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Title: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design
Source:
Yahoo News
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051118/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_evolution
Published: Nov 18, 2005
Author: Nicole Winfield
Post Date: 2005-11-18 16:58:22 by Zipporah
Keywords: Intelligent, Official, Vatican
Views: 710
Comments: 66
VATICAN CITY - The Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States. The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges. "Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science." His comments were in line with his previous statements on "intelligent design" — whose supporters hold that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power. Proponents of intelligent design are seeking to get public schools in the United States to teach it as part of the science curriculum. Critics say intelligent design is merely creationism — a literal reading of the Bible's story of creation — camouflaged in scientific language, and they say it does not belong in science curriculum. In a June article in the British Catholic magazine The Tablet, Coyne reaffirmed God's role in creation, but said science explains the history of the universe. "If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe as a watch that ticks along regularly." Rather, he argued, God should be seen more as an encouraging parent. "God in his infinite freedom continuously creates a world that reflects that freedom at all levels of the evolutionary process to greater and greater complexity," he wrote. "He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves." The Vatican Observatory, which Coyne heads, is one of the oldest astronomical research institutions in the world. It is based in the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo south of Rome. Last week, Pope Benedict XVI waded indirectly into the evolution debate by saying the universe was made by an "intelligent project" and criticizing those who in the name of science say its creation was without direction or order. Questions about the Vatican's position on evolution were raised in July by Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn. In a New York Times column, Schoenborn seemed to back intelligent design and dismissed a 1996 statement by Pope John Paul II that evolution was "more than just a hypothesis." Schoenborn said the late pope's statement was "rather vague and unimportant."
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#1. To: Zipporah (#0)
Intelligent design and creationism aren't the same thing for starters. I know the catholic church would deny creationism as well. This is a church that changed the 10 commandments. This is a church that has graven images as part of its worship. This is a church where its leader the pope sits on a thrown like he is some kind of god. The catholic church is not the same as Bible believing christians.
I didnt say it was.. and 2ndly how did the Catholic church change the 10 commandments?
Excuse me? Read a Catechism lately? The Catholic Church is the Church that gave so-called Bible Believing Christians the Bible in the first place. Or rather, they stole it and forgot to thank Rome for such a grand gift. Luther simply saw fit to edit it to fit their whims. So-called Bible-Believing Christians need to brush up on their history because they don't seem to know any of it.
The catholics took out the part about graven images. Suits them since they use graven images. They also broke one of the other commandments into two parts, i forget which one.
The Catholic Church is the Church that gave so-called Bible Believing Christians the Bible in the first place. Or rather, they stole it and forgot to thank Rome for such a grand gift. Luther simply saw fit to edit it to fit their whims. So-called Bible-Believing Christians need to brush up on their history because they don't seem to know any of it. See above post. Also the catholics pray to mary, which is forbidden. The catholics have perverted scripture.
I dont think they took it out.. They dont see the use of statues as graven images.. but rather as symbols of Godly things.. just as the Greek or Russian Orthodox church does.. now individuals may see it differently.. St. Thomas Aquinas: '[The holy Synod commands] that images of Christ, the Virgin Mother of God, and other saints are to be held and kept especially in churches, that due honor and reverence (debitum honorem et venerationem) are to be paid to them, not that any divinity or power is thought to be in them for the sake of which they may be worshipped, or that anything can be asked of them, or that any trust may be put in images, as was done by the heathen who put their trust in their idols, but because the honor shown to them is referred to the prototypes which they represent... [W]e adore Christ and honor the saints whose likeness they bear... (Denzinger, no. 986).'" Veneration of Images. (Emphasis added.)
Get out your bible, im sur you have one. Then read the catholic 10 commandments. They took it out. They are not the church of christ. Im not saying every catholic will go to hell either.
The good "Doctor", He was a brilliant man....
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Albert Einstein
What the hell is the "holy synod" its not the bible. Further proof the catholic church isn't a christian church. They made up their own rules that they say supercede the bible.
http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/10commandments.html
I never claimed it was.. the Holy Synod was more or a less a meeting to discuss religious issues.. and I posted what was said about statues etc.. that they aren't worshiped by Roman Catholics.. basically what is said repudiates that belief.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. I disagree with that statement that they aren't worshipped by catholics. Not sure if it was your opinion or you were just stating what the catholics point was.
What Im saying is.. that officially Roman Catholics do not view statues and paintings etc as having any power or any diety.. just as Christians have crosses in churches.. they are a representation.. BUT there are some Roman Catholics that on an individual basis that DO go beyond that.. basically that is what Im saying.
They aren't. Some history may be in order here to educate the unwashed :-) Back in classical times and through the dark ages, the literacy rate was close to 0%. The masses could neither read nor write. How were they to be taught what was in the Bible when producing them by hand (there were no printing presses available back then) was prohibitive? They used pictures. And lo, the churches and cathedrals of Europe were adorned with stained glass windows and statues and friezes which told the stories - and the people could recognize them. As for your golden calf analogy, perhaps you should re-read that section of your Bible. There was nothing wrong with *making* the Golden Calf, only what they did with it. They worshipped the idol as a god. No Catholic does that. If making any image was verboten, then photography and art would also be verboten as would taking a picture of a cave per your statement. As for saints and praying to them, that is part of the Communion of Saints, which is actually quite Biblical. Perhaps you should look into that.
Wrong answer. Look up the Communion of Saints. There is nothing forbidden about asking someone to pray for you, which is all that praying to Mary is for. If asking someone to pray for you is forbidden, then every church in the world has a problem. Check this link for details. If it was good enough for St. Paul, its good enough for the rest of us, and that makes it quite Biblical, thank you.
First everyone that is saved is a saint. They are not asking for someone to pray for them. They are praying to the dead. Mary isn't a god.
You obviously don't know anything about Catholicism other than some propoganda that some uneducated person gave you. Catholics don't pray to Mary as they would to God. They ask Mary to pray for them, to intercede for them. Its the same as asking your neighbor to pray for you. Take it from someone who has been "with it" since he was born: That's how it works and wherever you're getting your information from needs a refresher course in how things *actually* are.
Take it from someone who has been "with it" since he was born: That's how it works and wherever you're getting your information from needs a refresher course in how things *actually* are. Trying to communicate with the dead is occult. I also noticed pictures of the pope with an upside down cross. Catholicism is a cult.
Your sentence is saying that they do pray to mary, just in a different fashion. Praying to the dead. Cultish.
Whatever you want to think. One can equally make a "cultish" comment about people who don't want to look into how things actually work, but throwing insults will get us nowhere. The fact is, they ask Mary to pray for them. That's how it works. It is no different than asking your neighbor to pray for you. St. Paul set the example. Check your Bible for details, since you value what it has to say.
I was raised Catholic but no longer consider myself catholic. I personally have a lot of problems with the catholic church/faith. Sure there are valid questions about history and origins of the Bible et al, but I don't believe any institution of man holds the keys to eternal life. Considering the Catholic Church as "holy" or similar because of it's historical origins is dangerous territory. Doing things out of habit in vain repetition is not something I think God wants from us, and the Catholic Church basically considers it's traditions to be as sacred as the Bible. (That from my Catholic University professor, at least). Here in Ecuador, Mary is given so much attention it really bothers me. Paintings and statues here give her a bigger halo or crown than Jesus has. It's mind boggling to me that would be so, since even given Catholic theology, Mary couldn't possibly be more special than Jesus. I don't buy it, and while asking others for prayer is fine, asking Mary or others who have died to intercede for you in silent meditation doesn't cut it for me, and further cuts too close to idolotry. There is only One true intercessor and that's Jesus himself. The whole point of His coming here was to be like us. Why go elsewhere when He's all you need?
So praying to a dead person is no different then asking your neighbor to pray for you. I can't believe you actually believe that.
There's a lot of history in there that very few people look into, Neil. Part of the grand veneration for Mary comes from the fact that the Pagans who were in-process of being converted to Christianity had a thing for a mother-figure. In order to bring them into the Christian Church in the early days (we're talking pre-Bible here, somewhere in the 1st to 4th Centuries) the early Christian church let it slide and found, in St. Paul's letters, evidence to support the practice. As time goes on, things take on a life of their own. Some time ago, I did some looking into the origins of St. Christopher and found there is no historical basis for that story. The Vatican even removed the feast day because of that. Yet, early Christians carved his likeness into doors, onto bridges, etc. There were a lot of compromises - and a lot of forgeries - made back "in the beginning" for expediency's sake. If you read Tertullian, Origen, et al, you'll find a lot of compromises were made by the early church. Once Constantine got involved, it got a lot worse with the "Donation of Constantine" and the divine right of kings and whatnot. Anyhow, that's an extremely quick summation of the actual history. Looking into the actual historical papers and origins has been a hobby of mine for a couple of years now. Its quite an eye-opener. There were (way back when) more variants of Christianity than there are today. Looking into how those folks did things will blow your mind.
You said it much better then I.
If, as the Bible says, the saints are with you always, what's the difference unless you don't trust what the Bible has to say :)
BTW, I have a very good friend who's whole family condemns evolution and subscribes to creationism. A few friends actually. I've listened to a lot of arguments on Christian radio that support so-called intelligent design, but most of them I've found kinda shallow. Also, it seems to me the core argument in favor of ID is that evolution can't explain this or that, the inference apparently being that if it wasn't evolution it MUST therefore be ID. But that's not a scientific approach to arguing in favor of ID. It's merely circumstancial. It's not important to me HOW God made the universe. In fact as a programmer myself it's easy to be impressed with the Master Programmer who created all merely authoring it's laws of physics and pressing the Start button 15 billion years ago. To me, if that's how it happened, that's really, really awesome. Creationists don't question the scientific claim as to the size of the universe, do they? If not, Why shouldn't the universe be as old as it is huge? I fear some creationists are erring by basing their faith not in God, but ironically, in science in attempting to argue *how* life came to be. In the christian realm, it's not important *How* God did it, is it?
If the Bible is the word of God as it says it is. Then you can count back to the creation beginning. It was thousands of years ago. God himself said in Genesis 2v4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, It says right there that is when he created them. If you compromise and accept billions of years as some christians do. And buy into all that evolution stuff then you have to say that their was death and dying prior to adam and eve. God said there was no death before sin. So if you accept the Bible as to what it claims to be then you have to believe in a young earth. How can it be any other way?
I too was raised catholic...Irish Catholic. There are many reasons I left the catholic church, the worship of Mary being just one. A persons faith depends on their relationship with Christ not some dogma past down through generations. The doctrine of papal infallibility...of him sitting on the seat of Christ here on earth can be found nowhere in the bible. That being said I know many fine catholic folk who love Christ and have dedicated their lives to Him and His service. I will say this, I have always loved the catholic form of worship. There is a...how can I say it....a reverence in their mass that I find lacking in many protestant assemblies.
I'm sure the history of the church is a facinating subject and you apparently know more than me about it. I've certainly heard my share of alleged tidbits of info on how heathen icons have made their home in contemporary christianity. Christmas coinciding nearly with the winter solstice, Easter being the name of a Roman god of fertility, which is where the easter bunny came from, along with the easter egg, the connection being "rebirth" with "ressurection". I've heard it alleged that when Constintine officially recognized christianity, all he really did was rename the god Hera to Mary. The practice of decorating trees with silver and gold is litterally condemned in the old testament too. All that aside, in terms of what "real" christianity is, however, I'd say it's nothing that any church, catholic or otherwise, can hold with or without all the above. It's much more personal than that, and if your relationship with God is not personal, it's not real. Period.
I was raised catholic as well but left the church of my own accord when I turned 13. It was a place in which I never felt comfortable. I remember even being repelled by the smells of the santuary and other rooms of the building. Never was it a place in which I felt warmth or love. In fact, what I felt was a cultist, almost sinister atmosphere.
I always kinda liked the smell of incense burning in the church I attended as a tad.
That's where I have gotten to as well. "Real" Christianity, to me, at least, is less about rules and regulations [Pharisees, anyone?] and more about the basic virtues that it is supposed to teach. Enslaving yourself to any group or any thing isn't what its about. A religious experience is just that - deep and personal - and it isn't something you can find anywhere but inside yourself. My *personal* take on the Bible is that it is a great source of inspiration, but not to be taken verbatim or literally. Historically, that bears out since there is no such thing as an "original" manuscript and no two manuscripts that survive agree. It also bears out Biblically because St. Paul only made the claim that it was inspired and that it is useful. If you have an interest in how the early church ran and how the Bible was corrupted (and continues to be corrupted by people with an agenda) then Bart Ehrman's series of books may interest you. In particular, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture and Lost Scriptures: Books that didn't make it into the New Testament are absolutely fascinating. The Lost Christianities offers a look into the immense variety of different flavors of Christianity that popped up starting in the first century and some insight into the battles for Orthodoxy that stamped them out and stampeded everyone into the Catholic Church.
#2. To: A K A Stone (#1)
Intelligent design and creationism aren't the same thing for starters. I know the catholic church would deny creationism as well. This is a church that changed the 10 commandments. This is a church that has graven images as part of its worship. This is a church where its leader the pope sits on a thrown like he is some kind of god. The catholic church is not the same as Bible believing christians.
#3. To: A K A Stone (#1)
The catholic church is not the same as Bible believing christians.
#4. To: Zipporah (#2)
#5. To: mirage (#3)
Excuse me? Read a Catechism lately?
#6. To: A K A Stone (#4)
The catholics took out the part about graven images. Suits them since they use graven images. They also broke one of the other commandments into two parts, i forget which one.
#7. To: Zipporah (#6)
I dont think they took it out
#8. To: Zipporah (#6)
St. Thomas Aquinas:
#9. To: Zipporah (#6)
'[The holy Synod commands]
#10. To: A K A Stone (#7)
#11. To: A K A Stone (#9)
#12. To: Zipporah (#11)
that they aren't worshiped by Roman Catholics.. basically what is said repudiates that belief.
#13. To: A K A Stone (#12)
I disagree with that statement that they aren't worshipped by catholics. Not sure if it was your opinion or you were just stating what the catholics point was.
#14. To: A K A Stone (#12)
I disagree with that statement that they aren't worshipped by catholics.
#15. To: A K A Stone (#5)
Also the catholics pray to mary, which is forbidden. The catholics have perverted scripture.
#16. To: mirage (#15)
Wrong answer. Look up the Communion of Saints. There is nothing forbidden about asking someone to pray for you, which is all that praying to Mary is for. If asking someone to pray for you is forbidden, then every church in the world has a problem.
#17. To: A K A Stone (#16)
First everyone that is saved is a saint. They are not asking for someone to pray for them. They are praying to the dead. Mary isn't a god.
#18. To: mirage (#17)
Catholics don't pray to Mary as they would to God. They ask Mary to pray for them, to intercede for them. Its the same as asking your neighbor to pray for you.
#19. To: mirage (#17)
Catholics don't pray to Mary as they would to God.
#20. To: A K A Stone (#19)
Your sentence is saying that they do pray to mary, just in a different fashion. Praying to the dead. Cultish.
#21. To: Zipporah, mirage, A K A Stone (#0)
#22. To: mirage (#20)
The fact is, they ask Mary to pray for them. That's how it works. It is no different than asking your neighbor to pray for you. St. Paul set the example. Check your Bible for details, since you value what it has to say.
#23. To: Neil McIver (#21)
#24. To: Neil McIver (#21)
#25. To: A K A Stone (#22)
So praying to a dead person is no different then asking your neighbor to pray for you.
#26. To: Zipporah (#0)
#27. To: Neil McIver (#26)
#28. To: Neil McIver (#21)
#29. To: mirage (#23)
#30. To: Neil McIver (#21)
#31. To: christine (#30)
I remember even being repelled by the smells of the santuary and other rooms of the building.
#32. To: Neil McIver (#29)
All that aside, in terms of what "real" christianity is, however, I'd say it's nothing that any church, catholic or otherwise, can hold with or without all the above. It's much more personal than that, and if your relationship with God is not personal, it's not real. Period.
#33. To: Neil McIver (#21)
But they've got such impressive achitecture...
Considering the Catholic Church as "holy" or similar because of it's historical origins is dangerous territory.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#34. To: A K A Stone (#27)
If you accept the Bible as the literal Word of God, then yes, you must also accept the age of the universe as some 6000 years. Consequently, if you believe the universe is some 15 billion years old, you must accept something in Genesis as at minimum, less than literal. An in depth debate is more than I have time for at the moment, but in reading Genesis if you start reading from, I think, chapter 2 verse 4, you'll find that it reads as though it's a brand new story of creation. It's as though chapter 1 and the first 3 verses of chapter 2 are a complete story of creation, and verse 4 begins another version, much as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are different versions of the Gospel. But why is it like that? I don't know, though some argue it is evidence of two ancient stories placed back to back when both are found pleasing. Taking a scientific view, Genesis says the world was created in 6 days, and yet the sun and moon weren't created until day 3. That being the case, by what measure of "day" were the first 2 days of creation, when there was not yet any sun or moon? How can time be scientifically measured in days without the sun? Do those first 2 days really have to be a 24 hour days? Is physical death the same as spiritual death? Whatever the state of creation prior to Adam and Eve, I can accept it was indeed pleasing to God.
If the Bible is the word of God as it says it is. Then you can count back to the creation beginning. It was thousands of years ago. God himself said in
And buy into all that evolution stuff then you have to say that their was death and dying prior to adam and eve. God said there was no death before sin.
#35. To: Zipporah (#13)
So you're saying you don't consider Catholics to be Christians? Wow, and all these idiots in the real world think intolerence was invented by Saddam... Go to Denmark, you Melvins hater!
What Im saying is.. that officially Roman Catholics do not view statues and paintings etc as having any power or any diety.. just as Christians have crosses in churches..
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#36. To: Wrench (#28)
My mother feels the same way, but I've never felt that myself. As a kid, going to Mass was a chore and nothing more. The only exception I can think of was when I was 18 in basic training for the US Army. Sunday mornings at catholic church perhaps gave me some badly needed connection to my past life. Yes bible-based church services have a very different atmosphere.
I will say this, I have always loved the catholic form of worship. There is a...how can I say it....a reverence in their mass that I find lacking in many protestant assemblies.
#37. To: Neil McIver, A K A Stone (#34)
How long is a day in dog God years? Human years? Human years measured by dogs?
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#38. To: Neil McIver (#34)
I think chapter 1 and 2 fit hand in hand. Chapter 1 gives an overview (fist part of chapter 2 also). Then chapter 2 goes back over it and gives some more details.
I think, chapter 2 verse 4, you'll find that it reads as though it's a brand new story of creation. It's as though chapter 1 and the first 3 verses of chapter 2 are a complete story of creation, and verse 4 begins another version
#39. To: Neil McIver (#34)
Maybe the creation of sun and moon was to mark the day and night. Day and night already existed and just needed to be marked for mankinds benefit.
Taking a scientific view, Genesis says the world was created in 6 days, and yet the sun and moon weren't created until day 3. That being the case, by what measure of "day" were the first 2 days of creation, when there was not yet any sun or moon?
#40. To: Dakmar (#33)
Here in Quito, Ecuador there's an absolutely enormous cathedral. It's been under construction for 100 years and I'm told is about 80% done.
But they've got such impressive achitecture...
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