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Title: Why Support the Troops?
Source:
Future of Freedom Foundation
URL Source: http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2012-09-21.asp
Published: Sep 22, 2012
Author: Jacob G. Hornberger
Post Date: 2012-09-22 12:45:35 by F.A. Hayek Fan
Keywords: None
Views: 782
Comments: 42
One of the most fascinating phenomena of our time is the extreme reverence that the American people have been taught to have for the military. Wherever you go -- airports, sports events, church -- there is a god-like worship of the military. "Let us all stand and express our sincerest thanks to our troops for the wonderful service they perform for our country," declare the sports broadcasters. "Let us pray for the troops, especially those in harm's way," church ministers exhort their parishioners. "Let us give a big hand to our troops who are traveling with us today," exclaim airline officials. Every time I see this reverence for the military being expressed, I wonder if people ever give any thought to what exactly the troops are doing. No one seems to ask that question. It just doesn't seem to matter. The assumption is that whatever the troops are doing, they are protecting our "rights and freedoms." As one sports broadcaster I recently heard put it, "We wouldn't be here playing this game if it weren't for the troops." There is at least one big problem with this phenomenon, however: The troops are engaged in actions that are harmful to the American people, including most of the people who have a reverential attitude toward them. Consider the following hypothetical. Suppose a family lives out in the country on a 50-acre spread in the middle of a wooded area. In the trees are dozens of hornets' nests. The hornets leave the family alone because the family leaves the hornets' nests alone. One day U.S. troops arrive, come on to the property, and begin poking every hornets' nest they can find. For the next several days, the members of the family and their friends and visitors are stung by the hornets. The following week, the troops arrive and do the same thing, with the same results. This goes on indefinitely. Suppose we were to encounter the family and ask them how they feel about the troops. We could easily imagine them saying, "Oh, we love the troops and we support them. Without them, we wouldn't have this nice property. Thank goodness for the troops because they are keeping us free." What about all weekly stings from the hornets? We could easily imagine the family responding, "Oh, that's not the troops' fault. For some reason, the hornets are just mad these days, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the troops are poking their nests. Anyway, the troops are just following orders. It's not their fault. We love the troops." Does that make any sense? It seems to me that when people are doing the right thing, they are entitled to be supported. But when they're engaged in wrongful or harmful conduct, then they shouldn't be supported. Why should the military be exempt from normal moral and ethical principles? Consider the threat of terrorism, which Americans have lived under now for some 11 years. Did you ever think that 9/11 would change our country so fundamentally? There wasn't any "war on terrorism" before 9/11. Torture and assassination weren't official policy. There was no detention center at Guantanamo Bay. There were no official kidnappings, rendition, and torture partnerships with brutal dictatorial regimes. There was no indefinite incarceration without trial. So, why must everything be different just because of 9/11? Why can't we live in a normally functioning society, one in which people are not living under the constant fear of terrorism and one in which the government isn't adopting and employing permanent "emergency" powers that constitute severe infringements on the freedoms of the people. What was it that produced the anger and rage that brought on 9/11? Was it hatred for America's "freedom and values," as U.S. officials maintain? Or was it anger and rage arising from what the troops and other U.S. officials were doing to people in the months and years leading up to 9/11? That obviously gets us into U.S. foreign policy, an area that makes many people who support the troops very uncomfortable. Why? Because if they conclude that the troops are doing things to people overseas that are producing the anti-American anger and rage that culminates in anti-American terrorism, then that presents a problem for them. How do they in good conscience continue supporting the people who are causing their problems? Yet, the reality is that the troops are doing things to people overseas that are making people angry at the United States. Examples include the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan and ever-increasing drone assassinations. As everyone knows, such actions have succeeded in killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of people, including women and children. On top of that has been the torture, the kidnappings, Gitmo, the support of brutal dictatorships and the Israeli government, the U.S. troops on Islamic holy lands, the illegal no-fly zone over Iraq, the sanctions that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, and the current sanctions on Iran. It's the troops who enforce many of those programs. Now, it might be said that the troops aren't at fault because they're just following orders. Even if that's true, is that any reason to support them? For one thing, no one forced them to join an organization that would require them to do whatever they were ordered to do. They did that on their own volition. Moreover, even though they're following orders, the fact remains that what they're doing is nonetheless counterproductive to the best interests of the American people. That is, for those of us who want a normally functioning society, rather than the aberrant post-911 society in which we now live, what the troops are doing is an obstacle to the achievement of our goal, whether they are doing it willingly or simply on orders of their commanders. For those Americans who like the direction our country has been taking for the past 11 years and would like things to continue as they are, the best thing they can do is simply continue supporting the troops. But for people who are sick and tired of all this, for them it's necessary to confront the root causes of America's problems. And like it or not, one of the root causes of America's woes is the U.S. military establishment and the entire national-security state, not only with respect to the anti-American anger and hatred they produce by their actions overseas but also by contributing to the out-of-control spending and debt that now constitute a grave threat to the economic well-being of our nation. Why would anyone want to support people who are doing things that are detrimental to us and our country?
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#1. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)
Support Our Troops looks like hokey propaganda perpetuated on Jew-controlled mainstream media to have America maintain a supply of fighters against Israel's enemies. Politicians supporting war funding seem to be the ones who get Jew organizational and other support at election time. MSM talk show hosts now thank callers for their service if they identify themselves as vets.
Perhaps it would be fair to identify who the "troops" are and who is representative as the "United States". In all of history and as is current now, the "troops" are constituted of ninety per cent from the lowest class of American society. The remaining ten per cent is the officer class, professional people, from the upper classes. Who is the "United states"? Perhaps one needs to look inward for that answer. The United States are the people that years ago were delirious with joy when the crime of military servitude was taken off the backs of the people. Those people voted then and now with great fervor for the elected representatives, that would "hire" the dregs of the lowest class of American society, to fulfill the needs of the military, so they, their offspring, would never be called upon again to kill or be killed. Now all the evils of this country are visited upon the backs of the lowest of the low, the dregs of the lowest of society that we scorn so easily. Our cry is that they should just walk away, refuse to kill, TO DO THEIR DUTY and defy this government. They HAVE A DUTY, we have none? Sad. Pvt. Eddie Slovik in the past, refused to kill anymore, for that he was shot on the orders of a man that became President of the ....UNITED STATES... Self righteousness accompanied with hate, is indicative of people that do not walk in the shoes of the lowest of the the low.
Not exactly true. Senate Report 93-549 War and Emergency Powers Acts addresses that we have been under a war on terrorism since March 9, 1933. This was also the same date (actually from March 6-9, 1933) that FDR had a bank holiday enacted for several days while people's gold were stolen from their vaults as ordered by FDR while the people were refused access to them. My dad vividly remembers that date specifically because he was an active investor in gold bullion as well as the stock market and lost in both. FDR screwed everybody except the elite bloodlines wealth. Senate Report 93-549 http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep1.html
Many people do not wish to be reminded of "history" as it is "irrelevant". FDRs uncle was a member of the first Board of Directors of the Federal Reserve, in 1913.
Self righteousness accompanied with hate, is indicative of people that do not walk in the shoes of the lowest of the the low. While we recognize your perhaps over tender sensibilities in this regard, Cyni, I have to say that I do not see anything remotely approaching hate in the observation that you highlight in the article. When we blow up large numbers of civilians who are by and large not our enemies and are mostly folks just trying to get on with their lives, we have to ask ourselves what the consequences are and just where the buck stops. Other nations have been brought to the dock of history, and have responded by bringing some of their officer class to the gallows and delivering them to prison, but the general consensus has been also that everyone in such nations bears responsibility. We'll all be called to account one day. Yawn. I understand that the government provides you with your daily bread but your government apologetics is boring.
Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! If you say so. However, there is no question that the country changed after 9/11 which I believe was the authors point. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! Speak for yourself (no disrespect intended). I recognize nothing except that he has no idea what he is talking about. This lowest of the low stuff is balderdash. I served with rich, poor and middle class. He's trying to make it sound as if the "poor soldiers" were forced to join the military and are victims. They were not and are not victims and would reject the idea if it were presented to them. They chose to join on their own free will KNOWING what they would be doing. It's not as if the WOT began yesterday. Cynicom is a big government, perpetual war apologist making piss poor excuses for immoral and unjustified behavior Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! Where can I get a box or yellow ribbons?
~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ A+ wakeup. This caller sums up my feelings exactly. There is no excuse for ignorance and there is no excuse to fight for Israel and AmeriKa. Jew Tools....what more needs to be said?
Yeah, you're right. My way of pulling punches here, and I am speaking for no one but myself. I have sincere sympathy for those generations that were forced to bear the burden of war, but those who have gone out of their own volition in these campaigns, whether out of ignorance or in the hope of benefits, bear part of the responsibility for the outcome. It's long past time for Americans to wake up. No one is being dragged in chains, buckled to the floor of a C-130 and being delivered to Iraq or Afghanistan. And we shouldn't be hypnotized by the prospect of a Central Asian land war/West Pacific sea campaign as an historic inevitablity, as Cyni seems to do. That is a dangerous teaching, for then the draft will return, and we will soon find out the real reason for our seemingly open-handed immigration policies. Do you consider Pat Tillman to have been a "dreg of the lowest class of American society"? He's just parroting uninformed liberal talking points, just like he does with unions and bureaucrats.
Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! It's long past time for Americans to wake up. No one is being dragged in chains, buckled to the floor of a C-130 and being delivered to Iraq or Afghanistan. And we shouldn't be hypnotized by the prospect of a Central Asian land war/West Pacific sea campaign as an historic inevitablity, as Cyni seems to do. That is a dangerous teaching, for then the draft will return, and we will soon find out the real reason for our seemingly open-handed immigration policies. Cyni is a government apologist, plain and simple. I have no sympathy for him or his ilk at all. We have been in a WOT for 11 years. The atrocities committed by our side are well known and those that volunteer know that they are going to be required to commit them, yet they willingly sign up. While some of these people join due to their economic circumstances, even more join because they are young and want adventure and want to "kill dem some ragheads." Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! In my experience, Cynicom has some perspective of this government of ours as a large scale factory of lies. It does seem that he is reflexively protective of fellow men and women that have been called to serve. But aside from whatever opinions we may have for other posters here, I wanna say that I for one do not believe it is a good idea to judge men and women who've gone off to fight in whatever flavor of the month war we're conducting too harshly and all at a stroke. Many of them have come home much the wiser, and we cannot afford to drive them further into the arms of the raghead haters, pirates and war profiteers. It doesn't take any wisdom to see that the government is a large scale factory of lies. It is self evident to most. I wanna say that I for one do not believe it is a good idea to judge men and women who've gone off to fight in whatever flavor of the month war we're conducting too harshly and all at a stroke. Many of them have come home much the wiser, and we cannot afford to drive them further into the arms of the raghead haters, pirates and war profiteers. I don't believe I do that. How could I when I am just like they are? Don't forget that it took me 15 years to wise up and realize that I was being used. However, once I finally admitted the truth to myself I willingly gave up a life long retirement check. There were people all around me who knew the same thing I did but stayed in and allowed themselves to be used in order for uncle sugar to take care of them for life. There are people like that today and they disgust me. I agree with the premise of the article when it comes to supporting the troops. They should not be supported, nor should their mission. Supporting the troops and/or their mission means supporting the Republicrat and Democan parties and their goal to rule the world and turn the country into a police state. I appreciate the fact that many soldiers come back wiser from their experiences. I also appreciate the fact that kids do stupid things they regret later in life. Lord knows I have. However, just because I made mistakes doesn't mean I have to support those making the same mistakes today. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! Would that it were self evident to most. We wouldn't be in the pickle that we find ourselves in today. In all other respects, FAH, I am in full accord with what you say. I always read your posts. You hit 'em hard. Sigh. Of course you are correct, as much as I wish you weren't. Every time I think about things like this I get an understanding of why people went West. I think you and I are the type that would've moved West, while the rest of the sheep like those on LP and FR would have stayed in the East so that they could control their neighbors. Too bad there is no West for us to move to these days. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! My dad "went West" because in his mother country, when you were looking for an opportunity, the guys who did the hiring would ask, "Who is his father?" or "What does his father do?" I am in Texas. No where else for me to go. Suppose I could go to Montana or Idaho, but at this stage in my life, this is it for better or worse. There ain't no more westering. What I believe is not relevant. The perception of many of this forum and a large segment of Americans is that these "murderers" that join the military because they ENJOY doing such work are indeed the dregs of our society. That these "dregs" do come from the lowest class is indeed without question. The military is quite open with that. Few elitists sons join the military for two thousand dollars a month. History is replete with endless references of the constitution of mass armies. It is a fact, it has always been a fact, the vast majority of "soldiers" in any army comes from the lower class. So the characterization of the dregs of society is indeed not mine, it is a historical record. Exceptions to the record, of course.
Who is the "United states"? Perhaps one needs to look inward for that answer. The United States are the people that years ago were delirious with joy when the crime of military servitude was taken off the backs of the people. Those people voted then and now with great fervor for the elected representatives, that would "hire" the dregs of the lowest class of American society, to fulfill the needs of the military, so they, their offspring, would never be called upon again to kill or be killed. You nailed it, Cynicom!
Perhaps we might back that up one more notch of responsibility. Those of us that pay our taxes on time OUT OF FEAR, BECAUSE WE DO NOT WANT TO BE IMPRISONED, and we continue to vote to legitimize this criminal corrupt government BEAR THE ENTIRE RESPONSIBILITY. Every last citizen, even the millionaires are very prompt about paying their taxes, to hire "murderers", do so because WE HAVE ABJECT FEAR of the very government we legitimize. I do, you do, we all do and I am ashamed, we want the lowest of the low to stand up, refuse to "murder" to walk away, it is their duty. Were it not for these "murderers that volunteer" we would have a DRAFT and we would draft the very same people. What are we, the American voting citizens doing to stand up to this government??????????? NOT ONE GOD DAMNED THING. Cowardly lot we are, the lowest of the low making two thousand a month IS ALL TO BLAME, IT IS THEIR FAULT, THEY SHOULD STAND UP TO THE GOVERNMENT. Right, been there, government always wins.
Yes it is with question and you are making things up. Who Bears the Burden? Demographic Characteristics of U.S. Military Recruits Before and After 9/11 You are doing nothing but spewing the liberal talking points of people like Charles Rangel. From the above report: "We found that recruits tend to come from middle-class areas, with disproportionately fewer from low-income areas. Overall, the income distribution of military enlistees is more similar to than different from the income distribution of the general population." Military Enlistees by Neighborhood Income Levels Poorest Quintile: 1999 recruits 18%, 2003 recruits 15% Quintile 2: 1999 recruits 21%, 2003 recruits 20% Quintile 3: 1999 recruits 21%, 2003 recruits 21% Quintile 4: 1999 recruits 21%, 2003 recruits 23% Richest Quintile 5: 1999 recruits 19%, 2003 recruits 22% Your uneducated, preconceived notions do not match the reality of the situation. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! Were it not for Americans that volunteer THEY would institue a DRAFT and THEY would draft whomever they could get their mitts on. By THEY of course I mean our betters. And yes we are all responsible because we allow ourselves to be defrauded and our wealth to be expropriated at every turn in furtherance of these effin' global escapades. The so called murderers, are the ones that are on the ground, that pull the triggers, they are indeed the ones you post about. There are no MIT grads, nor millionaires out doing the grunt work, it is the lowest of the low. The world loves self righteous people, especially those that point fingers and pontificate at endless length AT WHAT OTHERS SHOULD DO. There is a way to stop these "voluntary murderers", all we have to do is DEMAND A DRAFT. Put self righteous citizens in Afghanistan with rifles AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.
Here's a later study which also shows Cynicom to be "mistaken" in his beliefs: Who Serves in the U.S. Military? Demographic Characteristics of Enlisted Troops and Of ficers Poorest Quintile ($0 - $33,267): 1999 recruits 10.6%, 2003 recruits 10.7% Quintile 2 ($33,268– $42,039): 2006 recruits 18.3%, 2007 recruits 18.3% Quintile 3 ($42,040– $51,127): 2006 recruits 21.7%, 2007 recruits 21.7% Quintile 4 ($51,128– $65,031): 2006 recruits 24.3%, 2007 recruits 24.4% Richest Quintile 5 ($65,032– $246,333): 2006 recruits 25%, 2007 recruits 24.9% Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! Ah, so now the lowest of the low and "dregs" consist of anyone who is not rich. My, my, what a low self esteem you must have. I see you also toss out more Rangel talking points. Bring back the draft so everyone can "do their fare share" eh comrade? No one is forcing anyone to join the military. Those who joined knew they would be sent to Afghanistan and elsewhere. Keep putting your foot in your mouth comrade. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! That in reality does not happen. As an example, having lived under a draft for much of my life, I might cite my graduating class of thirteen boys. Six were from middle class, seven were from the bottom. Seven of us went off to war, six stayed home. How did that happen???? Even a draft is NOT equal or fair, it is rigged to ensure those that have or share the power of the system, are afforded a way out or at least a chance of a safe haven in the military. What does it take to obtain the fruit of a draft??? Power, influence and or money. Two of my "friends" were declared 4F and prospered greatly from the war. They both had "bad backs". All sports heros in school, but suddenly practically invalids. Simple. They had high influence doctors submit a diagnosis as to their infirmities to the local draft board and darn, they were home free. One signed a contract with the then Brooklyn Dodgers, bad back and all. Truly amazing. IN life one has to acknowledge the odds.
First you make the claim that only the poor serve and now you claim that only the poor serve as grunts. Prove it, mouth. You've already been proven wrong on one point so why should anyone take you at your word on this subject? Prove your claim. You are a supposed 80+ year old man whose military experience consists of being drafted during the Korean war. You appear to be working off of assumptions that are multiple decades old. This isn't the 1950's or 1960's. The military pays hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars a year creating propaganda that glorifies the military and the military lifestyle. Children are subjected to it from grade school on. People of all walks of life fall for this propaganda and join all of the military MOS's for a variety of reasons. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! I prefer civil discourse.
You got a point because if they draft me, and I'm forced to shoot their enemy, I will refuse and lay down my weapon because I am a child of the light and my master is Jesus Christ and I do not believe in killing for my government. I guess what will happen to me is I'll be shot in the back or back of the head by one of my own brothers in arms for aiding the enemy. Because from my perspective of being self-righteous, I refuse to shoot an innocent human being whom my own government views as "a terrorist".
Militarys the world over and for endless time, have had a solution for that. Our military has been very careful about using their authority to take lives. The last I recall was Slovik during WW2. Before that time we were not as compassionate. Many other armies in the past have taken instant justice, shot or hung on the spot, no trial, nothing. Germans, Russians and Japanese shot thousands on the spot during WW2. It does tend to make the others think twice about refusing "orders". Recall Picketts charge? General Robert E. Lee ordered a frontal suicide charge at Gettysburg, the other Generals were aghast, surely he was not serious? It would be fruitless suicide to do so. Lee did not relent, the charge went ahead and hundreds of men died for...NOTHING. General Lee mounted his horse and started south. It took days to tend to the dead and dying. Pickett did not lead the charge and survived to olde age. The dregs of southern society died there that day.
I'd argue they were involved at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. If I give it some more thought, I bet I can come up with more recent examples.
No, you prefer to use that as an excuse when you are no longer able to defend your position. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! How could I ever forget that? Excellent example, Jethro Tull.
Agreed... My intent was shooting their own, not civilians. The military hierarchy has great disdain for the common cannon fodder at the bottom. As a grunt in the military, regardless of how you got there, you are quick to realize that you are NOTHING, you are totally expendable and should you speak out, you can and will be squashed like a grape. When any youngster awakes in the military, to find himself in a very dangerous position, two things come to mind. One, what must and can I do to SURVIVE. Two, what can I do in my own small way to thwart the government and the military. Short of being shot of course.
But they did shoot and kill civilians. Vicky Weaver was shot in the face while holding her baby in her arms during the Ruby Ridge standoff. The DOJ never issued any formal apology for their blatant egregious actions either. And as for those people who died in Waco April 19, 1993, it was Janet Reno who ordered the raid and ordered all of those people be killed with fatal gas fumes, and gas grenades which caused their bodies to bend backwards and break apart. I hope she burns in hell for this. I really do.
Gen. Wesley Clark was the military in charge person. Later wanted to be President.
But Reno was the one who ordered the raid and tear gassing of the Waco civilians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H...feature=player_embedded#! Sonny Bono grilled Reno on this in '95 and in Jan of '98 he was murdered.
Isn't it amazing how some people believe that a skilled skier like Bono managed to find a tree with his head not long after his hard questioning of Reno. I forget who said, "In politics there are no accidents" but he was dead on.
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#2. To: All (#0)
Yet, the reality is that the troops are doing things to people overseas that are making people angry at the....... United States.....
#3. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)
(Edited)
There wasn't any "war on terrorism" before 9/11.
#4. To: purplerose (#3)
#5. To: Cynicom (#2)
Yet, the reality is that the troops are doing things to people overseas that are making people angry at the....... United States.....
#6. To: Cynicom (#2)
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#7. To: purplerose (#3)
(Edited)
Not exactly true. Senate Report 93-549 War and Emergency Powers Acts addresses that we have been under a war on terrorism since March 9, 1933.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#8. To: randge (#5)
(Edited)
While we recognize your perhaps over tender sensibilities in this regard, Cyni,
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#9. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#0)
(Edited)
Dollar DVD Project Liberty needs patriot activists
to help wake the town and tell the people. Do your
friends and family know what you know?
#10. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, All (#0)
Dollar DVD Project Liberty needs patriot activists
to help wake the town and tell the people. Do your
friends and family know what you know?
#11. To: wakeup (#10)
#12. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, Cynicom (#8)
Speak for yourself (no disrespect intended).
#13. To: Cynicom (#2)
Those people voted then and now with great fervor for the elected representatives, that would "hire" the dregs of the lowest class of American society, to fulfill the needs of the military, so they, their offspring, would never be called upon again to kill or be killed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#14. To: FormerLurker (#13)
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#15. To: randge (#12)
I have sincere sympathy for those generations that were forced to bear the burden of war, but those who have gone out of their own volition in these campaigns, whether out of ignorance or in the hope of benefits, bear part of the responsibility for the outcome.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#16. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#15)
#17. To: randge (#16)
In my experience, Cynicom has some perspective of this government of ours as a large scale factory of lies. It does seem that he is reflexively protective of fellow men and women that have been called to serve.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#18. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#17)
It doesn't take any wisdom to see that the government is a large scale factory of lies. It is self evident to most.
#19. To: randge (#18)
Would that it were self evident to most. We wouldn't be in the pickle that we find ourselves in today.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#20. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#19)
#21. To: FormerLurker (#13)
Do you consider Pat Tillman to have been a "dreg of the lowest class of American society"?
#22. To: Cynicom (#2)
In all of history and as is current now, the "troops" are constituted of ninety per cent from the lowest class of American society. The remaining ten per cent is the officer class, professional people, from the upper classes.
#23. To: randge (#12)
but those who have gone out of their own volition in these campaigns, whether out of ignorance or in the hope of benefits, bear part of the responsibility for the outcome.
#24. To: Cynicom, FormerLurker (#21)
That these "dregs" do come from the lowest class is indeed without question. The military is quite open with that.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#25. To: Cynicom (#23)
Were it not for these "murderers that volunteer" we would have a DRAFT and we would draft the very same people.
#26. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#24)
Military Enlistees by Neighborhood Income Levels
#27. To: All (#24)
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#28. To: Cynicom (#26)
(Edited)
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#29. To: randge (#25)
Were it not for Americans that volunteer THEY would institue a DRAFT and THEY would draft whomever they could get their mitts on
#30. To: Cynicom (#26)
There are no MIT grads, nor millionaires out doing the grunt work, it is the lowest of the low.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#31. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#30)
Prove it, mouth.
#32. To: Cynicom (#26)
There is a way to stop these "voluntary murderers", all we have to do is DEMAND A DRAFT. Put self righteous citizens in Afghanistan with rifles AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.
#33. To: purplerose (#32)
, I will refuse and lay down my weapon
#34. To: Cynicom (#33)
Our military has been very careful about using their authority to take lives. The last I recall was Slovik during WW2.
#35. To: Cynicom (#31)
I prefer civil discourse.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#36. To: Jethro Tull (#34)
I'd argue they were involved at both Ruby Ridge and Waco.
#37. To: Jethro Tull (#34)
I'd argue they were involved at both Ruby Ridge and Waco
#38. To: Cynicom (#37)
My intent was shooting their own, not civilians.
#39. To: purplerose (#38)
#40. To: Cynicom (#39)
(Edited)
#41. To: purplerose (#40)
Sonny Bono grilled Reno on this in '95 and in Jan of '98 he was murdered.
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