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Title: A Letter From The Special Forces Community Concerning The Second Amendment
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Feb 2, 2013
Author: SF Community
Post Date: 2013-02-02 11:46:40 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 268
Comments: 27

A Letter From The Special Forces Community Concerning The Second Amendment

Posted on January 29, 2013 by Bulldog1

I received this letter from members of the SOF community on their concerns for America and the Second Amendment. This letter was signed by over 1100 members of the SOF community, of which the names will not be published as this is Active and Retired members.

Whether you agree with it or not, it is well worth the read.

Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned

We are current or former Army Reserve, National Guard, and active duty US Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets). We have all taken an oath to “…support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.…” The Constitution of the United States is without a doubt the single greatest document in the history of mankind, codifying the fundamental principle of governmental power and authority being derived from and granted through the consent of the governed. Our Constitution established a system of governance that preserves, protects, and holds sacrosanct the individual rights and primacy of the governed as well as providing for the explicit protection of the governed from governmental tyranny and/or oppression. We have witnessed the insidious and iniquitous effects of tyranny and oppression on people all over the world. We and our forebears have embodied and personified our organizational motto, De Oppresso Liber [To Free the Oppressed], for more than a half century as we have fought, shed blood, and died in the pursuit of freedom for the oppressed.

Like you, we are also loving and caring fathers and grandfathers. Like you, we have been stunned, horrified, and angered by the tragedies of Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Fort Hood, and Sandy Hook; and like you, we are searching for solutions to the problem of gun-related crimes in our society. Many of us are educators in our second careers and have a special interest to find a solution to this problem. However, unlike much of the current vox populi reactions to this tragedy, we offer a different perspective.

First, we need to set the record straight on a few things. The current debate is over so-called “assault weapons” and high capacity magazines. The terms “assault weapon” and “assault rifle” are often confused. According to Bruce H. Kobayashi and Joseph E. Olson, writing in the Stanford Law and Policy Review, “Prior to 1989, the term ‘assault weapon’ did not exist in the lexicon of firearms. It is a political term [underline added for emphasis], developed by anti-gun publicists to expand the category of assault rifles.”

The M4A1 carbine is a U.S. military service rifle – it is an assault rifle. The AR-15 is not an assault rifle. The “AR” in its name does not stand for “Assault Rifle” – it is the designation from the first two letters of the manufacturer’s name – ArmaLite Corporation. The AR-15 is designed so that it cosmetically looks like the M4A1 carbine assault rifle, but it is impossible to configure the AR-15 to be a fully automatic assault rifle. It is a single shot semi-automatic rifle that can fire between 45 and 60 rounds per minute depending on the skill of the operator. The M4A1 can fire up to 950 rounds per minute. In 1986, the federal government banned the import or manufacture of new fully automatic firearms for sale to civilians. Therefore, the sale of assault rifles are already banned or heavily restricted!

The second part of the current debate is over “high capacity magazines” capable of holding more than 10 rounds in the magazine. As experts in military weapons of all types, it is our considered opinion that reducing magazine capacity from 30 rounds to 10 rounds will only require an additional 6 -8 seconds to change two empty 10 round magazines with full magazines. Would an increase of 6 –8 seconds make any real difference to the outcome in a mass shooting incident? In our opinion it would not. Outlawing such “high capacity magazines” would, however, outlaw a class of firearms that are “in common use”. As such this would be in contravention to the opinion expressed by the U.S. Supreme Court recent decisions.

Moreover, when the Federal Assault Weapons Ban became law in 1994, manufacturers began retooling to produce firearms and magazines that were compliant. One of those ban-compliant firearms was the Hi-Point 995, which was sold with ten-round magazines. In 1999, five years into the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, the Columbine High School massacre occurred. One of the perpetrators, Eric Harris, was armed with a Hi-Point 995. Undeterred by the ten-round capacity of his magazines, Harris simply brought more of them: thirteen magazines would be found in the massacre’s aftermath. Harris fired 96 rounds before killing himself.

Now that we have those facts straight, in our opinion, it is too easy to conclude that the problem is guns and that the solution to the problem is more and stricter gun control laws. For politicians, it is politically expedient to take that position and pass more gun control laws and then claim to constituents that they have done the right thing in the interest of protecting our children. Who can argue with that? Of course we all want to find a solution. But, is the problem really guns? Would increasing gun regulation solve the problem? Did we outlaw cars to combat drunk driving?

What can we learn from experiences with this issue elsewhere? We cite the experience in Great Britain. Despite the absence of a “gun culture”, Great Britain, with one-fifth the population of the U.S., has experienced mass shootings that are eerily similar to those we have experienced in recent years. In 1987 a lone gunman killed 18 people in Hungerford. What followed was the Firearms Act of 1988 making registration mandatory and banning semi-automatic guns and pump-action shotguns. Despite this ban, on March 13, 1996 a disturbed 43-year old former scout leader, Thomas Hamilton, murdered 16 school children aged five and six and a teacher at a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland. Within a year and a half the Firearms Act was amended to ban all private ownership of hand guns. After both shootings there were amnesty periods resulting in the surrender of thousands of firearms and ammunition. Despite having the toughest gun control laws in the world, gun related crimes increased in 2003 by 35% over the previous year with firearms used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the preceding 12 months. Gun related homicides were up 32% over the same period. Overall, gun related crime had increased 65% since the Dunblane massacre and implementation of the toughest gun control laws in the developed world. In contrast, in 2009 (5 years after the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired) total firearm related homicides in the U.S. declined by 9% from the 2005 high (Source: “FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Master File, Table 310, Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009”).

Are there unintended consequences to stricter gun control laws and the politically expedient path that we have started down?

In a recent op-ed piece in the San Francisco Chronicle, Brett Joshpe stated that “Gun advocates will be hard-pressed to explain why the average American citizen needs an assault weapon with a high-capacity magazine other than for recreational purposes.”We agree with Kevin D. Williamson (National Review Online, December 28, 2012): “The problem with this argument is that there is no legitimate exception to the Second Amendment right that excludes military-style weapons, because military-style weapons are precisely what the Second Amendment guarantees our right to keep and bear.”

“The purpose of the Second Amendment is to secure our ability to oppose enemies foreign and domestic, a guarantee against disorder and tyranny. Consider the words of Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story”: ‘The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.’

The Second Amendment has been ruled to specifically extend to firearms “in common use” by the military by the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in U.S. v Miller (1939). In Printz v U.S. (1997) Justice Thomas wrote: “In Miller we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen’s right to possess a sawed-off shot gun because that weapon had not been shown to be “ordinary military equipment” that could “could contribute to the common defense”.

A citizen’s right to keep and bear arms for personal defense unconnected with service in a militia has been reaffirmed in the U.S. Supreme Court decision (District of Columbia, et al. v Heller, 2008). The Court Justice Scalia wrote in the majority opinion: “The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.“. Justice Scalia went on to define a militia as “… comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense ….” “The Anti-Federalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.” he explained.

On September 13, 1994, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban went into effect. A Washington Post editorial published two days later was candid about the ban’s real purpose:“[N]o one should have any illusions about what was accomplished [by the ban]. Assault weapons play a part in only a small percentage of crime. The provision is mainly symbolic; its virtue will be if it turns out to be, as hoped, a stepping stone to broader gun control.”

In a challenge to the authority of the Federal government to require State and Local Law Enforcement to enforce Federal Law (Printz v United States) the U.S. Supreme Court rendered a decision in 1997. For the majority opinion Justice Scalia wrote: “…. this Court never has sanctioned explicitly a federal command to the States to promulgate and enforce laws and regulations When we were at last confronted squarely with a federal statute that unambiguously required the States to enact or administer a federal regulatory program, our decision should have come as no surprise….. It is an essential attribute of the States’ retained sovereignty that they remain independent and autonomous within their proper sphere of authority.”

So why should non-gun owners, a majority of Americans, care about maintaining the 2nd Amendment right for citizens to bear arms of any kind?

The answer is “The Battle of Athens, TN”. The Cantrell family had controlled the economy and politics of McMinn County, Tennessee since the 1930s. Paul Cantrell had been Sheriff from 1936 -1940 and in 1942 was elected to the State Senate. His chief deputy, Paul Mansfield, was subsequently elected to two terms as Sheriff. In 1946 returning WWII veterans put up a popular candidate for Sheriff. On August 1 Sheriff Mansfield and 200 “deputies” stormed the post office polling place to take control of the ballot boxes wounding an objecting observer in the process. The veterans bearing military style weapons, laid siege to the Sheriff’s office demanding return of the ballot boxes for public counting of the votes as prescribed in Tennessee law. After exchange of gun fire and blowing open the locked doors, the veterans secured the ballot boxes thereby protecting the integrity of the election. And this is precisely why all Americans should be concerned about protecting all of our right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment!

Throughout history, disarming the populace has always preceded tyrants’ accession of power. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao all disarmed their citizens prior to installing their murderous regimes. At the beginning of our own nation’s revolution, one of the first moves made by the British government was an attempt to disarm our citizens. When our Founding Fathers ensured that the 2nd Amendment was made a part of our Constitution, they were not just wasting ink. They were acting to ensure our present security was never forcibly endangered by tyrants, foreign or domestic.

If there is a staggering legal precedent to protect our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms and if stricter gun control laws are not likely to reduce gun related crime, why are we having this debate? Other than making us and our elected representatives feel better because we think that we are doing something to protect our children, these actions will have no effect and will only provide us with a false sense of security.

So, what do we believe will be effective? First, it is important that we recognize that this is not a gun control problem; it is a complex sociological problem. No single course of action will solve the problem. Therefore, it is our recommendation that a series of diverse steps be undertaken, the implementation of which will require patience and diligence to realize an effect. These are as follows:

1. First and foremost we support our Second Amendment right in that “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

2. We support State and Local School Boards in their efforts to establish security protocols in whatever manner and form that they deem necessary and adequate. One of the great strengths of our Republic is that State and Local governments can be creative in solving problems. Things that work can be shared. Our point is that no one knows what will work and there is no one single solution, so let’s allow the State and Local governments with the input of the citizens to make the decisions. Most recently the Cleburne Independent School District will become the first district in North Texas to consider allowing some teachers to carry concealed guns. We do not opine as to the appropriateness of this decision, but we do support their right to make this decision for themselves.

3. We recommend that Assisted Outpatient Treatment (AOT) laws be passed in every State. AOT is formerly known as Involuntary Outpatient Commitment (IOC) and allows the courts to order certain individuals with mental disorders to comply with treatment while living in the community. In each of the mass shooting incidents the perpetrator was mentally unstable. We also believe that people who have been adjudicated as incompetent should be simultaneously examined to determine whether they should be allowed the right to retain/purchase firearms.

4. We support the return of firearm safety programs to schools along the lines of the successful “Eddie the Eagle” program, which can be taught in schools by Peace Officers or other trained professionals.

5. Recent social psychology research clearly indicates that there is a direct relationship between gratuitously violent movies/video games and desensitization to real violence and increased aggressive behavior particularly in children and young adults (See Nicholas L. Carnagey, et al. 2007. “The effect of video game violence on physiological desensitization to real-life violence” and the references therein. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 43:489-496). Therefore, we strongly recommend that gratuitous violence in movies and video games be discouraged. War and war-like behavior should not be glorified. Hollywood and video game producers are exploiting something they know nothing about. General Sherman famously said “War is Hell!” Leave war to the Professionals. War is not a game and should not be “sold” as entertainment to our children.

6. We support repeal of the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it obviously isn’t working. It is our opinion that “Gun-Free Zones” anywhere are too tempting of an environment for the mentally disturbed individual to inflict their brand of horror with little fear of interference. While governmental and non-governmental organizations, businesses, and individuals should be free to implement a Gun-Free Zone if they so choose, they should also assume Tort liability for that decision.

7. We believe that border states should take responsibility for implementation of border control laws to prevent illegal shipments of firearms and drugs. Drugs have been illegal in this country for a long, long time yet the Federal Government manages to seize only an estimated 10% of this contraband at our borders. Given this dismal performance record that is misguided and inept (“Fast and Furious”), we believe that border States will be far more competent at this mission.

8. This is our country, these are our rights. We believe that it is time that we take personal responsibility for our choices and actions rather than abdicate that responsibility to someone else under the illusion that we have done something that will make us all safer. We have a responsibility to stand by our principles and act in accordance with them. Our children are watching and they will follow the example we set.

The undersigned Quiet Professionals hereby humbly stand ever present, ever ready, and ever vigilant.

1100 Green Berets Signed this Letter

We have a list of all their names and unlike any MSM outlets we can confirm that over 1100 Green Berets did sign. The list includes Special Forces Major Generals & Special Forces Command Sergeants Major down to the lowest ranking “Green Beret”.

The letter stands for itself.

Read it and send it everywhere.

http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40772


Poster Comment:

Long article but worth reading.

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#1. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

Perfectly stated - thanks.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2013-02-02   12:18:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Lod (#1)

I thought it was very well written. And it's good to know that folks are speaking out against this gun grabbing scheme and telling people what "assault weapons" are and are not.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-02   12:22:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: James Deffenbach (#2)

I've come to believe that there are no assault weapons (as used in common parlance today); there are only assault people who use whatever tool is at hand to harm others.

The number of these tools is endless, from bare hands to nukes and everything in-between.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2013-02-02   12:34:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

For politicians, it is politically expedient to take that position and pass more gun control laws and then claim to constituents that they have done the right thing in the interest of protecting our children. Who can argue with that? Of course we all want to find a solution. But, is the problem really guns? Would increasing gun regulation solve the problem? Did we outlaw cars to combat drunk driving?

The most indiscriminate murderer on planet earth is GOVERNMENT, let's ban it.

We should all be livid. Stop acting like docile, mentally castrated pussies and grow a pair. It's time to get in their face. Why should we speak in hushed tones and act all polite when we are being raped every day?

noone222  posted on  2013-02-02   12:36:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Lod (#3)

I've come to believe that there are no assault weapons (as used in common parlance today); there are only assault people who use whatever tool is at hand to harm others.

The number of these tools is endless, from bare hands to nukes and everything in-between.

More people are killed every year with hammers and other blunt objects than with any kind of rifle, at least here in the US.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-02   12:53:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: noone222 (#4)

The most indiscriminate murderer on planet earth is GOVERNMENT, let's ban it.

No argument from me.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-02   12:54:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Lod (#3)

I've come to believe that there are no assault weapons (as used in common parlance today); there are only assault people who use whatever tool is at hand to harm others.

Dang, that's good !

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." Lod

Bub  posted on  2013-02-02   13:40:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: noone222 (#4)

The most indiscriminate murderer on planet earth is GOVERNMENT, let's ban it.

Dang, that's good !

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." Lod

Bub  posted on  2013-02-02   13:42:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: James Deffenbach (#5)

More people are killed every year with hammers and other blunt objects than with any kind of rifle, at least here in the US.

Dang, that's good ! (and beverage alcohol annually kills far more folks in the U.S. than do guns or any other objects).

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." Lod

Bub  posted on  2013-02-02   13:46:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Bub (#9)

According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.

This is an interesting fact, particularly amid the Democrats' feverish push to ban many different rifles, ostensibly to keep us safe of course.

However, it appears the zeal of Sens. like Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joe Manchin (D-WV) is misdirected. For in looking at the FBI numbers from 2005 to 2011, the number of murders by hammers and clubs consistently exceeds the number of murders committed with a rifle.

Think about it: In 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605. In 2006, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 438, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 618.

And so the list goes, with the actual numbers changing somewhat from year to year, yet the fact that more people are killed with blunt objects each year remains constant.

For example, in 2011, there was 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs.

While the FBI makes is clear that some of the "murder by rifle" numbers could be adjusted up slightly, when you take into account murders with non-categorized types of guns, it does not change the fact that their annual reports consistently show more lives are taken each year with these blunt objects than are taken with Feinstein's dreaded rifle.

Another interesting fact: According to the FBI, nearly twice as many people are killed by hands and fists each year than are killed by murderers who use rifles.

The bottom line: A rifle ban is as illogical as it is unconstitutional. We face far greater danger from individuals armed with carpenters' tools and a caveman's stick.

And it seems fairly obvious that if more people had a gun, less people would be inclined to try to hit them in the head with a hammer.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-02   13:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: James Deffenbach (#10)

This is an interesting fact, particularly amid the Democrats' feverish push to ban many different rifles, ostensibly to keep us safe of course.

Right you are. The anti-gunners are NOT interested in facts because they are not concerned about murders or the numbers of murders. The anti-gun hierarchy is dedicated to confiscation only to facilitate their not-so-hidden agenda. I toss in the beverage alcohol statistic only to show that numbers of deaths are not a concern of the anti- gunners; otherwise, they'd campaign against booze - though that's doubtful.....

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." Lod

Bub  posted on  2013-02-02   16:07:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Bub (#11)

I toss in the beverage alcohol statistic only to show that numbers of deaths are not a concern of the anti- gunners; otherwise, they'd campaign against booze - though that's doubtful.....

Since they blame the object(s) for what should really be blamed on the individual, why don't they try to ban cars because of all the people killed every year by other people driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs? It makes as much sense as banning guns because of the way some people misuse them.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-02   16:35:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: James Deffenbach (#12)

why don't they try to ban cars because of all the people killed every year by other people driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs? It makes as much sense as banning guns because of the way some people misuse them.

Their response:

1. "Cars are necessary for daily commerce, guns are not necessary for anything except the police and the military."

2. "Banning booze was tried once and didn't work."

"The 'uniter' has brought the entire world together - to despise and deride us." Lod

Bub  posted on  2013-02-02   17:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Bub (#13)

2. "Banning booze was tried once and didn't work."

When they banned booze - the guns came out - and they had to re-think things just as they will if they attempt to ban guns.

We should all be livid. Stop acting like docile, mentally castrated pussies and grow a pair. It's time to get in their face. Why should we speak in hushed tones and act all polite when we are being raped every day?

noone222  posted on  2013-02-03   6:35:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

6. We support repeal of the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it obviously isn’t working. It is our opinion that “Gun-Free Zones” anywhere are too tempting of an environment for the mentally disturbed individual to inflict their brand of horror with little fear of interference. While governmental and non-governmental organizations, businesses, and individuals should be free to implement a Gun-Free Zone if they so choose, they should also assume Tort liability for that decision.

More on the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 at 4um Title: GUN-FREE ZONES ACT: MYTH VS. REALITY

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-02-03   16:38:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Bub (#13)

1. "Cars are necessary for daily commerce, guns are not necessary for anything except the police and the military."

2. "Banning booze was tried once and didn't work."

1. If you take away the guns from the cops and the military there will be fewer murders.

2. Banning guns won't work either. Criminals are notorious for not paying any attention to things like gun laws and bans.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-03   19:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GreyLmist (#15)

Thanks. I agree, anywhere they make a gun free zone they should have LOTS of insurance to pay out to people who gets shot there. Money to the family if it's a death and money to the victim if they are injured. I imagine we would see lots fewer gun free zones/killing fields.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-03   19:13:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: James Deffenbach, All (#17)

Thanks. I agree, anywhere they make a gun free zone they should have LOTS of insurance to pay out to people who gets shot there. Money to the family if it's a death and money to the victim if they are injured. I imagine we would see lots fewer gun free zones/killing fields.

You're welcome and I agree with your statements above. While I'm here, I'd like to post the excerpts below regarding Militias as the Common Defense (ref. the Preamble of our Constitution and throughout). Americans need to throw off the Militia stigmatizings since the Clinton era and resume their Constitutional duties as guardians of our Republic with dignity and honor.

The Second Amendment has been ruled to specifically extend to firearms “in common use” by the military by the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in U.S. v Miller (1939). In Printz v U.S. (1997) Justice Thomas wrote: “In Miller we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen’s right to possess a sawed-off shot gun because that weapon had not been shown to be “ordinary military equipment” that could “could contribute to the common defense”.

A citizen’s right to keep and bear arms for personal defense unconnected with service in a militia has been reaffirmed in the U.S. Supreme Court decision (District of Columbia, et al. v Heller, 2008). The Court Justice Scalia wrote in the majority opinion: “The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.“. Justice Scalia went on to define a militia as “… comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense ….” “The Anti-Federalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.” he explained.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-02-04   11:55:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: GreyLmist (#18)

“In Miller we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen’s right to possess a sawed-off shot gun because that weapon had not been shown to be “ordinary military equipment” that could “could contribute to the common defense”

If they had had any actual testimony from military people they would not have made such a stupid statement. Sawed-off shotguns had indeed been used as "ordinary military equipment." And if they would deign to "allow" the sheeple the same firepower as any soldier has available to him then why would they rule against ordinary people having machine guns? And now lots of nitwits are trying to have even semi automatics banned. The ignorance of most of the people in this country is unbelievable.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-04   12:15:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: James Deffenbach (#19)

“In Miller we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen’s right to possess a sawed-off shot gun because that weapon had not been shown to be “ordinary military equipment” that could “could contribute to the common defense”

If they had had any actual testimony from military people they would not have made such a stupid statement. Sawed-off shotguns had indeed been used as "ordinary military equipment." And if they would deign to "allow" the sheeple the same firepower as any soldier has available to him then why would they rule against ordinary people having machine guns? And now lots of nitwits are trying to have even semi automatics banned. The ignorance of most of the people in this country is unbelievable.

I almost didn't include that section about their Miller decision with the rest of the excerpts. Glad to have learned more about it from your post. Good question too.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-02-04   14:22:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: GreyLmist (#20)

Despite the well-known effectiveness of shotguns for certain situations, the first procurement of shotguns specifically for combat use by the U.S. military did not occur until the dawn of the 20th century. Circa 1900, the U.S. Army purchased an estimated 200 Winchester Model of 1897 slide-action repeating shotguns for use in the on-going pacification campaigns in the Philippine Islands following the Spanish-American War of 1898. There was a clear need for an arm to help battle the fierce Moro tribesmen, who were exacting a deadly toll on American troops in close-quarters combat. It was recognized that a short-barreled, 12-ga. shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot was the most formidable tool available for such applications. These sawed off shotguns soon proved their mettle and were used with notable effectiveness in the Philippines. (emphasis added)

When the United States entered World War I in the spring of 1917, General John Pershing and the U.S. Army General Staff were determined not to repeat the same mistakes that were made by both sides during the previous three years of the war. As stated in an American Rifleman article published after the war: "When the A.E.F. began to take over portions of the front lines it brought with it General Pershing's predetermined decision to break up the enemy's use of its trenches as take-off points for such assaults, to destroy such attacking shock troops as they came on, and so to compel the open-ground warfare for which Europeans had little liking but which was wholly in the character of the American spirit and in which it was foreseen the latter would give an extremely effective account of themselves."

The new tactics that were to be employed by the American Doughboys required new arms. Many of the senior officers of the American Expeditionary Force (AEF), including Gen. Pershing, had previously served in the Philippines and had first-hand knowledge of the effectiveness of the shotgun. It was soon recognized that they possessed much potential for both offensive and defensive trench warfare. The U.S. Army Ordnance Department was ordered to evaluate which shotgun would best suit the needs of the American troops deploying to France. The consensus was that the Winchester Model 1897 would be the logical choice. The Model 1897, later designated the M97, was a reliable gun that had been around for some 20 years and had acquitted itself well in the Philippines.

As increasing numbers of the trench guns began to be deployed to the front-line trenches, their effectiveness became apparent. There were numerous references to the efficiency of the shotguns. A post-war American Rifleman article contained the following statement regarding a U.S. Army officer: "His men had one good chance with them (shotguns) at a German mass assault upon his trench — a charge obviously intended to overwhelm the defenders with its solid rush of men. (They) let them come on; and when those shotguns got going — with nine .34 caliber buckshot per load, 6 loads in the gun, 200-odd men firing, plenty more shells at hand — the front ranks of the assault simply piled up on top of one awful heap of buckshot-drilled men."

A Fearsome Arm


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-04   14:38:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: GreyLmist (#20)

I almost didn't include that section about their Miller decision with the rest of the excerpts. Glad to have learned more about it from your post. Good question too.

Thank you.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-04   14:43:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: James Deffenbach (#21)

That was interesting. The Supreme Court should study it. :)

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-02-04   15:01:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: James Deffenbach, shooters, 4 (#21)

An 1897 (produced 1897-1957) was my 14th birthday present.

I've since added two more to keep it company.

When the slide is racked, it makes a sound like no other.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2013-02-04   15:14:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: GreyLmist (#23)

That was interesting. The Supreme Court should study it. :)

They should study a lot of things that they haven't shown any inclination to study. Like the very simple phrase "shall not be infringed." That would be a good place for them to begin their studies.


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-04   17:07:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Lod (#24)

An 1897 (produced 1897-1957) was my 14th birthday present.

Sweet!


"It is the habit of unhappiness to rewrite our lives and from a different beginning come to a different ending. We cling to the past and what it could have been; what we wanted, or thought we wanted, before we were taught by a broken heart that our own good intentions have little effect on the way things are."
D. W. Buffa, Breach of Trust

James Deffenbach  posted on  2013-02-04   17:08:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: James Deffenbach (#25)

That was interesting. The Supreme Court should study it. :)

They should study a lot of things that they haven't shown any inclination to study. Like the very simple phrase "shall not be infringed." That would be a good place for them to begin their studies.

Yes indeed.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-02-05   13:13:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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