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Religion
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Title: Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title)
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/dead-pa-babys ... -divine-healing-025704613.html
Published: May 25, 2013
Author: j
Post Date: 2013-05-25 07:58:50 by PSUSA2
Keywords: None
Views: 2268
Comments: 177

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care.

But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder.

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community.

"He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute.

"He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would."

The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said.

A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them.

"Throughout this country ... there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said.

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths.

In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son.

The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists.

Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care.

At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge.

"It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained.

But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance.

"I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over ... and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday.

That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year.

"These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer."

A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law."

Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said.

"They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said.

He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve."

But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said.

For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more.

Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 130.

#25. To: PSUSA2 (#0)

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine,

A dozen........that must be an epidemic.

6,700 die in automobiles. OUTLAW CHILDREN IN CARS!!!! 1,000 drown to death.......OUTLAW CHILDREN AND WATER!!!! 540 die the horrible death by fire.....OUTLAW ALL FIRE!!! 970 die of unintentional poisoning and 133 intentional is this close to an epidemic yet? 1260 die of unintentional suffocation and strangulation and 740 from intentional suffocation and strangulation. 138 from firearm accidents and 2200 firearm homicides and 680 firearm suicides.

Thousands more children die from the cure after SEEKING medical "expertise" than the dozen that die from not seeking it......do they matter?

Now for medicated children.....25 percent of children in the U.S. were on regular medication. 45 million children are on asthma medications, 24 million are on ADHD medications, almost 10 million are on antidepressants with another six and a half million on other antipsychotics. Then there are the antihypertensives, the sleep aids, the medications for Type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol, and on and on. 45 Million kids are popping pills and going to the doctor...aren't your relieved! Nothing to see here Looky Lou, keep your eye on the 12 that didn't get medical attention while 45 million keep popping pills that kill thousands under doctor supervision.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   12:58:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#25)

Thousands more children die from the cure after SEEKING medical "expertise" than the dozen that die from not seeking it......do they matter?

Really?

Don't look at the child mortality rates of the 1800's and early 1900's. You'll REALLY fly off the handle if you did that.

Those medicines (and vaccines lol) save kids lives.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   13:27:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: PSUSA2 (#32) (Edited)

Those medicines (and vaccines lol) save kids lives.

Look at the studies, most of the anti-psychotic medications "save" no more than placebos and are no more effective than placebos, which brings us full circle to "faith healing" in effectiveness. Give 'em to millions of children!

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   13:31:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: abraxas (#37)

Look at the studies, most of the anti-psychotic medications

I didn't say that was right, did I?

We're talking different kinds of medicines here.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   13:39:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: PSUSA2 (#43)

We're talking different kinds of medicines here.

Shit, 45 MILLION are medicated after seeking medical advice for everything from restless leg syndrome to bi-polar disorders......four bus loads of children are taken the he ER EVERYDAY for overdose, adverse reactions, poisoning.

That's 165 a day.....a bit more that a dozen a year and these kiddies are SEEKING medical attention. You do the math. The difference is that the dozen are faith in religion (gasp! Oh de humanity!) and the 45 million are faith in Big Pharma.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   13:46:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: abraxas (#48)

, 45 MILLION are medicated after seeking medical advice for everything from restless leg syndrome to bi-polar disorders......four bus loads of children are taken the he ER EVERYDAY for overdose, adverse reactions, poisoning.

That's 165 a day.....a bit more that a dozen a year and these kiddies are SEEKING medical attention. You do the math. The difference is that the dozen are faith in religion (gasp! Oh de humanity!) and the 45 million are faith in Big Pharma.

You throw numbers around like a gun control advocate would.

I know. If you had it Your Way, we'd all live forever. No one would die, no one would get sick, no one would get old, it would be a Pollyanna world, with hot naked willing women for all, sun shining and birds singing and blue skies forever.

Unfortunately, things don't work that way. People get sick, people die. But we can mitigate this to a certain degree. Your eeeeevilllll "big pharma" has done this.

Ask any doctor. There is always a risk with medicine, surgery, etc. This is not a risk-free world.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   13:58:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: PSUSA2 (#50)

f you had it Your Way, we'd all live forever. No one would die, no one would get sick, no one would get old, it would be a Pollyanna world, with hot naked willing women for all, sun shining and birds singing and blue skies forever.

Ask any doctor.

I would say as Shakespeare said, "We are born to die."

No thanks, I don't need a doctor to tell me that death is inevitable.

Apparently, doctors are your new Jesus.

Big Pharma hasn't mitigated death for the most part. Shit, they haven't CURED a fricken' thing....of course, they are not in the business to cure anybody as that would impact sales. THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS TO SELL DRUGS and business is good! To sell drugs, people must believe that they constantly NEED a pill for every frickin' thing. Create more ailments if necessary, but don't CURE anything.

America consumes 25% of all pharma drugs on the planet with only 5% of the population.....how's that working out for us? With all the "happy pills" getting popped we should be the happiest people on the planet....but no we are the most drug addicted and depressed.

The United States has the HIGHEST INFANT MORTALITY of all industrial nations. How's that working out for us? Don't you have an issue 11,300 babies dying within 24 hours of birth? Gee, if Big Pharma and doctors are so great why is the number increasing?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:12:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: abraxas (#53)

To sell drugs, people must believe that they constantly NEED a pill for every frickin' thing.

True.

This is abuse. It comes with money and political clout.

Ask your doctor if ____________________ is right for you.

Advertising like this should be illegal. In most countries, it is.

"The United States has the HIGHEST INFANT MORTALITY of all industrial nations"

FIRST DAY mortality.

-----------------------

...The problem in the U.S. is that many of the babies born here are premature. Miles said that means that most women, especially poor mothers, aren't getting enough access to medical care.

"We need to make sure particularly poor mothers get access to quality prenatal care and actually go to the doctor and go to the doctor on a regular basis," she said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57583237/u.s-has-highest-first-day-infant-mortality-out-of-industrialized-world-group-reports/

----------------------------------

How are the numbers broken down? By race? Drug abuse during pregnancy? It's not enough to just know how many died. We need to know why they died. Various groups are skewing the numbers here, most likely. So that might make it hard to find the real numbers, since it might not be politically correct.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:28:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: PSUSA2 (#57)

most women, especially poor mothers, aren't getting enough access to medical care.

If people don't go to the doctor because of religious belief and 12 children die in a year it's an epidemic. But, if poor mothers aren't getting medical care and 11,300 babies die it's acceptable?

You have heard of Medicaid? Every poor pregnant woman is eligible for prenatal care and delivery under Medicaid.

"Medicaid is a government sponsored health insurance program for low income families who have no medical insurance or inadequate insurance. All states offer Medicaid or a program similar to Medicaid to help pregnant women receive adequate prenatal and postpartum care. Medicaid also offers health insurance to seniors, children and people with disabilities."

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:37:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: abraxas (#60)

If people don't go to the doctor because of religious belief and 12 children die in a year it's an epidemic.

Who has used the word "epidemic", besides you? No one.

" You have heard of Medicaid? Every poor pregnant woman is eligible for prenatal care and delivery under Medicaid. "

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:49:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: PSUSA2 (#67)

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

Now you are adding in some other non supported reasoning about individual choices and concerns about the issue. Face it, access is not the mitigating factor in rising infant mortality in this nation.

Again, if big pharma and the doctors are so wonderful.....why is infant mortality increasing? It's 11,300 at last count and continues to rise. Access to care is actually INCREASING with more women on Medicare, not decreasing. Try again.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:54:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: abraxas (#70)

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

OK, bullshit proven. They have access, and I never disputed that fact. But you can't make anyone take advantage of that access. Right?

I know you have a hard time imagining this, but not everyone is as responsible as you. And NO, I do not mean that as an insult. I'm stating a fact. You blame doctors and "big pharma" for that. I don't. Not until it is proven that those poor women see the doctors in the first place.

If the first time a doctor sees a patient is in the delivery room, why blame him/her for the outcome?

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:08:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: PSUSA2 (#77)

You blame doctors and "big pharma" for that. I don't. Not until it is proven that those poor women see the doctors in the first place.

If the first time a doctor sees a patient is in the delivery room, why blame him/her for the outcome?

Again, it is a FACT that infant mortality is now at 11,300 per year and steadily INCREASING. No decrease in doctors or big pharma. Proven and substantiated increases in women getting medical care via Medicaid rolls, proving your argument moot.

There is no evidence to support your claim of first visit at delivery....none.

Sticking with just the facts......we have more drugs, more doctors, more medical care and MORE DEATHS. These are just the facts. Dispute them with facts if you like, but have you considered that the 25% of people consuming the drugs that are dispenses by the doctors and big pharma is actually a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN DEATHS in the same way it contributes to rise in SUICIDE, HOMICIDE, OVERDOSE, and death by DRUG INTERACTIONS?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:17:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: abraxas (#80)

Proven and substantiated increases in women getting medical care via Medicaid rolls, proving your argument moot.

No it doesn't.

Medicaid is expanding. OK. Show where it's expanding for prenatal care for poor women. But even that won't prove your case. You'd have to show that these 11,000+ dead babies were from women that took advantage of this care. I say it's much more likely that they never took advantage of this prenatal care.

"25% of people consuming the drugs that are dispenses by the doctors and big pharma is actually a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN DEATHS"

So, now they are mere "contributing factors"? How many other factors are there?

I thought "big pharma" was the "big cause" of all these deaths. Which is it?

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:31:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: PSUSA2 (#83)

Show where it's expanding for prenatal care for poor women.

Here is an abstract from one of hundreds of studies noting the increase of access and the benefits for poor women on Medicaid:

Abstract

OBJECTIVES: Over 80% of US states have implemented expansions in prenatal services for Medicaid-enrolled women, including case management, nutritional and psychosocial counseling, health education, and home visiting. This study evaluates the effect of Washington State's expansion of such services on prenatal care use and low-birthweight rates. METHODS: The change in prenatal care use and low-birthweight rates among Washington's Medicaid-enrolled pregnant women before and after initiation of expanded prenatal services was compared with the change in these outcomes in Colorado, a control state. RESULTS: The percentage of expected prenatal visits completed increased significantly, from 84% to 87%, in both states. Washington's low-birthweight rate decreased (7.1% to 6.4%, P = .12), while Colorado's rate increased slightly (10.4% to 10.6%, P = .74). Washington's improvement was largely due to decreases in low-birthweight rates for medically high-risk women (18.0% to 13.7%, P = .01, for adults; 22.5% to 11.5%, P = .03, for teenagers), especially those with preexisting medical conditions. CONCLUSIONS: A statewide Medicaid-sponsored support service and case management program was associated with a decrease in the low-birthweight rate of medically high-risk women.

I can keep posting these all day. Medicaid for pregnant women is and has been increasing substantially while the INFANT MORTALITY RATE INCREASES. Again, more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS. What part of the equation are you having difficulty comprehending today?

Read the full paper at the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1508570/

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:49:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: abraxas (#86)

I can keep posting these all day. Medicaid for pregnant women is and has been increasing substantially while the INFANT MORTALITY RATE INCREASES. Again, more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS. What part of the equation are you having difficulty comprehending today?

Again, you need to show that those 11,000 dead babies actually died when under a physicians prenatal care. You are assuming that is the case, and that doctors are being incompetent (or worse).

That medicaid is available for this care - no one disputes. That more money is being spent on this care- no one disputes.

Those deaths need to be a separate topic for study to find out why this is happening. Just saying that "more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS" proves nothing about what caused those deaths.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   16:02:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: PSUSA2 (#89)

Just saying that "more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS" proves nothing about what caused those deaths.

Not "just saying" but posting articles on the topic. Increase in infant mortality correlates with more prescription drug use and abuse. It's a fact. So data does indicate MORE DRUGS is actually causing MORE DEATH in all age groups, not just newborns.

More care is a fact but it is NOT DECREASING INFANT MORTALITY in the first 24 hours. Medicaid increases do show some improvement for the first year, but not the first 24 hours where the numbers are INCREASING.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   16:09:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: abraxas (#91)

Not "just saying" but posting articles on the topic. Increase in infant mortality correlates with more prescription drug use and abuse. It's a fact. So data does indicate MORE DRUGS is actually causing MORE DEATH in all age groups, not just newborns.

Yes, if you don't investigate what actually is responsible for the deaths and rely only on the increase in spending and the increase in prescriptions to make your case.

To prove the case, it has to be shown that these dead babies were under prenatal care and died anyway. Has that been shown? No, it hasn't. Just because this care was available does not mean it was taken advantage of. Do you want to argue that point?

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   16:43:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: PSUSA2 (#95)

what actually is responsible for the deaths and rely only on the increase in spending and the increase in prescriptions to make your case.

My case is that an increase in care, money and drugs is RESULTING in more deaths. Do you not understand that?

The question should be what is the solution? If more care, more money and more drugs is resulting in MORE DEATH, why do you support a continuation of very expensive failure that is leading to MORE, not less, deaths?

More money, more care, and more drugs is working in the wrong direction. Yet, it continues.... cui bono?

More people die of drug interactions than auto accidents in this nation every years.......more doctors prescribing more drugs for more money equals more death for all demographics. Again, who benefits?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   23:39:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: abraxas (#126)

more doctors prescribing more drugs for more money equals death

"Society" even forces drugs on your pets.

I had what I refer to as the "Animal Control Nazis" harassing me a few years ago.

They showed up, claiming my two elderly pet cats were sick and needed to go to the vet. They were not sick at that time. I was served with a notice to appear in court to prove I had complied with their order.

Anyway, I took 'em to the vet for their required checkups and required vaccinations.

They both became dehydrated within days of the shots, contracted the worst cases of diarrhea I ever saw, lost weight quickly and died within two months of the required vaccines.

If not for those "Animal Control Nazis" and the shots they ordered, my two elderly cats would still be alive and well.

sizzlerguy  posted on  2013-05-26   0:34:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 130.

#137. To: sizzlerguy (#130)

The government is seeping in every nook and cranny.....with a gaggle of idiots to cheer nanny state on. It's disgraceful.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26 09:35:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 130.

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