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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Robert Bales – Lone Nut or Scapegoat?
Source: ANTIWAR.com
URL Source: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/ ... t-bales-lone-nut-or-scapegoat/
Published: Mar 26, 2012
Author: Justin Raimondo
Post Date: 2012-03-26 02:18:31 by Original_Intent
Keywords: PsyOp, Lone Nut, murder, spree
Views: 515
Comments: 45

The murder of 17 Afghan civilians – most of them children – by staff sergeant Robert Bales may be far worse than we think at present. The semi-official story, as related by our compliant news media, is that a formerly model soldier went bananas under the pressure of war-related injuries, financial problems at home, and the all-purpose PTSD explanation for military misbehavior, whereupon he decided – at 3 am in the morning, after drinking with his army buddies – to walk the couple of miles to an Afghan village, shoot 16 people sleeping in their beds, pile the bodies atop a funeral pyre and set the whole thing alight.

How did he get out of the base at 3 am unchallenged and without anyone’s knowledge? How did he manage to do so much damage alone? These questions automatically register in the minimally critical mind – unless, of course, you’re an American reporter, who is quite used to accepting what our government tells us without question. On the other hand, without clear evidence of another – darker – scenario, all one can do is engage in problematic speculation. That problem has been solved, however, because evidence of an alternative explanation is now coming to light which throws the whole "lone nut" theory into question.

A few days before Bales went postal, there was a bomb attack on a US convoy in which a friend of Bales’s lost a leg: Bales’s lawyer has been detailing his client’s anger at this incident, implying it precipitated the murder spree. There are indications, however, that this is not the whole story. One local resident relates how the Americans paid a visit to the village where the killings took place and threatened residents with retaliation:

"Ghulam Rasool, a tribal elder from Panjwai district, gave an account of the bombing at a March 16 meeting in Kabul with Mr Karzai in the wake of the shootings. ‘After the incident, they took the wreckage of their destroyed tank and their wounded people from the area," Mr Rasool said. ‘After that, they came back to the village nearby the explosion site. The soldiers called all the people to come out of their houses and from the mosque,’ he said. ‘The Americans told the villagers ‘A bomb exploded on our vehicle. … We will get revenge for this incident by killing at least 20 of your people,’ Mr Rasool said."

So there was a direct threat, and not specifically from Bales but from an organized group of American soldiers presumably under the command of US army officers. Even more sinister is this report from the Christian Science Monitor:

"Several Afghans near the villages where an American soldier is alleged to have killed 16 civilians say U.S. troops lined them up against a wall after a roadside bombing and told them that they, and even their children, would pay a price for the attack.

"…One Mokhoyan resident, Ahmad Shah Khan, told The Associated Press that after the bombing, U.S. soldiers and their Afghan army counterparts arrived in his village and made many of the male villagers stand against a wall.

"’It looked like they were going to shoot us, and I was very afraid,’ Khan said. ‘Then a NATO soldier said through his translator that even our children will pay for this. Now they have done it and taken their revenge.’"

Another resident of Mokhoyan, Naek Mohammad, says that on the day of the IED attack he heard a loud explosion, went outside to investigate, and spoke with a neighbor. As they spoke, a group of Afghan army soldiers rounded them up and stood them against a wall. Mohammad says:

"’One of the villagers asked what was happening. The Afghan army soldier told him, ‘Shut up and stand there.’ Mohammad said a U.S. soldier, speaking through a translator, then said: ‘I know you are all involved and you support the insurgents. So now, you will pay for it — you and your children will pay for this.’"

Bales murdered 17 civilians, half of them children sleeping in their bed.

The Afghan parliament is investigating, and they aren’t buying the Americans’ story of a "lone nut." Nor is President Hamid Karzai:

"In an emotional meeting with relatives of the shooting victims, Karzai said the villagers’ accounts of the massacre were widely different from the scenario depicted by U.S. military officials. The relatives and villagers insisted that it was impossible for one gunmen to kill nine children, four men and three women in three houses of two villages near a U.S. combat outpost in southern Afghanistan.

"Karzai pointed to one of the villagers from Panjwai district of Kandahar province and said:

"’In his family, in four rooms people were killed — children and women were killed — and then they were all brought together in one room and then set on fire. That, one man cannot do.’

"Karzai said the delegation he sent to Kandahar province to investigate the shootings did not receive the expected co-operation from the United States. He said many questions remained about what occurred, and he would be raising the questions with the U.S. military ‘very loudly.’"

The infamous "night raids" carried out by US troops have been a source of contention between Karzai and the Americans. As one commentator described them:

"The method employed is simple: Identify those who provide financial support or protection to the militants. And those who even have sympathies with them. Constitute teams which would go to the houses so identified, knock at the door and as soon as the wanted man appears, shoot him dead. At times a substitute is killed who may be a guest in the house but was unlucky to greet the intruders at the door. On an average about 50 night raids take place daily. And every night about 25 people are killed in cold blood in different parts of the country."

This is the "new" counterinsurgency doctrine – which is supposed to win "hearts and minds" – in practice: a program of systematic terror designed to dry up support for the Taliban by driving up the costs of collaborating with them. One may credibly argue it isn’t working, but this question seems beside the point: such a murderous strategy mandates the commission of war crimes. Whether it is "working" or not is irrelevant.

Another suspicious aspect of this whole affair is the extraordinary aura of secrecy surrounding it. The Pentagon kept Bales’s identity under wraps as long as it could, unlike in the case of, say, Major Hasan, the Ft. Hood shooter, whose name was out there almost as soon as the news hit the wires. In addition, they have treated Bales as if he were a cache of radioactive material, keeping him in complete isolation after spiriting him out of Afghanistan to Kuwait – without having notified the Kuwaitis – where his presence caused consternation and protests from the local authorities when it was discovered. He was soon back in the US, greeted by a cascade of sympathetic accounts in the media detailing his battlefield injuries, his "patriotic" persona, his alleged PTSD, and his myriad financial problems. As of this writing, he has been charged with 17 counts of murder: apparently the initial count of the dead was wrong.

The Afghans say the US military has been less than cooperative with the parliamentary investigation, and the Afghan chief of staff claims he was refused permission to see Bales. All of this has led to an outcry in Afghanistan, where the local are saying this was an organized revenge killing rather than Sergeant Psycho on a rampage. Which raises an intriguing question: organized by whom?

It seems to me there are two possibilities:

1) This was the result of a "rogue" group of soldiers acting on their own, motivated by the previous IED attack. Reports that Bales was drinking with a group of other soldiers the night of the massacre conjure images of a late-night venting climaxed by a senseless act of terror.

2) It was a "night raid" gone horribly wrong. This is suggested by the fact that the "official" story of what happened that night limns these night raids to a tee, except for the number of military personnel involved. And Karzai has a point: it is certainly possible Bales went to two residences, killed 16 women and children, and then gathered up the bodies and burned them in the space of a couple of hours, with no assistance from anyone — but how likely is it? About as likely as Bales’s claim not to remember anything of that night.

What is striking is how seamlessly these two scenarios blend into each other: even if this heinous crime was carried out by a "rogue" group of soldiers, how different is it from those night raids where they are acting under orders? The direct threats issued to the villagers, however, points to the possibility that they were acting with the knowledge of at least some higher-ups, who must have authorized the round-up, the use of a translator, and even the participation of the Afghan army.

What is worrying is that the numerous reports coming out of Afghanistan of rampant war crimes committed by "rogue" soldiers – "kill teams" – indicates a complete breakdown of the US chain of command. At the top of the command structure, the grand strategists and theoreticians are constructing elaborate theories of counterinsurgency warfare designed to win over the populace and deny the Taliban a victory. However, by the time "clear, hold, and build" trickles down to the ranks in the field, it becomes "clear, hold, and kill."

The reason is because no theory of counterinsurgency warfare, no strategy — no matter how clever — can win the hearts and minds of an occupied people. We can clear the Taliban out of a district, and even hold it with enough troops, but all we are building, in the end, is resentment and hatred of our presence.

The villagers are saying this was an act of revenge, but doesn’t that accurately describe the entire Afghan campaign in a nutshell? Short of actually getting Osama bin Laden at the outset of the invasion, revenge for the 9/11 attacks was clearly the reason we stayed after the battle of Tora Bora. The thin pretext given by the Bush administration — and, subsequently, the Obama administration – was that we had to stay in order to deprive al-Qaeda of a "safe haven." When it was discovered al-Qaeda was no longer around, the War Party turned to its fallback position: we can’t leave, they said, because the real "safe haven" is in Pakistan, and we need to guard the Afghan-Pakistan border to not only prevent the terrorists’ return but also to strike at them in their newfound lair.

The latest massacre has put the administration in a precarious position, not only with our Afghan allies but also with the American public. Story after story of nasty atrocities isn’t helping the battle for hearts and minds on the home front: polls show most Americans want out sooner rather than later. A deluge of sympathetic stories about the accused killer isn’t going to change this. What remains to be seen, however, is how this crime is going to be investigated – or not investigated – by the US military. If the testimony of the villagers contradicting the "lone nut" theory continues to be ignored by the Americans, we’ll know a cover up is in progress.

Read more by Justin Raimondo


Poster Comment:

Lone nut, or lone patsy?

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#5. To: Original_Intent (#2)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

—Samuel Adams

America: Israel's Handmaiden

Eric Stratton  posted on  2012-03-26   8:16:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Original_Intent, Esso, Phant2000 (#2)

War or no War slaughtering women and children are not the actions of an honorable man or honorable nation.

There is NO excuse. These are the actions of barbarians

You and I know that, however there is but one rule in war time, KILL OR BE KILLED.

IN this endless war there is no defined enemy, a man wearing a uniform, that is missing. We say nothing, there is no recrimination from us when dozens of people are killed by a man thousands of miles away, they call it collateral damage when innocents are blown away. Not a word, we are so silent, yet the innocents are still dead.

When the drone pilot, the man that pushed the button, finishes his day of "work" he goes home to dinner with his family and WE SAY NOTHING. He is at home 7000 miles from the war, no pressure, a happy and rewarded life.

Now the man that has spent...FOUR LONG YEARS ON THE GROUND...KILLING AND AVOIDING BEING KILLED...finally can take it no longer and slaughters people.

What right have we, that have not been there, those four long years, to hold that man up to standards that we have NEVER HAD TO MEET, Go back to My Lia, UNTOLD DOZENS WERE SLAUGHTERED.

The men that actually did the killing, pulled the triggers, never went to prison.

It is war, we hire these men, we pay them, so that our children and grand children may stay safe at home.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   9:08:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Cynicom (#6)

What right have we, that have not been there, those four long years, to hold that man up to standards that we have NEVER HAD TO MEET ...

Very well put. However, too few will understand or even take the time to comprehend your words.

Phant2000  posted on  2012-03-26   11:35:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Cynicom, 4 (#6)

You and I know that, however there is but one rule in war time, KILL OR BE KILLED.

IN this endless war there is no defined enemy, a man wearing a uniform, that is missing. We say nothing, there is no recrimination from us when dozens of people are killed by a man thousands of miles away, they call it collateral damage when innocents are blown away. Not a word, we are so silent, yet the innocents are still dead.

When the drone pilot, the man that pushed the button, finishes his day of "work" he goes home to dinner with his family and WE SAY NOTHING. He is at home 7000 miles from the war, no pressure, a happy and rewarded life.

Now the man that has spent...FOUR LONG YEARS ON THE GROUND...KILLING AND AVOIDING BEING KILLED...finally can take it no longer and slaughters people.

What right have we, that have not been there, those four long years, to hold that man up to standards that we have NEVER HAD TO MEET, Go back to My Lia, UNTOLD DOZENS WERE SLAUGHTERED

This is why I endorse Paul's isolationist (yes, this is a good word) foreign policy. And should this nation one day be attacked, I'd then support the General Le May solution.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2012-03-26   12:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#4)

Let us take care what sources we quote lest we be led into error.

Prior to the paragraph that predicts the actors and outcome of a Third World War, the purported letter from Pike to Mazzini outlines how a Second World War will come about:

"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."

The Pike letter has been spiked as a fraud by numerous writers. Indeed, the world war predictions are a fraud based on a previous fraud. I won't bore you with the history. You can find it here if you want to slog through it. http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Pike-Mazzini_Three-World-Wars.htm

What caught my eye in this was the word "Nazism." Having read a good deal of German history and literature at one time, I know that this word was not in circulation in the nineteenth century. The term arose in Germany as a perjorative foreshortening of Nationalsozialist perhaps as an answer to the also somewhat perjorative nickname Sozi for Sozialist. In other words, these paragraphs contain at least one wholesale anachronism.

These "war paragraphs' were penned by the writer William Guy Carr who wrote them as his interpretation of what Pike was supposed to have written. The quotes appeared later in other works popularizing the Pike-Mazzini correspondence, and, vay-oh-la, you have latter-day Nostradamus.

I take anything I get from Icke with a heavy grain of salt also.

A people that would and could throw the bums out in the voting booth never has to. - Prefrontal Vortex

randge  posted on  2012-03-26   13:28:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Jethro Tull (#8)

This is why I endorse Paul's isolationist (yes, this is a good word) foreign policy

World Jewry made the term "isolationist" a dirty word way back in the 1930s.

Father Caughlin and Charles Lindbergh paid the price for trying to warn the American people that we were going to be dragged into yet another foreign war.

Half a million American boys paid the price.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   13:33:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Phant2000 (#7)

However, too few will understand

If one reviews these long wars,of all of the horrible incidents that have happened, ALL HAVE COME ABOUT BY THE GRUNTS ON THE GROUND TAKING A CHANCE.

Not one has ever come from the Generals, always the grunts.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   13:37:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Cynicom (#6)

What right have we, that have not been there, those four long years, to hold that man up to standards that we have NEVER HAD TO MEET

It's against the law to kill women and children.

It is war, we hire these men, we pay them, so that our children and grand children may stay safe at home.

Safe from what, Cyni?


"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry

wudidiz  posted on  2012-03-26   14:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: wudidiz (#12)

It's against the law to kill women and children.

Safe from what, Cyni?

wud...

Killing is a moral sin, man has added "legal" definitions that vary in degrees from "justifiable to murder"

In war time the moral sin remains and the justifiable attitude of man prevails. Always, that has never changed.

We train kids to kill or be killed, yet we have no guilt, we pay them to kill, we have no guilt.

Why do we pay them to kill???

Americans long ago decided to HIRE military killers rather than have their sons and grandsons, do it for free.

In my time we did it for free, $72 dollars a month.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   14:43:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#4)

just when i was ready to be a useful idiot....i don't have the answer....just possibly some insight into what's going on.

By informing yourself and no longer playing their game, which you are doing and have done, you cease to play their game, and their plans rely upon gulling the sheepdogs as well as the sheeple. A lone sheepdog may not be able to stand off a pack of wolves but we are getting more and more sheepdogs on board every day. Time has ceased to be on their side and is now on our side. As long as we can stave off total social collapse THEY lose, and THEY are beginning to realize it.

The battle is not yet carried but our banners still stand.

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-26   14:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Cynicom (#6)

You and I know that, however there is but one rule in war time, KILL OR BE KILLED.

Except that your premise is not logically valid. This massacre - this murder, and it was murder most foul, was not conducted in the heat of battle.

Therefore your premise is inappropriate and not connected logically, or ethically, to your argument.

Perhaps I am, as a friend once described, a realist with romantic tendencies, but I actually believe in all of that chivalry stuff. Yes, sometimes one must act to defend others and under those circumstances killing someone may well be ethically demanded, but that was not the case here.

I do not compromise my ethical standards because it was done by "our boys". Our boys know better and they should be held to a higher standard not a lower standard. I do not buy the justifications for criminal behavior and they are just that justifications. They do not validate nor do they sanction these kinds of crimes. I walked the walk too, and I hold these men to the same standards to which I held myself. It is the job of the American Fighting Man to defend the weak, to protect women and children - not to kill them defenseless in the night like some mad dog.

The men that actually did the killing, pulled the triggers, never went to prison.

So, is your argument that because it was a state sanctioned crime it was somehow not a crime?

One always has a choice and if we do not raise our voice against such criminality then we do become complicit.

It is war, we hire these men, we pay them, so that our children and grand children may stay safe at home.

What you mean WE? Got a mouse in your pocket?

I am not paying these men to go kill innocents in foreign lands and their actions are doing nothing in the interests of the American People. At no time have I ever expressed support for wanton killing conducted by the government in the District of Corruption. The men now in uniform are at best a half step above mercenaries who kill only for money, and when they behave as mad dogs then they should be treated as mad dogs - not "poor misguided strays".

Is that the standard by which we wish to judge the actions of our Fighting Men? I think not. Not in any just and noble nation. We have allowed our standards to dip toward a darkness deep past the gutter. I will not accept it now or ever though I be the last voice in opposition.

I do not countenance these actions, I do not sanction these actions, and the guilty should be tried and then hung by the neck until dead.

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-26   15:15:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Cynicom (#10)

Father Caughlin and Charles Lindbergh paid the price for trying to warn the American people that we were going to be dragged into yet another foreign war.

Half a million American boys paid the price.

Right here ^^^^^^ this statement ^^^^^^ so very, very true. Today, so as not to offend the programmed AmeriKANS, I use the word nonINTERVENTIONIST. It's the same meaning, but by using it it removes one less arrow from their snarky arsenal.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2012-03-26   16:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Cynicom (#13)

It looks like the accused was not alone if he had anything to do with it at all.


"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” ~ Patrick Henry

wudidiz  posted on  2012-03-26   16:48:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Cynicom (#6)

It is war, we hire these men, we pay them, so that our children and grand children may stay safe at home.

If atrocities like these continue, it will be OUR children and grandchildren who will be shot in their beds by invading troops from other nations. There is no guarantee of safety for a lawless nation, just as the Nazis and their families found out.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2012-03-26   17:20:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Cynicom (#13)

But honest Injun, Cyni, would you have drilled non-combatants in their beds?

A people that would and could throw the bums out in the voting booth never has to. - Prefrontal Vortex

randge  posted on  2012-03-26   17:21:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Original_Intent, Esso, Phant2000, Jethro Tull (#15)

Except that your premise is not logically valid.

That is a personal opinion, and does not stand the test of wartime reality.

You of all people here understand brain washing and programming.

Given that, there is nothing logical about killing another person. Killing because YOU HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO DO SO AUTOMATICALLY ELIMINATES LOGIC. Add to that prolonged mental and physical stress, we have a candidate for killing. The overwhelming majority do manage to maintain sanity and the moral aversion to killing, A FEW DO NOT.

Those few CANNOT absorb the stress any longer. Eddie Slovik was shot because he refused to kill, he would not stand and fight, kill others, so a self righteous Eisenhower had him shot.

Eisenhower had never one day in his career, faced death, not one, but he made the decision that Slovik must die, because he was weak and WOULD NOT KILL.

Let that be a lesson to American soldiers, kill on command or we will shoot you.

Its called war.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   19:32:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Cynicom (#20)

Let that be a lesson to American soldiers, kill on command or we will shoot you.

Its called war.

I was disappointed at OI's post to you. I hope he now understands your message.

I was visiting at a relative's home many years ago, when a WWII veteran was relating an event during his military service. It took place when the U.S. soldiers liberated France. The description the man gave was of the response of a half dozen U.S. soldiers to their discovery of several German soldiers hiding in the barn of a French family who had been tortured for weeks by the Germans. It was not a comforting story by any stretch of the imagination, but my introduction to the facts of war.

By the way, the aunt and uncle who I was visiting at the time had lost their only son. He had been shot down over Germany during the war. I can only imagine now, after all these years of "growing", how they must have felt as they listened to this man relate his experiences.

My curiosity, and the members of my family lost during war time, prompted me to spend years reading what was published by diverse former soldiers regarding their service in theater. I sure can't speak from personal experience, but what I have read and heard from those who served surely left me with a different perspective.

Phant2000  posted on  2012-03-26   20:40:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: randge (#19)

But honest Injun, Cyni, would you have drilled non-combatants in their beds?

randge...

We have pilots sitting on Colorado, flying drones over the middle east. When the decision is made by someone to take out a house or building, the pilot pushes the button and no more house etc.

Next day we read, "four insurgents killed by drone, eight other non combatants died also, collateral damage".

Could I do it? I have never been there for four years, never had that pressure, so I cannot say.

One has to separate the moral issue from the war issue of being trained to kill or be killed.

If Ike were here he would tell us, kill or I will shoot you.

The entire country called Ike a hero, for KILLING a man because he could not kill.

Ike is a hero, Bales is to be burned at the stake by PUBLIC OPINION, a public that never walked in his shoes.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   20:44:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Phant2000, Jethro Tull, Christine, randge, noone222, Original-Intent (#21) (Edited)

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   20:55:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Phant2000, Jethro Tull, Christine, randge, noone222, Original-Intent (#21)

Take a look at these photos of American Soldiers machine gunning unarmed German POWs.

In the background what you see is the piles of dead German POWs.

There are other photos of this massacre on the internet. However such as this is never taught in schools or college. No one was ever punished.

The grunts were told to kill them and they did.

Look at the photos, that is the ugly face of war. www.scrapbookpages.com/Da...tion/BuechnerAccount.html

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   20:56:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Cynicom, Original_Intent (#20)

Killing because YOU HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO DO SO AUTOMATICALLY ELIMINATES LOGIC. Add to that prolonged mental and physical stress, we have a candidate for killing.

Plus add Ambien and an SSRI inhibitor.......that combination alone, without the pressures of war, has had homicidal effects where the person doesn't even remember killing others.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2012-03-26   21:04:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Phant2000, Jethro Tull, Christine, randge, noone222, Original-Intent (#21)

War...

"In 1989, Lt. Col. Sparks wrote an account of the role of the 45th Infantry Division in the liberation of Dachau. His description of what happened at the wall is as follows:

As I watched, about fifty German troops were brought in from various directions. A machine gun squad from Company I was guarding the prisoners. After watching for a few minutes, I started for the confinement area (the concentration camp), after taking directions from one of my soldiers.

After I had walked away for a short distance, I heard the machine gun guarding the prisoners open fire. I immediately ran back to the gun and kicked the gunner off the gun with my boot.

I then grabbed him by the collar and said: "What the hell are you doing?" ........He was a young private about 19 years old (Private William C. Curtin) and was crying hysterically........... His reply to me was: "Colonel, they were trying to get away." I doubt that they were, but in any event he killed about twelve of the prisoners and wounded several more. I placed a noncom on the gun and headed towards the confinement area."

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   21:08:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: abraxas (#25)

It is an unpleasant experience to be bluntly told that the mission is of vital importance, your life is not.

No sugar coating, nothing. We expect the mission to be carried out...even if it means your life.

When one hears such, you suddenly realize just how expendable, how worthless you are. The people telling you this...ARE NOT GOING WITH YOU.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   21:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Cynicom (#26)

Look at the photos, that is the ugly face of war. and "Colonel, they were trying to get away." I doubt that they were, but in any event he killed about twelve of the prisoners and wounded several more.

And what you provide is just TWO of thousands of documents providing evidence of occurrences on the battlefield. Matter of fact, the photos were nothing compared to some I have seen.

Phant2000  posted on  2012-03-26   21:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Cynicom (#26)

I wish we could get some of the guys over here in the states to blow up the Cripts, Bloods and MS-13. I totally support that.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2012-03-26   21:25:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Jethro Tull, Phant2000 (#29)

Jethro...

Do you recall the American Navy P3 Orion spy plane that landed in China during the Bush regime???????

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-26   21:35:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Jethro Tull (#29)

I wish we could get some of the guys over here in the states to blow up the Cripts, Bloods and MS-13. I totally support that.

Really? And have them face the likes of Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and all the black activists putting on their dog and pony show as they are doing this week in Sanford, Florida ... and then have the Black Panther Party put a bounty on every last one of them?

I would hope you would think that through, JT.

Phant2000  posted on  2012-03-26   21:46:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Cynicom (#30)

Rings a distant bell, Cyni.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2012-03-26   21:49:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Phant2000 (#31)

hahahahaha

You bet!

The Cat 5 racial hurricane has been off shore since 1964, and is about to slam the coast real soon. It no longer matters HOW a RACIAL hurricane is formed, what is important is it's now time to arm up and prepare to fight the bone thru the nose crowd. Sorry for the racial insensitivity, but whites are hated in the nation by the Power and anyone who isn't white.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2012-03-26   21:57:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Jethro Tull (#32)

The plane was returned, after all the goodies had be harvested; so to speak.

Break the Conventions - Keep the Commandments - G.K.Chesterson

Lod  posted on  2012-03-26   21:59:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Eric Stratton, Original_Intent (#5)

There is NO excuse. These are the actions of barbarians.

It's funny how the whole world can "identify" people such as this and those (the pigs) that cause it to begin with and label charge them with "war crimes" after the fact, but how no one seems to be able to have a clue before that time or upon those things happening.

B'AAAH!

[Winner writes the history book]

Yeah, what he said! B'AAAH!

My morality Guru on war related issues is Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC, ret. (deceased)

He said, "The killing of non combatants during peace time is murder."

It's no big jump across the gap to believe that slaughtering women and children asleep in their beds during an un-winnable war of occupation is also murder. But who condemns what the Brits did to the Boers' families as Afrikaner men were hundreds of miles away planning to kick the stuffing out of British invaders again and again?

Hitler supposedly said, "Who remembers what happened to the Armenians?" (at the hands of Ottoman turks)

And I say, "Who remembers Ruby Ridge, Waco or countless unnamed villages in places we never hear of or care about?"

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2012-03-27   2:46:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: HOUNDDAWG, Eric Stratton (#35)

And I say, "Who remembers Ruby Ridge, Waco or countless unnamed villages in places we never hear of or care about?"

I do. I wore the uniform with pride. I did my job and I didn't kill kids. My job was to protect them. That IS a fighting man's job.

I will never accept, and never condone the killing of innocents - particularly in cold blood as occurred here.

But who condemns what the Brits did to the Boers' families as Afrikaner men were hundreds of miles away planning to kick the stuffing out of British invaders again and again?

What the Brits did to the Afrikaner Women and Children was criminal and no different in kind from the kinds of slaughter committed by the SS in France. You are right though people forget - intentionally since it is too sick for them to confront. It's why you see FreepTards justifying mass murder - they are moral cowards unwilling to look at evil, see that it is evil, and rightly name it and condemn it.

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-27   4:19:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Cynicom, abraxas (#20)

Killing because YOU HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO DO SO AUTOMATICALLY ELIMINATES LOGIC.

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. Only the weak minded kill purely on command. I do think it is a mess though, but look at what it is doing to these young men. The Army's suicide rate keeps going up and up. Possibly in part to filling the kids up with SSRI's and then abruptly taking them off when they get shipped home but I am sure that it is in part young men who have done things which in their heart they know were wrong, and now they can't live with that knowledge.

What was done to Eddie Slovik was wrong, and it is recognized as such by moral and ethical people who have studied the case, but that does not provide justification for committing murder.

And yes the evil cabal infesting our government will kill people for not killing. That still does not justify murder. Having a uniform, a gun, and a license to kill does not justify murder no matter how sanctioned.

What was done in the dark of night was murder. There are NO extenuating circumstances.

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-27   4:28:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Original_Intent (#36)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

—Samuel Adams

America: Israel's Handmaiden

Eric Stratton  posted on  2012-03-27   4:38:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Eric Stratton (#38)

It's why you see FreepTards justifying mass murder - they are moral cowards unwilling to look at evil, see that it is evil, and rightly name it and condemn it.

They are moral cowards. They're also willful ignoramuses.

Well, there's that too. ;-)

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-27   5:06:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Original_Intent (#37)

Only the weak minded kill purely on command.

OI...

In reality of war that is not correct.

Below is url I sent that shows many Americans slaughtering unarmed POWS...ON COMMAND...are all of those men in the photos weak minded. The piles of dead Germans are there, they WERE ORDERED TO KILL AND THEY DID.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html

Revisit My Lai...Everyone at the trial agreed, HUNDREDS WERE SHOT ON COMMAND. Even Calley admitted that, he was acting...ON COMMAND... from his superior. The military decided to minimize punishment by finding Calley guilty, his commander walked away. The same will happen here, Bales will rot in prison, justifiably so, but no one in command will go with him. No extenuating circumstances, no command failure, grind a grunt to satisfy American self righteous blood lust, BUT DO NOT FAULT THE SYSTEM.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-27   8:56:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Cynicom (#40)

No extenuating circumstances, no command failure, grind a grunt to satisfy American self righteous blood lust, BUT DO NOT FAULT THE SYSTEM.

Bullshit. You and I know it. I can't speak for anyone else.

Phant2000  posted on  2012-03-27   11:00:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Cynicom (#40)

Revisit My Lai...Everyone at the trial agreed, HUNDREDS WERE SHOT ON COMMAND. Even Calley admitted that, he was acting...ON COMMAND... from his superior. The military decided to minimize punishment by finding Calley guilty, his commander walked away. The same will happen here, Bales will rot in prison, justifiably so, but no one in command will go with him. No extenuating circumstances, no command failure, grind a grunt to satisfy American self righteous blood lust, BUT DO NOT FAULT THE SYSTEM.

With that I pretty much agree. There is nothing in my ten years in uniform which would lead me to conclude otherwise. Always, Always, Always when a crime is committed or a major clusterf*@k occurs it will be hung on the lowest ranking enlisted man possible. The "Officers and Gentlemen" of the service, all services, are officers only.

And yes some will kill on command that I will not deny, but I still stand by my comment that it is the weak minded who will kill for the wrong reasons and because they "vere chust followink hoarders". I did not say that there are a lot with the moral courage to say no regardless of the circumstances, and often those who do have "accidents", but they are there. There are men of conscience. Unfortunately most of them are bright enough to see how the system is rigged they are gone and out of uniform. It is instructive to note that the military does not like former enlisted to reach above the mid officer grades when the few who win a commission do. Ask Adm. Jeremy Boorda about that one.

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-27   14:20:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Original_Intent (#42)

UCMJ

Friend during Korean thing developed heart murmur so he was grounded.

With nothing to do, he was dragged into sitting on court martial and article 15 panels.

He was shocked to find that all the "legal" people would meet each morning over coffee, decide who was guilty or not guilty, and then go into "official mode" and do what they had already decided on.

After a few of these "justice" hangings he and a fellow officer could stomach it no longer. They decided to vote not guilty on everyone and did.

At once they were no longer asked to sit on the punishment boards.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-27   17:05:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Cynicom (#43)

After a few of these "justice" hangings he and a fellow officer could stomach it no longer. They decided to vote not guilty on everyone and did.

At once they were no longer asked to sit on the punishment boards.

Well, that's understandable - they were obstructing the railroad.

Perseverent Gardener
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2012-03-28   4:06:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Original_Intent, Phant2000, Jethro Tull (#44)

- they were obstructing the railroad.

They derailed the "justice" train.

After I was grounded, the war was over, I finished my "enlistment" in intelligence and security.

He was my "superior" and OIC in the unit. One day when we were alone. he said, "I am wise to you, you have been and are f...... the government every day, are'nt you"?

I replied, YES.

Then he said, well then you know I am doing the same thing, make the bastards pay.

I replied, yes, I know what you are doing.

Blood brothers, in the military, hating both the military and the government.

Cynicom  posted on  2012-03-28   8:18:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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