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Title: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design
Source:
Yahoo News
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051118/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_evolution
Published: Nov 18, 2005
Author: Nicole Winfield
Post Date: 2005-11-18 16:58:22 by Zipporah
Keywords: Intelligent, Official, Vatican
Views: 612
Comments: 66
VATICAN CITY - The Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States. The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges. "Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science." His comments were in line with his previous statements on "intelligent design" — whose supporters hold that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power. Proponents of intelligent design are seeking to get public schools in the United States to teach it as part of the science curriculum. Critics say intelligent design is merely creationism — a literal reading of the Bible's story of creation — camouflaged in scientific language, and they say it does not belong in science curriculum. In a June article in the British Catholic magazine The Tablet, Coyne reaffirmed God's role in creation, but said science explains the history of the universe. "If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe as a watch that ticks along regularly." Rather, he argued, God should be seen more as an encouraging parent. "God in his infinite freedom continuously creates a world that reflects that freedom at all levels of the evolutionary process to greater and greater complexity," he wrote. "He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves." The Vatican Observatory, which Coyne heads, is one of the oldest astronomical research institutions in the world. It is based in the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo south of Rome. Last week, Pope Benedict XVI waded indirectly into the evolution debate by saying the universe was made by an "intelligent project" and criticizing those who in the name of science say its creation was without direction or order. Questions about the Vatican's position on evolution were raised in July by Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn. In a New York Times column, Schoenborn seemed to back intelligent design and dismissed a 1996 statement by Pope John Paul II that evolution was "more than just a hypothesis." Schoenborn said the late pope's statement was "rather vague and unimportant."
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#26. To: Zipporah (#0)
BTW, I have a very good friend who's whole family condemns evolution and subscribes to creationism. A few friends actually. I've listened to a lot of arguments on Christian radio that support so-called intelligent design, but most of them I've found kinda shallow. Also, it seems to me the core argument in favor of ID is that evolution can't explain this or that, the inference apparently being that if it wasn't evolution it MUST therefore be ID. But that's not a scientific approach to arguing in favor of ID. It's merely circumstancial. It's not important to me HOW God made the universe. In fact as a programmer myself it's easy to be impressed with the Master Programmer who created all merely authoring it's laws of physics and pressing the Start button 15 billion years ago. To me, if that's how it happened, that's really, really awesome. Creationists don't question the scientific claim as to the size of the universe, do they? If not, Why shouldn't the universe be as old as it is huge? I fear some creationists are erring by basing their faith not in God, but ironically, in science in attempting to argue *how* life came to be. In the christian realm, it's not important *How* God did it, is it?
If the Bible is the word of God as it says it is. Then you can count back to the creation beginning. It was thousands of years ago. God himself said in Genesis 2v4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, It says right there that is when he created them. If you compromise and accept billions of years as some christians do. And buy into all that evolution stuff then you have to say that their was death and dying prior to adam and eve. God said there was no death before sin. So if you accept the Bible as to what it claims to be then you have to believe in a young earth. How can it be any other way?
I too was raised catholic...Irish Catholic. There are many reasons I left the catholic church, the worship of Mary being just one. A persons faith depends on their relationship with Christ not some dogma past down through generations. The doctrine of papal infallibility...of him sitting on the seat of Christ here on earth can be found nowhere in the bible. That being said I know many fine catholic folk who love Christ and have dedicated their lives to Him and His service. I will say this, I have always loved the catholic form of worship. There is a...how can I say it....a reverence in their mass that I find lacking in many protestant assemblies.
I'm sure the history of the church is a facinating subject and you apparently know more than me about it. I've certainly heard my share of alleged tidbits of info on how heathen icons have made their home in contemporary christianity. Christmas coinciding nearly with the winter solstice, Easter being the name of a Roman god of fertility, which is where the easter bunny came from, along with the easter egg, the connection being "rebirth" with "ressurection". I've heard it alleged that when Constintine officially recognized christianity, all he really did was rename the god Hera to Mary. The practice of decorating trees with silver and gold is litterally condemned in the old testament too. All that aside, in terms of what "real" christianity is, however, I'd say it's nothing that any church, catholic or otherwise, can hold with or without all the above. It's much more personal than that, and if your relationship with God is not personal, it's not real. Period.
I was raised catholic as well but left the church of my own accord when I turned 13. It was a place in which I never felt comfortable. I remember even being repelled by the smells of the santuary and other rooms of the building. Never was it a place in which I felt warmth or love. In fact, what I felt was a cultist, almost sinister atmosphere.
I always kinda liked the smell of incense burning in the church I attended as a tad.
That's where I have gotten to as well. "Real" Christianity, to me, at least, is less about rules and regulations [Pharisees, anyone?] and more about the basic virtues that it is supposed to teach. Enslaving yourself to any group or any thing isn't what its about. A religious experience is just that - deep and personal - and it isn't something you can find anywhere but inside yourself. My *personal* take on the Bible is that it is a great source of inspiration, but not to be taken verbatim or literally. Historically, that bears out since there is no such thing as an "original" manuscript and no two manuscripts that survive agree. It also bears out Biblically because St. Paul only made the claim that it was inspired and that it is useful. If you have an interest in how the early church ran and how the Bible was corrupted (and continues to be corrupted by people with an agenda) then Bart Ehrman's series of books may interest you. In particular, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture and Lost Scriptures: Books that didn't make it into the New Testament are absolutely fascinating. The Lost Christianities offers a look into the immense variety of different flavors of Christianity that popped up starting in the first century and some insight into the battles for Orthodoxy that stamped them out and stampeded everyone into the Catholic Church.
#27. To: Neil McIver (#26)
#28. To: Neil McIver (#21)
#29. To: mirage (#23)
#30. To: Neil McIver (#21)
#31. To: christine (#30)
I remember even being repelled by the smells of the santuary and other rooms of the building.
#32. To: Neil McIver (#29)
All that aside, in terms of what "real" christianity is, however, I'd say it's nothing that any church, catholic or otherwise, can hold with or without all the above. It's much more personal than that, and if your relationship with God is not personal, it's not real. Period.
#33. To: Neil McIver (#21)
But they've got such impressive achitecture...
Considering the Catholic Church as "holy" or similar because of it's historical origins is dangerous territory.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#34. To: A K A Stone (#27)
If you accept the Bible as the literal Word of God, then yes, you must also accept the age of the universe as some 6000 years. Consequently, if you believe the universe is some 15 billion years old, you must accept something in Genesis as at minimum, less than literal. An in depth debate is more than I have time for at the moment, but in reading Genesis if you start reading from, I think, chapter 2 verse 4, you'll find that it reads as though it's a brand new story of creation. It's as though chapter 1 and the first 3 verses of chapter 2 are a complete story of creation, and verse 4 begins another version, much as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are different versions of the Gospel. But why is it like that? I don't know, though some argue it is evidence of two ancient stories placed back to back when both are found pleasing. Taking a scientific view, Genesis says the world was created in 6 days, and yet the sun and moon weren't created until day 3. That being the case, by what measure of "day" were the first 2 days of creation, when there was not yet any sun or moon? How can time be scientifically measured in days without the sun? Do those first 2 days really have to be a 24 hour days? Is physical death the same as spiritual death? Whatever the state of creation prior to Adam and Eve, I can accept it was indeed pleasing to God.
If the Bible is the word of God as it says it is. Then you can count back to the creation beginning. It was thousands of years ago. God himself said in
And buy into all that evolution stuff then you have to say that their was death and dying prior to adam and eve. God said there was no death before sin.
#35. To: Zipporah (#13)
So you're saying you don't consider Catholics to be Christians? Wow, and all these idiots in the real world think intolerence was invented by Saddam... Go to Denmark, you Melvins hater!
What Im saying is.. that officially Roman Catholics do not view statues and paintings etc as having any power or any diety.. just as Christians have crosses in churches..
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#36. To: Wrench (#28)
My mother feels the same way, but I've never felt that myself. As a kid, going to Mass was a chore and nothing more. The only exception I can think of was when I was 18 in basic training for the US Army. Sunday mornings at catholic church perhaps gave me some badly needed connection to my past life. Yes bible-based church services have a very different atmosphere.
I will say this, I have always loved the catholic form of worship. There is a...how can I say it....a reverence in their mass that I find lacking in many protestant assemblies.
#37. To: Neil McIver, A K A Stone (#34)
How long is a day in dog God years? Human years? Human years measured by dogs?
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#38. To: Neil McIver (#34)
I think chapter 1 and 2 fit hand in hand. Chapter 1 gives an overview (fist part of chapter 2 also). Then chapter 2 goes back over it and gives some more details.
I think, chapter 2 verse 4, you'll find that it reads as though it's a brand new story of creation. It's as though chapter 1 and the first 3 verses of chapter 2 are a complete story of creation, and verse 4 begins another version
#39. To: Neil McIver (#34)
Maybe the creation of sun and moon was to mark the day and night. Day and night already existed and just needed to be marked for mankinds benefit.
Taking a scientific view, Genesis says the world was created in 6 days, and yet the sun and moon weren't created until day 3. That being the case, by what measure of "day" were the first 2 days of creation, when there was not yet any sun or moon?
#40. To: Dakmar (#33)
Here in Quito, Ecuador there's an absolutely enormous cathedral. It's been under construction for 100 years and I'm told is about 80% done.
But they've got such impressive achitecture...
#41. To: Dakmar (#37)
Same as it is now.
How long is a day in dog God years? Human years? Human years measured by dogs?
#42. To: Wrench (#28)
Not much to get excited about in 16/17th century northern europe, cold most of the time, vikings had settled down...In italy they had just discovered pasta, sunbathing, and aviation.
I will say this, I have always loved the catholic form of worship. There is a...how can I say it....a reverence in their mass that I find lacking in many protestant assemblies.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#43. To: Dakmar (#42)
Ah shaddap before I sling a cat at you.
#44. To: A K A Stone (#41)
Same as it is now. How many species of dinosaurs did Noah have on his arc?
(re:lenght of creation days)
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#45. To: A K A Stone (#39)
In other words, the first 2 days were 24 hour days but just not measured by the sun. I have to call that an assumption. But stepping away from the Bible and looking at the geologic record, would God have made the earth look like it was 5 billion years old if it wasn't? Patience is one of God's virtues. I have no problem believing he may have taken his time.
Maybe the creation of sun and moon was to mark the day and night. Day and night already existed and just needed to be marked for mankinds benefit.
#46. To: Dakmar (#44)
Only French dinos need apply.. 
#47. To: Neil McIver (#45)
What suggests it looks 5 billion years old?
I have to call that an assumption. But stepping away from the Bible and looking at the geologic record, would God have made the earth look like it was 5 billion years old if it wasn't?
#48. To: Dakmar (#44)
I don't know how many species there are. He had all of them. Probably babies.
How many species of dinosaurs did Noah have on his arc?
#49. To: Zipporah (#46)
A pterodactyl would get fat eating nothing but French. Good thing they knew where to steal shopping carts.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#50. To: A K A Stone (#48)
You and Doug Henning, magic...I should have guessed.
He had all of them
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#51. To: Neil McIver (#34)
I should have read what you said more closely. Its not day 3 but 1. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
#52. To: Zipporah (#46)
damn, I was so hoping to get in the ground floor with my new personality:Only French dinos need apply..
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#53. To: Dakmar (#49)
I wonder if these are French dinos? A pterodactyl would get fat eating nothing but French. Good thing they knew where to steal shopping carts.
#54. To: Zipporah (#53)
Get your hands off me you damned dirty ape.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#55. To: Dakmar (#54)
I loved that movie Planet of the apes. The original.
Get your hands off me you damned dirty ape
#56. To: A K A Stone (#55)
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The RAPTOR is a three-piece exhibit consisting of a customized sport utility vehicle, F/A-22 Mini-Jet and trailer. The three components can function as a unit or as three stand-alone pieces. This mobile marketing tool reconnects the Air Force to the American public, promotes the Air Force Cross into the Blue recruiting campaign, and collects data on people interested in joining the Air Force.
Standing at more than 10 feet tall, Tech. Sgt. Ricky Recruiter makes an impact on anyone who sees him. He the tallest recruiter the Air Force has, and one of the most recognized. Since he specializes in special events and Air Force awareness, recruiters have requested his support for numerous events.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#57. To: christine, Zipporah, robin (#56)
halloo?
promotes the Air Force Cross into the Blue recruiting campaign
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#58. To: Dakmar (#54)
#59. To: Dakmar (#57)
halloo?
#60. To: Zipporah (#58)
go government, hooray
“RAPTOR SUV n trailer” – As part of the RAPTOR exhibit, the GMC Yukon and trailer outfit not only transport the exhibit, but they include their own features. The Yukon encloses a 42-inch plasma screen and CD, DVD, AM/FM and public address capabilities and is used to play the Air Force Recruiting Video and other media to potential Airmen.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#61. To: Zipporah (#59)
I think the CIA knows George Bush is corrupt, they're just waiting until 61.7387537% of the population is on the side of goodness and stuff.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#62. To: Dakmar (#60)
LOL.. yeah that'll work..
public address capabilities and is used to play the Air Force Recruiting Video and other media to potential Airmen.
#63. To: Catholic Church Posters (#40)
The ONLY good thing about the Catholic Church is their architecture and their collection of ancient artifacts... Aside from that, they ARE the dead church on the hill as described in the bible. Their leaders are EVIL as are their lies to their followers. They pray to saints, to Mary, and they CHARGE FOR GOD's GRACE... In other words, they are NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS according to the greatest book of fiction, the Bible... Even those of us who no longer believe in fairy tales can see that the Catholic Church IN PRACTICE is not following the rules laid down in the bible they pretend to believe in. Disclaimer: This description is NOT intended to describe my opinion of those who BELIEVE in the Catholic Church, but ONLY to describe those who LEAD the Catholic Church's hierachy... One only has to recall how the Catholic Church handled their pedophile priest problem... They protected EVIL at the expense of the INNOCENT...
Don't force feed me your views... talk to me so I can hear you...
#64. To: A K A Stone (#51)
Light was created on day 1, but when were the sun and moon created? Day 1 light was a different kind of Light.
I should have read what you said more closely. Its not day 3 but 1.
#65. To: Dakmar, Zipporah (#35)
After reading EWTN's history expert making excuses for burning heretics at the stake, your comment is really funny. But being an ex-catholic, it's also sad because I know Catholics who think the inquisition was justified.So you're saying you don't consider Catholics to be Christians? Wow, and all these idiots in the real world think intolerence was invented by Saddam...
#66. To: siagiah (#63)
I agree.
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