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Title: US army accidentally killed civilians
Source: Reuters
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/ts_nm/iraq_baquba_dc
Published: Nov 21, 2005
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2005-11-21 08:59:30 by Flintlock
Keywords: accidentally, civilians, killed
Views: 474
Comments: 8

BAQUBA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. troops opened fire on a crowded minivan north of Baghdad on Monday, fearing a car bomb attack, and killed at least three members of the same family, including a child, the U.S. military and survivors said.

~snip~

Click for Full Text!

Poster Comment:

"They are all children. They are not terrorists," shouted a relative. "Look at the children," he said as a morgue official carried a small dead child into a refrigeration room.

USA Scores another 3 points.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 8.

#3. To: Flintlock (#0)

General Odom's List

1)Argument: Withdrawal would incite civil war.

Odom: Civil war is already happening.

2) Argument:World would not support withdrawal.

Odom: The world would rally behind withdrawal.

3) Argument: Withdrawal emboldens insurgency.

Odom: Occupation emboldens insurgency far more than withdrawal would.

4) Argument: Withdrawal would create a terrorist haven.

Odom: Iraq is worse than a haven now, it's a training ground for terrorists.

5) Argument: Withdrawal invites Iranian influence.

Odom: Occupation has already increases Iranian influence.

6) Argument: Withdrawal would spread unrest to other nations.

Odom: Staying would cause the same unrest.

7) Argument: Withdrawal would cause more Sunni/Shiite clashes.

Odom: More clashes will be prompted if we stay.

8) Argument: The Iraqi military will be unprepared if we leave now.

Odom: Disloyalty by the Iraqi military is the reason they are not prepared.

9) Argument: Withdrawal dishonors the troops there now and those who have died or been wounded.

Odom: Many troops already question the war.

robin  posted on  2005-11-21   9:09:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

3) Argument: Withdrawal emboldens insurgency.

Odom: Occupation emboldens insurgency far more than withdrawal would.

I've never understood #3 very much. Who cares if they're emboldened? Even if they are, if we're not in Iraq, what's it matter? Iraqi insurgents probably aren't going to be able to follow our troops into the US. I remember reading GEN Odom's article in the past, and there's very little more that can be said, besides that he's right.

I'm curious why the Army is admitting that they shot up a van full of people at this point. It's not like this is the first time it's happened, I remember in 2003 a Bradley shot up a van full of people.

historian1944  posted on  2005-11-21   9:20:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm curious why the Army is admitting that they shot up a van full of people at this point. It's not like this is the first time it's happened, I remember in 2003 a Bradley shot up a van full of people.

Maybe a reporter witnessed this incident, so the Pentagon had no choice but to be open about it.

How many reporters and photographers have been killed thus far, 61+?

robin  posted on  2005-11-21   9:24:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm not sure the exact number of reporters killed in Iraq, but it's been significant. I've often thought about that aspect of the information war. One of the problems that the Russians had in Chechnya during both phases (1994- 1996 and 1999-present) was control of information. The information supplied by the Chechens was eagerly lapped up and broadcast, while the Russians had problems getting their side out (and believed.) The benefit we have is that the Western press loved to broadcast all sorts of things on behalf of the Chechens, while no one in the US is going to be actively broadcasting things regularly gleaned from Al-Arabiyya or Al-Jazeera.

I've read a bit about how many problems that caused, and potential strategies for information control, what the Chechens did, and how, if future enemies of ours did it, what we could do about it. We've done a spectacular job of that in Afghanistan (does anyone know what's going on there, or that it's getting much, much more dangerous?), but Iraq has been much more spotty. Probably the easiest way to control the information is to embed the reporters, that way you keep the reporter where you want them to be, and absolutely forbid them from wandering off. If you allow the security situation to be so bad that they cannot leave their safe areas (like the Green Zone) that helps, and if you amplify their perception of danger by emphasizing and upselling the deaths of their comrades you can also dissuade them looking to verify the information you are giving them. One of the most spectacular information control failures was the video of that Marine shooting the wounded guy. The officers in charge of controlling that info should have been sacked immediately, because that footage should never have seen the light of day if they were doing their jobs.

historian1944  posted on  2005-11-21   9:57:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

This is from August.

Report: More journalists killed in Iraq than Vietnam

You could be correct about controlling the embeds. Judith Miller was an embed in Iraq, I wonder how typical she was.

robin  posted on  2005-11-21   10:06:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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