclear war environment the hilly flanks would have the least hard radiation as spring runoff would carry a lot of it into the valleys and so by the flushing of the rain there would be less, not eliminated but less, radiation to contend with.
HERETIC! Here you are preaching catastrophism. Just because the evidence points out repeated planetary catastrophes is no reason to ignore what all of the academics have written. Word!
I can hardly say the word but am convinced of its geologic truth. At least in the arid south west.
Yes. The problem is that some people treat their pet theories as absolutes and, "Evidence be damned!" It is like the I can hardly say the word but am convinced of its geologic truth. At least in the arid south west. As much as the Uniformitarians kick and scream the mounting evidence supports catastrophism as a geologic reality. Of course they really don't like going there for a variety of reasons. Atlantis (or Poseidia as some name it) is one of them. The existence of a Mid-Atlantic Island-Continent ca. 10,000 to 11,500 B.C. presents a real problem for lamestream academics because to admit its existence destroys much of the theory that has built up since the late 1800s e.g., Darwin, Darwin, Darwin, Leakey, and Hutton. It would force a complete reevaluation of what we know about human history and theories of prehistory.
Ping. A discussion you might enjoy.
And indisputibly in the Washington Oregon massive erosion of 20,000 ago.
Yes there are huge areas up here that were coated in magma and detritus from several massive volcanic events. That was compounded by the breaking of the Great Missoula Ice Dam ca. 10,000 B.C. which unleashed a wall of water a couple of hundred feet high that scoured the Columbia River Gorge and created what is known as the "Scab Lands" in Southern Washington State where the waters, and the junk they propelled, blasted the landscape into almost a lunar surface. Although today some of those Scab Land desert lakes are mighty good fishing.
One of the more under reported stories of the last 15,000 years.
Well for gosh sakes lets not change anything - I don't want a herd of people trapsing into those lakes and ruining the fishing. ;-) Seriously though that time frame of 10,000 - 11,500 B.C. is interesting on a lot of levels. There seems to have been a great deal of activity on the planet's surface at that time. Reason unknown. However, just off the top of my head: The climate changed on the Giza Plateau from wet and hot to dry and hot. We can tell it was wet by signs of water erosion among other things. The great wall at Gibraltar which kept the ocean out of the Mediterranean Valley collapsed and thus put the entire below sea level valley under water. There are ruins on the ocean floor that go below the water level, considerably, of the biblical era. Divers have seen roads as deep as two hundred feet that continue on even deeper. Of course this is the time frame that Atlantis is alleged to have sank and seems to coincide with the inundation of the legendary Albion of English lore. The Great Missoula Ice Dam broke. Interestingly about the same time there appeared to be a great tidal wave which swept thousands of Mastodons to their death into a frozen realm. The tusks of those carcasses supplied Billiard Balls and Piano Keys to Victorian England. At about that same time point, which geologically is the beginning, more or less, of our current Holocene era, or at the end of the Pleistocene - take your pick, many of the world's major mountain chains experienced rapid uplifts. We know that Tiahuanaco, on the Altiplano near Lake Titicaca in Peru, was once at sea level because of the massive stone wharves and canals that apparently connected across the continent from sea to sea. The Gobi Desert was once a sea, but was upthrust about 3,000 feet, drained of its water, and is now a very dry land. I imagine that there are other anomalies in that time period as well, but I have not made an exhaustive study of it. The point being that something massive and catastrophic appears to have occurred planet wide at that junction in time.
Thank you. : ) I've been watching that Ancient Alien series and every single scrap of "evidence" is piled on to the aliens having done all that they find or offering substantial assistance. Never is it even considered that humans could have ever been more intelligent or more spiritual than they are now. The limitation is our own mind ad nauseum even beyond those who try to make it all fit into a silly 6000 year time frame. They speculate continually on what great uncovered works were for.....but only in a small vision that supports the greater ancient alien theory. What if we simply do not know what we are or what we are capable of doing? That never fits into the theory.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
That is what the PTB behind the scenes are afraid of - that people will actually begin to realize how powerful they truly are. Most people today operate at a small fraction of their true capabilities, both physical and, more importantly, as spiritual beings. That makes the monsters behind the curtain tremble in fear. That they want desperately to keep those facts hidden behind their wall of lies and misinformation. Historically speaking 6,000 years is but the blink of an eye. Mankind has been on this world alone for at least several hundred thousands of years and likely millions, and by that I mean anatomically modern "man" as we know him or her today. Plato, speaking of Solon in the Tinnaeus and Critias Dialogues, quotes Solon as saying that the Egyptian Priests told him that they, at that time, had records running back 100,000 years. Taking that to be true that means that there was a literate culture at least 100,000 years ago which then implies a preliterate culture dating back much further.
Mankind has been on this world alone for at least several hundred thousands of years and likely millions, and by that I mean anatomically modern "man" as we know him or her today. It amazes me that so many people refuse to even ponder the notion.....yet, we only use a fraction of our brains, our religions have basically done an excellent job at suppression of the notion of a soul within, the level of consciousness within humanity barely rises to mud puddle. But, it could be more vast than the ocean. Fear reduces the vibration......which is why it is pushed endlessly. The oldest and most accurate time keeping does so on a long count. We move in ages. There is evidence all around of a highly sophisticated and great civilization that predated this one. In ancient aliens, they say aliens had to do all of it with no evidence of this. Remember that Egyptians and Sumerians had worked quite hard on communication with the dead......if they succeeded, imagine the knowledge they would attain. Imagining a world where humans actually lived in a higher state of consciousness opens so many doors. In our world today, humans are so disconnected with our inner beings and the earth that sustains the lot of us. Sometimes, it just boggles my mind, but it also explains how humanity is so easily duped into thinking THIS is the greatest level of attainment ever and that humans today are the most "evolved" while evidence of a regression to more base states abounds.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
An excellent, even handed dissertation/thesis. It should earn you a bachelor's degree in Reason Versus Bullshit In The 21st Century if such a degree was available. For reasons which you are obviously aware, it isn't. My compliments.
I thank you for kind words worthy sir. The foot print was bad enough, but the tire tracks they are keeping under wraps they found nearby really has them in a tizzy.
Funnie! By the way, did you know that the British govt was in business with John De Lorean, and when he was on trial for what eventually became a classic case of govt entrapment the British dumped the body dies for the now immortal in film (Back To The Future) DMC-12 into the sea? Despite the law requiring that spare parts must be available for cars for as long as 20 years the Limeys dumped them so the company couldn't be resurrected. When De Lorean was exonerated without calling a single witness the Brits looked like the reactionary snobs they truly are. Even though the car company was already failing by then the dumping of those dies was a crime. Replacement dies would be cost prohibitive because there will never be enough demand for (stainless steel) body parts to offset the cost of manufacturing them again. Here are the dies being readied as anchors to secure the nets that form the boundaries of a fish farm in Ards Bay. In the above photo, "you can clearly see the outline of the gullwing door stamping die (green arrow)" (not my words-found at link below) Details from an insider here. All websites that once had video of the dumping have been sanitized. The popularity of the BTTF films would no doubt result in millions of kids slamming those down low closet queen Brits ("England is a fag country"-Archie Bunker) for that really screwed up decision.
A curious demise of a classic automobile body template. They were insane to do this.
Human Devolution: A Vedic Alternative to Darwin's Theory, by Michael Cremo. In shortest way present the idea that human beings did not evolve up from matter; instead we devolved, or came down, from the realm of pure consciousness, spirit. Cremo tries to tide in new way science and religion into a cohesive paradigm of reality. What you will find in a book? Answers on some Qn What is man? by Cremo its ordinary matter + mind + consciousness. And main conclusion is: man is degraded from pure consciousness, to mind, to material body. What is human body? Human body is a vehicle for a conscious self, and the proper use of the vehicle is to bring the conscious self back to its original position in a realm of pure consciousness, where spiritual human forms have always existed beyond time. That is our original home. When we depart from there, the conscious self is covered by a material form, a body. That covering process is what Cremo calls exactly devolution. But the process can be reversed, and the conscious self can be freed of its coverings and restored to its original pure state. That process he calls re-evolution. Every genuine wisdom tradition in the world has some means for accomplishing that, some method of prayer or meditation or yoga “We” human existed billions – not thousand years ago. That is most solid part of the book. Cremo talks about actually incredible amounts of neglected evidences. So here I will just call out 3 of them: - The oldest artifacts go back about 2 billion years. These are round metallic objects that have been over the past couple of decades by miners in South Africa. The objects come from a mine near a place called Ottosdalin, in the West Transvaal region. The objects are one or two inches in diameter. The ones we had analyzed by metallurgists turned out to be made of an iron ore called hematite. The most interesting feature of the objects is the parallel grooves that go around the center of each one. Some have four grooves, some three, some two, some only one. The metallurgists who examined them said they were not produced naturally. Therefore, the objects must have been manufactured by someone with humanlike intelligence. Yet they are found solidly embedded in mineral deposits over 2 billion years old. - The Laetoli footprints were found in layers of solidified volcanic ash, dated by the potassium-argon method as being about 3.7 million years old. BUT - Ttere are footprints and even shoe prints that go much further back in time than that. For example, the shoe print found by William Meister near Antelope Springs, Utah, goes back about 500 million years (hard to imagine). The Laetoli footprints are still quite interesting as the footprints are exactly like those of modern human beings. This is unusual, because according to most scientists today, human beings capable of making these footprints did not come into existence until about 100,000 years ago. - full modern skeletons - Italian geologist Giuseppe Ragazzoni discovered anatomically modern human skeletal remains in Pliocene formations at a place called Castenedolo in northern Italy. The Pliocene goes from about 2 million years ago to 5 million years ago. Cremo calls also other such discoveries from other parts of the world. How we can be sure there is more than current living and current consciousness? The book leads through evidences of spiritual realities and scientific experiments and facts which carefully document supernatural phenomena, including various forms of spiritism, miracles such as those at Lourdes, reincarnation claims, UFO phenomena and intelligent design arguments. So you can find in here as well “reported” and categorized to some level proofs of us being much more than we think. Again – interesting reading Why he takes Vedic as a base for explanation? Somehow indeed there is many parallels. At least in the one that Cremo picked up for comparison. Sanskrit writings of India takes human presence that goes back about 2 billion years on earth. Current textbooks on archeology, does not carry that evidence. But Cremo found that over the past 150 years archeologists have discovered huge amounts of evidence, in the form of human skeletal remains, human footprints, and human artifacts tens of millions, even hundreds of millions of years old, going all the way back to about 2 billion years. Of course again a matter of trust in scientific periodic he recalls in his book.. How we can explain other humanoids skeleton found? The base for explanation is again Vedic. It speaks of 400,000 human like species scattered throughout the universe. According to Cremo various hominids, such as the australopithecs, could be placed among those 400,000 species. Why they appeared? - idea is they were designed as vehicles for conscious selves. “Today, we see that auto manufacturers design and build many different kinds of vehicles of different types and sizes and prices for people of different tastes, needs, and purchasing power. So the "intelligent designer" does the same thing: designs and builds various kinds of bodies for conscious selves with different desires and karmas” How does the age of the earth and the existence of life on it correspond to the Hindu cosmological calendar? The Hindu, or Vedic, concept of time is cyclical. There are cycles within cycles within cycles. The basic unit of this cyclical time is called the day of Brahma. It lasts about 4.3 billion years. It's followed by a night of Brahma, which also lasts about 4.3 billion years. The days follow the nights endlessly in succession. During the days, life is manifested in the universe, and during the nights it's dormant. The current day of Brahma, the one we are in now, began about 2 billion years ago. So by this account, we should expect to see signs of life, including human life, going back about 2 billion years on earth. Cremo quotes simply that the oldest undisputed fossil evidence for life on earth recognized by paleontologists is also about 2 billion years old. We're talking about the oldest undisputed fossils of single celled life forms. The age of earth vs. Vedic Modern geologists give the earth an age of about 6 billion years. Vedic conception of the universe gives the conscious self a temporary domain of experience, apart from the eternal domain of the realm of pure consciousness, or spirit. Under this conception, Cremo takes the earth, our particular domain of experience, as “being somewhat like a rewritable CD or DVD disk. It's erased at the end of each day of Brahma”. All the geological and paleontological evidence that was written on the disc. Then comes a night of Brahma, during which the disk is reprogrammed. Geological information is written on the disk. The night of Brahma lasts 4.3 billion years. Then comes the next day of Brahma. And then biological evidence starts to get written on the disk. And we are now 2 billion years into the day of Brahma. So when we look at the evidence, Cremos shows we find geological evidence that the earth has existed for about 6 billion years, and biological evidence, in the form of fossils, showing that life has existed for about 2 billion years. Also, the day of Brahma is divided into 14 sub cycles called manvantara periods, each lasting about 300 million years. Between each one there is a devastation, after which the earth has to be repopulated. We are now in the seventh manvantara cycle, and that means there have been six devestations over the past 2 billion years. Modern paleontology also tells us that the history of life on earth has been interrupted by six major extinction events, spaced at intervals of hundreds of millions of years, the last being the one that wiped out the dinosaurs about 65 million years ago. What happens during the "night of Brahma" when the earth is "unmanifest"? The various living entities are put into a state of dormancy or suspended animation, something like dreamless sleep. One of claims of Hindu is that world is created and destroyed countless times. By Cremo energy can never be destroyed, so just moves into a different dimension and becomes "unmanifested” In Vedic cosmology we have pradhana, which is the unmanifest, undifferentiated material energy. During the creation cycles, this unmanifest material energy becomes differentiated into elements, starting with the more subtle elements and proceeding to the grosser elements. Then the differentiated elements are manifested into the forms of planets and bodies, which serve as domains and vehicles, respectively, for conscious selves. In the current day of Brahma, humankind goes back 2 billion years. In each day of Brahma, in each life of Brahma, not only in this universe, but in countless other universes, the human form has been manifest for vast periods of time. . So to summarize - What I liked is that the book definitely exposes the weaknesses in Darwinism and relates the tradition doctrine. And its doing in compelling and attractive way being solid grounded on scientifically recalled evidences or existing already learnings (both when it comes to archeology, reports of spiritual events, Vedic texts)/ It has big potential in impacting on the dominant materialist and religious paradigms , enabling finally for more perspective....as long it would be introduced to larger scale :]. Maybe we shall start lobbying for placing some books / ideas at school level, otherwise it will take another “ages” to stimulate human thinking to new level?... If so i would put this book definitely on the lobbied list.
It is vital to understand that there is no truth without discernment and no wisdom without the truth. What then is “faith” but an effort to confound truth and wisdom?
The most intriguing, for me, was the find in the Grand Canyon around the turn of the last century. An explorer found a cave system which supposedly had Egyptian artifacts in great quantity. The Smithsonian mounted an expedition, which was reported on by the local newspaper - The Arizona Gazette if I recall correctly - which chronicled their taking away several boxcar loads of artifacts from the site. They have never been seen again and if you ask the Smithsonian about them today they will deny that it ever happened.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#28. To: Shoonra, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, christine (#25)
#29. To: FormerLurker, Pinguinite (#26)
Could you source this confident assertion please?
#30. To: Critter (#3)
Starting with two original ancestors, it would take 4,400 years to arrive at today's population, using historical population growth rates.
#31. To: Original_Intent (#8)
(Edited)
The FARO RESERVE BANK!!! 
#32. To: Critter (#3)
I just finished reading Origins, by Phillip Day.
#33. To: James Deffenbach (#32)
We are not allowed to make a decision as mundane as what kind of lightbulb we're going to use anymore, but we're allowed to choose who runs the city, state, and fedgoob? Give me a break. - Esso
#34. To: Critter (#33)
The funny thing about this book is that I could not find it for sale anywhere in the USA. I had to buy it from a UK bookseller.
#35. To: HOUNDDAWG (#30)
That may seem logical but what about extinction level events
We are not allowed to make a decision as mundane as what kind of lightbulb we're going to use anymore, but we're allowed to choose who runs the city, state, and fedgoob? Give me a break. - Esso
#36. To: James Deffenbach (#34)
We are not allowed to make a decision as mundane as what kind of lightbulb we're going to use anymore, but we're allowed to choose who runs the city, state, and fedgoob? Give me a break. - Esso
#37. To: Critter (#36)
#38. To: HOUNDDAWG (#29)
(Edited)
#39. To: HOUNDDAWG (#29)
#40. To: Original_Intent (#21)
#41. To: Pinguinite (#39)
#42. To: Critter, Original_Intent (#3)
#43. To: Original_Intent (#12)
The Smithsonian is not a reliable source as they have been caught retouching and "disappearing" unusual finds that contradict the "official story". The Smithsonian is funded by, and was begun by, the Robber Baron's to further their own ends and their preferred story for public consumption.
#44. To: HOUNDDAWG, Shoonra, wudidiz, Coral Snake, Pinguinite, all (#0)
(Edited)
#45. To: Original_Intent (#44)
Of course the real application of the Scientific Method is to examine the evidence, and attempt to see what the evidence tells you without preconceptions of what it has to mean, or that if it does not agree with established theory it is, of course, a fraud.
#46. To: farmfriend (#42)
DNA tests have shown that at one point human populations were reduced to near extinction. Who is to say it didn't happen more than once?
We are not allowed to make a decision as mundane as what kind of lightbulb we're going to use anymore, but we're allowed to choose who runs the city, state, and fedgoob? Give me a break. - Esso
#47. To: Critter (#46)
It would have needed to happen about 400 times.
Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins has postulated that human mitochondrial DNA (inherited only from one's mother) and Y chromosome DNA (from one's father) show coalescence at around 140,000 and 60,000 years ago, respectively. In other words, all living humans' female line ancestry can be traced back to a single female (Mitochondrial Eve) at around 140,000 years ago. Via the male line, all humans can trace their ancestry back to a single male (Y-chromosomal Adam) at around 60,000 to 90,000 years ago.[3]
#48. To: farmfriend (#42)
DNA tests have shown that at one point human populations were reduced to near extinction. Who is to say it didn't happen more than once?
#49. To: farmfriend (#47)
#50. To: Original_Intent (#49)
Here you are preaching catastrophism.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#51. To: farmfriend (#45)
And as we have seen in climate science, a healthy dose of skepticism needs to be applied to both supporting and contrary results.
Skeptical Septical Enquirer crowd - anything which does not conform with previously accepted theory is by definition "kookery".
#52. To: tom007 (#50)
Here you are preaching catastrophism.
#53. To: abraxas (#48)
#54. To: All (#50)
At least in the arid south west.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#55. To: tom007 (#54)
#56. To: Original_Intent (#55)
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#57. To: tom007 (#56)
One of the more under reported stories of the last 15,000 years.
#58. To: Original_Intent (#53)
#59. To: abraxas (#58)
What if we simply do not know what we are or what we are capable of doing? That never fits into the theory.
The limitation is our own mind ad nauseum even beyond those who try to make it all fit into a silly 6000 year time frame.
#60. To: Original_Intent (#59)
hat people will actually begin to realize how powerful they truly are. Most people today operate at a small fraction of their true capabilities, both physical and, more importantly, as spiritual beings. That makes the monsters behind the curtain tremble in fear.
#61. To: Original_Intent (#44)
#62. To: HOUNDDAWG (#61)
#63. To: HOUNDDAWG (#0)
#64. To: Ferret (#63)
The foot print was bad enough, but the tire tracks they are keeping under wraps they found nearby really has them in a tizzy.
#65. To: HOUNDDAWG (#64)
#66. To: Original_Intent (#44)
Again I am NOT a "Young Earth Creationist", but do believe that there is a motive force of a non-material nature which drives the engine called creation, and evolution. As a side issue I believe the physical universe is likely much much older than any dare publicly posit and that "creation" is an event that has been repeated over and over down the course of the trilennia.
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