4um: Attention 4um participants

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Title: Attention 4um participants
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Published: May 22, 2013
Author: Christine
Post Date: 2013-05-22 13:39:19 by christine
Ping List: *4um Admin News* Subscribe to *4um Admin News*
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Views: 1904
Comments: 103

As most of you know, I haven't had the time to participate in or monitor 4um as I once did. That's not going to change. I will not be able to read every post every day. Truthfully, when I created this forum, it was never my intention to be a heavy handed administrator and it was always my hope that participants appreciate that, respect it, and, thereby, exercise self control.
For the most part, that has been the case--until lately.
The animosity and incivility and accusations displayed towards one another has become almost intolerable to me. It's caused me to feel ashamed that I am the owner of this forum. I am actually considering pulling the plug as I cannot see any value in letting this continue.
I would like to know your thoughts and opinions. Subscribe to *4um Admin News*
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#63. To: Lod (#62)
Christine is NOT going to let this go away.
If she doesn't want to pay the registration fee, I will.

If it truly comes to this Lod, we will help with the costs. I'm sure others will as well.

SilverStorm posted on 2013-05-22 22:49:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#64. To: christine (#0)
Eventually, someone will bring pressure to bear on you, and they'll demand email addresses, names, et al.
That is how close the hour is.
Pull the plug if you can't cope. we're all going to be seeing an end to freedom soon, and in all honesty we should be focusing on the issues in the physical world. the cyber world is full of sunshine patriots. The real ones, are done with the virtual.
I don't post much anymore. I don't believe we have much time left.
"Call Me Ishmael" -Ishmael, A character from the book "Moby Dick" 1851. "Call Me Fishmeal" -Osama Bin Laden, A character created by the CIA, and the world's Hide And Seek Champion 2001-2011. -Tommythemadartist
TommyTheMadArtist posted on 2013-05-22 23:07:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#65. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#64)
None of us have much time left no matter what the elite do. We are all going to die regardless eventually, I would rather die fighting than cowering in fear.
God is always good!
RickyJ posted on 2013-05-22 23:47:04 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#66. To: christine (#61)
that was funny. :P

Funny, it was meant to be serious, sorta.
When I have problems and can't figure out what to do about them, I just opt to do nothing and let God figure it out for me. He generally does a better job than me. :)
Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit, because he doesn't come over your property and break your windows. - Dave Hebel Black Denim Jackets and Vests
Critter posted on 2013-05-22 23:48:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#67. To: christine (#0)
You dont need a moderator. if people dont like the insane dreadful constant bickering between certain posters, just ignore them all. thats what the ignore button is for. problem solved. although i also think that your remarks to the offenders to 'knock it off' help.

Really, there is something wrong with people who get so worked up over their percieved 'enemies' on a silly internet forum. i thought this was a place to read news and share insights.
"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28
Artisan posted on 2013-05-22 23:59:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#68. To: TommyTheMadArtist, all (#64)
I don't post much anymore. I don't believe we have much time left.

interesting perspective.

I believe we have plenty of time left and in 10 years the 4um will still be here and so will we., unless people die from illness, accidents, etc.

ive been hearing about this gloom and doom crap for decades and life still goes on everyday. people go to work, date, raise their families, earn their living. this will continue as usual.
when i was a kid my dad told me a good saying., work and plan as if youll live forever, live and pray as if youll die tomorrow. i think that good advice still stands.
"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28
Artisan posted on 2013-05-23 0:04:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#69. To: Critter, christine, all (#66)
When I have problems and can't figure out what to do about them, I just opt to do nothing and let God figure it out for me. He generally does a better job than me. :)

Wise and very effective :)
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers" ~ Thomas Pynchon Gravity's Rainbow

wudidiz posted on 2013-05-23 0:27:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#70. To: Pinguinite (#22)
What's the truth

Truth is reality as proven by various tests and accepted by most. A belief is acceptance without proof in the context of one's experiences. To know is a notch above to believe.
As to Christine's general question members can do much of a mod's work by simply ignoring uncivil behavior, not posting any reply. Some boards deal with bad behavior with "Report Abuse."

Tatarewicz posted on 2013-05-23 0:35:17 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#71. To: Pinguinite (#22)
things like disbanding the EPA and absolutely no business regulation keep TONS of people away

personal integrity is hard to come by sometimes.

It's just not a substitute for having a big reunion somewhere where we all get to see what we all look like, in person, face to face, where most of us would be much more cordial.

maybe but not necessarily.
A study group recently released its findings as to the best presidents of the United States of America.
Obama has been rated as the 4th best president ever:
Reagan and 9 others tied for first, 15 presidents tied for second, 18 tied for third, and Obama came in fourth.
farmfriend posted on 2013-05-23 1:49:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#72. To: Tatarewicz (#70)
members can do much of a mod's work by simply ignoring uncivil behavior, not posting any reply

That works.
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers" ~ Thomas Pynchon Gravity's Rainbow

wudidiz posted on 2013-05-23 2:00:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#73. To: farmfriend (#71) (Edited)
It's just not a substitute for having a big reunion somewhere where we all get to see what we all look like, in person, face to face, where most of us would be much more cordial.
maybe but not necessarily.

Oh, I am almost always a gentleman - in public. ;-)
Although I do subscribe to Oscar Wilde's observation: "A gentleman is never unintentionally rude."
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-05-23 2:06:00 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#74. To: christine, Lod, Esso (#61)
I agree with Esso, Lod would make a very good moderator. Sometimes the only solution with a real troll is banning. Sure the bozo filter and ignore thread are great for posters to ignore them, but they don't work for lurkers to ignore them. I think that is the main reason for any trolls here, to keep most lurkers from reading this forum and learning something.
God is always good!
RickyJ posted on 2013-05-23 2:14:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#75. To: RickyJ (#74)
Astute observation. I also think that is why 4um does not always show up in Search Engine results.
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-05-23 2:18:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#76. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#64)
I don't post much anymore. I don't believe we have much time left.

Nor do I. In fact I think this recent rash of shit is just the first phase. The second phase won't be any more pleasant. What wonders we may see by july...
______________________________________
Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) (It's a more positive message)
titorite posted on 2013-05-23 2:41:59 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#77. To: titorite, TommyTheMadArtist (#76)
I agree that they have gone more uptempo, but I also think that is fear that too many people are beginning to wake up. At this point it still remains a race against time. However, I think that the scales are beginning to shift ever so slightly. We are not out of the woods, but there are a few rays of light. Psychotics are brittle. They will keep coming at you, and coming at you, but a few defeats and they shatter. So, I am very guardedly optimistic that we may yet avoid the fall of darkness.
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-05-23 2:51:17 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#78. To: christine (#0)
4um, smorum pull the plug already. All this information just hurts my head. I could use some help up here with the cows, goats, hogs and the dogs. (You might want to leave them cats behind, for their own safety)
On second thought maybe I should sell some of the livestock and become a moderator!!! If you want me to I could moderate the HELL out of these SOB's, by the time I'd get done with'em there'd be nobody left around here.
What's base pay for moderating these days?
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
Hmmmmm posted on 2013-05-23 2:55:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#79. To: RickyJ, christine, Lod, Esso (#74)
I agree with Esso, Lod would make a very good moderator. Sometimes the only solution with a real troll is banning. Sure the bozo filter and ignore thread are great for posters to ignore them, but they don't work for lurkers to ignore them. I think that is the main reason for any trolls here, to keep most lurkers from reading this forum and learning something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah.
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers" ~ Thomas Pynchon Gravity's Rainbow

wudidiz posted on 2013-05-23 2:58:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#80. To: RickyJ (#74)
I think that is the main reason for any trolls here, to keep most lurkers from reading this forum and learning something.

As it has always been. Silence those who have inconvenient things to say, and make anyone trying to pull things into perspective appear to be the villain.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
FormerLurker posted on 2013-05-23 3:08:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#81. To: christine (#0)
I'm thinking that this site has a better traffic rank compared to FreeRepublic or Libertypost. You might want also want to read the reviews about those two sites here too. http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/freedom4um.com

purplerose posted on 2013-05-23 3:21:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#82. To: purplerose, christine (#81)
I think forum gets a lot of visits from people who want to know what the analysis is here and not necessarily because they are fond of us. We have, by and large, a pretty sharp crew. Not that we're always right but we have some good ferrets.
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-05-23 3:47:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#83. To: Original_Intent, Hmmmm (#82)
It helps to repost articles from here to else where with proper attribution.

Thats What I do.
I get all sorts of awesome news and stories here and repost them at the serveral other sites I visit... In fact I think that is how Hmmmm found this spot if I am not mistaken. From stfu411.
______________________________________
Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) (It's a more positive message)
titorite posted on 2013-05-23 3:54:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#84. To: christine, Shoonra, Be A Chooser (#0) (Edited)
4um is the only free speech site I know of that truly offers a non-judgmental, non-censoring stage for differing opinions.
For example I would not have normally come across a left wing ideologue like Shoonra.
Though I do not agree with him/her, I like the fact that I could dialogue with him/her without having either of us being banished to cyber space for expressing an opinion that's not in keeping with a steel fist moderator.
Free speech on 4um is a rare and wonderful gift you provide, christine.
Trolls are trying to disrupt normal discourse. Please don't let them discourage you.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-05-23 4:03:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#85. To: titorite (#83)
Cool. Anything which makes intelligent people want to come here is a good thing. The more, the merrier.
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-05-23 4:16:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#86. To: titorite (#83)
I think that is how Hmmmm found this spot if I am not mistaken.

Well actually it was a PM from chrissy on day 1, but keep spreading the news.
Mom told me "You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar" she also explained to me that when a real smart guy, like me, gets into a heated argument with a moron it's sometimes hard for a bystander to tell which is which. She's a gentle genius, but I love her.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
Hmmmmm posted on 2013-05-23 11:06:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#87. To: Hmmmmm (#78)
On second thought maybe I should sell some of the livestock and become a moderator!!! If you want me to I could moderate the HELL out of these SOB's, by the time I'd get done with'em there'd be nobody left around here.

hahahahahahaa!!!

christine posted on 2013-05-23 11:24:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#88. To: christine (#87)
hahahahahahaa!!!

You know all I live for is to put a smile on your face!
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
Hmmmmm posted on 2013-05-23 11:30:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#89. To: scrapper2 (#84)
Free speech on 4um is a rare and wonderful gift you provide, christine.

And it certainly attracts one of a kind people to this forum. We're in rare form here.

purplerose posted on 2013-05-23 14:04:16 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#90. To: Artisan (#68)
work and plan as if you'll live forever, live and pray as if you'll die tomorrow.

Same here, amen.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Lod posted on 2013-05-23 17:15:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#91. To: RickyJ (#74)
Thanks for the compliment, but after my banning at FR for questioning the chimperor's non-guarding of our borders, especially the southern one; I really, really, really, dislike moderated forums.
We should be mature enough, kind enough, wise enough, and thoughtful enough individuals to show common courtesy when talking(?) to each other here.
Shouldn't we?
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Lod posted on 2013-05-23 17:24:02 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#92. To: Hmmmmm (#78)
funny - thanks
I believe that mods work for free, in training for DHS employment.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Lod posted on 2013-05-23 17:26:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#93. To: purplerose (#81)
Freedom4um.com's three-month global Alexa traffic rank is 361,612. Visitors to it spend approximately 45 seconds on each pageview and a total of sixteen minutes on the site during each visit.

This has to be bogus - how can you view a page in 45 seconds or just stay for 16 minutes?
That's nuts.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Lod posted on 2013-05-23 17:39:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#94. To: RickyJ, christine, Lod, Esso, Original_Intent (#74)
I agree with Esso, Lod would make a very good moderator.

I disagree, though it pains me to do so. Lod is too nice a guy and the stress would not be good for his health.
A study group recently released its findings as to the best presidents of the United States of America.
Obama has been rated as the 4th best president ever:
Reagan and 9 others tied for first, 15 presidents tied for second, 18 tied for third, and Obama came in fourth.
farmfriend posted on 2013-05-23 20:41:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#95. To: farmfriend (#94)
Lod is too nice a guy and the stress would not be good for his health.

I've decided to run him for president instead. Posts 39-43
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)

Esso posted on 2013-05-23 20:49:01 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#96. To: Esso (#95)
I've decided to run him for president instead.

ah so you are trying to kill him off outright then.
A study group recently released its findings as to the best presidents of the United States of America.
Obama has been rated as the 4th best president ever:
Reagan and 9 others tied for first, 15 presidents tied for second, 18 tied for third, and Obama came in fourth.
farmfriend posted on 2013-05-23 20:56:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#97. To: farmfriend (#96)
so you are trying to kill him off outright then.

Well, not exactly, but I picked a damn good VP just-in-case. :)
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)

Esso posted on 2013-05-23 21:01:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#98. To: Lod (#93)
This has to be bogus - how can you view a page in 45 seconds or just stay for 16 minutes?

Perhaps not so much posters but lurkers.

purplerose posted on 2013-05-24 0:10:07 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#99. To: Esso (#97)
LOL
A study group recently released its findings as to the best presidents of the United States of America.
Obama has been rated as the 4th best president ever:
Reagan and 9 others tied for first, 15 presidents tied for second, 18 tied for third, and Obama came in fourth.
farmfriend posted on 2013-05-24 0:31:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#100. To: christine (#0)
Christine - nobody ever said that providing the opportunity for the truth to be told would be easy and free from antagonism from those who oppose truth. Could it be possible that this site has drawn the attention from those who either support the evil govt or are part of that govt and they are doing this hoping that you might become so discouraged that you no longer willing to operate this forum? When idiots and morons get on here and pull the crap they do it is not a reflection on you, it reflects their immaturity, hatefulness and mental illness. Don't let these sociopaths discourage you. Your site is one of the best on the web and I have recommended to many others including some on facebook. The choice for those looking for such a site is between Freedom4um and others like Freepers and the "You Can't Post Here Unless You Blindly Support Satan Worshipping Ashkenazim" LP site.

bush_is_a_moonie posted on 2013-05-26 1:21:28 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#101. To: Hmmmmm (#78)
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”
Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”
Zionist reliance on Anti-Semitism to further their goals continues to this day. Studies of immigration records reflect increased immigration to the Zionist state during times of increased anti-Semitism. Without a continued inflow of Jewish immigrants to the state of "Israel", it is estimated that within a decade the Jewish population of the Zionist state will become the minority.
In order to maintain a Jewish majority in the state of "Israel", its leaders promote anti-Semitism throughout the world to "encourage" Jews to leave their homelands and seek "refuge".
Most people are not aware that in March, 1933, when Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Garden and called for an American boycott of German goods.
On March 24, 1933, the London Daily Express published an article announcing that the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and described a forthcoming "holy war". The Express urged Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and demonstrate against German economic interests.
The Express said that Germany was "now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry....In London, New York, Paris and Warsaw, Jewish businessmen are united to go on an economic crusade."
The article went on, "worldwide preparations are being made to organize protest demonstrations."
On March 27, 1933 the planned protest at Madison Square Garden was attended by 40,000 protestors (New York Daily News headlines: "40,000 Roar Protest Here Against Hitler").
Similar rallies and protest marches were also held in other cities. The intensity of the Jewish campaign against Germany was such that the Hitler government vowed that if the campaign did not stop there would be a one-day boycott in Germany of Jewish-owned stores.
Hitler's March 28, 1933 speech ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods was in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.
That same spring of 1933 there began a period of private cooperation between the German government and the Zionist movement in Germany and worldwide to increase the flow of German-Jewish immigrants and capital to Palestine.
Growing anti-Semitism in Germany and by the German government in response to the boycott played into the hands of the Zionist leaders. Prior to the escalation of anti-Semitism as a result of the boycott the majority of German Jews had little sympathy for the Zionist cause of promoting the immigration of world Jewry to Palestine. Making the situation in Germany as uncomfortable for the Jews as possible, in cooperation with German National Socialism, was part of the Zionist plan to achieve their goal of populating Palestine with a Jewish majority.
www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism

bush_is_a_moonie posted on 2013-05-26 1:32:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#102. To: bush_is_a_moonie, Christine (#100)
Christine - nobody ever said that providing the opportunity for the truth to be told would be easy and free from antagonism from those who oppose truth. Could it be possible that this site has drawn the attention from those who either support the evil govt or are part of that govt and they are doing this hoping that you might become so discouraged that you no longer willing to operate this forum? When idiots and morons get on here and pull the crap they do it is not a reflection on you, it reflects their immaturity, hatefulness and mental illness. Don't let these sociopaths discourage you. Your site is one of the best on the web and I have recommended to many others including some on facebook. The choice for those looking for such a site is between Freedom4um and others like Freepers and the "You Can't Post Here Unless You Blindly Support Satan Worshipping Ashkenazim" LP site.

Yeah,
what he said
______________________________________
Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) (It's a more positive message)
titorite posted on 2013-05-26 5:43:02 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#103. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#101)
Growing anti-Semitism in Germany and by the German government in response to the boycott played into the hands of the Zionist leaders. Prior to the escalation of anti-Semitism as a result of the boycott the majority of German Jews had little sympathy for the Zionist cause of promoting the immigration of world Jewry to Palestine. Making the situation in Germany as uncomfortable for the Jews as possible, in cooperation with German National Socialism, was part of the Zionist plan to achieve their goal of populating Palestine with a Jewish majority.

This.
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic
X-15 posted on 2013-05-26 6:03:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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