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Religion
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Title: Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title)
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/dead-pa-babys ... -divine-healing-025704613.html
Published: May 25, 2013
Author: j
Post Date: 2013-05-25 07:58:50 by PSUSA2
Keywords: None
Views: 2309
Comments: 177

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care.

But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder.

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community.

"He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute.

"He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would."

The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said.

A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them.

"Throughout this country ... there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said.

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths.

In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son.

The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists.

Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care.

At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge.

"It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained.

But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance.

"I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over ... and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday.

That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year.

"These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer."

A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law."

Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said.

"They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said.

He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve."

But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said.

For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more.

Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 176.

#1. To: All (#0)

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives

Where is your "jesus" now. Idiots.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   8:00:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: PSUSA2 (#1)

Where is your "jesus" now. Idiots.

Example TWO: Stated for no other pupose than to piss people on this 4um off and garner negative "affect".......and I have to ask: who benefits?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26   13:07:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: abraxas (#159)

Where is your "jesus" now. Idiots.

Example TWO: Stated for no other pupose than to piss people on this 4um off and garner negative "affect".......and I have to ask: who benefits?

Simple question, really.

Where's their jesus now? If that makes people angry, then they must know the answer to that question, right?

So, where is their jesus now? 2 kids died due to "his" incompetence, or maybe he was busy doing something else, or maybe it was all "gods' will" that these kids die. But if that was the case, the least "jesus" could do is put in an appearance and explain a few things. Maybe that was too much trouble?

OOPS! I don't want to piss people off. So I'll stop now. lol

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-26   13:32:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: PSUSA2 (#162)

If that makes people angry, then they must know the answer to that question, right?

You are skirting the issue again. What purpose does your statement have other than to be "viscous" and/or piss people on this 4um off and/or create a negative "affect" in stating it?

Who benefits from your question? Do you benefit from total disregard and respect for others on this 4um who do not share your newly minted beliefs? Do you benefit from negatively affecting others while you snivel others do this to you? Do you benefit from intentionally trying to piss others off?

Same with your title change......who benefits? What purpose is served?

You asked for examples and I have provided them......the least you could do is answer the questions directed toward you instead of ducking, weaving, and tossing red herrings. You aren't fooling anybody.

Are you a victim of your seething anger at Christianity that didn't meet your lofty exceptions? Is religion responsible for your "viscous" behavior or are you accountable for your own damn self?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26   13:43:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: abraxas (#164) (Edited)

What purpose does your statement have other than to be "viscous" and/or piss people on this 4um off and/or create a negative "affect" in stating it?

What makes it "vicious"?

Is it vicious to say that there is no santa claus or easter bunny? They are free to disagree. After all, I don't KNOW that there is no santa claus or easter bunny, or "jesus" for that matter, but I doubt their existence.

If they are so sure any of these characters exist, then nothing I can possibly say will change their minds. Their faith is strong and they are secure in their beliefs. They can comfort themselves with the belief that I am going to "hell", and they are going to "heaven".

Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-26   14:10:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: PSUSA2 (#167)

What makes it "vicious"?

Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other.

YOUR OWN ADMISSION! You described your actions as such. However, on a deeper and more honest level, it has to do with your INTENT which I have questioned you about over and over and over again while you duck and weave. We both know that your INTENT is to be disrespectful, to be rude, to be hateful, to anger others by your self describe "viscous" behavior. Again, WHO BENEFITS? Why is so important for you to try to piss others off? Because anger loves company?

Do you ever see beyond yourself? Ever? You continually blame others for your behavior.....it's religion to blame, it is their lack of faith to blame, it is the anger you feel. All about you.....all the time. Are you EVER responsible for your own actions? EVER? Here's a newsflash: You are NOT a victim of anything other than yourself. Religion doesn't make you angry, you choose to be angry.

You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL! Just because you lost your faith doesn't mean that others are doing the same because...gasp...they are angry when their lofty expectations are not met as demanded.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26   14:22:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: abraxas (#168)

You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL!

I must be pretty powerful to do that.

Or could you be twisting my words? Let's go back and see what I wrote.

Here it is again:

"Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. "

Please stop lying. It's not very ladylike.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-26   14:41:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: PSUSA2 (#169)

Please stop lying. It's not very ladylike.

Who is lying? Why do you avoid the intent questions? By your own words you are "viscous" to others, yet you skirt what your purpose in doing so is.

Again, what is your purpose in trying to piss people off for holding beliefs you used to hold that are now different from the beliefs you hold today? Who benefits?

I'm not twisting your words, simply attempting to get to the bottom of your intent and determine your purpose. Gee, what a shock that you attempt to play the "victim" card again. Religion makes you do it! Asking you your intent is "twisting your words" while you skirt all direct questions! Nobody buys your poor victim routine, but it is comical.

If not attempting to act as a catalyst to sway belief, to piss people off, to mock what you used to believe, to disrespect others, to be hateful...what is your intention? You asked for examples, I provided them. Now answer what is your intent? Who is responsible for your actions and your anger?

Your intent is to piss people off, you get the result you intend and then you say that "they are losing their faith" in response to your attempts to piss people off. Your cause and effect chain is faulty. What am I twisting in your reasoning that you believe you are a catalyst when you succeed in pissing people off and divert the anger you intended from yourself to their "failing" religious beliefs?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26   14:55:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: abraxas (#170)

You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL!

I must be pretty powerful to do that.

Or could you be twisting my words? Let's go back and see what I wrote.

Here it is again:

"Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. "

Please stop lying. It's not very ladylike.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-26   15:09:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: PSUSA2 (#171)

if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming.

They are losing their faith.

Again your words and your intention to piss people off. Why is it when you succeed "something is wrong with their religious programming"? Explain this correlation.

Again, your intention is to piss people off, so how is it that when you succeed "they are losing their faith"? Explain this correlation.

What makes you so all important that when you set out an intention to piss people off and succeed then your success proves that "something is wrong with their religious programming" and "they are losing their faith"? Explain the correlation in your own statements.

Your words......how are they twisted? Who is lying? lol

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26   15:17:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: abraxas (#172)

You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL!

"Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. "

I dont know how I could make it any more plain. Giving a partial quote is also as good as lying.

Nowhere did I even hint that this was due to my efforts. I'm just not that powerful. I'm flattered that you think I am, though.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-26   15:25:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: PSUSA2 (#173)

if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming

Why do you divert your intentions PSUSA? Are you opposed to honest analysis?

If, then......cause and effect statement. Let's break down the two components.

First, you admit that you make "viscous" statements and divert that your intention is to piss people off but we both know this is the truth of the matter.

So, let's move to the "if they are mad at me" after you INTENDED to piss them off with "viscous" commentary........do we have the if part right? Yes, we do.

Now for then, "something is wrong with their religious programming"....wow what an effect for your "if they are mad at me" after you intended to piss them off with your "viscous" statements. Explain how a person getting mad at your admitted "viscous" statements intending to piss them off equates to "something is wrong with their religious programming".

Simply explain your own cause and effect reasoning. It is YOUR self righteous if/then statement. I didn't write it. We have a problem with correlation that you continue to avoid.

How does getting mad at you after you spew "viscous" comments by your own admission and have the sole intention of pissing people off equate to "losing their faith"? I agree you are not that important, yet I am curious as to why you would make such an idiotic and self righteous if/then correlation.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-26   15:36:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: abraxas (#174)

"Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. "

What more can I say?

If there is anger at what one person has to say, then where is that anger coming from? It's just one persons opinion. It shouldn't matter what one person thinks.

If what I express as an opinion can be refuted, then refute it. Tell me how real "jesus" is, tell me what your pastor says, tell me what your bible says, whatever floats your boat.

There are Christians here. There are atheists here. There might even be more than 1 Satanist here. They are just as free to express their opinions as I am.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-26   15:47:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: PSUSA2 (#175)

If there is anger at what one person has to say, then where is that anger coming from?

You speak to piss people off and then question where the anger comes from? Why must the anger be connected to a person's religious beliefs rather than the person who shows blatant disrespect with admitted "viscous" comments? That makes no fricken' sense.

Again, you duck the issue but is comes down to your admitted "viscous" statements and your intention to piss people off. Who benefits?

You are NOT a victim. Nobody is asking you not to express anything or restrict your "freedom"--what is asked is that you have some respect for others and take responsibility for your admitted "viscous" statements.

Who benefits? The answer is: NOBODY BENEFITS--not you, not the 4um, not other posters.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-27   9:44:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 176.

#177. To: abraxas (#176)

Again, you duck the issue

About those 11,000 dead kids you mentioned, and then ducked.

Did they receive prenatal care?

You're trying to make this all about me. I dont have the power to make anyone angry. Their anger is their problem. Their happiness is their problem. Their emotions are their problem.

Now, did those 11000 dead babies get prenatal care? If you don't know, then say so. But if you don't know, why did you even mention them?

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-27 09:58:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 176.

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